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OhMyDogs
01-12-2012, 01:29 PM
So I was directed to an article today, online and it seriously disgusted and shocked me. It was an eye opener as to what the modelling industry sees as "overweight".

The article went on to say:

-Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.

- Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.

- Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.

- 50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.

What really got me though, was the size of plus-sized models. At what freaking point did a size 6 or a size 8 become plus sized?

Now, I don't want to be, nor did I ever want to be a model, but I think this sets a HORRIBLE example for our children. I knew models were a lot smaller than they used to be, but really? A size 8 is plus sized? I just don't think so.


sacha
01-12-2012, 01:34 PM
You know, I am going to be honest here. Yes, this is a bad example for children, both little boys and girls. Girls, it is so obvious - but boys too. After all, male eating disorders exist, not to mention the "image" of a woman that they look to.

On the other hand - I think we should admit that obesity is also a horrible example and the rising statistics of childhood obesity is a direct reflection as well.

Beach Patrol
01-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Models aren't real people. Everybody knows that. :rofl:

A size 8 is plus sized? Then I can hardly WAIT to be "plus sized"!!!

And I agree - this is not a good example to set for future adults. And neither is obesity. As a society, we simply must find a common ground. But what's common anymore?


OhMyDogs
01-12-2012, 01:42 PM
The thing is, skinny parents don't always mean skinny kids.....just like overweight parents don't always mean overweight kids.

Obesity is rampant, absolutely, but *I*, as a morbidly obese woman, am extremely careful about how food is approached with my 2 girls. Neither of them is overweight (one's actually very slender), I strive to not make food an issue in my house almost compulsively.

I think unrealistic self images will absolutely do more harm than good. I think there should NEVER be a time when a size 8 or 10, or ever 12 is considered plus size! I believe Marilyn Monroe, iconic sex goddess wore a size 12.

ShyHeather
01-12-2012, 01:43 PM
So I was directed to an article today, online and it seriously disgusted and shocked me. It was an eye opener as to what the modelling industry sees as "overweight".

The article went on to say:

-Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.

- Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.

- Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.

- 50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.

What really got me though, was the size of plus-sized models. At what freaking point did a size 6 or a size 8 become plus sized?

Now, I don't want to be, nor did I ever want to be a model, but I think this sets a HORRIBLE example for our children. I knew models were a lot smaller than they used to be, but really? A size 8 is plus sized? I just don't think so.

Wow. Size 6 to size 8? I think that probably has crushed a lot of women who had good body images with a slight worry. I know that recently clothing sizes have once again changed. I worked hard to get into 1X's and now I have to browse the 2X's even though my girth hasn't changed :(

OhMyDogs
01-12-2012, 01:45 PM
I will post the link for the article (sorry if it gets deleted) here (http://http://fashionista.com/2012/01/plus-size-model-editorial-says-runway-models-meet-the-physical-criteria-for-anorexia/).

The "plus size" model in question is NOT what I would call "plus sized", and it shames me to think that such a beautiful woman would have to go into the "plus size" modelling business!

MusicalAstronaut
01-12-2012, 01:55 PM
That's insane about size 8 being plus size! My little sister has a great body - she's 3 inches taller than me, much more well-endowed than me (haha), and probably on the low side of the healthy BMI for her height/body frame (140lbs). But we both have wide frames (strapless dresses look terrible on us!) and she's a 6/8. We were shopping for a prom dress for her two years ago and my mom was giving her SO much s**t for being that size. I was like, um, hello, I don't think she could lose any weight without being sick! She's just a very active person and has had great fitness her whole life. And here's my mom, making HER feel fat simply because of her dress size. I was so incredibly pissed.

40lbsPLEASE
01-12-2012, 02:05 PM
The thing is, skinny parents don't always mean skinny kids.....just like overweight parents don't always mean overweight kids.

Obesity is rampant, absolutely, but *I*, as a morbidly obese woman, am extremely careful about how food is approached with my 2 girls. Neither of them is overweight (one's actually very slender), I strive to not make food an issue in my house almost compulsively.

I think unrealistic self images will absolutely do more harm than good. I think there should NEVER be a time when a size 8 or 10, or ever 12 is considered plus size! I believe Marilyn Monroe, iconic sex goddess wore a size 12.

She did! She actually fluctuated, like most of us do, between sizes 12-14! Yep! Such a beautiful, curvy woman she was! And back in her time, their magazine covers read "Don't be skinny", and had articles on how to boost your curves. Now EVERY.SINGLE.MAGAZINE starts with 'How to lose 5lbs in a week', or something to that nature. It truly disgusts me to think about it. :(

sontaikle
01-12-2012, 02:42 PM
The plus size model thing makes me laugh all the time and I used to get so annoyed when I was plus size. Size 12 on a 6' tall woman is a LOT different than size 12 on a woman my height. Now that they're using tall size 8 and 6 women...how are actual plus size women supposed to see how the clothes look?



I think unrealistic self images will absolutely do more harm than good. I think there should NEVER be a time when a size 8 or 10, or ever 12 is considered plus size! I believe Marilyn Monroe, iconic sex goddess wore a size 12.

No, she didn't. Not in today's sizes anyway.

She had 36" hips at one point. That's a size 2/4 in most sizes today. However she never really had a "size" assigned to her. Most of her clothes were custom made and some were even sewn on to her so they were skin tight.

She was 5'5" or around there. Size 4 in a woman of that size looks a lot different than size 4 on a taller woman.

Let's not start about vanity sizing though. Sizes in the 50s were completely different than they are today.

Marilyn Monroe did something I would love to do if I had the means—clothes made for MY UNIQUE CURVES

jeminijad
01-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Thank you, sontaikle. Marilyn Monroe was not a modern 12/14- anyone curious can look up the size creep that has happened in women's clothing measurements. A 12 of the 1950s was something like a 6 today.

jeminijad
01-12-2012, 04:16 PM
Additionally, couture clothing is cut to the old school sizes- think wedding dress sizes. An 8 in Marc Jacobs' catwalk collection is not an 8 at the Gap. I'm not getting my panties in a knot that a woman wearing a street size 10 or 12 is considered plus size in the world of haute couture.

Italiannie
01-12-2012, 04:26 PM
I shop a lot at one store and the jeans I just bought were a size 12. Now let me tell you that noway, nohow am I a size 12. I usually wear a 16. So, that is what vanity sizing has done to us, who are we kidding?

I'm sure Marilyn Monroe was never the size 12 I'm wearing. She would be a size 6 by today's standards. When I was a teenager, there were no size 0's or 00's. Having said that, depending on the manufacturer, I could see where a size 12 could be plus size, because that's what used to be considered a 16 or more.

There's a really interesting thread on 3FC regarding weight/height/size. It's fascinating to scroll through and see how different women who seem to have similar stats, wear different sizes.

Also, not only are models getting thinner, but with the general population is getting larger, I can believe that they weigh 23 percent less than the general population.

It's a crazy world.

CherryQuinn
01-12-2012, 04:39 PM
im anywhere from a 12-22 in n.a sizing and 18-20 in uk sizes. sizing is just annoying but its hard to judge whose thin or fat these days, obviously the extremes are easy to tell but ive seen girls call other girls that are 140lbs fat saying things like wow she needs to eat salad and once that girl is lost like 10lbs its oh who does she think she is being that thin! she needs to eat a burger, it seems theres a very thin line has to whats considered fat or thin when you get down to ppl that wear general 0-8 a tiny amount of weight can make the difference between fat or thin in a lot of ppls eyes than. im not saying its right or that its my opinion, i dont think any size 8 is fat, but its what ive noticed ppl saying. could just be cattyness too lol just seems the standards leave very little room between plus and thin

berryblondeboys
01-12-2012, 04:43 PM
So I was directed to an article today, online and it seriously disgusted and shocked me. It was an eye opener as to what the modelling industry sees as "overweight".

The article went on to say:

-Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.

- Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.

- Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.

- 50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.

What really got me though, was the size of plus-sized models. At what freaking point did a size 6 or a size 8 become plus sized?

Now, I don't want to be, nor did I ever want to be a model, but I think this sets a HORRIBLE example for our children. I knew models were a lot smaller than they used to be, but really? A size 8 is plus sized? I just don't think so.

It's not that models have gotten skinnier. The rest of of us have gotten fatter.

And when I got to 170 last month, I was beginning to be able to fit into size 10. By the time I get to 160, I will probably wear a mix between 8-10 depending on the manufacturer, but in haute couture, I would still be about a size 14. Sizes have changed that much in the last 25 years. And.... I will nevere be a model, but at a size 8 in today's sizes, yes, that is a larger woman and would have been considered plus size for sure 25 years ago. It's a small plus size, but today,s 8 isn't small!

Ramra
01-12-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm a size 8, so therefore I'd be considered "plus sized". And to think I worked my butt off to get here. :dizzy: Not cool, modelling industry!!

cherrypie
01-12-2012, 06:08 PM
sizes have changed so much. I remember in about '84 a friend worked in a clothing store and holding up the first 1 we had ever seen. It didn't look big enough to fit a barbie. Those days being really skinny meant fitting into a size 6. It was scary to think anyone might actually be smaller than that.

I've known about the plus size models for a while. They take small models and pad them because they want the slim calves and jaw line.

40lbsPLEASE
01-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Size 12 or 6, doesn't really matter I guess- she was a CURVY woman and looked beautiful in her curves. None of this nonsense, sharp bones poking thru your clothes crap. Blech!

sacha
01-12-2012, 06:51 PM
Size 12 or 6, doesn't really matter I guess- she was a CURVY woman and looked beautiful in her curves. None of this nonsense, sharp bones poking thru your clothes crap. Blech!

It's unfair to insult other body types though, I was underweight when I was younger (under 20) and it always hurt me when people made fun of that. You can be proud of your size/curves/whatever without demeaning others.

sontaikle
01-12-2012, 06:57 PM
Size 12 or 6, doesn't really matter I guess- she was a CURVY woman and looked beautiful in her curves. None of this nonsense, sharp bones poking thru your clothes crap. Blech!

Wow really?

Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on

Kahokkuri
01-12-2012, 07:00 PM
It's unfair to insult other body types though, I was underweight when I was younger (under 20) and it always hurt me when people made fun of that. You can be proud of your size/curves/whatever without demeaning others.

Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on

Thank you, ladies. I wanted to say something to this effect but nothing I wrote came out quite as tactful.

SunnyJee
01-12-2012, 07:45 PM
I'm a little curious why anyone would be upset about this article? Or what the modeling industry says about sizing?

Unless you're a model, does it affect you in any way? Lol, it sure doesn't to me!

I'm a size 2 in some stores, a 4 in others...a size small in one store, and xxs in another (wtf?). But at the end of the day, a size on the tag is one little thing compared to the biggie to me: what do I look like naked? Am I seeing muscle tone? Am I losing fat?

I'm even starting to let go of the numbers on the scale... I will probably always weigh daily, but I know that I can change my body at this point with body recomposition without seeing big number changes on the scale.

There are a lot of women who are 5'0 and 110lbs who probably look a heck of a lot better than I do naked :)

And I could care less what any industry would have to say about my size.
ESPECIALLY the modeling industry, lol !!

pattyhues
01-12-2012, 08:29 PM
According to the top modeling agencies in the world (Ford, Wihelmina, Elite, Click, Next, et al), plus size models are booked at sizes 8 through 16/18. It's a fact when you're dealing with the modeling world.

Plus size clothing vendors, designers, etc. request models starting at a size 8, and that is what agencies book as plus size. The most requested size is 14, but yep, size 8s are too big for straight size modeling gigs for the most part.

princessgina00
01-12-2012, 09:47 PM
You know, I am going to be honest here. Yes, this is a bad example for children, both little boys and girls. Girls, it is so obvious - but boys too. After all, male eating disorders exist, not to mention the "image" of a woman that they look to.

On the other hand - I think we should admit that obesity is also a horrible example and the rising statistics of childhood obesity is a direct reflection as well.

Yeah, but the difference is that no one's promoting obesity or holding it up as an example of the ideal woman/man.

princessgina00
01-12-2012, 09:58 PM
Wow really?

Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on

No, but it is okay to take issue with their methods. It would be one thing if models were naturally thin. But, they're not. They go to vastly unhealthy extremes to maintain very low weights, then promote themselves as if their efforts are effortless, so everyone should be their size. It's not the teeny sizes of the models that bug me; it's the lie that the industry perpetuates; it's the taking of extremely impressionable, healthy young women/girls and turning them into shells, husks of their former selves. Skinny women are beautiful. But, models...models WERE beautiful before they entered the industry and they will be beautiful after they leave. But, IMO, no one in that industry is actually beautiful.

sontaikle
01-12-2012, 10:58 PM
No, but it is okay to take issue with their methods. It would be one thing if models were naturally thin. But, they're not. They go to vastly unhealthy extremes to maintain very low weights, then promote themselves as if their efforts are effortless, so everyone should be their size. It's not the teeny sizes of the models that bug me; it's the lie that the industry perpetuates; it's the taking of extremely impressionable, healthy young women/girls and turning them into shells, husks of their former selves. Skinny women are beautiful. But, models...models WERE beautiful before they entered the industry and they will be beautiful after they leave. But, IMO, no one in that industry is actually beautiful.

That doesn't give anyone the right to say "gross! bones!"

The modeling industry is another issue entirely, but I think it's wrong to go after skinny women in general. There are many naturally skinny women who are just small. I firmly believe that while there are people who can be safely above the "Normal" BMI range that there are people who can be safely below it as well.

I think going after the modeling industry is fine, but we have to be careful how it's done. You can't say "ew, disgusting, you're bony." because there are people out there who are just naturally that way! How do you think they feel when they see that?

I have some friends who fall into that "underweight" range and they don't look as if they're starving and they're perfectly and utterly healthy. They're just built really small. Should we shame them because they're underweight? No, nobody should be shamed because of their body.

It's one of the reasons why I cringe when I hear people describe size 0 as anorexic size or something. If you're short or just small framed, size 0 might be a perfectly acceptable size to get into.

Just as it's wrong to go to an overweight person and yell at them to lose weight, it is wrong to go to a skinny person and tell them to gain.

If they have a health issue that is another matter entirely, but for the most part we should all just accept bodies for their differences and quirks.

duckyyellowfeet
01-13-2012, 12:43 AM
Realistically, an "8" IS a plus-size....in the modeling world. Its like how I'm pretty smart---within my peer group. Put me with a bunch of genius people, suddenly I'd be the dumb one.

Now, do I think that a size 8 should be the Vogue model example of the general "plus-size"? Absolutely not. But realistically, as someone who works with teenagers all day, every day, I think a lot more media sources are affecting youth (and therefore the growing generations of women) than model and magazines.

martini
01-13-2012, 01:23 AM
Some random thoughts on this, many of which have already been expressed here...


-Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.


Well, sure. The average woman in the U.S. has gotten fatter in the past 20 years and the weights for models have stayed the same. That would make a model further away from the average now than she was 20 years ago.

I just did a quick online search for the data so take these numbers with a grain of salt, but average bmi for 18 year olds around 1990 was 22 and average bmi for 18 year olds in 2000 was around 24.5. For a 5'4" young woman, that's a move from about 132 to 147.


Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.


Can't size inflation explain that? If you're wearing jeans in a size 24W from Target, you're supposed to have a 45" waist. If you decide to sew your own jeans based on a pattern from Simplicity, a size 24 means you have a 39" waist. Those are pretty dramatic differences. If memory serves, the Simplicity pattern sizes have remained pretty constant over the years while store-bought clothing has been very, very generous in revamping their size numbers.


Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.


I don't mean to a jerk and criticize any of the other comments on this issue, but reading variants on this always upsets me because - for me - it reduces a painful, horrible eating disorder to a number. If you're under an 18.5 BMI you're anorexic. End of story.

I've never been anorexic, but I do struggle with my weight (to wit... I'm posting here!). There's so much that goes on mentally when it comes to gaining and losing weight that to reduce any eating disorder to a number and have that be the end of it... well, I think we're doing a disservice to those who are actually suffering from any eating disorder.

After another quick google... the diagnostic criteria for anorexia are complex and there are lots of factors that come into play. BMI is one part, but only one part. And there's also a difference between the BMI for underweight (where I believe most models fall) and severely underweight (where it becomes a serious medical problem).


50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.


Yeah. This frustrates me, too. :)

HMM3
01-13-2012, 02:41 AM
The article certainly has us talking .... there is 250 comments on it in our local website here in New Zealand ....

She is a beautiful women ...... and so are more slightly built models ....

If I was living a healthy lifestyle and looked like her ... I'd be very happy ... so would my husband ....

I do think the idea that she is encoraging obseity is ridiculous though ...

sacha
01-13-2012, 06:19 AM
Yeah, but the difference is that no one's promoting obesity or holding it up as an example of the ideal woman/man.

You're right - but I think people are looking in the wrong place if they want to blame their child's potential self-image on Coco Rocha rather than their own eating habits. A mother who struggles with weight, self-image, obesity, or an eating disorder (whether at the big or small end of the spectrum) has a far greater impact.

I just find it strange that women will be up in arms about some Paris runway model (which most little girls have no clue about) but will conveniently ignore the "MODEL" that wakes them up, makes them breakfast, sends them to school, stands on her scale each morning, buys a WW cookbook, etc...

I dunno. I'm just looking at my kid while typing this and thinking, is Karl Lagerfeld going to be to blame for whatever happens? Or is it that I am here on 3FC desperately trying to maintain my loss?

melodymist
01-13-2012, 06:50 AM
It's not that models have gotten skinnier. The rest of of us have gotten fatter.



AMEN!!!!

DesertTabby
01-13-2012, 07:15 AM
Thank you, sontaikle. Marilyn Monroe was not a modern 12/14- anyone curious can look up the size creep that has happened in women's clothing measurements. A 12 of the 1950s was something like a 6 today.

So in today's modeling/entertainment industry she'd STILL be considered plus-size thanks to shift in the modelling agency.

I do agree with the sentiment that we have grown fatter in general, but when a man's body is the most ideal form for women's fashion on the runway, well, something is really effed up:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1360460/Andrej-Pejic-Fashions-ultimate-insult-women-man-dresses-woman.html

ETA: the article is highly uh, slanted and from a specific view point, but Andrej Pejic is a recent phenomenon in the fashion industry world and its an interesting debate no matter how you look at it.

MusicalAstronaut
01-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Now EVERY.SINGLE.MAGAZINE starts with 'How to lose 5lbs in a week', or something to that nature. It truly disgusts me to think about it. :(

It might be weird, but seeing those articles pisses me off. I'm like, that's NOT a healthy way to lose weight! If your goal is to lose, you know, 30lbs in 30 days, how long are you going to keep that off, especially if you did it on an all-banana diet or something? I buy diet cookbooks for the healthy recipes but I'm nearly embarrassed by the "Lose 12lbs in 2 weeks!" crap on the covers. It makes me feel desperate. Um, if it was that easy to lose 12lbs in 2 weeks, we would all be at goal right now. :P

OhMyDogs
01-13-2012, 09:36 AM
I think, personally, that having such thin models being the pinnacle of the fashion world encourages young girls (and older ones too) to have unreal expectations about what's "healthy".

I think in the modelling industry, plus sized models should be PLUS SIZED (not plus sized for models, but plus sized for women in general). I resent the attitude that anyone wearing over a size 4 is "plus sized". There are MANY MANY women who have been called "fat" who were not overweight simply because of the stigma attached to us women by the modelling industry. Fashion models are SUPPOSED to be a representative of women in general, but that's no longer the case.

And while I am not by any means suggesting that most models should be plus sized, I think a realistic view of "average" sized women would be MUCH more beneficial, not only to the modelling and fashion industry, but to the self image of millions of women. Yes, even if it's a *gulp* size 8 or even 10!

A neighbour and I were discussing sizes one day, because I said I wanted to be a size 8 when I got down to my goal weight, and she said "wow, just keep an eye on things and don't go too far, I wear a size 10", and she is NO WHERE NEAR plus sized!

40lbsPLEASE
01-13-2012, 09:43 AM
Wow really?

Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on

Hello, sontickle.

You're totally misunderstanding me. It's sad to me that women WORK to have their bones poking thru their skin/clothes because they allow the industry to lead them to believe that it's what society prefers to see on the runway and in magazines. Now, if one has an eating disorder and cannot HELP but be seriously underweight, then I can certainly sympathize and hope that that individual can get the help they need to become a HEALTHY body weight. I believe it is a disservice to ones body to be chronically underweight, as it is to be chronically overweight. No ones perfect, I certainly know this. I cannot expect for my choice of words to keep everyone here happy, and I won't try. That would mean we'd all have the same exact viewpoints and opinions on each topic discussed, and that just ain't happening! Have a great day :D

40lbsPLEASE
01-13-2012, 09:49 AM
I think, personally, that having such thin models being the pinnacle of the fashion world encourages young girls (and older ones too) to have unreal expectations about what's "healthy".

I think in the modelling industry, plus sized models should be PLUS SIZED (not plus sized for models, but plus sized for women in general). I resent the attitude that anyone wearing over a size 4 is "plus sized". There are MANY MANY women who have been called "fat" who were not overweight simply because of the stigma attached to us women by the modelling industry. Fashion models are SUPPOSED to be a representative of women in general, but that's no longer the case.

And while I am not by any means suggesting that most models should be plus sized, I think a realistic view of "average" sized women would be MUCH more beneficial, not only to the modelling and fashion industry, but to the self image of millions of women. Yes, even if it's a *gulp* size 8 or even 10!

A neighbour and I were discussing sizes one day, because I said I wanted to be a size 8 when I got down to my goal weight, and she said "wow, just keep an eye on things and don't go too far, I wear a size 10", and she is NO WHERE NEAR plus sized!

This This This!!

jeminijad
01-13-2012, 09:51 AM
Many more women are overweight than underweight.

Certainly I have compassion for young women suffering from anorexia, but they are a minority. Those who look at runway models and cannot understand that it is not something to aspire to have other problems.

And frankly, there are measures being taken to move away from the anorexic build models- the minimum BMI that was instituted being one of them. And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.

lm3898
01-13-2012, 10:53 AM
Yeah, but the difference is that no one's promoting obesity or holding it up as an example of the ideal woman/man.

I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?

I just think that while we jump to point out anorexic models and get angered by normal weight adults used as plus size models, we don't judge nearly as harshly on obesity? Isn't that as dangerous as anorexia?

We are so afraid that young children will look to these models and think they are the norm - how are they going to think that when, as someone pointed out earlier on this thread that 50% of women are a size 14 or higher...

OhMyDogs
01-13-2012, 11:01 AM
Do you watch Mike and Molly? I don't watch it regularly, but the episodes that I have seen, there is OFTEN mention of being overweight, or discussing attempts to lose weight. Mike and Molly is not a show about 2 obese people trying to pretend they are not obese. They make it obvious, even in the story line, that they are overweight.

I've never once seen a TV show, with thin actors/actresses talking about how unhealthy they look. How com only overweight actors need to address that?

sacha
01-13-2012, 11:12 AM
There was some considerable backlash against the new 90210 because the girls were deemed 'too thin'.

This isn't the first time I've seen a similar subject on 3FC. The outrage against model sizing, the horrible examples it sets (not that I am disagreeing), but the complete disregard for how "US" (being the overweight/obese mother) is never really spoken about despite everyone knowing that the parent role model (particularly the same sex parent) having a far more profound effect.

And then of course the inevitable "skinny bashing" that comes along with it. I've been fat and I've been skinny. Skinny, without any effort, when young. And let me tell you, I've had more than a few 'bigger' girls reduce me to tears telling me that I was too skinny therefore "not a womanly', 'not curvy', etc. This sort of comments is not uncommon on 3FC, perhaps a way for girls to try and make themselves feel better by putting other body types down (oh the irony).

This isn't directed towards anyone in particular, just an observation after having spent a few years here.

OhMyDogs
01-13-2012, 11:22 AM
The thing is, watchers being upset with an actor/actresses weight is one thing, but actually addressing it in the show is completely a different entity in my mind.

Now, I personally have NOTHING against thin women. I have 1 daughter who is very "willowy", as is my mother in law. And, as a bisexual woman, I find women from all spectrums of the scale to be beautiful and sensual.

I believe "thin bashing" is just as nasty and hateful as "fat bashing". I believe, personally, in a world where size of body is irrelevant, and size of heart is incredibly important.

I think, if we can lose the stigma that's attached to weight, we can improve the lives and self confidence of SO many women, on both ends of the scale.

SouthLake
01-13-2012, 11:26 AM
I guess we have to ask what the purpose of modeling is? For the most part, I would guess it is to sell something, and for purposes of this argument, clothing. To that regard, the models shoudl reflect the target market. If you are trying to sell clothing to size 6 women, model it on size 6 women, not size 12 women, and not on size 0- women. Likewise, if you are trying to sell clothing to size 24 women, model it on size 24 women, not size 14 women with fake padding added to them.

If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt. No matter my weight, I have a gigantic chest, a short torso, really long legs, and a flat butt. I am never going to find a model that fits that profile exactly. And short women? (who are in fact average sized, for the record) Forget it. Instead, we are always going to be idolizing a body that is out of reach for us, due to our own individual characteristics and limitations. As a whole, we need to stop looking at other people's bodies as inspirations for our own, and start working towards what OUR individual ideal is, and we should be encouraging other women (especially young women) to do the same. Even if I pick a healthy role model, say a female athlete, or even Jillian Michaels. When I'm striving for that- I'm still saying that what I am and who I can be isn't going to be good enough. And I'm setting myself up for constant dissatisfaction because I will always be looking for something else- something to be bigger, something to be smaller, the number in the back of my pants to be different. I will never have a round butt, or really defined calves. My muscle structure isn't built that way. I will never be a size 4. Even at 15% body fat, I'm an 8. And, I look like an 8. I will always naturally have large breasts, and unelss I choose to surgically alter them, they will always have a mind of their own as to how they respond to gravity. I may dye my hair, but my eyes are always going to be green, I am never going to have the freckles I find so adorable on other people, my teeth will always be big, the list goes on.
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.

annnnnd that's the end of my soapbox rant.

OhMyDogs
01-13-2012, 11:34 AM
If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt....
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.


My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.

Beach Patrol
01-13-2012, 11:36 AM
And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.

Neither here nor there, but just my opinion: I completely disagree - I think VS models are very "scrawny" looking. When perusing the VS catalog, I quite often grimace at their arms.

And like I said, just my opinion. :)

SouthLake
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.

I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.

OhMyDogs
01-13-2012, 12:14 PM
I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.


I agree 100% that we need to change the perspectives of our youth. I think we need to focus on inner beauty, as opposed to outer beauty. I try to do that with my girls, but they are still young (6 and 7).

What it comes down to is, no matter what, we'll always want to change what we have (hence the huge surge in body art). But what I hope for, for my children, is that if they want to change something about themselves, it's with something that marks their individuality (hair colour, tattoos or piercings), rather than something that they hope will make them look just like someone else.

princessgina00
01-13-2012, 12:36 PM
That doesn't give anyone the right to say "gross! bones!"

The modeling industry is another issue entirely, but I think it's wrong to go after skinny women in general. There are many naturally skinny women who are just small. I firmly believe that while there are people who can be safely above the "Normal" BMI range that there are people who can be safely below it as well.

I think going after the modeling industry is fine, but we have to be careful how it's done. You can't say "ew, disgusting, you're bony." because there are people out there who are just naturally that way! How do you think they feel when they see that?

I have some friends who fall into that "underweight" range and they don't look as if they're starving and they're perfectly and utterly healthy. They're just built really small. Should we shame them because they're underweight? No, nobody should be shamed because of their body.

It's one of the reasons why I cringe when I hear people describe size 0 as anorexic size or something. If you're short or just small framed, size 0 might be a perfectly acceptable size to get into.

Just as it's wrong to go to an overweight person and yell at them to lose weight, it is wrong to go to a skinny person and tell them to gain.

If they have a health issue that is another matter entirely, but for the most part we should all just accept bodies for their differences and quirks.

No offense, but actually they have the right to say whatever the **** they want. It may not be nice and you and I may not like it, but this is America and anyone can say anything they want. If you don't like it, you may rebuke their comments, but you cannot try to take that right away from them.

You're right - but I think people are looking in the wrong place if they want to blame their child's potential self-image on Coco Rocha rather than their own eating habits. A mother who struggles with weight, self-image, obesity, or an eating disorder (whether at the big or small end of the spectrum) has a far greater impact.

I just find it strange that women will be up in arms about some Paris runway model (which most little girls have no clue about) but will conveniently ignore the "MODEL" that wakes them up, makes them breakfast, sends them to school, stands on her scale each morning, buys a WW cookbook, etc...

I dunno. I'm just looking at my kid while typing this and thinking, is Karl Lagerfeld going to be to blame for whatever happens? Or is it that I am here on 3FC desperately trying to maintain my loss?

Uhhh...where have you been for the last century. Don't we blame EVERYTHING on our mothers? And to pretend that outside forces do not affect our perspectives is truly naive. No one wears high heels because they thought that they were beautiful and would be great footwear to wear. No, they wear them because they saw someone else (probably in an advertisement) wear them. Advertising isn't just a business. It's a truly effective one.

I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?

I just think that while we jump to point out anorexic models and get angered by normal weight adults used as plus size models, we don't judge nearly as harshly on obesity? Isn't that as dangerous as anorexia?

We are so afraid that young children will look to these models and think they are the norm - how are they going to think that when, as someone pointed out earlier on this thread that 50% of women are a size 14 or higher...

Yes, let's concentrate on the ONE show out of HUNDREDS on TV that has people that aren't underweight or look like "traditional" stars. I don't know what TV you've been watching lately, but just about EVERY show has (at least) two (apparent) anorexics talking to each other. And, they do nothing but talk about being fat or trying to lose weight on Mike and Molly. It's why I stopped watching that show. Why can't two fat people on a show lead normal lives? Why do they always have to constantly talk about their weight? Also, what do you mean we don't judge obesity as harshly as anorexia? This society does nothing but judge obese persons. Clearly, you don't like them.

Oh, and to the person that says that model's haven't gotten thinner, we've just gotten fatter, that's half true. Although the U.S. has gotten fatter over the years, models have also gotten thinner. Compare today's models to models from the 40s or 50s (Marilyn, Rita, Marlene) or even the 80s (Christy, Cindy). Today's models are definitely at least 20 pounds lighter than the models from the 80s. The models from the 80s had thin and fit (slightly muscular) bodies. The models from today are bones and skin.

grneyedmustang
01-13-2012, 12:40 PM
I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?



There was an "uproar" when Mike & Molly first aired. A magazine editor talked about how "gross and disgusting" it was to see "two fatties" rolling around.

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/dating-blog/overweight-couples-on-television

She later apologized for the insensitive remarks she made regarding people that have weight issues.

sacha
01-13-2012, 01:19 PM
No offense, but actually they have the right to say whatever the **** they want. It may not be nice and you and I may not like it, but this is America and anyone can say anything they want. If you don't like it, you may rebuke their comments, but you cannot try to take that right away from them.


And if someone called you disgusting and gross due to your weight on here, do you think that would be permitted? Now, I'm not American, but last time I checked, the 1st amendment right to free speech did not exist on a privately-run forum.

Oh, because we're talking about people who are underweight, it is okay??

As for your last condescending comments, nobody is pretending that this stuff doesn't permeate through - but look in your own mirror before condemning others. Me getting upset about the scale at home has far greater on my child than some random Paris runway.

lm3898
01-13-2012, 01:29 PM
There was an "uproar" when Mike & Molly first aired. A magazine editor talked about how "gross and disgusting" it was to see "two fatties" rolling around.

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/dating-blog/overweight-couples-on-television

You're right and what happened? She had to apologize due to the backlash she received. The magazine also apologized on her behalf. Additionally, this is a blogger hired to push the envelope.

I'm sick of reading every day that Leanne Rimes is anorexic or is too thin - where are the headlines that Melissa McCarthy is too fat? It's ok to go after models b/c children might get the wrong idea about their body types but not actresses or actors. People are afraid of their children seeing thin models but not people like Chris Farley, or Kennan Thompson, or Melissa McCarthy?


I don't find humor in or am able to support a show like M&M when faced with the fact that nearly 70% of US adults are considered overweight or obese and 20% of children are obese.

I feel bad for people who are anorexic, I hope they seek help - I feel the same for morbidly obese people...because both are extremely dangerous. Being morbidly obese is not ok, it's not healthy, it's not normal. It is the same as being anorexic - also not healthy, not normal...I just wish that we could equally address both.


To be VERY clear, I do not hate fat or obese people and am not trying to pick on anyone, I just want to know why it's ok to pick apart some modeling criteria and not the other side of the scale when it is clear more people fall on that side.

grneyedmustang
01-13-2012, 01:39 PM
To be VERY clear, I do not hate fat or obese people and am not trying to pick on anyone, I just want to know why it's ok to pick apart some modeling criteria and not the other side of the scale when it is clear more people fall on that side.

IMO, "fat bashing" is one of last forms of "acceptable" hate. Just look around, there are people who assume that everyone that is overweight sits around and eats twinkies all day and doesn't exercise - therefore, the people on the other side of the coin catch it as much as the "models". In fact, I think WE catch it more.

If you think that those on the other side of the coin aren't hearing it (I can't tell you how many times I've received my favorite advice in regard to losing weight - "Just move more" or "Just eat less"), here's a few articles that may help you to rethink that perspective:

http://www.ieatreal.com/278
http://www.diet.com/dietblogs/read_blog.php?title=&blid=24234
http://john-kehl.suite101.com/fat-bashing-in-america-a309966

I am NOT saying that we stick our heads in the sand, sing Kumbaya, and act like this country does not have an obesity problem (and a huge issue with processed foods, but that's a rant for another day). We do. But at the same time, I think it is a bit naive to think that those that are "overweight" don't catch flack or "hear it" for being overweight.

/Drops mic and gets off :soap:

lm3898
01-13-2012, 01:46 PM
I never said it was OK to bash someone for being overweight, I'm just saying let's not promote it. I get it, I was over weight, I'm not under-weight, I'm still ABOVE average...and I have been teased and bullyed for it. It just really irkes me that all the crap - McDonalds Happy Meals, school fitness budgets being cut etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and the huge weight problem in the U.S. that we already have to deal with, that now we are having shows come out like this.

I understand body acceptance - but there is something wrong with accepting morbid obesity, the same way it is wrong with excepting a skeletal frame. It is WRONG to bully or bash someone for being over-weight, but it is also wrong that over-weight has become the new average.

40lbsPLEASE
01-13-2012, 01:59 PM
And if someone called you disgusting and gross due to your weight on here, do you think that would be permitted? Now, I'm not American, but last time I checked, the 1st amendment right to free speech did not exist on a privately-run forum.

Oh, because we're talking about people who are underweight, it is okay??

As for your last condescending comments, nobody is pretending that this stuff doesn't permeate through - but look in your own mirror before condemning others. Me getting upset about the scale at home has far greater on my child than some random Paris runway.

No one called anyone any names, as far as I'm concerned. *I* said this... "sharp bones poking thru your clothes, blech". And it IS blech, TO *ME*. MY fat rolls and stretch marks are blech to *ME*, too! It's called an opinion, and I simply stated mine. We all have 'em. A person, IMO, should not be tagged 'disgusting' by the way they look. Now something about someone may LOOK 'disgusting' to someone else, but those are two seperate issues, in my book. Yes, I have a book. Would anyone care to read it? hahaha, totally kidding.

EagleRiverDee
01-13-2012, 02:20 PM
You know, I am going to be honest here. Yes, this is a bad example for children, both little boys and girls. Girls, it is so obvious - but boys too. After all, male eating disorders exist, not to mention the "image" of a woman that they look to.

On the other hand - I think we should admit that obesity is also a horrible example and the rising statistics of childhood obesity is a direct reflection as well.

I agree with this comment. I am appalled that the model in that story was only a size 12 and she is considered "plus sized". I am appalled that ever since Kate Moss hit the modeling scene the "ideal" body seems to be more that super-skinny anorexic look than a normal woman. That's not right.

But I also believe that the push for acceptance of obesity has a potential backlash. Don't get me wrong- no one should be discriminated against, mocked or bullied because they are overweight. But at the same token, there should be a push towards achieving a healthy weight.

midwife
01-13-2012, 02:21 PM
Whew! Lots of passionate opinions in here! I'd like to just put out a quick reminder of forum rules:

9. Respect toward fellow members is expected. You agree not to harass, flame, insult, taunt, or otherwise disrespect any member of this forum. In other words, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. This includes gossiping about another member. This requirement is meant to encourage the overall strength of our support system, and will benefit our community as a whole.

gagalu
01-13-2012, 02:21 PM
this explains how i can feel fatter than ever at a size 10. it's sad what marketing does to people.

40lbsPLEASE
01-13-2012, 03:25 PM
I like toast! :dizzy:

mandalinn82
01-13-2012, 04:52 PM
I respectfully disagree that thinner people don't face name calling and general disapproval from society. Society calls people who are naturally skinny or bony all kinds of unpleasant names, and often assumes that they have an eating disorder (ie, referring to "anorexic models") or a drug problem. It's socially acceptable to say these things about naturally thin people, just as it is socially acceptable to say negative things about overweight people. Both, IMO, are wrong.

Consider, for example, the media coverage of someone like Leann Rimes. When she was younger, she weighed more than she does today. She was ridiculed in the media for being "chunky" or "chubby" throughout her teen years.

Now, she is skinnier. I have NO IDEA what methods she uses to maintain her weight, but she certainly is on the skinnier side of things. And now she is being roundly bullied by the media for being "too thin".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/31/giuliana-rancic-wont-fight-with-leann-rimes-about-weight-comments_n_943519.html

Clearly the media doesn't accept Rimes' weight where it is, and she is ridiculed for it, so it's not true that society accepts people who are naturally thin and not those who are heavier. And if Rancic's comment had been the other way? "Gosh, she's had a lot of stress lately, she's really put on weight, and she looks better a bit thinner, she should really come to my house so I can make her a salad". Would that be OK?

For heaven's sake, I just found a thread on a message board where people were voting on whether her frame is due to "meth face or anorexia".

We can't call people "anorexic" on the one hand, then say that "society accepts them" in another. Those are contradictory. Clearly if we're calling them derogatory names implying underweight, they're no less socially accepted than those who would be called derogatory names implying overweight (fat cow, etc). Which I think was Sacha's point in asking why people who have experienced being ridiculed or called names for being "too heavy" according to society's perceptions would think it was somehow different to ridicule or call people names (and "anorexic" is as much name calling as "fat cow", IMO) for being "too thin".

Even at my lowest weight (which was BARELY at a "normal" BMI), I was told the following: "You're obsessed with exercise", "You're anorexic and need to eat more", "You need to eat a hamburger", "You really should cut back on the exercise", and many more. People much skinnier than me get that, to a greater degree. How many comments have you seen on how someone thin needs to "eat a sandwich"?

It's no more OK, on 3FC or, IMO, in general, for someone to bash thin people than it is for people to bash people who are heavier. And we, as a forum, try to discourage BOTH. So, side note, if you DO see people fat bashing OR skinny bashing, please report the posts to the moderators.