Weight Loss Support - fruit. all the sad faces in the world.




stimkovs
07-24-2012, 08:49 AM
hi chickies, i need some advice!

okay- so i'm currently giving my body a bit of a break, it's been a long rough path, im tired. i have a situation that is a little out of my control right now, and i cannot deal with calorie counting, so i am doing the intuitive eating thing.

i am mindful of portions/ what i am eating- and i've been doing this long enough to know how it works, but i am not being obsessive, i need that mental downtime.

i am no longer in a huge "weight loss thing" right now, but i would like to get rid of some visceral fat around my tummy. i have the dreaded stomach flap. i practice a lot of yoga, and sporadically do the "300s" - 10 sets/30 reps of various ab exercises. i do this 1-3 times a week.

so i have been looking at some body building websites, mostly pertaining to nutrition. i have a bad spine injury (Caused by yoga) and will need to be taking it a litte bit easier for a while, i hope to supplement with a little running here and there, but i am in no way ready to lift, or go to the gym yet (simply because i pay A LOT for the studio i go to, and i do not want to pay another monthly membership, cutting yoga is not an option lol).

anyways, so as i was reading this nutrition stuff- i realized that body builders/ those who have very little visceral/body fat, hardly if ever eat fruit.

so i did some research. essentially, sugar (Fructose) from fruits, affects the blood sugar levels, and when your blood sugar is spiked your body doesn't burn fat, but just burns the sugar in your blood- that is what i can narrow it down to.

i love fruit. i generally eat 3-4 servings of fruit a day, and i am going to supplement some of my fruit.

ex: todays "feeding" plan

coffee +skim
oatmeal + blueberries.

(usually would have been a peice of fruit with yogurt here) but instead, 3 oz chicken breast+ steamed cauliflower + baby carrots

spaghetti squash + shrimp+ mushrooms

dinner is TBD but some sort of fish/chicken with steamed veg or veg grilled in PAM or maybe sweet potato.

peice of fruit (to be replaced with something else?? maybe a boiled egg?).

what do you chickies thing of the whole fruit thing?
also- do my replacements kind of look okay? i know it's a tonne of protein lol


clh99002
07-24-2012, 09:06 AM
Unfortunately, sad but true. There is a lot of sugar in fruit. Perhaps you can replace it with a low sugar/low calorie protein shake to fill you and give you lasting energy?

Good luck! My husband is a fruit farmer...so giving up fruit with the Ideal Protein diet has been challenging but doable.

stimkovs
07-24-2012, 09:34 AM
AAHHH. so sad. i love fruit.

do you eat any at all?

i find that i get super cranky when my blood sugar does funny things.

i mean, i have cut/nearly cut so many things- i just don't know what to eat anymore !!Lol

things i've cut/cutting/shouldn't be eating (But still eat with a lot of moderation)
- wheat
- dairy
- and now fruit?

that just leaves protein, complex carbs/grains and veg. or am i missing something? lol


Breannaj1215
07-24-2012, 10:24 AM
Hmmmm I love fruit. And since ive been eating better fruit feels like a treat to me. But eventually id like to cut down on it because of the sugar. Maybe limit your fruit if your still going to have it?

clh99002
07-24-2012, 10:31 AM
AAHHH. so sad. i love fruit....that just leaves protein, complex carbs/grains and veg. or am i missing something? lol

That's right...but I have had friends who have been very successful on the "caveman diet" which I believes allows fruit.

Northernrose
07-24-2012, 10:33 AM
It's about balance & context, I think. A piece of fruit with or after a meal with plenty of protein & steady release carbs is fine. An apple as a mid-afternoon snack is fine. A giant bowl of fruit salad & nothing else on an empty stomach is probably not fine. Also, if you're worried, consider cutting the fruit portion in half - it's surprising how quickly half an apple / banana seems normal.

krampus
07-24-2012, 11:10 AM
It's about balance & context, I think. A piece of fruit with or after a meal with plenty of protein & steady release carbs is fine. An apple as a mid-afternoon snack is fine. A giant bowl of fruit salad & nothing else on an empty stomach is probably not fine. Also, if you're worried, consider cutting the fruit portion in half - it's surprising how quickly half an apple / banana seems normal.

I like this idea. Pairing fruit with protein is likely not going to make you feel like you feel two hours after eating a bagel.

carpediem
07-24-2012, 11:36 AM
If you want to reduce fat you have to create a calorie deficit. If fruit is a trigger for you so it lowers your blood sugar and you crash or it makes you crave other sugars I would say that it is better if you reduce it otherways I think you will be fine. I am in the 120s and I still eat 2-3 fruits a day and I am seeing good results with strength training and eating more protein but with the KEY in mind which is whole calorie consumption.

As with exercise, I would say if you want to have the leanness or a body similar to a person that lifts weight, you have to lift weights, if you want to look like a runner, run or if you want to look like a yogi just do yoga. I think you enjoy yoga a lot so just try to incorporate some lifting to your routine starting with some body weight movements at least. If you have problems with your spine talk to a doctor first though.

bettyboop56
07-24-2012, 11:54 AM
the fruit thing makes me nervous too on some diets you can have berries but still there is the sugar. I am a carb counter mostly and trying the protien shakes to get myself into IP.

Munchy
07-24-2012, 11:58 AM
I usually have one piece of fruit per day (between breakfast and lunch), but if I have a sweet craving at night - rarely - I'll make banana ice cream (http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-creamy-ice-cream-w-93414) and I don't beat myself up about it.

Most of the time my night snacks are popcorn, TJ turkey jerky, nuts, or a piece of sharp cheese with wasa or akmak.

ERHR
07-24-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm a low-carber and I eat two 0.5 cup servings of fruit a day on average, but I only eat certain types - avocado, tomato, and berries (usually blackberries) - and really limit the quantity. Berries are an amazing superfood - always making those "best foods" lists for their nutrients but they are actually pretty low-sugar and have a bit of fiber. I think your substitutions and pairing with protein ideas are great and I don't think you need to give up fruit entirely, but just the fruits that are basically only sugar-water (grapes, oranges, melon, apples).

sontaikle
07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
I like this idea. Pairing fruit with protein is likely not going to make you feel like you feel two hours after eating a bagel.

It works! When I workout in the morning (which since I'm on summer break is happening often) I've found that my small breakfasts sometimes aren't enough, but having just carbs doesn't leave me much either.

Two eggs, some veggies and a piece of fruit is the PERFECT workout fuel for me. I have the energy for an awesome workout and I'm not hungry until hours after :)

stimkovs
07-24-2012, 01:49 PM
clh99002 - in theory, it makes a lot of sense.
in reality, it's 1:35 pm. i've had 2 lg coffees (working on a 3rd - will explain why in a sec). oatmeal/blueberries, 3oz chicken- 4 oz veg, and then my mushroom/spaghetti squash/shrimp concoction. IM DYING. i work at a desk job (with mind numbing work), i am STUFFED, but have 0 energy, so i ventured out for another coffee. in your experience, is this an "adjustment curve" to the lack of fruit sugar?

northernrose thank you!! i will try- even after i eat, i usually crave something sweet. i do NOT eat refined sugars at all, so lots of splenda/ fruit sugars. i also eat very little slow processing carbs- mainly my breakfast oatmeal

healthylifestyle lol 3 portions makes sense, mind you now when we go to the grocery store and lets say, buy one apple, even the smallest to be found in the store- that's usually 2 servings. i would say i am currently eating 5-8 servings of veg, and 4-5 servings of fruit a day (i eat low caloric density, high volume foods- because i would simply rather eat quantity over quality). what kinds of fruits were you eating? i want to aim for 2-3 servings a day!

krampus me too! will be sure to try!

carpediem caloric deficits and visceral fat, at this stage in my PERSONAL game are no longer correlated unfortunately. currently, i am in the top range for my body. i have 2 sore sports left, which i cannot spot reduce, they are both visceral fat deposits, my lower tummy, and my inner thighs. while women carry visceral fat on the inner thighs, my stomach is leftovers from days of obiesity. while "yoga" seems as a very mild activity to must, i assure you, it is not, and highly suggest googling bikram yoga. at this point in the game, i lose stregth/muscle with any further caloric deficit (i operate on about a -800 on most days, sometimes higher). therefore- i am looking to use stored fat as energy, and protein to fuel the growing muscle.

munchy that's exactly where i was having fruit as well. with oatmeal, between bfast and lunch, and then after dinner/before yoga. it's funny, because pre-bikram my body always goes into "OMG YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME SWEAT LIKE A PIG IN A FREAKING FLEECE JACKET, I WANT OUT SO GIVE ME FRUIT ENERGY". which is obviously an upgrade from the time it wanted carbs, although i do find that i perform better on complex carbs. maybe pre-yoga dinner should now be oatmeal/complex carbs and some protein? hmmm.

ERHRGool call on the berries! i eat lots of blueberries and strawberries (they are cheap, and superfoods simultaneously, as well as i try to have atleast 1 small banana 4-5 days a week because of the potassium and muscle repair properties. unfortunately my favourite fruits are papayas(which are high sugar, but low cal), watermelons, and mangos. UGH

sontaikkle that's what i do on weekends! unfortunately, i work all day right now, and don't get to the studio until 8 pm, which kind of messes with the food rotations!

krampus
07-24-2012, 02:08 PM
stimkovs, what are your natural hunger patterns? Would intermittent fasting be an option? I'm not a natural breakfast eater and my blood sugar stays pretty baseline unless I eat bagels or maple syrup, etc.

I too am stuck at a desk from 9-5. I just don't eat until 2 or 3, and then I'm nice and FULL until dinner because I have a humongous lunch with on average of 40-50 grams of protein. I'm sorta hungry from maybe 11-2 but nothing that affects my ability to be productive on the job (lots of sitting, internetting, you know). It also makes the work day seem to go faster since lunch is "in the middle" of the day.

seagirl
07-24-2012, 02:17 PM
I would be dying with that too! Very carb heavy. I usually have 5-6 ounces of chicken (3 oz is only 95 calories) to keep me full for lunch. Maybe try eggs in the morning for protein instead of oatmeal (carbs) and berries (carbs and sugar.) Spaghetti is carbs. All of that will leave you very sleepy. Protein will keep you full but not stuffed.

are you drinking enough water? dehydration makes me sleepy. what do you put in your coffee?

clh99002
07-24-2012, 02:25 PM
stimkovs you could be tired from the change...have you considered cutting caffeine out of your diet? I have been off caffeine for two weeks and increased my water to half of my body weight in ounces (~75oz per day) and have felt a major improvement and stability in energy. Of course you have to get over caffeine withdrawal :-(

Arctic Mama
07-24-2012, 02:42 PM
Oh, it sucks but you stumbled on a truism - excess fructose negatively impacts body composition via the insulin spikes it causes.

Ways to minimize that are to eat your fruit with fat or protein (like berries with cream or grapefruit AND eggs for a breakfast instead of just a fruit and a starch (which is terrible for your blood sugar and subsequent insulin levels, even if it is nutritious and within your calories).

I used to eat 3-5 servings of fruit per day. But when I built my meals around fat, protein, and dense veggies, I was usually not hungry enough to want fruit, so it was relegated to snack/dessert. I probably eat one, max two servings a day now, and enjoy it MUCH more. When I switched around what I was eating the desire for excess carbohydrate, in general, dropped big time. That included fruit cravings!

kaplods
07-24-2012, 02:54 PM
Eliminating fruit and even grains, entirely is probably something most people don't have to do. However, even many seemingly "healthy foods" can be unhealthy for some people. Some people may have to eliminate fruits and grains, or at least drastically limit them.

I'm finding that I have to cut grains and fruit more than I would have ever expected, and I have to pair the carby foods with fat and protein or I tend to become very hungry shortly after eating them. Fruit isn't as much as a problem as fruit on an empty stomach. That becomes a binge-trigger for me, because shortly after eating fruit alone, I end up with an insatiable hunger about an hour later.

I spent many years eating mostly "healthy" foods and yet maintaining a wieght of nearly 400 lbs. I was never much of a junk food fan, but I ate ridiculously large portions of "healthy foods." I ate a lot of foods that seemed healthy, but really weren't, at least for me. Too much fruit, too much brown rice, still translates into excess weight as a result of excess calories.

Fruit can be a binge-trigger food for me, so I have to be careful with it. I do make an exception for Ranier cherry season (every year, I abandon my exchange plan for a few days and eat ridiculous amounts of cherries, until I get sick. I don't usually gain any weight, and often lose weight during my cherry binges, but I suffer for it with some digestive-system distress).

Watermelon I have to be very careful with, because I love it even more than Ranier cherries, but the season is much longer so ggenerally can't afford to do more than one or two days per summer of watermelon bingeing. Instead, I incorporate watermelon into my exchange plan.

I have been doing fine with 3 to 4 servings of fruit (a serving being one fruit exchange - which is 70 calories of fruit), and two servings of starch (I do best when the starch exchanges are from non-gluten grain sources such as sweet potato and grains/pseudo grains like wild rice or quinoa).

Although I think I've reached a weight plateau, so I have to eliminate a few exchanges to bring down my calories and carb/calorie ratio. I've decided to bring my calories down by about 300 calories, eliminating a fruit, a starch, and a couple fat exchanges.

For me carb proportion is at least as important as calories - so protein calories wouldn't be the best calories to eliminate, especially since too high a carbohydrate ratio and my hunger increases exponentially.


I like using an exchange plan because in theory I CAN eat anything I can account for, but in PRACTICE, I try to use paleo principles in filling those exchanges, because I'm far less hungry and have fewer health issue symptoms (my health is a mess).

Even though honey, fruit, and some other carbs are paleo-foods, a true paleo diet shouldn't include large amounts of these foods, because they were incredibly rare in the paleo diet - and usually took quite a bit of work to harvest. Carb-ratios may even be the most important factor to paleo diets being successful for weight loss and health improvements. The nutrient and macronutrient ratios probably is far more important than whether the individual foods are remotely like those availabe in Paleo times. This may be why some paleo diets o not include honey (a paleo-food, though one that would be eaten very rarely if ever), but DO include Splenda and whey protein (which aren't remotely paleo).

Geez, how do I end up in these rambling posts.... sorry. My main point is that we're all left to trial and error to find which foods make our lives better and easier in the long run. "Problem foods" can be remarkeably different for one person over another. One person can eat unlimitted amounts of fruits, veggies, and whole grains and lose weight like mad (maybe their trigger food was fat). Another person may have to limit fruit and/or grains to lose weight (maybe their trigger foods are sugars and/or other carbs).

To find you own best eating pattern, you have to experiment. One of the reasons I love exchange plans, is that they make the experimenting much easier. When I wasn't "counting" my fruit and grain servings (and was only counting calories), it wasn't obvious that I would benefit from eating fewer.

If I tried low-carb, I couldn't really tell whether I was losing because I was eating fewer carbs, or whether I was losing only because of eating fewer calories (some would say it didn't matter as long as I was losing).

However, by using exchange plans, I was able to see, in black-and-white, that I lost more weight on 1800 calories of a lower-carb plan than on 1800 calories of a higher-carb plan. Dropping or exchanging different types of exchanges helped me see and compare the differences more clearly. Since I was also writing down health issue symptoms, I was surprised to learn that the same foods that intefered with weight loss were also the same foods that triggered health symptom flares.

With modern analyzation software, you can do much the same without having to count exchanges. However, I like having a low-tech system, because I can take it anywhere (of course if I had a smartphone that wouldn't be a problem).

Though even with an analyzation program, I think exchange plans still have an advantage over "straight" calorie counting.

Arctic Mama
07-24-2012, 02:56 PM
Amen to the modern analyzation software! I don't know what I'd do without these excellent tools for calculating out food quantities, types, and portions. Macronutrient and micronutrient ratios can also be super helpful if trying to troubleshoot a deficit or stall.

stimkovs
07-24-2012, 03:46 PM
krampus hey, i do what i often refer to as "baby IF", i usually eat by 7 pm latest, and don't have breakfast (Aside from the first coffee and a half) until sometime between 8 30 and 9 30, when i get to work and I am settled in. generally, i feel hunger more after i eat, thanks body, really, THANK YOU (eye roll obviously). (keep in mind, i wake up at 6, leave the house at 7, get to work at 8 30, leave at 4 30, get home at 6...bonus points for 11 hour days). i find that i usually eat everything i eat for lunch before 1 pm (i'd say 2/3rd of my calories - i have found that "Front loading" my calories works better then saving them for dinner).

seagirl very low carb actually, not on purpose. spaghetti squash is veg based, and used as a substitute for spaghetti products. i drink about 3-4 litres of water a day, and i have my coffee 2 milk 2 sweetner (in a lg) in a coffee shop bought coffee, or about 150 ml of skim milk for 24oz of coffee, 2 spoonfulls of splenda.

clh99002. coffee, and the occassional cupcake are non negotiable. i am willing to, and flexible in changing all other aspects of my "feeding" as i no longer see food as something to indulge in, and try my hardest to not obsess, but the occassional dessert is what brings a unparallel joy to me- not a binge risk. caffiene, is also necessary due to having 18 hour days lol - also medically proven to be beneficial.

arcticmama EXACTLY= it's also what creates that little pot belly look as opposed to the nice sunken in tummy. which is clearly what everybody is aiming for. grapefruit and eggs sounds delicious- deffinately a snack for tomorrow, i feel like the chicken/broc today was a little too early in the morning and not appetizing at all. what does your meal plan look like now? when are you eating your fruit in comparison to being physically active?

kaplods trial and error right? and the fun part is when you find something that works, and it stops working so you have to trial and error at it again! guess that's what keeps it interesting?

Arctic Mama
07-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Well I'm a SAHM, so while I am on my feet and buzzing around all day, my workout block is in the afternoon, after lunch and while my kids nap.

I generally fast until about 10 am or noon, at the latest, and break fast with coffee/sf coffee syrup/1tbsp heavy whipping cream and two hardboiled eggs. That's enough to satisfy my sweet tooth and fuel me well.

Lunch is usually a big salad with avocado, mushroom, peppers, carrot, hardboiled egg, maybe some crumbled bacon or cheese, and some homemade salad dressing. That's usually enough and I'm stuffed, though I will eat a chicken thigh (skin on, thanks!) if I'm still hungry.

After workout if I am hungry I will have some brazil nuts (yay selenium!) and grapefruit or a half cup of frozen berries with a tbsp of heavy whipping cream sweetened with Erythritol or stevia.

My favorite dinner is rib eye steak (usually 4-6 oz) broiled with garlic salt and pepper, and then topped with mushrooms sautéed in a tbsp each of butter and white wine or sherry. If I'm very hungry I'll add to that a cup or two of broccoli and an apple, but it's rare tht doesn't fill me up. Dessert would be some dark chocolate if I wanted it.

This is low to very low carb, almost no sugar, and super filling. No cravings, no hunger, plenty of energy for my day.

freelancemomma
07-24-2012, 07:50 PM
so i did some research. essentially, sugar (Fructose) from fruits, affects the blood sugar levels, and when your blood sugar is spiked your body doesn't burn fat, but just burns the sugar in your blood- that is what i can narrow it down to.

I respectfully disagree with this. If you consume less fuel than your body needs, your body has no choice but to get some of its energy needs from your stored fat.

Remember the professor who lost weight on a Twinkie diet? If you ate nothing but 800 calories of fruit per day, you WOULD lose weight. Not that I'm advocating such a diet, but I would be cautious about laying the blame for a weight loss stall on fruit. Some people enjoy the discipline of restricting their foods, but if you enjoy fruit, there's absolutely no reason not to have it, IMO.

F.

Arctic Mama
07-24-2012, 08:23 PM
The evidence on fructose's impact on fat storage, especially that which has come out in the past three years, is pretty compelling. While energy deficit is part of the equation, ignoring the hormonal impact of food is to one's detriment, especially when overall health is concerned.

kaplods
07-24-2012, 08:45 PM
Weight loss always does boil down to burning more calories than you're taking in, but this doesn't mean that all calories burn equally. We can never control the calories out as precisely as the calories in.

And some calories we don't absorb at all (you can eat all the hay you want, and you're still going to starve to death on it, because unlike a termite, a cow, or a blazing bonfire, you can't burn the calories in celulose fiber).

Anything that will burn has calories, but our bodies don't burn everything. Some calories come out of the body as intact as when they went in (so technically those calories were taken in, but never burned).

So the "real" equation is calories taken in, minus calories burned, minus calories that weren't burned, but were excreted intact.

The calories burned and the calories excreted but not burned, aren't easily determined except by inference. If we're losing weight, we can assume we're burning and excreting more than we're taking in - but without sophisticated lab equipment we can't determine how much is burned/excreted (and essentially your body fluids and waste would have to be burned in a calorimeter to determine how many calories were excreted intact).

We tend to assume that calories burned is a constant, but it's not. What we burn is dependent upon many variables including what we're burning. I never fully realized this until I discovered that I lose significantly more weight on1800 calories of low-carb than on 1800 calories of highicarb. (Several folks here told me that I must have an unusual metabolism to see such a significant difference, but a recent study - I'll have to find the citation to post if I can - found that 300 calories was actually the average amount of "extra" calories burned on low-carb compared to a low-fat diet. So it looks like I may be average, afterall).

I didn't conclude this after an experiment of one week or even one month. Months of data (my exchange plan food and exercise logs) convinced me that I lose more weight on the same calorie level of low-carb vs. high-carb. Even when the carbs are coming from fruit and other healthy foods.

Now it's true that I would still lose weight on high-carb if I created enough of a calorie deficit, but I would have to eat even less (or exercise more) and I would have to be hungrier doing it (because I find that I am much hungrier on high-carb, to the point that I'm less hungry on 800 calories of very low-carb than on 6,000 calories of high-carb - I'm not advocating either extreme of course). So it makes sense on several levels for me to restrict carbs.

That doesn't mean I SHOULD eat no-carb, even if it does reduce my hunger to virtually nil - because there are negative side effects of eating too few carbs (at least for some of us). Too few carbs and I am not a nice person to be around. I have near-constant nausea and headaches and for some mysterious reason my hubby becomes the biggest @#$%weed on the planet (I concede that it may be my attitude rather than anything hubby is actually doing, but I usually won't admit this to him).



The twinkie scientist really ticks me off, because he didn't prove anything by proving that a person COULD lose weight on twinkies (did any of us really believe that a person couldn't lose weight on a twinkie diet - if calories were restricted ENOUGH. Like eating one twinkie a day would somehow make a person gain weight? Of course not, we're not idiots).

What the twinkie guy did NOT prove was that he would have lost no better on the same calorie-alottment of healthier food. He also didn't prove that he could have STAYED on the twinkie diet without counting calories and continued to lose weight, or that eating junk food didn't have other terrible consequences that would have made staying on the diet impractical.

I can lose weight on any diet if I restrict calories ENOUGH, but I don't have to restrict calories as much on low-carb. I like being able to eat a little more AND feeling exponentially less hungry on low-carb. It's a win-win for me. I COULD lose weight on the all-fruit diet (and I have done so in the past) but it would be at the expense of constant hunger, I'd have to cut calories more drastically to lose the same amount of weight, and I'd feel like crap).

Most of us can cut calories drastically enough to lose weight - on any type of food. It's finding a WOE that is sustainable and comfortable that is the REAL challenge of weight loss.

And sadly that's NOT been the focus of much if any research. No one is asking the RIGHT questions, in terms of finding which food plans are the most sustainable in the long-term. We want to know which diet causes the fastest and most weight loss, not which diets have the most positive and least negative consequences. We don't care about the factors that are probably the most salient.

The researchers are starting to ask the right questions, such as looking for and discovering that there is a metabolic advantage to low-carb for many folks. 2000 calories of low-carb is not equal to 2000 calories of high-carb for everyone.

This is revolutionary information, because it proves that what we eat really does matter in the long-run not only for health, but yes, even for weight loss.

The "calorie is a calorie" myth has been disproven. Not all calories are equal (at the very least, fiber calories don't "count" because humans can't digest them).

And yet many calorie counters still include the calories in fiber, which has the sad effect of making high-fiber foods seem higher than they functionally are... and some people may choose oreos over healthier foods that have fewer useable calories, because the calorie count they're using for the high-fiber food isn't taking into the count the undigestible carbohydrate, fiber.

There's a lof of misinformation that is accepted as gospel truth when it comes ot weight loss. I've had doctors, not just ordinary folk, accuse me of lying about what I was eating, because "no one gains weight on the types of food" I said I was eating. I had to be lying about not eating sweets and junk food, because "no one gains weight on fruit, vegetables, and whole grains." "Everyone knows it's junk food that causes weight gain."

Boloney! It's possible to gain weight on any type of food if you're eating more than you're burning. Sure you have to eat MORE fruit than candybars to gain weight, but it is definitely possible (and I have done it).

I haven't gained weight on an all-fruit diet (I expect because of the resulting diarrhea), but I have STALLED weight loss on an all-fruit diet (but to do it, I ate more fruit than most people probably have the stomach capacity for, and I also suffered some pretty nasty intestinal distress as a result).

Calories is the bottom line for weight control, but calories have very little to do with what makes a diet sustainable in the long-run, and that's the really important issue - not how to create a calorie deficit, but how to do it in a way that you can sustain for a lifetime.

TERAPET
07-24-2012, 10:39 PM
I love fruit. It would be awful to give it up,especially in the summer. I would much rather give up meat.

JohnP
07-24-2012, 10:43 PM
This is a very interesting thread .... plenty to cover but since I don't type 3000 words a minute I'll keep it brief.

1) Visceral fat is not the fat you see on your belly and legs. Visceral fat is the fat that is around your internal organs. It is the most "dangerous" fat because it increases the pressure on your internal organs. Subcutaneous fat is the kind we see.

2) It is not logical to say that bodybuilders don't eat fruit and don't have body fat therefore fruit makes you fat or causes belly fat. This is pretty rediculous. I can give you many reasons but the primary reason is that most men carry their fat in their belly so if you see a six pack it is because they have 11-12% body fat or lower. If you want to get to a low body fat where you look like a bodybuilder most people are going to have to go through a massive amount of effort and fruit has nothing to do with it.

3) Fructose is processed directly through the liver and doesn't spike insulin. Fructose (and insulin) has been demonized and just like other things that have been demonized fructose (and insulin) is not the problem. Too much fructose is bad but in the context of a hypocaloric diet you can eat all the fruit you want. Just check out the 80/10/10 diet. Essentially it is an all fruit diet. Yes - you eat only fruit and yes you will lose weight if you follow it because calories dictate fat loss or gain - not fruit. (By the way I think the 80/10/10 diet is stupid and I am not advocating it just making a point that you can only eat so much fruit in a day)

Bottom line is this - if you like fruit - eat it in moderation.

Keep it simple people!:?:

JohnP
07-24-2012, 10:52 PM
And sadly that's NOT been the focus of much if any research. No one is asking the RIGHT questions, in terms of finding which food plans are the most sustainable in the long-term. We want to know which diet causes the fastest and most weight loss, not which diets have the most positive and least negative consequences. We don't care about the factors that are probably the most salient.

The researchers are starting to ask the right questions, such as looking for and discovering that there is a metabolic advantage to low-carb for many folks. 2000 calories of low-carb is not equal to 2000 calories of high-carb for everyone.


I completely agree that the research that is being done for the most part is completely rediculous but I want to clarify a point which I already know you're aware of. (Highlighted the key words that the average poster might over look)

Some people have a metabolic advantage to a low carb diet due to the output side of the equation being different (insulin resistant person) while others have a metabolic disadvantage on a low carb diet for the opposite reason. (Insulin sensative)

But we live in a world where consumer reports says the best weight loss program is Jenny Craig because a Jenny Craig funded study where people were given free food if they stuck to the program.:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

Arctic Mama
07-24-2012, 11:24 PM
Sorry John, I was rereading my post and you're correct that fructose has the most negative impact on the liver (and a very low toxicity threshhold) but it also causes insulin release, as ALL food does - I was not as clear as I could have been in the interest of speed, but I don't want to sacrifice context and content just to be quick.

And fructose in the context of whole fruit is a double whammy, because the sucrose and/or glucose it resides alongside impact insulin (and therefore fat storage) while the fructose puts a load on the liver. A little fruit, especially in the context of a meal, is good. But in isolation (like just fruit for a snack) or excess of it is very problematic for those of us with metabolic syndrome or the hormonal dysfunction leading up to it.

That was I think what myself and the OP were getting at, regarding research we have recently read :)

collingwood
07-24-2012, 11:53 PM
I used to have a lot of fruit, especially at work, but now I'm doing my own thing which is basically a low carb, high protein type of diet. I have Fridays off which means I will allow myself to eat what ever I want, it means my body doesn't get use to a set thing, it gets a shock once a week. After the first one which I had a chicken souvlaki, I felt like I ate a brick and it was heavy in my stomach, so generally I don't go too far away from what I'm doing the majority of the time. I love eating cereals which are high in fibre and carbs, so that's something I will eat on my day off along with things like rice or spaghetti.

I only have diet sodas now, diet cordials and Candy with no sugar if I'm feeling like something like that. Also a very handy option I'm having is Atkins bars, I don't have them every day, but maybe 1 every second day and I have a Caramel Nut Chew Bar which does the job in giving me a nice fix without doing damage.

Alwaysbeenbig
07-25-2012, 06:20 AM
The thing with fruit is that you do have to be careful of what type you eat and how you eat it.

A whole red apple, peel and all, actually contains a lot of fibre and because of this fibre not all of the fructose that is actually in the fruit will be absorbed. This is because of the amount of digestion that has to occur to get to the fructose.

Above and beyond that there are some minerals and vitamins that are essential for your body to function normally and you may miss out on those if you don't include some of these fruits in your diet.

I agree that because we are trying to lose weight we want to limit some foods, and fruit can often be one of them. What I would suggest is that you look as some of the fruit and pick something that is seasonal and that you can eat whole. Look at the fibre content and the fructose content.

Finally make a decision that you are happy with. If you find that you can successfully lose weight while still including say 1.5 to 2 servings of fruit in your diet per day I would say that is a good thing as it sets you up for a more sustainable maintenance stage, but if you would like to limit it for a while just be conscious of some of the vitamins that you may miss out on.

JossFit
07-25-2012, 04:26 PM
... Just throwing this out there, but I eat several servings of fruit each day and my abdominal fat is non-existent... Seriously...

Exhale15
07-25-2012, 04:39 PM
fruit is not an enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

kaplods
07-25-2012, 05:13 PM
fruit is not an enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


Whoppers aren't an enemy either. Personally I don't eat such burgers often, maybe three or four times a year at most (well, now I throw away the bun, because I have some unpleasant reactions to wheat. Not sure if it's an actual allergy, and I tested negative for celiac disease, but when I eat it, the next day my face, hands, and feet are swollen and itchy and I feel kind of like I have a mild flu or something - so no wheat).

Even with my reaction to wheat, I wouldn't say wheat is my enemy either - it's just not that great for me.

And while fruit is not my enemy, it isn't my friend either. It's just a food I have to eat sensibly (that goes for the Whoppers too, though sensible fruit-eating looks a whole lot different than sensible Whopper eating. I choose to eat a Whopper or similar burger a few times a year, and I calculate it into my exchange plan. Fruit I eat daily, but I also fit it into my exchange plan.

However, there was absolutely nothing sensible about the way I used to eat fruit (and occasionally still do, though I'm a lot smarter now, so fruit-binges are rare). No one needs to eat 3/4 of a large watermelon in a single day. Or three pounds of Ranier cherries.

Because Ranier cherry season is short, I do allow myself a cherry-binge or two (and while I know the fruit isn't an enemy, it sure can SEEM like an enemy when the intese stomache cramps and explosive diarrhea hits).

The problem with even the most "healthy" foods is that "sensible" is entirely dependent upon the situation and the individual.

If you're literally starving to death, a whopper is healthier than an orange.

If you've only been eating low-protein fruit, the whopper still might be healthier than an orange.

It's all context. If you have diabetes or blood sugar issues, unlimited fruit is not your friend (not your enemy either - just a food you have to incorporate, if you can into the diet that's best for you).


Most modern fruit is unlike any that grows in the wild though. Over ten to fifteen thousand years of selective horticulture, we've grown fruit AND vegetables to have far more sugar and carbohydrates and far less (phenomenally less) fiber.

That doesn't make fruit (or any food) an "enemy" it just means that no food is "healthy" except in the context of the individual - dependent upon the rest of the diet, and the individual's current health status and health needs.

I don't anyone here has vilified fruit, just pointed out some contexts in which unlimited fruit is not healthy or conducive to weight loss.

milmin2043
07-26-2012, 03:18 AM
I respectfully disagree with this. If you consume less fuel than your body needs, your body has no choice but to get some of its energy needs from your stored fat.

Remember the professor who lost weight on a Twinkie diet? If you ate nothing but 800 calories of fruit per day, you WOULD lose weight. Not that I'm advocating such a diet, but I would be cautious about laying the blame for a weight loss stall on fruit. Some people enjoy the discipline of restricting their foods, but if you enjoy fruit, there's absolutely no reason not to have it, IMO.

F.

I agree with this. I am vegan and eat basically fruits and vegetables. I don't keep track of either, I just eat them when I'm hungry. I have not gained weight and maintained my weightloss for 17 months. Like kaplods said, it's different for everyone.

Serenity100
07-26-2012, 06:07 AM
Some fruits have more carbs than others. Since it is the summer and berries, which are the lowest carbs, are in abundance, you can have your fruit and still see if eating lower carb will reduce your belly fat. Cherries and cantaloupe are other fruits with lower carbs than others. Bananas and Pineapples have higher carbs. My daughter drinks coconut water to get the potassium and other same benefits of bananas without the carbs.

stimkovs
07-26-2012, 08:51 AM
hey chickies (and chick-os? ha ha...sorry lots of caffiene).

i've been impressively busy at work (i know right??) so i can't really sit down and post a long, drawn out reply- but thank you very much for the information, i have read and considered all of it, kind of frustrating that there isn't a simple template right? but then i guess it would just be too easy.

i think my personal issue, and what it really comes down to, is moderation.

i have an addictive personality, and a huge dopamine defficiency - which essentially means if you find something tasty/feel good- you naturally get addicted to it because of the seratonin/dopamine releases. (seriously, i could get addicted to a pet rock if it felt nice and fuzzy) - this causes me to have issues staying in moderation with things- also why i eat very low calorie, high volume foods.

i am going to try to keep it at 2-3 servings of fruit a day.

thank you for all of the wonderful, thought out input <3

JohnP
07-26-2012, 01:13 PM
... kind of frustrating that there isn't a simple template right? but then i guess it would just be too easy.

That's not true there is a very simple template that will work for almost everyone if they follow it.

Eat meat, vegtables, and some fruit. If you eat these things it would be pretty tough for most people not to lose weight.

I'm not saying it would be easy for everyone to radically change their diet in this fasion since most people are eating mostly processed garbage and fast food but that template is very simple and for most would result in rapid weight loss.

Dragonfly33
07-26-2012, 01:38 PM
Eat no more than 2 servings of fruit a day and pair it with a protein. I am diabetic and was also under the assumption that fruit was high in sugar and BAD. I now stick to berries, apples and grapefruit mostly and I have cottage cheese or another protein with it. I do not feel hungry and my blood sugar is normal since eating this way. It hasn't stalled my weight loss as far as I can tell but I only weigh myself once every 2 weeks or so.

kaplods
07-26-2012, 01:45 PM
There are a lot of simple templates, you just have to choose one and try it. If it works great, there you go. If it works poorly, choose another and try it. If it works good to ok, and you want to tweak and experiment with the template, then go ahead.

I've been using a simple template (a high-protein, lowish carb exchange plan like the ones on frugalabundance.com) and over time have made a few adjustments, but for the most part it works great.