Ideal Protein Diet - Vegetable Comparison re: ketosis etc




mammoth357
07-16-2012, 02:54 PM
Veggies: all values are for 1 cup raw:
...............................Pro Carbs Fiber Sugar Calories

Spinach 1 cup.......... 1......1...... 1...... 0.......... 7
Swiss Chard 1 cup...... 1.......1......1.......0..........7
Collard Greens 1 cup.. 1........2......1 ......0.........11
Mushrooms 1cup....... 2........2.......1......1.........15
Turnip Greens 1 cup... 1........4.......2.......0........18
Zucchini 1 cup......... 2........4.......1.......2........20
Cabbage Savory 1 cup..1.......4.......2........2........19
Eggplant 1 cup.........1.......5.......3........2........20
Cauliflower 1 cup.........2.......5.......3........2........25
Asparagus 1 cup.......3.......5.......3........3........27
Rhubarb 1 cup.............1.......6.......2........1........ 26
Broccoli 1 cup .........3.......6.......2.........2........31
Cabbage Red 1 cup......1.......7.......2.........3........28
Turnip 1 cup cubes.......1.......8......2.........5........36
Rutabaga 1 cup cubes...2......11.....4 .........8.......50

Now how is it that Eggplant is on the "Occasional"list yet Rutabaga in on the "Select" everyday use list? (look above at their values)If you have 4 cups of Rutabaga a day, that is 200 calories and a whopping 32 grams SUGAR...

The sheet for Phase 1 that I have is dated 05/02/12
Someone please tell me what this means: from that sheet:

"Occasional (you may only choose two items per week from this list)"

OK...haha! So what's that actually mean? That you can pick 2 items, say, Snow Peas and Tomato...and have them BOTH 2 times a week (up to 4 cups of each?)? And really, how many cups of each? way too confusing!

Now back to the veggie list above:
If you have 4 cups of spinach in the day, you only get 28 total calories and 4 total carbs (0 sugars). AWESOME!
If you have 4 cups of Rutabaga in the day, you get a whopping 200 calories and a confusing 44 gram total carbs. Are they NUTS! That 32 grams SUGAR and for many people that will knock you out of ketosis. I know for me personally, ANY sugars total for the day over like 8 or 10g and I am OUT of ketosis in a NY minute! Then I can figure 3 days to get back on...I did Atkins induction for over a year (lost 100 pounds) so I "know" ketosis real well and know my body real well.

So why would a person not select the veggies that really will help them stay in ketosis, give the lowest carbs and the least sugars and maximize their program?

And more importantly, why when they make these sheets don't they split up the veggies and save people who care about all this, the work?

Obviously the person who has the 4 cups rutabaga is having 172 calories more that day then the person who has 4 cups spinach, for example.

On this program, thats HUGE! Do that for a week and you consumed 1204 calories more then the spinach eater in this example. When you only get around 735-950 (depending on if protein is chicken, shrimp, fish, sirloin etc)calories a day anyway, you just consumed 8 days worth of caloric intake in 7 days. How can that NOT make you lose less weight then what your real potential could have been. And if it knocks you out of ketosis, you will have even greater hunger, cravings etc until you get back in...

Where is that line drawn by those who compose these sheets? Do they even care about this? I mean I realize the local clinic is a business and they need to keep you buying product...but come-on!

You can read everything out there on ketosis, how many sugar carbs a day can one consume and still stay in ketosis, etc etc...and the real number is different for each of us. I think everyone should start this program and the first 2 weeks right away find out "their number"...and then a person can better select which veggies to eat and if "bars" will be OK for "them", etc...

Like I said, my "sugar number" is like 8-10g a day no matter what form or where it comes from...I also know I cannot consume most ANY sugar alcohols as for "me" they do convert to glucose and knock me out of ketosis...tomatoes will too (for me)...

So knowing my "sugar number" allows me to then select which veggies and how much of each I might have and not jeopardize my ketosis...as my shakes are "0" sugars and I don't do the protein bars and other foods that contain sugar of any amount because I can't...in this way the veggie's I choose help me lose weight and stay in ketosis.

The naturally occurring sugars in veggies will still metabolize in the liver to Glucose (which threatens our ketosis). By doing the IP program we "lower" glucose (and glucose converting foods)consumption enough that thus causes the liver to produce ketones (4 diff types)...3 types of ketones will "feed" us and nourish the brain etc...the 4th ketone type is expelled by our bodies.

So even though I am running on here,...the message is to choose your veggies smartly...if you wish to maximize your weight loss. And YES there are some people who would drop a ton of weight on this program with no regard to sugars, no regard to ketosis because any larger mammal on very low calories will lose weight, period. But doing it "right" you can lose more, and lose it much quicker.

Veggie selection can aid in that pursuit, as not all veggies are created equal even though they might share a section on the phase 1 sheet.
Just saying....

Cheers
jake


jennlnige
07-16-2012, 03:17 PM
Wish I would of saw this before I made my lunch. Chicken A LA King and 2 cups shredded trunip cooked like hashbrowns. Mixed it in with my soup. Pretty good after some seasonings. Now I see the carbs in that..eek!!! Seeing that I haven't made it into ketosis yet. Well maybe I will go with a nonrestricted for a snack. I planned on a spinach and cucumber salad with 8oz shrimp for dinner. Maybe that will make up for it.

Thanks for the info.

-Jennifer

Kaypix
07-16-2012, 03:22 PM
My initial thought is the glycemic index values. I'll try to find time in my day to research further!


Kaypix
07-16-2012, 03:28 PM
Mammoth: Also, one cup of rutabaga is 140g, whereas eggplant is only 80ish-grams, so it literally is more dense and weighs more, to me that would translate to potentially more filling?

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 03:42 PM
H Kaypix:
Agreed,would have to be much more filling...I know spinach is not filling at all! haha!

sandralosingweight
07-16-2012, 03:44 PM
Hello,

I just converted your data into a table to be visually easier to compare while waiting for an answer :)

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 03:53 PM
Rutabaga is HORRIBLE at 72 on the glycemic index and eggplant is LOW at 15...Rutabaga is much higher then even sweet potato (61 average can be higher based on variety)... even corn can average 53-72 depending on variety... .so its not the GI...

explore
07-16-2012, 04:09 PM
This is awesome information-- thank you everyone!

Porthardygurl
07-16-2012, 04:24 PM
So ive been doing reading up on ketogenic diets and it has been said by health professionals of all types that a person can eat 50-100 grams of carbohydrates in a day and maintain a state of ketosis...They say for weight loss on a ketogenic diet that maintaining your daily total carb grams for the day would mean staying at 50 or below... Just so ya know :) Dont worry too much but i do see your point! I watch what veggies i eat, cause i know they arent all equal!

BRfirefly
07-16-2012, 04:25 PM
This is very interesting. I looked up okra (I'm having that now with lunch): http://calorielab.com/foods/okra/155

Food Measure Prot Carb Fat Pts Cals
Okra, (100.0 g) 2 7 0.1 0 31

Interesting - a cup of okra is approximately 8 3" pods.

Oh I just remembered, don't we subtract the vegetable fiber from the carbs to come up with the net carbs?

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 04:35 PM
So ive been doing reading up on ketogenic diets and it has been said by health professionals of all types that a person can eat 50-100 grams of carbohydrates in a day and maintain a state of ketosis...They say for weight loss on a ketogenic diet that maintaining your daily total carb grams for the day would mean staying at 50 or below... Just so ya know :) Dont worry too much but i do see your point! I watch what veggies i eat, cause i know they arent all equal!

Thats the wonderful thing about articles...I can show you some that say 30 carbs maximum a day...example is keto.org http://www.keto.org/summary.htm where it states and I quote: "The way to make glucose (a basic sugar) unavailable, is to simply restrict carbohydrate consumption to 30g/day or less."...meanng 30g a day or less for ketosis...

Truth is it really is "individual" and each person needs to find their own "number" if they wish to maximize the potential, and of course if they even care about all this to begin with! haha!

Bdmom
07-16-2012, 05:09 PM
Something else interesting. "swede" is on the Restricted (2x/wk) list, but swede is another name for rutabaga (which on the Phase 1 sheet is unrestricted), so that's an odd inconsistency and I am wondering why it has not yet been corrected by the IP folks since it seems they are pretty vigilant in reviewing, reassessing, etc. Anyone have thoughts on that?

aimeed3
07-16-2012, 05:30 PM
ok this is scary!!

Halfagain
07-16-2012, 05:33 PM
Silly question - but 1C is 8 ounces. Can we measure our raw veggies by weight rather than how much we fit in a cup? I have not really been good at measuring things yet to be honest, and have no food scale - yet. Cubed, chopped, shredded - would make a difference on what that measurement actually is for total zuccini if I am trying to fit it in a cup.

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 05:43 PM
1 cup is 8 fluid ounces....so yes, you would need to stuff that zuker into a measuring cup! Once you know how much is a cup as measured, you can weigh it...and then after that just go by that weight...but I would rather see you try to stuff as much as you can into a measuring cup...haha!
I think usually it is based on 1 inch cubes but not sure....
Cheers
Jake

Halfagain
07-16-2012, 07:59 PM
Well that makes sense, but the days I'm not feeling hungry I could well be turning that zuker sizeways and saying full! to the 1 cup measurement. I'm just thinking what a fair measurement would be for these critters or anti-critters as it were.

GrandmaKiss
07-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Someone please tell me what this means: from that sheet:

"Occasional (you may only choose two items per week from this list)"

OK...haha! So what's that actually mean? That you can pick 2 items, say, Snow Peas and Tomato...and have them BOTH 2 times a week (up to 4 cups of each?)? And really, how many cups of each? way too confusing!



You are way over thinking this list. You may have only a total two- two cup servings from that list a week, it doesn't matter if it is one serving of two things or two servings of one thing. I guess you could also do a melange of the vegetables of that group, but 2 cups is one serving.

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 08:16 PM
You are way over thinking this list. You may have only a total two- two cup servings from that list a week, it doesn't matter if it is one serving of two things or two servings of one thing. I guess you could also do a melange of the vegetables of that group, but 2 cups is one serving.

Thanks! Wish my sheet simply said that but that would have made it too easy! haha!

So basically you are allowed 4 cups a week from that list...can be all 1 item, but no more then 2 items. SPlit it how you want. Got it...THANKS SO MUCH!
Jake

infoplease
07-16-2012, 08:18 PM
Yes, the inconsistencies are vexing.
One thing might be the acid/alkaline thing, but that doesn't always pan out.
The fiber doesn't look like it makes that much difference on the rutabagas (try looking up jicama!)

How does one find out what her carb max is? Is that an atkin's diet thing I could look up? I just go with the flow with IP and generally mix up the veggies or offset a higher carb one with a lower (1 cup spinach plus 1 cup red peppers, for example).

Also, if your carb max is 75g (would that be measured as net carbs or total carbs?), for example, would it make you lose faster by keeping carbs at 25g or 50g? Or, once you are below your personal max it doesn't matter?

Just curious.

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 08:19 PM
Well that makes sense, but the days I'm not feeling hungry I could well be turning that zuker sizeways and saying full! to the 1 cup measurement. I'm just thinking what a fair measurement would be for these critters or anti-critters as it were.

Hi Half...
I cut that zuke into slices about 1/4 inch think and throw them into a measuring cup till it shows 1 cup.

I have since realized that a small zuke will about be the 1 cup....so now I buy them that size and no need to measure!

Cheers!
Jake

cyndie
07-16-2012, 08:32 PM
Veggies: all values are for 1 cup raw:
...............................Pro Carbs Fiber Sugar Calories

Spinach 1 cup.......... 1......1...... 1...... 0.......... 7
Swiss Chard 1 cup...... 1.......1......1.......0..........7
Collard Greens 1 cup.. 1........2......1 ......0.........11
Mushrooms 1cup....... 2........2.......1......1.........15
Turnip Greens 1 cup... 1........4.......2.......0........18
Zucchini 1 cup......... 2........4.......1.......2........20
Cabbage Savory 1 cup..1.......4.......2........2........19
Eggplant 1 cup.........1.......5.......3........2........20
Cauliflower 1 cup.........2.......5.......3........2........25
Asparagus 1 cup.......3.......5.......3........3........27
Rhubarb 1 cup.............1.......6.......2........1........ 26
Broccoli 1 cup .........3.......6.......2.........2........31
Cabbage Red 1 cup......1.......7.......2.........3........28
Turnip 1 cup cubes.......1.......8......2.........5........36
Rutabaga 1 cup cubes...2......11.....4 .........8.......50

Now how is it that Eggplant is on the "Occasional"list yet Rutabaga in on the "Select" everyday use list? (look above at their values)If you have 4 cups of Rutabaga a day, that is 200 calories and a whopping 32 grams SUGAR...

The sheet for Phase 1 that I have is dated 05/02/12
Someone please tell me what this means: from that sheet:

"Occasional (you may only choose two items per week from this list)"

OK...haha! So what's that actually mean? That you can pick 2 items, say, Snow Peas and Tomato...and have them BOTH 2 times a week (up to 4 cups of each?)? And really, how many cups of each? way too confusing!

Now back to the veggie list above:
If you have 4 cups of spinach in the day, you only get 28 total calories and 4 total carbs (0 sugars). AWESOME!
If you have 4 cups of Rutabaga in the day, you get a whopping 200 calories and a confusing 44 gram total carbs. Are they NUTS! That 32 grams SUGAR and for many people that will knock you out of ketosis. I know for me personally, ANY sugars total for the day over like 8 or 10g and I am OUT of ketosis in a NY minute! Then I can figure 3 days to get back on...I did Atkins induction for over a year (lost 100 pounds) so I "know" ketosis real well and know my body real well.

So why would a person not select the veggies that really will help them stay in ketosis, give the lowest carbs and the least sugars and maximize their program?

And more importantly, why when they make these sheets don't they split up the veggies and save people who care about all this, the work?

Obviously the person who has the 4 cups rutabaga is having 172 calories more that day then the person who has 4 cups spinach, for example.

On this program, thats HUGE! Do that for a week and you consumed 1204 calories more then the spinach eater in this example. When you only get around 735-950 (depending on if protein is chicken, shrimp, fish, sirloin etc)calories a day anyway, you just consumed 8 days worth of caloric intake in 7 days. How can that NOT make you lose less weight then what your real potential could have been. And if it knocks you out of ketosis, you will have even greater hunger, cravings etc until you get back in...

Where is that line drawn by those who compose these sheets? Do they even care about this? I mean I realize the local clinic is a business and they need to keep you buying product...but come-on!

You can read everything out there on ketosis, how many sugar carbs a day can one consume and still stay in ketosis, etc etc...and the real number is different for each of us. I think everyone should start this program and the first 2 weeks right away find out "their number"...and then a person can better select which veggies to eat and if "bars" will be OK for "them", etc...

Like I said, my "sugar number" is like 8-10g a day no matter what form or where it comes from...I also know I cannot consume most ANY sugar alcohols as for "me" they do convert to glucose and knock me out of ketosis...tomatoes will too (for me)...

So knowing my "sugar number" allows me to then select which veggies and how much of each I might have and not jeopardize my ketosis...as my shakes are "0" sugars and I don't do the protein bars and other foods that contain sugar of any amount because I can't...in this way the veggie's I choose help me lose weight and stay in ketosis.

The naturally occurring sugars in veggies will still metabolize in the liver to Glucose (which threatens our ketosis). By doing the IP program we "lower" glucose (and glucose converting foods)consumption enough that thus causes the liver to produce ketones (4 diff types)...3 types of ketones will "feed" us and nourish the brain etc...the 4th ketone type is expelled by our bodies.

So even though I am running on here,...the message is to choose your veggies smartly...if you wish to maximize your weight loss. And YES there are some people who would drop a ton of weight on this program with no regard to sugars, no regard to ketosis because any larger mammal on very low calories will lose weight, period. But doing it "right" you can lose more, and lose it much quicker.

Veggie selection can aid in that pursuit, as not all veggies are created equal even though they might share a section on the phase 1 sheet.
Just saying....

Cheers
jake

Jake, thank you so much, this is such great information!! I have been having such a hard time the last couple of weeks, low losses or no loss at all. I now know what I have been doing wrong. I am going to be smarter about my vegetable choices.

I kept trying to identify what I was doing different. Why I kept falling out of ketosis and not losing or losing very little. But, looking back at my log book I see the first two weeks I used spinach, mushroom and romaine salads as my vegetables. The last three weeks I have been eating cabbage, broccoli, rhubarb, turnips...much higher carb veggies.

I have been so OP, I just couldn't figure out what was going on. Thanks again for posting this. You should be an IP coach.:hug:

Beck81
07-16-2012, 08:52 PM
I found a good chart for carbs in vegetables. Didn't know there were so many different vegetables!
www.realfoodnutrients.com/diabetes/carbs/vegetables.htm

mammoth357
07-16-2012, 09:08 PM
Yes, the inconsistencies are vexing.
One thing might be the acid/alkaline thing, but that doesn't always pan out.
The fiber doesn't look like it makes that much difference on the rutabagas (try looking up jicama!)

How does one find out what her carb max is? Is that an atkin's diet thing I could look up? I just go with the flow with IP and generally mix up the veggies or offset a higher carb one with a lower (1 cup spinach plus 1 cup red peppers, for example).

Also, if your carb max is 75g (would that be measured as net carbs or total carbs?), for example, would it make you lose faster by keeping carbs at 25g or 50g? Or, once you are below your personal max it doesn't matter?

Just curious.

Hi Infoplease!

I found my limit by going up in 5 carb a week increments until I saw and "felt" and "knew" I was no longer in ketosis. On Atkins in the maintenance phase they do that also and find their "lock" number...that is the total number of NET carbs, that if you go over that number, you gain weight. Again, that is done in 5 carb increments.

I have found I do best under 20g carb a day...but thats ME. I was on Atkins induction for over a year (under 20 carbs a day) and lost 100 pounds. I know ketosis well. Whether I consumed 10g carb a day or the 20g a day did not matter to my weight loss. But if I had a day and consumed 40g carbs it knocked me out of ketosis and I had to waste 3 days to get back in, Again, those are MY numbers which I learned about myself over time.

You also need to find out about YOU. Meaning, do certain foods stall you...and avoid them. I know sugar alcohols will do that to me as will tomatoes (which I LOVE)...so I don't have any. etc. Its a learning process and very individual.

Just so I don't get yelled at here by anyone, The info being discussed is for those who WANT to maximize their results and time in ketosis by selecting the "better" veggies from the IP list etc...

And finally I have read enough on this forum to know not all "coaches" are created equally...some know what they are doing, and obviously many don't. So many people here get conflicting answers from their coaches it is just silly.

Anyway...
Just sharing what I know as to ketosis, veggie choices, and maximizing weight loss with IP by making better veggie choices etc...
Cheers
Jake

Delgen
07-16-2012, 09:20 PM
This is very interesting. I looked up okra (I'm having that now with lunch): http://calorielab.com/foods/okra/155

Food Measure Prot Carb Fat Pts Cals
Okra, (100.0 g) 2 7 0.1 0 31

Interesting - a cup of okra is approximately 8 3" pods.

Oh I just remembered, don't we subtract the vegetable fiber from the carbs to come up with the net carbs?

Right. Doesn't fiber grams get figured in somewhere?

Delgen
07-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Jake, this is REALLY helpful to me. Thanks!

GrandmaKiss
07-16-2012, 10:13 PM
Thanks! Wish my sheet simply said that but that would have made it too easy! haha!

So basically you are allowed 4 cups a week from that list...can be all 1 item, but no more then 2 items. SPlit it how you want. Got it...THANKS SO MUCH!

Jake

Not really 4 cups, 2 servings of 2 cups. When I first started I thought maybe I could have a half cup of tomatoes on 4 days and have it count as one restricted veg serving, but my coach nixed that idea.

rainbowsmiles
07-16-2012, 10:53 PM
Thanks! Wish my sheet simply said that but that would have made it too easy! haha!

So basically you are allowed 4 cups a week from that list...can be all 1 item, but no more then 2 items. SPlit it how you want. Got it...THANKS SO MUCH!
Jake

Not really 4 cups, 2 servings of 2 cups. When I first started I thought maybe I could have a half cup of tomatoes on 4 days and have it count as one restricted veg serving, but my coach nixed that idea.

the coach i talked to explained it to me like this...
2 times a week....i can choose up to 2 cups at a time from the restricted LIST.
it doesn't have to be all 1 item, it can be 1,2,3 or 4 items....but no more than 2 cups total

for 1 meal in the week i can have any combination of 2 cups
ex: i can have 1/2 cup tomatoes, 1/2 cup brussel sprouts and 1/2 cup green beans and 1/2 cup snow peas IF i choose....but it has to be all for that 1 meal and counts as my 2 cups.

i can only do this 2 times a week either for lunch veggies or supper veggies

it cannot be 1/2 cup for 4 different days, etc

that made pretty good sense to me :) although that is not how i "read" it to be?

infoplease
07-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Hi Infoplease!

I found my limit by going up in 5 carb a week increments until I saw and "felt" and "knew" I was no longer in ketosis. On Atkins in the maintenance phase they do that also and find their "lock" number...that is the total number of NET carbs, that if you go over that number, you gain weight. Again, that is done in 5 carb increments.

I have found I do best under 20g carb a day...but thats ME. I was on Atkins induction for over a year (under 20 carbs a day) and lost 100 pounds. I know ketosis well. Whether I consumed 10g carb a day or the 20g a day did not matter to my weight loss. But if I had a day and consumed 40g carbs it knocked me out of ketosis and I had to waste 3 days to get back in, Again, those are MY numbers which I learned about myself over time.

You also need to find out about YOU. Meaning, do certain foods stall you...and avoid them. I know sugar alcohols will do that to me as will tomatoes (which I LOVE)...so I don't have any. etc. Its a learning process and very individual.

Just so I don't get yelled at here by anyone, The info being discussed is for those who WANT to maximize their results and time in ketosis by selecting the "better" veggies from the IP list etc...

And finally I have read enough on this forum to know not all "coaches" are created equally...some know what they are doing, and obviously many don't. So many people here get conflicting answers from their coaches it is just silly.

Anyway...
Just sharing what I know as to ketosis, veggie choices, and maximizing weight loss with IP by making better veggie choices etc...
Cheers
Jake

THANK YOU!
Almost motivates me to go back thru and match food diaries with weight loss. Almost. Maybe just look at the one week where I had zero pounds and zero fat percentage change. :)

The IdealCoaching videos had an episode where they suggested that very carb sensitive people might need to adjust the IP choices for carbs. It might have mentioned vegetables, too, I just don't remember.

One other ketosis question for you. Can exercise knock you out of ketosis? By exercise, I mean circuit training or a Zumba class or something above the fatburning zone.

Thanks!

infoplease
07-17-2012, 12:15 AM
To me, part of the point of this post is neither to encourage us to eat 14 cups of spinach a week nor keep us from eating 14 cups of rutabagas a week, but to explain the importance of variety from a carb perspective (and I think it is important from a vitamin and mineral perspective as well.)

So here are my challenge questions:
Has anyone tried EVERY vegetable on the "select" list?
How many have you tried?
How many had you never tried before IP?
And, do you seem to prefer the higher carb ones?

I'll start.

I haven't tried every vegetable on the list.
I have tried 30.
I had never tried kale (only seen it as a garnish) and I have eaten more of ones I had only tried once or twice before (fennel, leeks).
I seem to prefer the ones that aren't green (red pepper, jicama, mushrooms) to mellow out the spinach and zucchini and celery (and I remain not a big cucumber fan).

mammoth357
07-17-2012, 12:34 AM
One other ketosis question for you. Can exercise knock you out of ketosis? By exercise, I mean circuit training or a Zumba class or something above the fatburning zone.

Thanks!

I am not very informed on the exercise topic...but there is something there that says if you consume no carbohydrates at all, the body will start converting protein into glucose, which we do not want to happen as we need that protein to protect our heart and muscles...therefore we have good carbs from our veggies and some carbs from our shakes and having "some" carbs is an important thing.

When you exercise you are consuming energy...while in ketosis that energy is in the form of ketones...if you exercise too much you will consume your ketones at a rate quicker then your liver can metabolize more and then you will begin to convert protein to to glucose.
SO, you would in that example need either more carbs so keep this from happening or less exercise.

The "more carbs" would require a balance where you know how far you can go adding in carbs and yet still staying in ketosis...so there is a delicate balance.

Maybe someone else can better answer this...I really have never spent much time researching this....
Cheers!
Jake

infoplease
07-17-2012, 12:44 AM
I am not very informed on the exercise topic...but there is something there that says if you consume no carbohydrates at all, the body will start converting protein into glucose, which we do not want to happen as we need that protein to protect our heart and muscles...therefore we have good carbs from our veggies and some carbs from our shakes and having "some" carbs is an important thing.

When you exercise you are consuming energy...while in ketosis that energy is in the form of ketones...if you exercise too much you will consume your ketones at a rate quicker then your liver can metabolize more and then you will begin to convert protein to to glucose.
SO, you would in that example need either more carbs so keep this from happening or less exercise.

The "more carbs" would require a balance where you know how far you can go adding in carbs and yet still staying in ketosis...so there is a delicate balance.

Maybe someone else can better answer this...I really have never spent much time researching this....
Cheers!
Jake

Thanks, Jake. I have only begun researching.
At this point, I add extra protein, either an IP product (sometimes restricted sometimes not) or two whole eggs.
That improves the endurance but my strength is still quite pathetic and my balance is worse (so I can have new goals after I reach my IP one). When I do that, I am not really hungry afterwards and will push the 45 minute rule a little, but usually just make lunch. I almost think it is a more calories thing.

At the seminar tonight, she told a story of a client that had been on maintenance and decided to run a marathon. He did some "carbo loading" leading up to the event, and gained 12 lbs. After the marathon, he had lost one. (He went back on Phase 1 after the race, so his workout clothes would fit again!) So I can see that the carb balance piece is a little complex.

Interesting stuff.

Meagan240
07-17-2012, 01:15 AM
I feel really good for eating nothing but spinach, now!!

explore
07-17-2012, 07:26 AM
I love all this information! I want to fully understand my body so that I have a greater chance at keeping the weight off. I am reading an amazing book that fully supports how we are eating -- Gary Taubs, "Why We Get Fat". I highly recommend this book. I have also been trying to read as much as I can about the lower carb lifestyle. I want to be fully armed and ready when I phase off of IP. I came across the the author of the Hamptons Diet (another lower carb lifestyle), and he use to work for Atkins. He doesn't believe in subtracting any of the fiber from the total carbs. He says the carb count is the carb count. Jake, what are your thoughts?

Julie68
07-17-2012, 08:33 AM
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mammoth357
07-17-2012, 09:22 AM
I love all this information! I want to fully understand my body so that I have a greater chance at keeping the weight off. I am reading an amazing book that fully supports how we are eating -- Gary Taubs, "Why We Get Fat". I highly recommend this book. I have also been trying to read as much as I can about the lower carb lifestyle. I want to be fully armed and ready when I phase off of IP. I came across the the author of the Hamptons Diet (another lower carb lifestyle), and he use to work for Atkins. He doesn't believe in subtracting any of the fiber from the total carbs. He says the carb count is the carb count. Jake, what are your thoughts?

I don't believe carb counting is even part of IP. I think they want us to just follow the sheet and not get any further involved in the "diet" then that.
Personally, I look to "optimize" and get a more efficient running engine from it all...

I go by the Atkins standard where carbs and Ketosis are concerned because that is how I lost my 1st 100 pounds.

I subtract fiber. BUT you have to make sure it is insoluble fiber. If you don't know, then you cannot subtract it.

Meaning, Total carbs minus fiber =net carbs. I keep Net carbs per day under 20g (like when I did Atkins). I look for "0" added sugars, I select veggies with between 0 and 2 sugars only...I avoid protein bars or added carbs, and I avoid sugar alcohols. Then I know I have a great ketosis going and my weight loss will have a better chance.

In Atkins you also subtract Sugar Alcohols to get net carbs. I do NOT consume sugar alcohols as they stall me stone cold and that scale will not move down at all. There are a variety of sugar alcohols being used and some will effect you more then others (by converting to glucose)...so again, it is an individual thing to see if you can use them safely and not have weight loss effected.

Atkins phase 1: Induction used to be so "pure" with whole foods only, no bars allowed etc...then the company had financial problems and they redesigned phase 1...and now you can have all types of bars etc...why? Because the company decided so, to sell more products.

Anyone reading this who is an "old Atkins Induction person" will know exactly what I mean. Just a shame.

Anyway...total carbs minus insoluble fiber, minus (certain)sugar alcohols=NET carbs (Atkins Diet)

My Version: total carbs minus insoluble fiber=NET carbs

The best way to optimize the plan regarding sugar alcohols is to either have none at all (thats what I do), or learn which you can have with no negative effect.

Have a great day!
Jake

justbecause53
07-17-2012, 09:49 AM
This has been a very informative discussion. Thanks to Jake and others who have put so much thought into the topic of "veggies." I have learned a great deal and will adjust my veggie intake accordingly. I will definitely try switching my broccoli out for more spinach. What do I have to lose? Oh yeah, POUNDS!

Thanks so much for sharing this information in a clear and convincing way.

patns
07-17-2012, 05:25 PM
I have found I do best under 20g carb a day...but thats ME. I was on Atkins induction for over a year (under 20 carbs a day) and lost 100 pounds. I know ketosis well. Whether I consumed 10g carb a day or the 20g a day did not matter to my weight loss. But if I had a day and consumed 40g carbs it knocked me out of ketosis and I had to waste 3 days to get back in, Again, those are MY numbers which I learned about myself over time.

You also need to find out about YOU. Meaning, do certain foods stall you...and avoid them. I know sugar alcohols will do that to me as will tomatoes (which I LOVE)...so I don't have any. etc. Its a learning process and very individual.



This is a very important point. The key is to watch carefully what happens to YOUR body.

I am old enough to have been on every diet known to man at least three times. What is very evident is that I am super carb sensitive so my natural inclination was Atkins, Dukan etc. I did fine and lost weight rapidly on the first part of these plans but soon would plateau. So i would move to the second stage where carbs would be slowly reintroduced and in the blink of an eye all the weight would be back on.

I have been maintaining on IP since the end of Feb without too much difficulty.

This is the only plan I have been able to maintain on and I know it is because it steadily allows small and controlled amount of carbs and my body learned how to handle them. I have had to watch carefully how I added carbs back in maintenance to keep this balance going.

If I had one of the many coaches who second guess the program and eliminate things from the protocol sheet I know my weight would have bounced right back to what it was once I went to maintenance.

This is the first time in 50 years of dieting that I feel confident about maintaining. I think adjusting to a wide variety of veggies is a very important step to healthy life long eating.
We have to let go of the mindsets we carry from all the other approaches we tried in the past.

Pat

efwilli
07-17-2012, 05:52 PM
Hello,

I just converted your data into a table to be visually easier to compare while waiting for an answer :)

This is super helpful! Thanks!!

mammoth357
07-17-2012, 06:55 PM
This is a very important point. The key is to watch carefully what happens to YOUR body.

I have been maintaining on IP since the end of Feb without too much difficulty.

This is the only plan I have been able to maintain on and I know it is because it steadily allows small and controlled amount of carbs and my body learned how to handle them. I have had to watch carefully how I added carbs back in maintenance to keep this balance going.

If I had one of the many coaches who second guess the program and eliminate things from the protocol sheet I know my weight would have bounced right back to what it was once I went to maintenance.

This is the first time in 50 years of dieting that I feel confident about maintaining. I think adjusting to a wide variety of veggies is a very important step to healthy life long eating.
We have to let go of the mindsets we carry from all the other approaches we tried in the past.

Pat

Hi Pat...CONGRATS on your maintenance! Awesome!
No one here, and especially me, is suggesting to forego the IP master sheet for phase 1...and I fully agree about a variety of veggies being important to healthy life long eating...but while I am not on maintenance and still so far from goal, I prefer personally to take advantage of the best those veggies have to offer me...as to maintaining a stable ketosis to maximize my weight loss.
I disagree that we should let go of mindsets from other programs and I believe we carry what we have learned further as we progress. The ketosis of the IP diet is the exact same ketosis of Atkins diet...there is no difference.
Going one further, IP diet is simply Atkins done "low-fat" and therefore very low calories.
In its simplest form, the reasons this diet works and does so fast, is due to abnormally low caloric intake and of course ketosis. Plain and simple. It is not the "shakes, bars, puddings, etc"...those are just a way for IP to make money, and thats fine....but let there be no doubt that a large mammal on 700-800 calories a day WILL lose weight quicker then say 2000 calories a day, unless you go into starvation mode and get "lock-out" of course.

Best of luck to you on your maintenance...can't wait to be there myself!
Awesome job!
Cheers
Jake