Metabolic Research Center - Muscle Loss




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ynapier
11-26-2011, 06:13 PM
Friday at WI I was questioned about where I got my HNS since it was not from the center. I told the consultant that it was Body Fortress. She then told me that I had lost at total of 10 pounds of muscle since I started in late September. This was a concern to me because I know that I need to keep muscle to maintain once I reach goal. She basically told me that if I had been using the center's HNS, I would not have lost the muscle. But if I'm getting 15 grams of protein from the Body Fortress, I use just over 1/2 a scoop, then shouldn't it protect my muscle. Also I have been doing total body cardio on the Gazelle 5 days a week. I thought this would also help keep the muscle that I have. I have decided, after much thought, that I am going to use the center HNS for at least 2 of my 4 protein drinks and will start doing some calisthenics in addition to my cardio. I was wondering if y'all had any other suggestions. The loss in muscle has me concerned. I would like the get as much of that 10 pounds of muscle back even if it means a gain over a couple of WIs.


MariaMaria
11-26-2011, 06:38 PM
Your "consultant" is jerking you around to make a sale. My suggestion is to take your business somewhere else, but admittedly I'm a cynical b*tch.

fitbyforty
11-26-2011, 08:17 PM
I am a little suspicious as well.How does she know how much muscle you lost?


bigdog
11-26-2011, 10:29 PM
Friday at WI I was questioned about where I got my HNS since it was not from the center. I told the consultant that it was Body Fortress. She then told me that I had lost at total of 10 pounds of muscle since I started in late September. This was a concern to me because I know that I need to keep muscle to maintain once I reach goal. She basically told me that if I had been using the center's HNS, I would not have lost the muscle. But if I'm getting 15 grams of protein from the Body Fortress, I use just over 1/2 a scoop, then shouldn't it protect my muscle. Also I have been doing total body cardio on the Gazelle 5 days a week. I thought this would also help keep the muscle that I have. I have decided, after much thought, that I am going to use the center HNS for at least 2 of my 4 protein drinks and will start doing some calisthenics in addition to my cardio. I was wondering if y'all had any other suggestions. The loss in muscle has me concerned. I would like the get as much of that 10 pounds of muscle back even if it means a gain over a couple of WIs.

The MRC counselors are salespeople and get commission off what they sell. what she told you is total BS and i would totally call her on it. i would print out the nutritional data from their HNSs and from your Body Fortress and show it to her. at my last weigh in after losing 22 lbs and 24.5 inches, my counselor questioned me again about not taking their supplements and buying their HNSs (i get everything from Diet Direct) she made a comment that i didn't lose very much from my waist because i'm not taking Cortitrim. how about suggesting i do sit ups or maybe i was PMSing. oh, NO, everything can be solved by buying their stupid pills. i love the diet and love the protein HNSs but when they try to lie to push pills on me or say stuff like their vitamins are better than what you can buy yourself is such BS.

bigdog
11-27-2011, 08:51 AM
Friday at WI I was questioned about where I got my HNS since it was not from the center. I told the consultant that it was Body Fortress. She then told me that I had lost at total of 10 pounds of muscle since I started in late September. This was a concern to me because I know that I need to keep muscle to maintain once I reach goal. She basically told me that if I had been using the center's HNS, I would not have lost the muscle. But if I'm getting 15 grams of protein from the Body Fortress, I use just over 1/2 a scoop, then shouldn't it protect my muscle. Also I have been doing total body cardio on the Gazelle 5 days a week. I thought this would also help keep the muscle that I have. I have decided, after much thought, that I am going to use the center HNS for at least 2 of my 4 protein drinks and will start doing some calisthenics in addition to my cardio. I was wondering if y'all had any other suggestions. The loss in muscle has me concerned. I would like the get as much of that 10 pounds of muscle back even if it means a gain over a couple of WIs.

meant to say also that if i buy the HNSs from the center, i can get them 5 for $55 and if you get them online at Diet Direct, they are usually $10.95 (Protidiet i was told is the same as what is sold at the center) so no difference. i buy the large container of Pink Lemonade which is cheaper and not the individual packets that come 7 to a box... i live an hour from the center too and just prefer to order online... but it's your decision of course. i do like the clear HNS (pink lemonade) instead of just doing the protein powders... (i use the protein powders (syntrax nectar brand) for two HNS and the pink lemonade for the other 2. i try to do 4 a day...

nwcgina
11-27-2011, 04:36 PM
There is nothing "magic" about their protein drinks...ingesting more protein during calorie restriction can help preserve muscle...but unless you are doing a lot of strength training, you will always lose some muscle with weight loss/calorie restriction. But the idea is to minimize it by using protein and exercising. Strength training is the best way to preserve muscle. They told my mom the drinks help burn fat, which is not true (it does take a few more calories to digest protein than carbs, but the difference is miniscule).

I teach Exercise Physiology at a college so these are the things I academically "know", but I will say that I needed the behavioral intervention and I have found that following their program exactly, including their HNS drinks, I behaviorally eat what I should rather than cheating. When I started using other protein drinks, I tended to go off plan in other areas. Again, there was nothing magic about their's, but it was my mindset. I still do use some body fortress if I want a chocolate fix & already had a creamy.

Best thing you can do to preserve muscle during calorie restriction is to strength train 2-3x a week. If you lose muscle it is harder to maintain because you burn fewer calories at rest.

And I don't know if this is how they figured it...but if they take a body comp and a body weight reading, you can figure out how much fat free mass (bones & muscles) a person has and be able to figure out how much fat has been lost and how much has been muscle.

Tamikl
11-27-2011, 06:18 PM
I don't know...I haven't done any strength training since I started this diet. I have continued Cardio only at the request of my counselor. Her reasoning is that if I continue the weights, with the added protein supplements in my diet, the scale will go up since protein feeds muscle....even though the "up" from muscle is good, it does weight more than fat, so I might get discouraged not seeing the scale go down....so she advised me to wait until I hit goal to re-introduce strength training. I was under the impression that I would maintain the muscle mass I already had, not lose it on this diet!?!? Isn't it true that water weight weighs more than even muscle?

bigdog
11-27-2011, 07:08 PM
I don't know...I haven't done any strength training since I started this diet. I have continued Cardio only at the request of my counselor. Her reasoning is that if I continue the weights, with the added protein supplements in my diet, the scale will go up since protein feeds muscle....even though the "up" from muscle is good, it does weight more than fat, so I might get discouraged not seeing the scale go down....so she advised me to wait until I hit goal to re-introduce strength training. I was under the impression that I would maintain the muscle mass I already had, not lose it on this diet!?!? Isn't it true that water weight weighs more than even muscle?

one of my counselors said not to lift weights in the beginning stages and another counselor told me i could have continued to lift weights. now i'm curious on what is the right answer... i wouldn't think we should be encouraged to exercise less, even strength training. maybe not right before weigh in day or the morning of? i've lost fat and not muscle according to my last weigh in and i've never bought any of the HNSs from MRC.....

ynapier
11-27-2011, 08:14 PM
They did the body comp on the scale where there is a metal plate on the bottom and you take your socks off and wait for the beep. I don't know how accurate this method is however. I'm feeling much better about the whole situation today. I also use the protein from Diet Direct and do like it for a change in flavor. A couple of things I didn't mention was the fact that my husband has only lost 1 pound of muscle and he doesn't drink their protein either. I looked at the ingredient list on their protein and it's hydrolyzed gelatin. That also made me think it wasn't the protein. Maybe it's my body. I don't know. I'm still going to do some light strength training 3 days a week and see what happens. You guys are the best. Thanks for the advice and support.

Fluffy in Florida
11-27-2011, 09:36 PM
It also depends on some of the other numbers. Your impedance level plays a lot in it. If they know what they are talking about they will explain that to you. I had the same issue to begin with but my impedance off. When I got it under control my FFM went back to normal.

nwcgina
11-27-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't know...I haven't done any strength training since I started this diet. I have continued Cardio only at the request of my counselor. Her reasoning is that if I continue the weights, with the added protein supplements in my diet, the scale will go up since protein feeds muscle....even though the "up" from muscle is good, it does weight more than fat, so I might get discouraged not seeing the scale go down....so she advised me to wait until I hit goal to re-introduce strength training. I was under the impression that I would maintain the muscle mass I already had, not lose it on this diet!?!? Isn't it true that water weight weighs more than even muscle?

I'll post more explanation below...but yes, sometimes you will have more weight fluctuations with strength training (heavy strength training or heavy cardio can lead to water retention, but that can subsides in about 48 hours post). I do agree that if you would be discouraged with the fluctuations, to hold off on strength training. Obviously since you've done so well it is working for you.

as for if water weighs more than muscle...a pound is a pound. Water takes up more space (as does fat) whereas muscle takes up less and looks better:) Protein doesn't "feed" muscle, it builds muscle. I'm going to expand on that in the next post...

nwcgina
11-27-2011, 10:43 PM
Okay, so first I'll wear my academic hat (ignore if you like), then the practical side hat.

When you have a calorie deficit your body burns both excess fat and muscle to fuel itself. The idea behind a higher protein diet like this is that it is supposed to minimize the muscle loss (some research supports this) versus if you cut protein. Your body cannot make protein, it has to be ingested. Your body is fueled for energy by carbohydrates...which is why I would never try low carb diet until I saw this which totally makes sense physiologically...your body can't make protein from carbs, but it can make carbs (stored in your body in the muscle as glycogen) from fat and protein. It's not a very easy process...but that is why something like MRC works. Remember how the first few days on detox and start of the plans you had a lot of muscle fatigue, but then as time went on you had more energy? Your body got better at using fat and protein to convert it to carbs. Neat, huh?

A majority of our calories are burned through what is called resting metabolic rate. This is influenced by your age, gender, height, genetics...none of which we can do anything about. But it is also influenced by your lean body mass (muscle). So everything you can do to preserve it (or build it) will help you burn more calories at rest.

A couple other things research shows. 1. Women's success at weight loss is more influenced by their nutrition than exercise (partly because we lack the testosterone to build big muscles) and 2. When people exercise a lot then have a tendency to overeat...and it's really hard to burn 500 calories in a workout, but darn easy to overeat by that many.

Okay, so academic hat off now...I had always tried to outexercise my mediocre eating habits (they weren't horrible, but bad enough to keep me stuck at 183 after having been up to 220). So when I started this I knew I had to focus on the eating side...and have kept in my mind that until I hit maintenance or get closer to my goal, I am not going to try and build my exercise. I do, however, want to maintain my muscle (I don't want to be skinny fat) and maintain my cardio. I have been doing mainly body weight strength (in my opinion this is sufficient for most people doing weight loss to maintain muscle mass...push ups, squats, lunges, etc.) with some light weights or resistance bands. I do some yoga, some pilates, some walking...and last night after taking a month off I went for a run. I ran 2 miles and it felt so good. I kept telling myself "it feels so much better being 10 lbs lighter, can you imagine the next 25??" Again, I'm not going to build my running now, but when I get to my goal in the spring I am definitely training for a triathlon.

So, in short. Nutrition is first and most important (especially for women) and exercise is 2nd and should be an accessory...like a great necklace. Whatever works for you is best.

I hope I didn't step on toes or anything. I'm still working on what I academically know and what people are experiencing in the real world. Since I started focusing on nutrition...really focusing on it...I finally broke through where I had been stuck for 2 years.

PS-now having said that...I went off plan for the first time in a month...was out to eat and was being so good...then the waiter (one of my former students) brought us cheesecake. Oh yes, I had a couple bites and am going to go undo some of that naughtiness on the elliptical...it was just so nice of him...sigh...can't outwork a bad diet...have to remember that! :)

bigdog
11-27-2011, 11:11 PM
Okay, so first I'll wear my academic hat (ignore if you like), then the practical side hat.

When you have a calorie deficit your body burns both excess fat and muscle to fuel itself. The idea behind a higher protein diet like this is that it is supposed to minimize the muscle loss (some research supports this) versus if you cut protein. Your body cannot make protein, it has to be ingested. Your body is fueled for energy by carbohydrates...which is why I would never try low carb diet until I saw this which totally makes sense physiologically...your body can't make protein from carbs, but it can make carbs (stored in your body in the muscle as glycogen) from fat and protein. It's not a very easy process...but that is why something like MRC works. Remember how the first few days on detox and start of the plans you had a lot of muscle fatigue, but then as time went on you had more energy? Your body got better at using fat and protein to convert it to carbs. Neat, huh?

A majority of our calories are burned through what is called resting metabolic rate. This is influenced by your age, gender, height, genetics...none of which we can do anything about. But it is also influenced by your lean body mass (muscle). So everything you can do to preserve it (or build it) will help you burn more calories at rest.

A couple other things research shows. 1. Women's success at weight loss is more influenced by their nutrition than exercise (partly because we lack the testosterone to build big muscles) and 2. When people exercise a lot then have a tendency to overeat...and it's really hard to burn 500 calories in a workout, but darn easy to overeat by that many.

Okay, so academic hat off now...I had always tried to outexercise my mediocre eating habits (they weren't horrible, but bad enough to keep me stuck at 183 after having been up to 220). So when I started this I knew I had to focus on the eating side...and have kept in my mind that until I hit maintenance or get closer to my goal, I am not going to try and build my exercise. I do, however, want to maintain my muscle (I don't want to be skinny fat) and maintain my cardio. I have been doing mainly body weight strength (in my opinion this is sufficient for most people doing weight loss to maintain muscle mass...push ups, squats, lunges, etc.) with some light weights or resistance bands. I do some yoga, some pilates, some walking...and last night after taking a month off I went for a run. I ran 2 miles and it felt so good. I kept telling myself "it feels so much better being 10 lbs lighter, can you imagine the next 25??" Again, I'm not going to build my running now, but when I get to my goal in the spring I am definitely training for a triathlon.

So, in short. Nutrition is first and most important (especially for women) and exercise is 2nd and should be an accessory...like a great necklace. Whatever works for you is best.

I hope I didn't step on toes or anything. I'm still working on what I academically know and what people are experiencing in the real world. Since I started focusing on nutrition...really focusing on it...I finally broke through where I had been stuck for 2 years.

PS-now having said that...I went off plan for the first time in a month...was out to eat and was being so good...then the waiter (one of my former students) brought us cheesecake. Oh yes, I had a couple bites and am going to go undo some of that naughtiness on the elliptical...it was just so nice of him...sigh...can't outwork a bad diet...have to remember that! :)

Saving this information - this is good stuff! :-) what's good about the MRC diet to me is the additional protein and you can still eat veggies and have two carbs a day. i walk 3-4 miles every am 5 days a week minimum and just recently have added riding my exercise bike in the pm. actually to counteract the add'l calories and wine from the holidays! Plus i want to tighten up and gain more muscle. just got off the bike and i like the "burn" i'm planning on starting weights this week too. i wanted to get the majority of my weight off before i started lifting weights again (that's just me) was concentrating on mostly the diet before. i've always rolled out of bed each am and walked - that's habit now for a long time.
Cheesecake is one thing i could not turn down, not for a minute!!! i would ride my bike or walk more to burn it off... it is worth it!! :-)

bigdog
11-27-2011, 11:27 PM
It also depends on some of the other numbers. Your impedance level plays a lot in it. If they know what they are talking about they will explain that to you. I had the same issue to begin with but my impedance off. When I got it under control my FFM went back to normal.

this is interesting...just googled impedance and came up w/ this via New Fitness website...

"Using BIA to estimate person's body fat assumes that the body is within normal hydration ranges. When a person is dehydrated, the amount of fat tissue can be overestimated. Factors that can affect hydration include not drinking enough fluids, drinking too much caffeine or alcohol, exercising or eating just before measuring, certain prescription drugs or diuretics, illness, or a woman's menstrual cycle. Measuring under consistent conditions (proper hydration and same time of day) will yield best results with this method."

so maybe if the results aren't what you expected, ask the counselor to retest.. i don't know about you guys but when i go to weigh in, i try not to drink hardly any water in the am so it's not water weight...

nwcgina
11-27-2011, 11:50 PM
this is interesting...just googled impedance and came up w/ this via New Fitness website...

"Using BIA to estimate person's body fat assumes that the body is within normal hydration ranges. When a person is dehydrated, the amount of fat tissue can be overestimated. Factors that can affect hydration include not drinking enough fluids, drinking too much caffeine or alcohol, exercising or eating just before measuring, certain prescription drugs or diuretics, illness, or a woman's menstrual cycle. Measuring under consistent conditions (proper hydration and same time of day) will yield best results with this method."

so maybe if the results aren't what you expected, ask the counselor to retest.. i don't know about you guys but when i go to weigh in, i try not to drink hardly any water in the am so it's not water weight...

I meant to bring this up, too. BIA is really skewed by hydration status and if you are using the one you stand on, it only measures the lower half of your body (so if you had a change in your upper body that is different than lower body, it can show changes...maybe you lost muscle in your legs, but maintained or gained in the arms, that wouldn't show). They have handheld ones as well, but those have the same problems. Even at the same hydration status, there is a margin of error with the BIA.

bigdog
11-27-2011, 11:59 PM
I meant to bring this up, too. BIA is really skewed by hydration status and if you are using the one you stand on, it only measures the lower half of your body (so if you had a change in your upper body that is different than lower body, it can show changes...maybe you lost muscle in your legs, but maintained or gained in the arms, that wouldn't show). They have handheld ones as well, but those have the same problems. Even at the same hydration status, there is a margin of error with the BIA.

YNapier has lost over 40 lbs which is incredible!! i just hate when some of the counselors make us feel bad...it bothers me more when it's other people this happens to...sounds like a misreading and a way for the pushy counselor to sell more HNSs...

Thanks for all this information, Gina, i cut and pasted it to keep in my metabolic folder. what i'm working toward is gaining more muscle so i'll be burning calories at a resting state - LOL! in a perfect world!

ynapier
11-28-2011, 10:49 AM
Bigdog - I have actually lost just over 30 pounds.

Thanks for all the encourgement. I did eat before I went this time and normally do not. I also had additional water before I went. I have questioned the accuracy of the body comp measurements since you are just standing on metal plates. I'm doing lunges, squats, pushups and dips in addition to my cardio. I have just started so it's not a lot of reps yet but I want to get up to 3 sets of 10 to 12 of each. I'm not there yet but I will get there.

Gina - Thanks for the great info. I am going to add it to my file on MRC stuff also.

bigdog
11-28-2011, 11:08 AM
Bigdog - I have actually lost just over 30 pounds.

Thanks for all the encourgement. I did eat before I went this time and normally do not. I also had additional water before I went. I have questioned the accuracy of the body comp measurements since you are just standing on metal plates. I'm doing lunges, squats, pushups and dips in addition to my cardio. I have just started so it's not a lot of reps yet but I want to get up to 3 sets of 10 to 12 of each. I'm not there yet but I will get there.

Gina - Thanks for the great info. I am going to add it to my file on MRC stuff also.

well, 32 lbs is incredible!!!! sorry can't subtract - still trying to get it together after all these days off for the holiday! i don't know if i could drink the water before weigh in - i've tested that on my own scale. weighed and then drank a couple glasses of water - it reflected like 2 lbs more... anyway, i'm sure when they do the test again it will come out normal. i just realized my weight watcher scale at home also has the metal strips on it and is supposed to show fat vs. muscle weight. i'll have to plug in my weight, etc and see what they reads....

Tamikl
11-28-2011, 01:36 PM
Okay, so first I'll wear my academic hat (ignore if you like), then the practical side hat.

When you have a calorie deficit your body burns both excess fat and muscle to fuel itself. The idea behind a higher protein diet like this is that it is supposed to minimize the muscle loss (some research supports this) versus if you cut protein. Your body cannot make protein, it has to be ingested. Your body is fueled for energy by carbohydrates...which is why I would never try low carb diet until I saw this which totally makes sense physiologically...your body can't make protein from carbs, but it can make carbs (stored in your body in the muscle as glycogen) from fat and protein. It's not a very easy process...but that is why something like MRC works. Remember how the first few days on detox and start of the plans you had a lot of muscle fatigue, but then as time went on you had more energy? Your body got better at using fat and protein to convert it to carbs. Neat, huh?

A majority of our calories are burned through what is called resting metabolic rate. This is influenced by your age, gender, height, genetics...none of which we can do anything about. But it is also influenced by your lean body mass (muscle). So everything you can do to preserve it (or build it) will help you burn more calories at rest.

A couple other things research shows. 1. Women's success at weight loss is more influenced by their nutrition than exercise (partly because we lack the testosterone to build big muscles) and 2. When people exercise a lot then have a tendency to overeat...and it's really hard to burn 500 calories in a workout, but darn easy to overeat by that many.

Okay, so academic hat off now...I had always tried to outexercise my mediocre eating habits (they weren't horrible, but bad enough to keep me stuck at 183 after having been up to 220). So when I started this I knew I had to focus on the eating side...and have kept in my mind that until I hit maintenance or get closer to my goal, I am not going to try and build my exercise. I do, however, want to maintain my muscle (I don't want to be skinny fat) and maintain my cardio. I have been doing mainly body weight strength (in my opinion this is sufficient for most people doing weight loss to maintain muscle mass...push ups, squats, lunges, etc.) with some light weights or resistance bands. I do some yoga, some pilates, some walking...and last night after taking a month off I went for a run. I ran 2 miles and it felt so good. I kept telling myself "it feels so much better being 10 lbs lighter, can you imagine the next 25??" Again, I'm not going to build my running now, but when I get to my goal in the spring I am definitely training for a triathlon.

So, in short. Nutrition is first and most important (especially for women) and exercise is 2nd and should be an accessory...like a great necklace. Whatever works for you is best.

I hope I didn't step on toes or anything. I'm still working on what I academically know and what people are experiencing in the real world. Since I started focusing on nutrition...really focusing on it...I finally broke through where I had been stuck for 2 years.

PS-now having said that...I went off plan for the first time in a month...was out to eat and was being so good...then the waiter (one of my former students) brought us cheesecake. Oh yes, I had a couple bites and am going to go undo some of that naughtiness on the elliptical...it was just so nice of him...sigh...can't outwork a bad diet...have to remember that! :)

THANK YOU for taking the time to share all of this information!! Very informative...

camaswa
12-03-2011, 11:48 AM
These posts have been so helpful! I have been concerned about muscle loss - I sorta knew what Gina says but didn't quite get it. Now I do! I went on a low calorie diet once through a hospital and ended up losing a lot of muscle. Why didn't they teach this?? Needless to say, I began gaining back immediately because my resting metabolism was lowered. So far on MRC I have not lost any muscle. And I have started seeing a trainer. I love the way strength work makes me look and feel. I see changes fast, even at my age. Btw, someone yesterday told me I look much younger now!!!

I am weighing in at the center this morning. On my scales I have lost .5 since thanksgiving. I hope I dont weigh as up on theirs. Considering the week I have had with all-day meetings, business dinners and no workouts, I think I have done great.

Edited after I got home: on their scales I lost a whole pound! That's 20 pounds now. I am SO anxious to see those 160s and my long lost friend: size 12.

nwcgina
12-04-2011, 12:27 AM
Woo hoo! 20 lbs is amazing. And strength training is the best...good for you for hiring a trainer.

birdfeet
12-08-2011, 12:47 AM
YNapier has lost over 40 lbs which is incredible!! i just hate when some of the counselors make us feel bad...it bothers me more when it's other people this happens to...sounds like a misreading and a way for the pushy counselor to sell more HNSs...

Thanks for all this information, Gina, i cut and pasted it to keep in my metabolic folder. what i'm working toward is gaining more muscle so i'll be burning calories at a resting state - LOL! in a perfect world!

We had some of those and they no longer work for the company. They have to be more supportive to help the people with the weight loss,not to destroy what we have done.

birdfeet
12-08-2011, 12:55 AM
I have never been one to do much exerciseing until now. My body won't let me do a whole lot but it is getting better at letting me walk more. I just need to figure out how to get myself into the exercise mode all the time,it helps when I walk more. So far have lost 56 LBS since June this year. Still have about 40 more to go. Reading what you girls have said to each other ha helped in also. Thanks everyone for being there and helping each other out.