Chicks in Control - An approach that might stop binging and keep you in control? Perhaps




diamondgeog
02-07-2014, 12:27 PM
These last 9 months have been life altering for me. I've exceeded my wildest weight loss goals and gotten in the best shape of my life. At 48. I am eating less and much less hungry. No pills, no gimmicks, no diets. But good help on the internet including 3FC and good science.

Consider the following. People aren't 'fat' because they are hungry. They are hungry because they are 'fat'.

When many of us start having a lot of carbs, fast food, junk food, processed food. We alter our chemistry. We reduce the ability of our bodies to access stored fat but get better at storing it. We are hungry all the time because our bodies are just storing machines and even when we do cut calories our bodies are very bad at accessing our stored fat. So it is hard and we can't just loose like that other person.

But there is hope. I cut out all the above foods and especially wheat and pasta. It was hard, very, for the first 3-4 days, and then hard for 3-4 weeks. But I was tired of being always unhealthy and hungry.

And when I went low carb higher fat it has been unbelievable to me. I stuck with it because I was so much less hungry. I didn't crave the old food and exercise was easier. It wasn't nearly as hard as before because I was using science, not conventional science but what people believed before 1970, and instead working with science.

And I know my chemistry is fundamentally different because I do have an occasional big carb Mexican meal and my body reacts completely differently. Before I would have been hungry in 2 hours. Now the same meal can fill me up for 8 hours. Why? My body can burn carbs now instead of storing them only.

Now of course I don't do that often. But it is an example of how your body can get back to working well. So instead of 'blaming' yourself or emotions or this or that event. Step back and know for most of us it is the food itself that is creating a cycle not 'us'. You know why you are hungry? Because you are hungry.

Try lowering carbs, cutting out bread and pasta. I know it sounds impossible. It isn't. Give it a month. It might transform your life.


Wannabeskinny
02-08-2014, 09:01 AM
Ah, here we go again with the carb police. Everyone has to find what works for them and although I will agree that our society eats a lot of empty carbs - way more than we need - that doesn't mean that carbs are evil. The entire world eats carb, think of how much rice people eat in Asia, think of how much pasta is eaten in Italy, think of how much corn is eaten in south America. I'm willing to limit, I'm willing to be careful, I'm willing to understand the effect that too much of something can be harmful but obliterating a whole food group out of my diet has caused nothing but binges. And weight gain. And then depression, and then the whole cycle starts all over again.

I get it, you're a "shout it from the rooftops" type of guy. I'm very impressed with your success and your positive attitude and I truly rejoice at your newfound joie de vivre. And I also understand that you're trying to be helpful to others who may be struggling. And I agree when I eat too much wheat I feel lethargic and hungry. And there's a lot to be gained and understood from realizing that. But for me, and many others I suspect, it's easier to just deal with disordered eating than to cut out a delicious major food group that is unavoidable and will be there at every party, every holiday, every function, and every day life. If you look really closely at the people around you who don't have weight problems - they eat everything. That's who I want to be, not someone who is perpetually avoiding this or that.

I want my cake and I want to eat it too.

diamondgeog
02-08-2014, 09:14 AM
Not the carb police but pointing out, for many not all, you might be fighting your very chemistry and metabolism if you don't focus on carbs. I know I had messed up my metabolism so much and especially insulin production it would have been virtually impossible for me to succeed without doing that.

There is a large and growing amount of science behind this. I was as big a binger as probably most here. I am no longer hungry. I really do appreciate your second paragraph. I would have liked to have not cut stuff out in some ways. I tried that for decades.

Some evidence you can get to the point where insulin is always present. So food gets stored too much, not used too much of the time. This leaves people eating a lot of calories hungry all the time.

Keep an open mind that 'disordered eating' might be the result of a disordered metabolism where the body is storing food as fat and holding on to it. And if you are able to try cold turkey for a period you can get your body working in a more normal range AND find hunger and cravings much reduced or eliminated.

Ironically I can eat carbs now and be fine. So for me the only true way to have my cake and eat it to was to go cold turkey, eliminate bread and pasta, get my body back to normal. Get rid of cravings. Now I can have some if I want to and be fine.

But not before getting my insulin chemistry and metabolism, using food not overly storing and holding on to it, right.


diamondgeog
02-08-2014, 11:01 AM
Or think of it this way. How many people here binge on brociolli or spinach or even steak while eating the fat? It is mostly sweets, breads, baked goods, fried foods, starchy vegetables. Things that are sugar or become glucose almost immediately and raise blood sugar.

So you can not focus on carbs. But if so I believe it is much harder for some. Maybe impossible for some to succeed and get in control and reach their goals

EasySpirit
02-08-2014, 11:26 AM
I agree completely; whenever I lose weight, whether on calories or WW points, I do much better when I watch my carbs, especially wheat and sugar. Unfortunately, at this time it seems almost impossible for me to get on track. I seem to have a problem balancing my food (and drink) with my exercise. I am doing very well with exercise now, at other times I have the diet under control, but slack off on the exercise. I am holding at 162-163 for the past month, but only because of the exercise. I know I would be gaining if not for that. Yet, when I finally get my carbs and overeating under control, I will probably slack off again.

diamondgeog
02-08-2014, 10:41 PM
Yep. Watching Fathead the movie. It explains it pretty clearly. When insulin levels are up your body just holds on to calories and especially fat. So if you aren't targeting carbs/sugar you're trying to fight biology. In my experience I not only didn't succeed in weight loss but remained hungry all the time if I just tried to reduce eating and did not target carbs. So it was a viscous cycle.

I don't 'like' it. But I'm also not going to ignore it. I've tried to cut all 'junk carbs' from my diet. To me this is bread, pasta, starchy vegetables, sweets, potato chips. It is working and sticking to it got easier not harder because the things I eat now are so much more filling. Insulin is what it is. I am not going to work against the knowledge that is coming out, or rather being rediscovered, I am going to use it.

diamondgeog
02-08-2014, 10:54 PM
There is also the 'rice paradox' of Asia. But it really isn't. If you peel it back it actually backs up everything more and more doctors and experts around the world are saying.

Until recently there were a lot of very active farming and labor intensive jobs in Asia. Lots of movement, lots of physical labor. You can get away with a lot more carbs in this situation. They still aren't great for you but they do less damage. Second there probably is some less insulin sensitivity if you take overall populations.

But with modernity and more sedentary jobs, diabetes and heart disease is accelerating, a lot, in Asian countries.

So if you are Michael Phelps and swimming 5 hours a day or have really good natural ability to not produce too much insulin then you will probably be ok with more carbs.

But I am guessing almost everyone here doesn't probably fall into those categories. Is carbs the be all end all for everyone? No. But I would definitely take it seriously and look into the science if I was having problems with weight and/or binging.

DrivenByAmbition
02-08-2014, 11:08 PM
Very good points, diamondgeog.

As for the poster, that I will leave nameless, sometimes I believe that if you have to be so negative on a post, it's better to not make a post at all. This is not in reference to you, diamondgeog, just for clarification.

Some people, like myself, can't have cake... So you can eat my piece.

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 07:38 AM
Not everyone who is overweight got there the same way. But for many people in America and around the world a primary cause is too many carbs and insulin being out whack.

The good news? Not only can people loose weight, they can loose around the belly, get insulin metabolism back to normal, and get hunger under control. I've said how in this thread. It has worked for me. And millions around the world.

You can use science and information and succeed. Or at the very least try that approach. When I started in May I literally Googled Why am I so hungry after eating fast food. That led me to discussions on carbs, hunger, insulin, glycemic index, belly fat. How America blamed fat not sugar/carbs for heart disease 50 years ago with disastrous effects.

Sure experts differ. And everyone has to shift through info for themselves. But I found the carb info compelling and every benefit predicted happened to meŽ better bloodwork, belly fat radically down, hunger way down, weight loss.

magical
02-09-2014, 08:04 AM
I have noticed the many threads on low carb dieting in this forum recently :)

Anyhow, for me, peak performance comes with eating carbs before training, not anything else including protein, even though I'm not Michael Phelps, lol. So there is a role that carbs play in my diet.

Each to their own, I guess.

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 08:36 AM
Absolutely. Magical imagine though if you had ever eaten enough carbs to get to twice your high weight like many here and could barely run and where hungry all the time. You are at a different point in your journey.

Look up Ken Berger on low carbs in the NBA. Fascinating stuff. Also Professor Tim Noakes. He literally wrote the 'bible' on carb necessity for running. He has done a 180 on his earlier work. That being said carbs do have a role especially in high energy intense activity settings. Although lots of interesting work people can train their bodies to get better at using fat in these situations.

Actually magical very glad you posted. Its as much people's bodies are literally different than to each his own. Your body can burn carbs much better than someone whose insulin system isn't working well. For very overweight people like I was we need to get that working well, get over carb addictions in many cases, and control our hunger. If we get to the point where best pre meal for an intense activity more important than hunger all the time, that is a huge victory.

Wannabeskinny
02-09-2014, 09:24 AM
Very good points, diamondgeog.

As for the poster, that I will leave nameless, sometimes I believe that if you have to be so negative on a post, it's better to not make a post at all. This is not in reference to you, diamondgeog, just for clarification.

Some people, like myself, can't have cake... So you can eat my piece.

Wow, you did such a good job of keeping me nameless lol.

Anyway, I don't think I was being negative in fact I was agreeing with many points. But I totally disagree with the notion that you have to be Michael Phelps to eat carbs. That's kind of ridiculous to say. I don't know any naturally thin person who is scared of carbs. They might be aware of carbs and keeping a balanced diet but people who don't have weight problems don't go on tirades about any food group. I've been on the low-carb bandwagon for years now. For me (can't speak for others, only me), it's led to binging. Period. I could do it for a while, a few months maybe before I'd break down and go on a lasting binge that would erase all my weight loss. I did paleo, I did atkins, I did low carbing, I did carb cycling, I did food combining. You name it I've tried it. So if I have an opinion then it is of value to me, maybe not to anyone else but I have experience so I get to talk.

I've been low carb for so many years in fact that when I recently started looking into IE I was really really really skeptical. Still am, no lie. Low carb is my default. I still value the lessons of low carb. Dr. Lustig is my hero. It's horrifying how much sugar is added to processed food. I think sugar can play an evil role in our lives whether you're skinny or not. I think the food industry are nothing more than drug dealers - they get you hooked on their special concoction of sugar/salt/fat. I've read all the books, yes I have and I'm in agreement.

And I've done the therapy. I have sought therapy for a number of years to treat my binge eating disorder. I have emotional ties to eating. I'm also chemically dependent on food. It's a viscious cycle and fast carbs play a huge role in that.

But I think I'm done with playing the victim. I'm not the victim of the fast food industry, I'm not the victim of sugar or carbs, I'm not the failure when a diet doesn't work, I'm not a scientist that needs to count grams and calories and fats and whatnots. There is no victim here, just a person who's lost complete touch with my hunger, that eats out of boredom, stress, anxiety, social cues and a whole laundry list of other reasons other than hunger. Just like low carb doesn't work for everyone, neither does IE. But for the first time in over 2 decades I'm starting to see that food is not evil, it's not out to get me and I can't eat what I want. You're talking to a low-carb queen who lost 2lbs this week eating cookies, pasta, sandwiches, potatoes, and cereal too. Is it the best way? Who knows. But at least I know that I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt or shame for it. I've enjoyed every morsel of food I've put into my mouth and feel and look better. It's certainly not easy and I'm the last person who will go around suggesting it to others but after many many years of being a carb victim I'm just so happy to step off that roller coaster. I'm in no position to give dieting advice to anyone. What I've learned most is not to worry about dieting for a while. No more tirades for me. I'm zeroing in on watching the habits of people who are naturally thin, or the people who have maintained weight loss for a long long time.

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 09:36 AM
I've never counted a thing since I started. That has been one of the 'beauty' of lowering carbs for me. Appetite and hunger AND metabolism all regulated itself.

By all means go with what works. Glad you don't see yourself as a victim. I did. I do. The food industry has a LOT to answer for IMO. But what did I do? Wallow as a victim? No, it got me angry. It provided additional fuel to be healthy.

I am asking people to research for themselves. Many hundreds of people visiting here can be dramatically helped by learning more about carbs. That is why I post and that is why I will continue to post. But I will be the first to say find out for yourself.

But I do need to come back to this point. Many people hold on to carbs like nobodies business, as fat in their midsections, and they make them constantly hungry. I know, I was one of them. Do you understand why your approach would not work for them? And who knows maybe you can have carbs now in the quantity you do because you went low carb in past and got your metabolism in order?

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 10:41 AM
It may be confusing as to why I say I am still a victim. Well even if you never purchase processed food or go to fast food you still pay for it. A LOT. Obesity, heart disease, cancer, dementia are crippling our healthcare. To 100s of billions a year. We all pay for that.

And it isn't just their products. Food companies have been driving forces behind disastrous government food advice and subsidies for corn for instance which led to high high fructose corn syrup use in America.

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 11:26 AM
Just saw this on twitter BTW. Was looking at Tim Noakes tweets. Someone said but there are so many 'skinny' Chinese.

This is his reply "@ProfTimNoakes: Not any more. China now country with largest number of obese, hypertensive, diabetic, heart disease sufferers on planet."

Granted they have the most people. Pretty sure he meant numbers not percentages. Point being even Asian countries not escaping harm from carbs. And I will never say veggie carbs are bad. But all around the planet we are eating just too many non veggie carbs and it is killing us.

100 years ago if you asked 100 people why is someone overweight 95 would say they are eating too many carbs. Somehow that wisdom got lost.

Link for the science behind it. One of many links. With many scientific paper references. Especially for overweight, low carb is being proven effective and important in study after study.

http://www.dietdoctor.com/science

Wannabeskinny
02-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Like I said I don't disagree with most of what you say. Just saying that I'm not in a war mentality at the moment. It's enough that I worry about my own needs for a change. And I've always fed my family really well and I don't expect my son to wind up with the same food issues I have. I find that my way of doing things is helping my metabolism so I can't speak for anyone else and can't understand why you feel the need to. We all have access to the same information and need to go about it in our own ways. I vote with my dollars and I'm aware what the industry does. But aside from worrying about myself, my family, my spending habits, being involved in my school system and being aware of the dangers of processed food there's not much more that I can do. And personally while I can attest to feeling better when I go easy on the wheat I find that villainizing food damages my relationship to food and causes me to overeat. I need more peace in my life and less war.

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 03:50 PM
Fair enough.

I would disagree about the information part though. Main stream media and many, probably most doctors, give the standard USDA pyramid as advice. Sadly American Heart Association and American Diabetes Association does things like endorse Subway. You see little heart symbols next to Subway sandwiches. With processed meats and breads not very heart healthy.

I've learned a lot the last 9 months. In fact I've unlearned most of what I thought I knew about nutrition, especially fats. But also carbs of course. If everyone knew there would be no need for 3FC would there be? We'd all be healthy weights with no heart disease, diabetes, dementia, or cancer.

Koshka
02-09-2014, 03:59 PM
Some people do well on lower carbs. Some people do well by eliminating gluten. I was curious enough about to try both approaches. In fact, I did a strict 30 days elimination of gluten because I wanted to know if I was sensitive. As it turned out, I'm not sensitive to gluten and I'm not really sensitive to carbs either. I tend to eat a fairly low to moderate carb amount (about 100g a day of net carbs). Truthfully, I don't notice any real difference in how I feel or in my weight loss efforts if I lower carbs or not. I tend to eat lower carb because I have severely limited refined carbs and carbs with added sugar. I do that because I don't want empty calories. I'm also not at all sensitive to gluten. I'm glad I checked all this out. Going on a low carb diet for awhile did make it easier to virtually eliminate the refined carbs and added sugar so I'm glad that I did it. On the other hand, I'm now back to eating a moderate carb diet with mostly fruits/veggies/whole grains and I feel fine doing that for me.

magical
02-09-2014, 04:21 PM
Just saw this on twitter BTW. Was looking at Tim Noakes tweets. Someone said but there are so many 'skinny' Chinese.

This is his reply "@ProfTimNoakes: Not any more. China now country with largest number of obese, hypertensive, diabetic, heart disease sufferers on planet."

http://www.dietdoctor.com/science


It's not carbs per se that is making Chinese people fat. How can it when the Chinese staple food has been rice for a long, long time?

The rise in obesity in developing countries is caused by a multitude of factors, not simply one single cause. Chief causes are:

1) an increased consumption of Western style high calorie, low nutrient foods such as fast foods, fried foods and sugar as we conventionally know it by (chocolates, cakes, sweets etc) as well as saturated fat and salt.

2) a general increase in volume of food (any kind of foods e.g. rice, meats, fruits, vegetables) thus giving rise to an increase in calorie consumption.

3) an increase in sedentary lifestyle.

CharityMarie
02-09-2014, 04:22 PM
Fair enough.

I've learned a lot the last 9 months. In fact I've unlearned most of what I thought I knew about nutrition, especially fats. But also carbs of course. If everyone knew there would be no need for 3FC would there be? We'd all be healthy weights with no heart disease, diabetes, dementia, or cancer.

There are so many other reasons you can get cancer other than foods. So so many. That I know for a fact because of my job. The others, well, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that food is not the sole cause of many of those. I also worked with the MR population, about 90% of people with downs syndrome after the age of 50 unfortunately are the victims of dementia. It wasn't noticed in years past because they weren't living all that long, but now with advanced medicine its painfully obvious that their chromosome disorder is affecting them as a double whammy they get dementia in their older ages.

Alright, besides that. You can educate anyone of proper nutrition. Low carb is great. Moderation is key to it all. There's that fancy food pyramid we all saw growing up. The fact is we all suffer from free will! I was a little chunky in my late high school years but after? I ballooned up in my first years of my 20s.

Food, in the moment, makes you feel good. I love food! I just had to start loving it in a new way. I eat clean now. I check the ingredients to everything, I am a walking billboard to my friends and family about the sheer amount of poo you can ingest without knowing what you're doing!

There are so many approaches to dieting, it's really a 'to each his own' sort of thing. I've been counting calories, but also paying very close attention to what is IN my food. So its not counting the calories to some fat free pringles (what are those even MADE of?!) its calories of foods close to the earth.

There's no end all, be all to this process. I think you can take whatever approach to losing weight, especially if you are morbidly obese (like me!) but you still at the end of the road, in maintenance land, need to learn to eat clean and eat well. Food pyramid type of stuff, we all on some level know what we SHOULD be doing, we just have to flip the switch and do it.

I don't think I'm following a gimmick. I take into account what I'm eating, what a serving is, and what my food actually is. I can't do much better than that!

diamondgeog
02-09-2014, 05:27 PM
100 grams is fairly low carb. Remember the recommendation is 300 grams. Most Americans get much more than 100 net carbs. I am not Atkins I'd say that is pretty low carb. Agree with the moderation comment.

Yes no one approach fits all. But I think the number one worse advice, one most overall harmful thing for the most people has clearly been carbs at the bottom of the food pyramid and scaring people from fat.

So, to me, focusing on the number one (not the only thing) has a lot of value. And yes I am sure there are people here who might even be able to have 300 grams of carbs a day and not get very overweight or get diabetes. There are pack a day smokers who live to 90 and don't get lung cancer. But obviously as a nation we are doing VERY badly with carbs on the bottom of the food pyramid.

Whole wheat bread has glycemic index of 70 BTW. More than regular soda and sugar. Up until 9 months ago I believed everyone telling me it was healthy.

The point is people are getting huge and unhealthy FOLLOWING the food pyramid. Americans have actually cut fat the last 40 years.

I'm glad everyone was on the ball. I was using spreads not butter and doing a thousand other things I was encouraged to do but I now feel is wrong.

Regarding food and feeling good. People generally feel great on high fat low carb, both energy and especially mood. Low fat diets are highly correlated with depression.

Vex
02-09-2014, 05:34 PM
I've lost 100 lbs counting nothing but calories.

That being said, I do believe some people have increased sensitivity towards carbs and sugar. I'm one of those that cannot stop at just one Olive Garden breadstick....or one donut.

Do I believe that's the carb or sugar's fault? Partially. I believe that those foods make it harder to lose weight, but in the end, it's the person who has control over what they put in their mouth.

I eat a lot of things that are likely bad for me - processed, chemicals, etc. I'm sure I'd be healthier not eating those things. Restricting too much though for me would have likely led to weight loss failure as it has in the past. Will I eat better foods in the future? Maybe. One step at a time.

Wannabeskinny
02-09-2014, 09:12 PM
Comparing while wheat bread to a pack a day of cigarettes makes no sense at all!!

diamondgeog
02-10-2014, 11:06 AM
Yes I am linking eating grains, especially in the amount the government currently tells you to do, like smoking. It won't kill you right away....but it will lead to a lot of bad stuff and eventually it will sooner than you would otherwise.

Why? Human beings are simply not designed to eat grains. I don't think there is much argument that for 99.999% of human evolution we did not eat grains. Or vanishingly small amounts, nothing even close to 300 grams a day, and no breads. It is only the last thousands of years we started eating more grains and bread.

Livestock is fed a heavy grain diet now. You know why? It is cheap and it makes them fat as fast as possible. It also slowly kills them. That is why there is so much antibiotic use in livestock. I prefer for me and my family to not get ill like livestock and fat like livestock.

And as for the same info that got many people here on this board and around the world into a whole lot of grief it is still out there.

This link is only a few days old. And surprise surprise the studies were funded by General Mills.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-dont-eat-enough-whole-grains-fiber-study/

diamondgeog
02-10-2014, 11:45 AM
So I gave the General Mills approved answer on grains above.

Here are a couple of sites I like that I think give a more accurate picture of grains. And just like the author of the first one, Mark, I to searched far and wide for if grains are good or essential. I wanted them to be. I was a big grain guy. But it is what it is. Since giving them up I am down almost 75 pounds, blood work is very good to great, I have more energy, better mood, best health of my life.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grains-are-unhealthy/#axzz2swECMFin

http://news.discovery.com/human/why-you-should-probably-stop-eating-wheat-121214.htm

krampus
02-10-2014, 01:18 PM
Many people who have binge eating disorder binge eat to numb feelings and repressed psychological trauma, not because they're hungry.

Did you see the WSJ article on advice (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304181204579364851559120522?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052702304181204579364851559120522.html) and how the seeking and doling out of advice can actually turn people off from doing things and elicit a knee-jerk teenage "I'll do the exact opposite" reaction?

When I was losing weight I DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT and hearing people preach about whatever worked for them made me want to unhinge my jaw so I could eat Cheetos faster. Especially the "women should lift weights" argument. Good lawd that ground my gears. I got so sick of hearing from various people that strength training changed their lives for the better and yada yada yada. I lift now and I think it's awesome and everybody should do it, but it took me a while to come around to it because I was so sick of hearing about it.

I agree with you about grains but every time someone on the internet posts about how evil they are, I find myself instinctively wanting to deep throat a loaf of bread in protest.

diamondgeog
02-10-2014, 01:28 PM
Well everyone tells you to use a seat belt. If that bugs someone and they don't use a seat belt and get severely injured what are we supposed to do? Say oh yeah guys don't use seat belts.

BTW my wife thought I was an emotional eater. Heck she thought SHE was an emotional eater. I did the grain free, wheat free thing before her. I kept saying it is unbelievable how much my hunger has gone down. I am just not hungry anymore.

She finally gave it a try for an extended period. Just last night she was saying to a friend she thought she could never give up breads. But she has. She is down 13 pounds since January and says she hasn't felt this good in a long time, and is almost never hungry now.

WhooHoo! So excited.

Wannabeskinny
02-10-2014, 01:29 PM
Since giving them up I am down almost 75 pounds, blood work is very good to great, I have more energy, better mood, best health of my life.
]

Yes, you mentioned that a few times. Good for you. You lost me at how sooner or later my abnormal inhuman grain addiction is going to kill me faster than cigarettes. Oh and the government is out to get me, got it.

Krampus, pass the Cheetos please.

pixelllate
02-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Well everyone tells you to use a seat belt. If that bugs someone and they don't use a seat belt and get severely injured what are we supposed to do? Say oh yeah guys don't use seat belts.

If it resulted in the same result, then at least there isn't that annoyance of someone stepping on their box and screaming at me to put on my seatbelt all day every day. Also there is a difference between consistent public service style announcements, even if "well-intended" and occasional advice.

diamondgeog
02-10-2014, 03:53 PM
Yes, you mentioned that a few times. Good for you. You lost me at how sooner or later my abnormal inhuman grain addiction is going to kill me faster than cigarettes. Oh and the government is out to get me, got it.

Krampus, pass the Cheetos please.

Wannabeskinny..your the only person that said it is 'abnormal' addiction. It is the most normal thing in the world. Grains are HIGHLY addictive. I am just pointing out they are unhealthy. I never said they were not addictive, I said the exact opposite.

You're the only one who said grains will kill you faster than cigarettes. I've no idea. Especially for an individual. How many cigarettes, how many carbs, have they developed diabetes yet, etc. I am just pointing out they are unhealthy.

Feel free to have as many Cheetos as you'd like. Me? I wannabehealthy.

I wish I could make a world just for you where Cheetos and grains were healthy. But I have to deal with the physiology I've been given.

And BTW the world screams at people to EAT grains. You can find it out all over the place from government, to American Heart Association, to the American Diabetes Association. So given that, and given that that they are highly addictive, and given that this is a forum for people trying to get into control, this is very valuable information.

But please feel free to do whatever you want. Be as healthy or unhealthy as you'd like. Carb load to your heart's desire. I am not going to stop you.

And also I didn't hide what I was trying to say. I said in the first post in this thread that eating carbs can make you continually hungry and hold on to fat. Continually hungry. Pretty appropriate for a Chicks in Control section, no?

I never told you to stop posting, I never said you are getting on a soap box to tell people to keep eating cake and Cheetos. If you want to have your cake fine. I've posted info and links as to why that might be harmful. People are allowed to smoke, they are allowed to eat cake. Because it is a free country. And because it is a free country people are allowed to point out its harmful. And that is DOUBLY important because the official information in the case of carbs is that they are not harmful.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 06:55 AM
I have a coworker. About my height. He has always known me as bigger than him. He saw me losing weight. He has been around 250 for a long time. He saw me get to him then go past him. He would come to my desk and ask what I was doing. I would tell him. And give him the science. Oh I could never give up bread he'd say. Or this thing or that thing. And yes my coworker is real.

For me to be successful this time I had to do a lot of research. I had to go beyond standard medical and government advice. I had for decades eaten a lot of whole grains because they were 'good for me'.

I found out in reality that grains tend to make a) many people continually hungry b) have very high glycemic indexes really raising blood sugar c) can impact metabolism to the point where people store calories as fat and give up their fat calories very reluctantly d) have absolutely nothing essential that can't be gotten from other foods with a lot fewer calories and foods that don't have all the negatives above.

This info was critical for me to succeed. I needed to know the science to give me extra fuel to change. The Mark's Daily Apple post I linked to above is excellent place to start. Then maybe Fathead the movie on YouTube. I used it and am succeeding. I am helping my family and friends succeed. And I post here to help strangers succeed. To give them the info I didn't have. And that also is what it is. I could say something about attitude of others here but their words are their words and that also is what it is.

BTW my co-worker is pre-diabetic and still won't give up carbs. He even exercises way more than I do. His weight will not budge. I told him his diet is setting up his body to store fat not burn it. Me by eliminating grains and other 'junk carbs' and getting my carbs from veggies and beans and nuts have set my body up to burn fat when I exercise. I can't speak for anyone else on the planet but I'd rather use the science of food and my body to succeed, not fight them.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 07:57 AM
Wannabeskinny..your the only person that said it is 'abnormal' addiction. It is the most normal thing in the world. Grains are HIGHLY addictive. I am just pointing out they are unhealthy. I never said they were not addictive, I said the exact opposite.

Dude! You're the one who said that humans eating grains is abnormal (and I quote) "Human beings are simply not designed to eat grains."

You're the only one who said grains will kill you faster than cigarettes. I've no idea. Especially for an individual. How many cigarettes, how many carbs, have they developed diabetes yet, etc. I am just pointing out they are unhealthy.

And I quote "Yes I am linking eating grains, especially in the amount the government currently tells you to do, like smoking. It won't kill you right away....but it will lead to a lot of bad stuff and eventually it will sooner than you would otherwise."

Feel free to have as many Cheetos as you'd like. Me? I wannabehealthy.



You can't say something and then say you never said it. And trust me, you don not have a monopoly on wanting to be healthy. And talking to everyone as if you hold the secret to life is no way to be taken seriously. I've read all the same articles, I've done all the same research, I've watched all the same movies and documentaries that you have. Believe it or not there are other people here who know how to read and research on the internet. But scaremongering people who are already scared and frightened is the opposite of inspirational.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 08:07 AM
I have a coworker. About my height. He has always known me as bigger than him. He saw me losing weight. He has been around 250 for a long time. He saw me get to him then go past him. He would come to my desk and ask what I was doing. I would tell him. And give him the science. Oh I could never give up bread he'd say. Or this thing or that thing. And yes my coworker is real. And right there, you made a judgement. He was being honest about what he can or can't do and you and automatically you one upped him.

For me to be successful this time I had to do a lot of research. I had to go beyond standard medical and government advice. I had for decades eaten a lot of whole grains because they were 'good for me'. I'm way ahead of you here, I probably figured out this information wayyyyyy before you did, and many others around here did too.

I found out in reality that grains tend to make a) many people continually hungry b) have very high glycemic indexes really raising blood sugar c) can impact metabolism to the point where people store calories as fat and give up their fat calories very reluctantly d) have absolutely nothing essential that can't be gotten from other foods with a lot fewer calories and foods that don't have all the negatives above. Personal choice!!

This info was critical for me to succeed. I needed to know the science to give me extra fuel to change. The Mark's Daily Apple post I linked to above is excellent place to start. Then maybe Fathead the movie on YouTube. I used it and am succeeding. I am helping my family and friends succeed. And I post here to help strangers succeed. To give them the info I didn't have. And that also is what it is. I could say something about attitude of others here but their words are their words and that also is what it is. As long as you've convinced your family then what does it matter that you convince strangers? Trust me, we all have this info that you think is hidden. And if we're talking attitude then I don't find yours impressive.

BTW my co-worker is pre-diabetic and still won't give up carbs. Still???? He even exercises way more than I do. His weight will not budge. None of your businessI told him his diet is setting up his body to store fat not burn it. I bet he doesn't come by your desk much these daysMe by eliminating grains and other 'junk carbs' and getting my carbs from veggies and beans and nuts have set my body up to burn fat when I exercise. I can't speak for anyone else on the planet but I'd rather use the science of food and my body to succeed, not fight them.

At the end of the day, nobody wants to be told that they are going to die, or stay fat, or that their diet is wrong. People come here to get support, find information and not be judged for whether they use it or not. Others have tried to explain to you that restricting food or carbs or whatever causes them to binge but then you just judge them for that too and tell them that it was hard for you in the beginning too but that you stuck it out and "look at me now!" I know all there is to know about carbs and grains, I'm not obtuse or stupid. But you know what? At my kids birthday party I'm going to have a piece of cake. Because I'm not trading in one kind of eating disorder for another.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 08:09 AM
You simply don't know how to read. I am tired of it. I said human beings weren't DESIGNED to eat grains. However people do a lot of things they aren't designed to do. Even though we aren't designed to do it they are very addictive and pleasurable. We've also been told they were good for us. I said eating them were unhealthy. You are the only one calling them 'abnormal'. I am proud of my words here and as I said your words and attitude are what they are.

And believe it or not I don't post just for you. Since you know everything about carbs then maybe this thread wasn't for you. Of course say as much as you want. But don't make the thread about me. If other people are turned off by my posts why don't you let them decide for themselves? I could say a lot more but I won't because I think this thread is important and I want it to be about ideas.

BUT. BTW HOW DARE YOU? I never had a one up attitude on my coworker. NEVER. I want him to be healthy and I don't judge his carb attitude at all. He said he didn't want to give them up. I responded well it helped me a lot and if you ever decide to I think it would help you as well. And I am here to help whenever you want. I've never gone to his desk to talk weight he comes to my desk. He keeps asking how I did it, not me. And he continues to come by. I also told him I never thought I could give them up also. I was shocked I could. I told him there is a hard transition period and it gets better. I have giving nothing but encouragement. I am honest about carbs. And he has thanked me for it.

You really need to chill.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 08:11 AM
...I think this thread is important and I want it to be about ideas.

Just not my ideas

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 08:32 AM
You're are ideas are fine and welcome. Just not your personal attacks.

I've never criticized someone overweight. I've lived it. I KNOW how addictive carbs are. I think it is helpful for people to know it is possible to give them up and a real life example of how that can change lives. I was a five fries refill guy at Red Robin. 5. So I want to give hope. I've not only been where many are now but even beyond it. And unlike you I didn't know this info.

Any maybe there are other people like me who didn't. I don't go into threads and go I already knew that, why are you posting. Everyone knows that. Seems to me what you are doing.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 08:53 AM
There is a difference between presenting information objectively and scaremongering. You're not conveying a sense of hope, you're conveying a sense of superiority. When I quoted you directly you accused me of not being able to read - presumably because you believe that if I were indeed capable of reading then I would automatically agree with your arguments. Notice that I never ever disagreed with the facts, I only disagree with your opinion of the facts... and if you compare eating a potato to the suffering that smokers have to endure then you're just pulling things out of thin air, this argument has nothing to do with facts, it's simply an observation and a poor one at that.

Do you allow your kids to eat grains? Has everyone in your family converted to paleo? And I'll go ahead and say it - I question your ability to eat like this forever. Sorry, but my experience with restriction is that it leads to binges - I'm not a scientist but I've been restricting and gaining for a long time so either I'm not doing it right or I must not want to be healthy like you do right? So just like you question my ability to lose weight while still eating grains I question your ability to avoid grains forever.

freelancemomma
02-11-2014, 08:53 AM
I KNOW how addictive carbs are.

Not for everyone. I'm 57 years old and maintain my weight on 2,000 calories a day, with macronutrients roughly following the food pyramid (about 300 g carbs). I've always been able to lose weight without any trouble, and no plateaus, simply by reducing my caloric intake to 1,500/day. Knock on wood, I have no health symptoms whatsoever -- no joint or muscle pains, headaches, or digestive ailments of any kind. I feel exactly the way I did at 20. My lab values are all fine, too.

I'm not cynical enough to believe that governments and medical associations throughout North America are deliberately depriving the public of hard evidence that grains are harmful. I rather believe that the evidence you propound as gospel is mixed at best. There may well be some individuals for whom carbs/grains are physiologically deleterious and/or psychologically toxic, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to stay away, any more than the existence of peanut allergy should lead me to avoid peanuts.

F.

p.s. And if you'll forgive the boast, my belly is as flat as they come. I think the title "Wheat Belly" is disingenuous because it implies that eating wheat causes fat to settle around the belly, when in truth it's impossible to spot gain or spot reduce. Each body deposits and loses fat in a preordained sequence particular to that body. If you overate on a Paleo diet, you'd gain the weight in exactly the same places as if you overate wheat.

krampus
02-11-2014, 09:23 AM
Are you in sales, diamondgeog?

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 09:25 AM
I won't go back for two main reasons. 1 I have discovered tasty delicious food that isn't junk carb food. 2 I am so much less hungry. I can't speak to anyone else but my relationship to carbs had messed up my metabolism to the point I stored fat I didn't burn it. But hey Wannabe thanks for the 'encouragement' that I will go back and likely die before my daughter turns 15.

Freelance I posted how people are different. And in fact I've changed to more like you. I now burn carbs and burn fat. So not only can you change your hunger you can change your metabolism. People are at different points in how their insulin and cells operate.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 09:31 AM
I'm not Paleo. I am just trying to eliminate junk carbs/sugar from food and drink. That is all. No extremes, no magic. And no note in sales.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 09:38 AM
I can't eat grains. I liked them a lot. I don't miss them now. They make my belly huge and me very lethargic and bad blood work. I can drink socially, some people can't. I wish you every success Wannabe with whatever you try. I personally can't have much grains and succeed.

pixelllate
02-11-2014, 09:40 AM
Its not the issue of the the content of the advice - plenty of people post the same ideas/advice and that is fine. Its an issue of the poster.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 09:46 AM
But I can eat fries and even potato chips now and no cravings. So in that sense I guess not like some people with alcohol problems. But I had to do my transition period to get here.

carter
02-11-2014, 10:05 AM
Nobody likes to be evangelized to, and nobody likes to be told "you're doing it wrong."

Moreover we are all so different, so differently wired and conditioned, with such different preferences and lifestyles and other constraints, that the only true secret to weight loss is that there is no one true secret.

The only thing we can do, each of us, is do our own science experiments and figure out what will work best for us as individuals. In approaching that process, it is helpful to hear what has worked for others. I am glad that the discussion seems to be simmering down to that level of "this has worked for me" - because see my first paragraph.

For every person who has binges triggered by carbs or weight loss slowed by carbs you can find someone who has no trouble with carbs at all.

Myself, I lost 120 pounds (and thus far kept 4/5 of it off; I am working off a bit of a regain now) without ever explicitly restrictingcarbs. My on-plan days frequently include some bread and lots of fruit, and more occasionally rice and potatoes. My binges are not triggered by carbs; they are not related to specific cravings for this or that food item. In that way my experience as a binger is quite different from some others' - but probably not different from all others.

That has been my experience and I've learned a lot about myself and my patterns from 4+ years of my own science experiments and observations on my body, my preferences, my triggers, my struggles, my needs. I highly encourage everyone to do their own science experiments. Even though I haven't needed to go low-carb to achieve what I wanted to achieve, I strongly encourage anyone else to try it for a month or two and see how it feels, both how it makes your body feels and how it feels as a lifestyle. After all, lots of folks have found it beneficial, and the only way to know if it would be for you too is to try.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 10:22 AM
But hey Wannabe thanks for the 'encouragement' that I will go back and likely die before my daughter turns 15.



I would never ever ever wish you to go backwards and die from heart disease or diabetes or anything like that! But see how easily you react to my mere doubt of anyone's ability to persist in a diet that restricts carbs so much? You don't like being questioned, you think it's absurd for anyone to question your long term success, you've taken offense to it. But you have no problem telling a stranger at your office that his diet will contribute to his demise... funny how we we can dish it out but we can't take it.

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 10:42 AM
The very title of this thread was perhaps. I understand people are different. But many people have biology like mine. I'm not going to question others having different biology. Heck mines changed.

I didn't say it would contribute to his demise. He is pre diabetic. I said I thought cutting breads would help. Sue me for saying a pre diabetic would be helped.

And I am not super restrictive on carbs. It isn't radical. I probably have over 100 grams a day. I choose to not get them from wheat and other grains as much as possible now.

And I feel you intentionally misrepresent everything I say and make assumptions left and right. Everything you said about me I feel about you. But it isn't healthy for either of us. So I am going to not respond to any more of your posts.

Wannabeskinny
02-11-2014, 12:45 PM
...we are all so different, so differently wired and conditioned, with such different preferences and lifestyles and other constraints, that the only true secret to weight loss is that there is no one true secret.



I'll agree and disagree. There's no "secret" to weight loss. It's pure physics - burn more energy than you take in and you'll lose weight. We all arrive to that by different means and that's where we all bicker and disagree and swear by one means or another. Some of us count calories, do more exercise, eliminate certain foods or food groups, use portion control, seek therapy, take medication, surgeries, etc. The whole song and dance revolves around decreasing our food consumption. There is no point in finding the "right" way, because any of these methods will work if you follow them consistently. The only point in this is to find what works long term in a sustainable manageable way that won't eventually trip you up.

362to262
02-11-2014, 05:58 PM
There are three crucial, factual points to be made.

Fact 1. All obesity is caused by an excess of insulin in the system. Insulin is the ONLY fat storage hormone. If a person runs out of insulin they lose weight rapidly. (Rapid, unexplained weight loss is the major symptom of undiagnosed diabetes.) Each individual secretes a different amount of insulin in response to carbohydrates. (This is how we all know someone who eats whatever he likes and never gains weight.) There is also probably a racial aspect to this - some races genetically produce more insulin than others.

Fact 2. Fatty foods are highly calorific and to eat them when insulin is high will cause excess weight storage; however eating fats without the presence of insulin will not result in the storage of excess fat. Therefore, if you eat 2,000 calories made up of 1,000 calories of sugar and 1,000 calories of fat you will store the fat, but if you eat 2,000 calories of fat you will not store the fat.

Fact 3. All diets that work involve a reduction in carbohydrate intake, even if that was not the intention of the dieter. If someone reduces her intake of foods by 50% she is unintentionally reducing her intake of refined carbs by 50%, as she cuts out alcohol, chocolate, cake, pizza, etc. She is therefore reducing the level of insulin in her system both overall and on an hour-by-hour basis.

This means that you can take your choice when dieting. You can either have low fat and high carb and still lose weight because the amount of calories you are eating, in combination with the amount of refined carbs, is less than you were eating previously. Or you can go low carb and high fat. This way you are eating more calories, but you are inducing less insulin to be in your system, making it less likely that you will store the fat. If you go to extremes and eat no carbs, you can eat as much fat as you like (but you have to restrict protein as that can spike insulin.)

So, as you can see, EVERYONE is right -- either approach will lead to weight loss, and it's up to each person to discover what their own body will tolerate.

Those individuals who have a natural, genetic tendency to secrete a lot of insulin will get very hungry indeed on a high carb low fat diet. This is because the sugar in the diet will cause insulin to spike and then to plummet, and the plummetting causes horrendous hunger. Another individual, who does not secret as much insulin, does not experience the spike-plummet effect and so will not feel as hungry.

Give a low insulin-producer 30g cereal and skimmed milk for breakfast and she'll be fine till lunch.

Give a high insulin-producer 30g cereal and skimmed milk for breakfast and she'll be ravenous in half an hour.

So what is the point in arguing when individuals are different and the same thing does not work for everyone?

There's no "secret" to weight loss. It's pure physics - burn more energy than you take in and you'll lose weight.

This simply isn't true. Humans are complex systems of hormones and chemistry, not like a bath in which you regulate the amount of water by turning on the taps or pulling out the plug! We are much more individualistic than you seem to think. My b/f is 56, eats whatever he likes (as many carbs AND as much fat) and never does any exercise, and he weighs 136 pounds. According to your theory he should be about 450lb by now :-)

diamondgeorg is trying to help those people with a high insulin response to understand why dieting is so hard for them, and is providing information that government health advisors do not provide when they tell us to fill up on rice, bread, potatoes and pasta. This is terrible advice for people who are high insulin-producers, but OK for those who aren't.

Helena

diamondgeog
02-11-2014, 06:39 PM
And the high insulin low insulin producer can even change within a person. I noticed this because I have had a number of meals at Mexican restaurants same eating as before. Very large amounts of carbs. Before I'd have been hungry in less than 2 hours. Now it fills me for 8 hours. So I've 'repaired' my insulin metabolism to some extent.

They've done studies and some people on high carb diets literally have insulin present 24 hours. Virtually impossible to loose weight.

This current effort has been more successful and easier than before because I used science this time. And yes there are many low insulin producers. But I know there are also MANY high insulin producers which is why diabetes is so high in U.S. I found something that not only shed pounds, but really shed stomach fat, and really made me much less hungry all the time.

And I wanted to share. But never fear. I am going to hang out in Carb Counters now. Wishing all here as much control and success as they'd like.

JohnP
02-11-2014, 08:47 PM
These types of threads drive me crazy but I couldn't stop myself from chiming in. We're all trying to be helpful but lets get the facts straight if we're going to use the words facts. Let me preface this by saying I am a low carb proponent. With that out of the way lets get one thing clear.

Insulin is not THE problem. The problem is multifactoral. The most mind blowing fact about insulin? In my opinion it is that only about 70% of obese people are even insulin resistant.

Here is a fact. You can lose weight on any diet that you can follow where calories are restricted.

The best example I can give of this is the "fruit diet" or the 80/10/10 diet. If you follow the fruit diet you will lose weight eating 80% carbs. Why? Because there is only so much fruit you can eat.

Another example is the "Twinkie diet" where the guy counted calories and lived primarily on twinkies and nutty bars.

Calories always dictate fat loss or gain. Yes, we're complicated chemistry sets and input/output varies around a number of factors but it is still about restricting calories.

The question is what is the easiest way to restict them and how do different types of food affect your energy level. (Input and output) This is variable to the individual but for most people low carb is the way to go.

I always reccomend people try low carb first because for most people that is going to be the easiest way to restrict calories but in the end it is all about calories.

tommy
02-11-2014, 08:55 PM
I understand what you are saying John. BUT - for many, especially it seems for us females, the white sugar thing is the monkey on our backs. Eliminating that crud is almost always a huge step towards sanity. It takes a more integrated approach and of course the medical profession is no help and the "diet industry" is all "gimicky" - grrr - but there is hope - just have to dig deep.

mars735
02-11-2014, 11:45 PM
diamondgeog, your eating plan makes a lot of sense to me. Your description of the constant hunger of insulin resistance is all too familiar. I lost 80 lbs on a restricted carb, fat & calorie diet. I maintain my wt. by keeping carbs & fats on the low side, but am often hungry. Moreover, I'm triggered to binge more easily than before I lost the weight. Thanks for sharing!

Leaves
02-12-2014, 02:11 AM
For me it's never been about carbs, but it has been fat and salt. I would never sit down and eat gorge on potatoes or rice, but I could eat cheese by the kilo. Cake, chocolate and other sweet things or even pasta are neither here nor there for me. *shrug*

ReillyJ
02-12-2014, 02:49 AM
Fact 3. All diets that work involve a reduction in carbohydrate intake, even if that was not the intention of the dieter. If someone reduces her intake of foods by 50% she is unintentionally reducing her intake of refined carbs by 50%, as she cuts out alcohol, chocolate, cake, pizza, etc. She is therefore reducing the level of insulin in her system both overall and on an hour-by-hour basis.

This means that you can take your choice when dieting. You can either have low fat and high carb and still lose weight because the amount of calories you are eating, in combination with the amount of refined carbs, is less than you were eating previously. Or you can go low carb and high fat. This way you are eating more calories, but you are inducing less insulin to be in your system, making it less likely that you will store the fat. If you go to extremes and eat no carbs, you can eat as much fat as you like (but you have to restrict protein as that can spike insulin.)



That doesn't necessarily track... if all the dieter did was restrict calories, the RATIO of carbs would still be the same, the calories would simply be different. i STARTED my weight loss diet simply by portion control but it was by no means reducing my carb consumption RATIO at ALL and i successfully lost weight. i do NOW do relatively low carb (probably 100 c) and i have done this for at least a year but i do allow myself free reign one day a week and believe me, my carb "regulation mechanism" hasn't been healed in the least, i still have the ability to consume excessive and vast quantities of it. For me it still is basically MIND over matter and not matter over mind...

Wannabeskinny
02-12-2014, 07:08 AM
There's no "secret" to weight loss. It's pure physics - burn more energy than you take in and you'll lose weight.

This simply isn't true. Humans are complex systems of hormones and chemistry, not like a bath in which you regulate the amount of water by turning on the taps or pulling out the plug! We are much more individualistic than you seem to think. My b/f is 56, eats whatever he likes (as many carbs AND as much fat) and never does any exercise, and he weighs 136 pounds. According to your theory he should be about 450lb by now :-)

Helena

First of all, what I said was not a theory, it's just a plain old ugly fact. How each individual person's biology is set up to store vs. burn energy is as you say - complex and going low carb does indeed SPEED UP a person's ability to burn energy.... I have high doubts about low carb fixing anyone's metabolism long term because if one was to start eating carbs again with regularity then all the fixing they did would be out the window.

I have no theories about your boyfriend, I have no idea who he is. And you say he eats as much as he wants. But unless you have solid diagnostic medical proof that he is taking in more energy than he burns then I'd say your boyfriend is some kind of alien species. Since that's unlikely then I'm willing to bet that he does not have a problematic relationship with food, he eats what he likes but only what he needs, he doesn't limit anything because he doesn't binge, he doesn't store fat because he doesn't eat more than his body can burn. He may eat what he wants (lots of people do), but don't confuse that with eating more than he needs. Is he binging? Is he eating a dozen donuts in one sitting and then following it with a steak and potato dinner and then lounging around for 3 days? Because I'm willing to bet he's not, and this is the kind of disordered eating that many of us here have dealt with in our journeys - eating way beyond what our bodies can process.

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 01:06 PM
These types of threads drive me crazy but I couldn't stop myself from chiming in. We're all trying to be helpful but lets get the facts straight if we're going to use the words facts. Let me preface this by saying I am a low carb proponent. With that out of the way lets get one thing clear.

Insulin is not THE problem. The problem is multifactoral. The most mind blowing fact about insulin? In my opinion it is that only about 70% of obese people are even insulin resistant.

Here is a fact. You can lose weight on any diet that you can follow where calories are restricted.

The best example I can give of this is the "fruit diet" or the 80/10/10 diet. If you follow the fruit diet you will lose weight eating 80% carbs. Why? Because there is only so much fruit you can eat.

Another example is the "Twinkie diet" where the guy counted calories and lived primarily on twinkies and nutty bars.

Calories always dictate fat loss or gain. Yes, we're complicated chemistry sets and input/output varies around a number of factors but it is still about restricting calories.

The question is what is the easiest way to restict them and how do different types of food affect your energy level. (Input and output) This is variable to the individual but for most people low carb is the way to go.

I always reccomend people try low carb first because for most people that is going to be the easiest way to restrict calories but in the end it is all about calories.

I wasn't going to reply anymore but JohnP your post caught my eye. JohnP you are correct to some extent but I think you are leaving out some information that was absolutely critical and vital for my success.

Imagine we were all like R2D2 and designed like 'him'. Perhaps R2D2 would have been designed to run on solar energy, gas, and electricity. Whatever was available to him that could be used as energy. He had no appetite, no metabolism. So for him the Twinkies diet for him if he could extract energy from them would be just fine.

But as humans appetite is very important. So for me it was vital and is very real that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie. For two very important, fundamental reasons.

One is carbs made me VERY HUNGRY. So if I had carbs as a big part of my daily eating, especially from breads and pasta it was going to be virtually impossible for me not to overeat. Study after study is bearing this out. They are dividing people into two groups. One is not lowering carb and calorie counting. The other is low carb with NO CALORIE restrictions or counting at all. In every study the low carb group does better.

The other thing is that when I had carbs as a big part of my diet my whole metabolism was in fat storage mode. I had to reset my metabolism by giving up virtually all 'junk carbs'. It is now much more normal and I burn fat much better.

So as human beings it really isn't a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. On carbs I was hungry all the time and storing fat and holding on to it. Without those carbs my appetite has come down naturally and I am burning fat. I didn't calorie count once during my weight loss and I don't now. I have no need to.

I cannot overstate how important it is for real world success to absolutely understand that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie in terms of succeeding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lustig-md/sugar-toxic_b_2759564.html

krampus
02-12-2014, 02:21 PM
JohnP has spoken.

Everyone go home now

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 02:24 PM
Like JohnP but he is wrong here. Study after study shows it. Real people show it.

If we were Robots without appetites and hunger and metabolisms he would be right about energy units.

BTW I fully accepting that carb intake doesn't matter for you. Or JohnP. The corollary of course is that you need to be fulling accepting that amount of carbs not just calories matter for others.

And Dr. Lustig, a very respected scientist, is showing around the world that source of calories do matter. When they are sugar they are correlated with a lot. When they aren't there is not nearly the rise in diabetes. So clearly to bodies the source of calories matters...a lot.

krampus
02-12-2014, 03:12 PM
If you starve someone on an all-carb diet that person will still lose weight. And no one is disputing that macronutrient ratios affect energy levels, satiety, clarity of thinking etc. Macros matter for most people but some people function OK with a lot of carbs including grains and sugars, especially people who are highly active - athletes, construction workers, hikers, and the like.

Wannabeskinny
02-12-2014, 03:26 PM
What bugs me most about the carb wars is not the science or the research. Because I totally get it, if I have a cereal for breakfast I'm famished shortly after as opposed to eating a bit of protein. The difference is obvious to me so I have no problem when someone wants to raise awareness about empty carbs. But what upsets me is the magnitude of importance we put on alleviating hunger. That has been upsetting me for a while, long before I decided to do IE. I was sick of being afraid of hunger. I get angry every time someone tries to make me believe that this diet will keep hunger to a minimum or that diet will get rid of cravings. Every diet attacks hunger as if its the problem, it's not the problem. The problem is what we do when we do when we get hungry, how we punish ourselves with hunger and how scared we are of it. I'm sick of the whole dieting mentality. I don't want to be the girl who looks great because I'm low far or low carb or vegan. Zero interest. I want to be the girl that can eat anything she wants and not have to worry about what food is doing to me or god forbid afraid of hunger. I want to be a normal person, I have no interest in being a successful dieter. I want to enjoy my food. Because when it comes to diets I've found out the hard way that the ONLY reasons I binge is because of stress and food restriction. I've taken away the restrictions and no more binging. I'm working on stress management and no more binging. And in eating more carbs now than I have ever allowed myself.

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 03:45 PM
Krampus,

Agreed. I admitting those people. I am admitting what is real to you. I've yet to see you admit that many people struggle with sugar/carbs.

Mark Bittman had an op-ed. He said in a locked down environment where people were forced they could loose weight regardless of source. In the real world, without lock down, if people don't take into account that a calorie is not a a calorie to them, they are making weight loss success that much harder. Now it is going to vary from person to person. But saying a calorie is a calorie is just going to impede progress for many.

Take me. I used to be able to go through 2,000 to 3,000 calories in all you can eat french fries places without blinking. I like the taste of spinach but if you asked me to go through 2,000 calories of spinach at a sitting and even offered me a $1,000 I could not do it.

Calories are not the same in the real world for what people want to actually accomplish. Source matters very much. Ironically throughout this whole process I never counted calories. I rarely even look at labels now because most of my stuff doesn't have labels. But with cutting out wheat and most grains and limiting potatoes and running and more veggies, my appetite has just regulated itself. Not focusing on weight loss right now per se., just keeping up the exercise and the way of eating and the weight loss is happening. Obviously I am interested in tracking it though.

So I get you and JohnP are correct about calories as energy. If your strapped me down and fed me a few twinkies a day I might survive for awhile and loose weight. But once I was unstrapped my metabolism would be way off and my hunger would probably be insane. I am more interested in health and how to get there in the real world with my particular metabolism.

mars735
02-12-2014, 03:58 PM
The old saw that a calorie is a calorie is a myth that is not supported by science. Bodies are complex systems that do not follow simple, mechanistic models. To say that IF you restrict calories you will lose weight is about as useful in real time as a TV weather report--entertaining, end of story.

The variables that go into whether you CAN follow a diet & how your metabolism adapts is far more complex & fraught with individual variation than can be fit into a proverb.

Wannabeskinny
02-12-2014, 04:36 PM
Krampus,

Agreed. I admitting those people. I am admitting what is real to you. I've yet to see you admit that many people struggle with sugar/carbs.
.

Why is it so important to you that someone validates your approach? You haven't for a moment validated what works for me and it doesn't bother me at all. I know it's working because it's obvious it's working, I don't need anyone to congratulate me or change what they are doing in order for me to keep doing what works. I don't see anyone here changing their mind about anything because nobody ever thinks they're wrong. I really can't give you the validation you're looking for because I don't truly believe that food is at fault for my weight. Or for anyone else for that matter.

ReillyJ
02-12-2014, 04:37 PM
If you starve someone on an all-carb diet that person will still lose weight. And no one is disputing that macronutrient ratios affect energy levels, satiety, clarity of thinking etc. Macros matter for most people but some people function OK with a lot of carbs including grains and sugars, especially people who are highly active - athletes, construction workers, hikers, and the like.


Exactly. Complex carbs can be especially needed by the very physically active

JohnP
02-12-2014, 04:44 PM
This is exactly why I try to stay out of these threads.

I don't see anyone arguing that a calorie is a calorie.

I don't see anyone arguing that we're robots and different macornutrients don't have an affect on saiety or energy levels.

In fact, if you take off your low carb glasses for just a second and read my post you'll see that we probably agree with one another.

The question is what is the easiest way to restict them and how do different types of food affect your energy level. (Input and output) This is variable to the individual but for most people low carb is the way to go.

I always reccomend people try low carb first because for most people that is going to be the easiest way to restrict calories...

To take it a step further, macronutrients do make a difference for me so why you think they don't is surprising to me. How I operate maintaining is way different than the approach I took when I was losing weight, and the approach I took then varied with exactly what I was trying to accomplish but when I was only trying to lose fat, as fast as possible, I was very low carb and very low calorie.

The only reason I posted here in the first place was the same reason I post on this board at all. Facts are facts and I believe people should know the truth. The truth is that you don't lose fat because you restrict your carbs and if you read enough on the low carb forums you'll see just how true this is both with people who are not losing weight on low carb diets and people who purposefully overeat to show that they are not gaining as much weight as they should when they are purposefully overeating trying to make a point (in a pointless way because n=1 is irrelevant.)

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 04:57 PM
JohnP,

I read that but then I thought you were arguing the most important take away is a calorie is a calorie. That could be very counterproductive if the rest of the story is not brought out.

Ironically Dr. Lustig's motto is one of your favorites' portion is poison or something like that. Anything can be unhealthy.

Getting rid of bread and pasta and most grains overall and potatoes overall reset my hunger A LOT. Allowing me then to succeed. I haven't counted calories or carbs.

I just am eating way more whole foods, less processed foods, limited the above things, more veggies, and running.

I could never get calories under control when I had bread and pasta and potatoes because I was hungry all the time.

So yes, of course, number of calories is important, very important. Regardless of source.

And you would think the following is obvious but it wasn't to me for many decades. Or at least I didn't act like it was.

Say I have 400 cal salmon for lunch and 200 cal potato chips. Or I have 400 cal salmon and 200 cal brociolli. If I have the chips I get hungry in 2 hours and have a candy bar. Then I am really hungry by dinner and eat more and crave starches. Then that leads to a late night snack.

Both lunches were 600 calories but vastly different consequences. That message can get lost if we just say a calorie is a calorie.

I focus on carbs/sugars because that is what Americans have increased by and large during obesity crisis. Per capita fat has gone down. I even think meat consumption has gone down. For me it was the thing to concentrate on but I also don't think I am unique.

300 grams of carbs a day, the recommendation, I believe works out to a cup and half of sugar a week. That is what Americans are recommended to consume.

ReillyJ
02-12-2014, 06:23 PM
JohnP,



Say I have 400 cal salmon for lunch and 200 cal potato chips. Or I have 400 cal salmon and 200 cal brociolli. If I have the chips I get hungry in 2 hours and have a candy bar. Then I am really hungry by dinner and eat more and crave starches. Then that leads to a late night snack.

Both lunches were 600 calories but vastly different consequences. That message can get lost if we just say a calorie is a calorie.

I focus on carbs/sugars because that is what Americans have increased by and large during obesity crisis. Per capita fat has gone down. I even think meat consumption has gone down. For me it was the thing to concentrate on but I also don't think I am unique.

300 grams of carbs a day, the recommendation, I believe works out to a cup and half of sugar a week. That is what Americans are recommended to consume.

i DO agree with you that lowered carb consumption for most people in the way of processed foods IS probably the healthiest way to go and would possibly facilitate easier weight loss but i have to agree in some ways with wannabeskinny. I think the problem AT LEAST FOR ME doesn't lie with food, it's MY relationship with food and hunger. See.. i could still consume the candy bar and go on a binge after i ate the healthy salmon and broccoli, i love BOTH of them. And i don't know if my relatively lower carb consumption that i do 6 days a week is helping me feel less hunger and thus not overeat--i simply CHOOSE not to and i also have learned not to fear hunger anymore-self control is far more empowering.
i only WISH my cleaner, lower carb way of eating 6 days a week has solved everything for me. It MAY VERY WELL for the majority of people but it hasn't for me, it's just a plan that i've come up with that i think is healthier (and i save my carb rich and no holds barred free day for friday and i still lost 100 lbs and kept it off) and that i manage easier if this at all makes sense. This isn't to be argumentative, it's just my POV FWIW :)

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 07:07 PM
And thats fine. Not denying anyone's reality. For me I could have been the Dali Lama of food. Best, healthiest relationship on the planet. But if I had kept breads, pasta, and potatoes in my diet I still would have been hungry all the time and overeat. The foods I chose had a physical reaction of keeping me hungry all the time.

When I cut them down and out in some cases, I still have some potatoes, my hunger went way down. I simply don't get hungry anymore. Or at least not the intense 2 hours after a big meal I can't stop myself hunger. I assume my hunger level now is 'normal' or 'healthy' level.

magical
02-12-2014, 07:20 PM
Say I have 400 cal salmon for lunch and 200 cal potato chips. Or I have 400 cal salmon and 200 cal brociolli. If I have the chips I get hungry in 2 hours and have a candy bar. Then I am really hungry by dinner and eat more and crave starches. Then that leads to a late night snack.

Both lunches were 600 calories but vastly different consequences. That message can get lost if we just say a calorie is a calorie.


Well, you will certainly feel fuller on 200 cal broccoli than 200 cal potato chips.

200 cal broccoli is a lot of broccoli compared to what, less than a handful of chips?

ETA: Wanted to add, I agree with you in principle (as all of us are agreeing with each other) that a low carb diet can certainly work for many people as an approach to stop bingeing and to keep appetite in control. That is your title and the message you are trying to get across, yes?

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 08:15 PM
I had been there for decades. Why am I hungry all the time? Why can't I stop eating? What is wrong with ME?

I was determined to succeed this time because my daughter is 3 and I am 48. It wasn't just about me this time. So I decided to get all the science I could this time. I also read Huffington Post success stories. A LOT of them mentioned lowering carbs.

So I looked into it and found out more about glycemic index. And I was shocked how high whole wheat was. I found out about Ancel Keys. I found out about people turning their bodies into fat storing machines and making weight loss virtually impossible until they changed their foods. Cutting calories just did not work.

So 'will power' hadn't worked before so I tried science. I took seriously reducing sugars and carbs except from non starchy veggies and fruits.

And I had 10 times the success at a fraction of the previous efforts. So I simply wanted to share the premise that for some people, eliminating some foods or drastically cutting back on them can really help success. And that the act of doing that can have a positive feedback loop because it can lower hunger in and of itself without any will power being applied.

I wanted to help people increase their chance of success.

And yes at times I felt like Peter Parker and other posters were J. Jonah Jameson. But like Peter I carry on because it is the act of helping that counts.

Pattience
02-12-2014, 09:48 PM
There's nothing wrong with wheat and pasta. I eat it every day on my diet. Don't have a ravenous appetite. Losing weight at a nice pace. No binging. Its all in your head.

diamondgeog
02-12-2014, 10:23 PM
Everyone needs to find out what works. For me wheat and pasta were devastating. That was my reality lived year after year day after day. Of course I didn't know that until giving them up.

But since then I haven't gotten sick. I used to have horrendous allergies. Austin is the allergy capital of the country. We had our cedar season which use to just make me into a quivering mass of sneezing, and headache, and body aches. Hardly felt it this year.

I have become a big fan of Professor Tim Noakes. Here is a short video from him with a link on the page to a much longer video. That longer one is called Health Sessions. Tim Noakes has spent his career as a Professor of exercise physiology. He even wrote a book that was one of the biggest sellers on importance of carbs for exercise. He has totally rejected his own previous work. That takes guts no matter if you think he is right now or right then. But as you can see I am far from the only one who has found grains are not for them.

As long as your happy with what you are doing, go for it. I am extremely happy with what I am doing.

http://180nutrition.com.au/2013/10/10/2-minute-gems-tim-noakes-why-ditching-these-two-foods/

mars735
02-12-2014, 10:24 PM
This is a non-issue. For some people, grains, pasta, potatoes, sugar,etc are problematic for weight loss and maintenance. Doesn't mean it applies to all, but it definitely applies to many. I would guess it's people over a certain threshold of extra weight. Most likely it's due to insulin resistance. That's the model that made sense to me and helped me to lose weight and comfortably maintain--- as long as I avoid those things. There's nothing to debate really, as no one is claiming this fits everyone.

Wannabeskinny
02-13-2014, 06:41 AM
And yes at times I felt like Peter Parker and other posters were J. Jonah Jameson. But like Peter I carry on because it is the act of helping that counts.

:nono::nono::nono: I don't live in a fantasy land so someone putting on a cloak and claiming to be a superhero is not only comical but a bit delusional. Furthermore being a superhero always sets someone up for being a villain and in the real world there are villains that are worth noting (Hitler, Assad, etc). I don't think appropriate to villainize a mother who's trying to lose 20lbs or any person who doesn't have the slightest interest in foresaking bread. Lastly, when you use "..other posters..." in a sentence it's a passive agressive way of not having a direct conversation.

People make up their minds pretty quickly about what the "right way" to lose weight is. And then they scurry off and find all supporting evidence and research that will validate and reinforce their OPINION. I cringe when someone talks about messed up metabolisms, the corn lobby, and government - not because I disagree with some of those arguments but at the great pains people go through to find a culprit to alleviate their own responsibilities.

diamondgeog, you still have not answered any question I have posed. Have you convinced your close family and friends to avoid all grains and carbs? Do you disallow your kids to eat a sandwich? Because if you haven't then the ground you're standing on is rather shaky and unpredictable. And the proof is never in weightloss, it's in maintenance.

I listen to Dr. Lustig very carefully and have never disagreed with a word that he has said. But note, he wears no cape and and people are more likely to follow someone who is backed by science than "look at me I'm such a success" logic. The latter is just an infomercial that has gone on 25 minutes too long.

diamondgeog
02-13-2014, 05:55 PM
This my last post in this thread. And it is all about assumptions.

I lived with grains for 48 years. I am very familiar with what grains do to me. I have not lived with grains to more and more of a degree for the last 9 months.

While it is true that I cannot say what other people feel or how their bodies work exactly. Not only is that true of everyone else. But they also can't even say how their bodies and minds do on no grains unless they have ever done it. All they can ever have is assumptions until they do.

I have exceeded my wildest dreams this past 9 months in terms of health, vitality, strength, endurance, mood, clarity of mind, and yes weight loss.

And all of that was because I was able to give up many of my long held assumptions.

Assumption 1: No way I can go wheat free, much less grain free. I was playing tennis a year ago. Someone on court mentioned they had to be wheat free. I had three reactions...wow that must be impossible. Two I could never do that. Three wow that is amazing you are able to accomplish that. At that time I would have bet a million dollars against me being able to do it. But as I researched and person after person said how powerful it can be, I let go of my assumption and tried.

Assumption 2: I just need to control calories, exert more willpower, change my relationship to food, and I can have anything I want in moderation and this is the key to weight loss success. The more I researched the more people said the foods you choose can be radically working against you. You can be consuming huge amounts of food but still starving your body because the food just gets stored and is low nutritional value. I decided to listen to this advice this time. And my appetite went down, and down, and down.

Assumption 3: Whole grain is good and/or necessary. We switched out to whole grain years ago. Pasta and bread. And it had to say 100% whole grain. I am putting a couple of links at the bottom of the page that are mind blowing if you have a mind to challenge your assumptions. It turns out that at best grains are not a very efficient food source. They have nothing essential you can't get elsewhere. They also keep a lot of their nutrients bound and unusable. And then there are a whole host of impacts that people are starting to become aware of.

Assumption 4: But I eat grains all the time and I am fine. This is a big one. Great. Awesome. Happen for people. But even someone who is at goal weight and strong and active, until they give up grains say 4 to 6 months, really get it out of them. Or at least a month. They have nothing to compare it to. Maybe many people have done that and it didn't work. And that is great. But until you try it is just an assumption that it wouldn't be even better without grains.

These links are wonderful. I started this thread because people around the Internet taking the time to post transformed my life. I cannot believe how much healthier I am now. And I wanted to past it on. But this thread has become a very big drag. I am sure it is a drag for many people. Wannabe's very first post was an attack, if she hasn't taken it down, and it just mucked up the whole thread. Nothing about ideas just carb police this, you talk to your co-worker like that. Unnecessary. So unnecessary. So this is my last post.

Read these or don't. But if you eat grains please at least research them. Ask if they are nutritional. Ask if humans eat them. Ask if they are essential. Find out the glycemic index of whole wheat. By all means eat them if you wish, but at least research them somewhere.

http://detoxinista.com/2012/04/going-grain-free/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/top-8-most-common-reactions-to-your-grain-free-diet-and-how-to-respond/#axzz2tDmypiwC

Suzanne 3FC
02-13-2014, 06:13 PM
We appreciate that everyone has shared their personal experiences with and without grains. It's good to show that our experiences are unique and we should all work to find what works for us as individuals. This thread has gone a bit off topic, so we think it's best to close it for now. Thanks :)