Faith Based Support Groups - Do you REALLY want to be healthy?




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Kelli
09-24-2011, 12:10 PM
I am furious!! I have been reading a book called the diet myth. It says that people who have a BMI index between 25–29.9 (the “overweight category) are the healthiest, and have the least incidence of disease. The author says that people who are in the obese category are next. the people who are in the optimum weight category die the youngest!

They also did a study and found that a high percentage of women in the “optimum” weight category have anorexic markers, such as the drive to be perfect. Also a high percentage of them are smokers. Who do you think funded the BMI movement??? The billion dollar a year Pharmaceuticals and the Weight loss industries.

I decided to do a little checking of statistical studies and surveys on my own, and found this to be correct! I mean the one that is the most obvious 2011 Census women live 5 years longer than men. Yet women are significantly more obese than men! There are MANY studies done that prove being "fat" can protect you from cardiac events! You don't ever hear about those studies however, because they are funded by Pharmaceuticals and the Weight loss industries!

AAARRRGG! I feel like I have wasted so many years trying to fit into the "Ideal weight" When I am the ideal HEALTHY weight!!! Not Hollywood ideal! AND.. Of course the government and powers that be (Pharisees) are in their Pharmaceuticals and the Weight loss industry pockets so they jump on the bandwagon, with no thought for the safety of billions of people they are supposed to protect!

The diet industry and pharmaceuticals blame the failure of their products on the weak characters of their customers. They have taken a sin (vanity) and dressed it up and made it look like a virtue!


puneri
09-24-2011, 12:28 PM
how do u feel after your weightloss healthy or unhealthy? i have experienced i feel good while seeing in the mirror.. and able to move quickly from one place to other. I feel that is part of being healthy.
100 different scientists and doctors have 100 different openions and theories. afterall what you feel is the most important thing.

Kelli
09-24-2011, 12:35 PM
I am not talking about physical fitness, that has nothing to do with weight. I am talking about weight. If you are an active obese person, you are healthier than a person who is in the "optimum" weight category. Look it up for yourself. that is fine if you want to be skinny, just call it what it is and don't expect God to bless it. For years I couldn't understand why God would not let me get to my "ideal weight" when I was trying so hard to do what He told me to do. Now I know He wants me to be healthy.


kaplods
09-24-2011, 01:08 PM
Yep, I've read the research, and have known for at least 20 years that a "little" overweight has been found to be the healthiest group in many research studies.

They're all correlational studies though, and the don't seperate out the people who are "a little underweight" or significantly underweight because of health problems.

As for women living longer than men, weight isn't necessarily a factor. I remember in college learning that significantly more boys are conceived than girls, and yet the difference is almost nil at birth. At all ages (even in the womb), males have higher mortality rates than females.

Also these are not only correlational studies, they also only reflect trends. Just because the trend suggests that a bit of extra fat may protect people in some way, doesn't mean it's protecting all of us.

If you're just a little bit overweight and have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, or other health issues, losing that little bit of fat may help you. Or the fat may have nothing to do with it, and getting healthier and fitter may help you and the weight loss may be a side effect of getting fitter. If you have arthritis, even being a little overweight can have a significant impact on pain, and if you have arthritis pain, the benefits of possibly living longer versus the benefits of definitely having less pain - many will gladly choose the pain relief over longevity.

None of us can really live the averages, we can only live in our own bodies.

My goal weight keeps changing, and I don't have a goal in mind based on any chart that tells me what I'm supposed to acheive. Instead, I'm going by my checkup results and how I feel. I'm not focusing on weight loss very much, because I do stupid things when I make my journey about weight loss.

I have made it 100% about health, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the first time I've ever had long-term success. But in order to make it about health, I need to listen to my body, because the research can't tell me about my body, it can only describe trends and it takes piles and piles of research to draw personal conclusions, and even then the research can be confusing in terms of what I can and can't apply to my life.

Kelli
09-24-2011, 01:44 PM
Just because the trend suggests that a bit of extra fat may protect people in some way, doesn't mean it's protecting all of us.


I think you may be grossly understating what the research says. However, I would be very interested to learn where you get your information as I plan on becoming an expert on this.

I am tired of women feeling like they are less than a person because some billion dollar industry is trying to get into their pockets!!!

God wants us healthy, and could care less if we are fashionable.

kaplods
09-24-2011, 03:17 PM
Yes, I'm understating the research (both for and against the position that "a little extra weight is healthiest") because the amount of research on the topic is quite vast. There's no way to summarize such a large pool of data in a paragraph, when the amount of information exceeds what can be evaluated in one book, one college class, one undergraduate or even graduate degree or even one life time of study.

A person could study the subject for a lifetime and reach different conclusions than another person doing the same (in fact, there are many such someone's).

There's no easy way to summarize the research. I've been reading the research (on both sides of the argument) for at least 20 years, but as an amateur. Even though I have some background in research methodology (as a requirement for my undergraduate and graduate degree in psychology), it can be difficult to sort out the results of the research, and some people have used the same studies to reach very different conclusions.

It's not that any of the research is "wrong" it's just that the subject matter is quite complicated. Different researchers use different criteria for defining and determining health. They also use different populations.

For example there's some very interesting research that suggests that there are probably ethnic differences in the impact of "extra weight" (which may be a result of genetic or cultural differences). Then of course there's the fact that the researchers aren't always using the same definitions of ideal weight, healthy weight, extra weight and even health itself.

Off the top of my head, I can't direct you to specific research, but I'll do a little digging because I probably can at least jog my memory for titles to some of the books I've read on the subject.

I do want to clarify that I agree that the healthiest weights probably are overweight by our current standards, but I also believe that weight isn't the main health indicator at all.

We spend a lot of time in our culture worrying about our weight and not enough about the healthfulness of our diet, sleep patterns, alcohol use, stress levels and activity level (or lack of it)...

I don't think losing weight solves most people's health issues. I don't even think my weight loss has been the primary cause of my health improvements. I suspect (because of the books I've read that I'll try to remember) that the health improvements have been a result of my changes in sleep patterns, stress levels, and increased activity level.

Now some of those changes were weight mediated. Taking weight off my joints, resulted in less pressure in the joints, and therefore less pain.

Personally (because of the research I've read and my personal experiences), I think we should take the focus off of "weight" entirely. We should be focusing on eating healthier foods, getting adequate sleep, reducing stress, and moving more and being more active.

And that's the biggest problem with most of the research dealing with the healthfulness or unhealthfulness of weight - so often the research isn't comparing or even factoring in habit differences, which seems quite bizarre to me, because it seems obvious to me that habits would have more impact than weight itself.

I'm getting a bit off topic. I'll try to think of some of the research or authors that will help you find what you're looking for.

bargoo
09-24-2011, 03:47 PM
I think you may be grossly understating what the research says. However, I would be very interested to learn where you get your information as I plan on becoming an expert on this.



God wants us healthy, and could care less if we are fashionable.

I am interested in your statement that you plan on becoming an expert on this. How many years do you have to devote to this ? It takes years of research and study to become an expert on any subject. Becoming an expert is not a self appointed title. Others will detrmine if you are an expert.

kaplods
09-24-2011, 04:05 PM
Another point about being an expert, or even an amatueur, is aquiring the ability to do the digging and evaluate the research on your own.

To be able to evaluate the research, you need to have a good understanding of research methodology to be able to evaluate the research and recognize research method strengths, weaknesses, and potential errors.

Obtaining those skills without college and graduate coursework, isn't impossible, but it is extremely time consuming. It's not a self-study course for most folks.

I'm not saying that I'm not willing to do the bit of digging I offered to do, but to gain even an amateur understanding of the research, you're going to have to develop your own digging skills, and learn to tell (or at least suspect) when an author of a book or research paper is overstretching their conclusions. As bargoo pointed out, those skills take years of study to develop (and that's before delving into the specific topic that is your interest).

Pointing you to specific research doesn't really do you a lot of good, if you don't have the research methodology background, because it's extremely easy to jump to false conclusions if you don't.

I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, even though I've read thousands of research journal articles and hundreds of books that cite the research. I've taken 5 to 6 undergraduate and graduate classes that dealt specifically with research methodology and/or statistics, and another 5 or 6 classes that involved evaluating research literature as part of the coursework.

It's a skill I can't pass on in a forum like this. In fact, it's a skill I can't pass on at all, because my understanding of the topic isn't deep or broad enough to teach it.

The most I can really do is give you some book titles, but books aren't the best source of information, because the author has chosen the research to support his or her hypothesis. Another author will do the sasme to support a different hypothesis. You can read books on both sides of the argument, and that will help only if you have a basic understanding of research methodology.

If you don't, you will conclude (as you'll hear many people say) that researchers can manipulate the data to say whatever they want it to say, so statistics and research is entirely useless.

That's not true, but you have to understand the limits, strengths and weaknesses of research to be able to evaluate the research. Or you have to trust the authors to provide it for you, but that's tricky too, because you have to rely on the author's reputation, which you have to research to determine (best-selling does not mean reputable or respected in the field).


The strength of books written by true experts (assuming you've determined that the person is a true expert, and not just a popular one) is that the author compiles and interprets the research for you, but you have to trust their hypothesis - or have the skills to evaluate the author's strengths and weaknesses.

The weakness is that the authors that write books that summarize research, also tend to leave out the research that doesn't support their conclusions. Finding both sides of the argument in the same book is rare (and those are the books I'm trying to remember to pass on to you).


Going directly to the research the book author cites can help you determine whether the author is over-reaching (but only if you understand research methodology).

You also have to know the reputation of the publications in which the research articles appear.

For accuracy, peer-reviewd medical journals are the best source of information, but unless you have the research methodology background, they can be quite difficult to read and interpret (let alone evaluate).

I know I've probably made the topic even more confusing, because that's the problem with so much information. It doesn't even start to make sense until you've been studying the topic for years.

Kelli
09-24-2011, 06:26 PM
This is getting so off the point! I don't care about how to do research! If you are a Born Again Christian please pray about this. Ask God if what I am saying is the truth.

I am not saying it is okay to be morbidly obese, that's not good for you, I have interviewed numerous naturally thin women (by naturally thin I mean they don't have any of the markers for anorexia) and not one of the ones I have interviewed are dieters! They may have tried one or two, but don't make it a lifestyle.

I know it's the struggle to stay thin that make us fat! If you tell someone they can't have a drink of water they immediately want a big glass of water. If you tell someone they can't have chocolate that's what they want. then when you tell them they can't ever have it again, they fail and eat a bunch, because they think they won't get it again.

I think we naturally gain a few pounds as we age, but it's the chronic dieting that creates the desire, and we become not just a little heavier but obese. I am so mad that I have wasted so many years trying to be something that I was in my 20s! I like being a healthy size 14!

Kelli
09-24-2011, 06:46 PM
Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

It's time for Christian women to quit counting calories and quit making endless list and get busy doing what God purposed you to do. I have been so occupied for so many years with what I LOOK LIKE!!! I am so ashamed.

MonicaM
09-24-2011, 07:35 PM
I agree totally with Kaplods, and not just because she is my favorite member. I am much heavier than my twin sister, but I have good blood pressure, cholesterol, heart, etc. My twin is on meds for both BP and cholesterol, while I take only vitamins.

I believe every person is different internally, even twins.

I certainly do not feel like less of a woman because I am overweight, and I am sure my twin doesn't either.

You need to rethink your ideas.

MonicaM
09-24-2011, 07:36 PM
PS - I don't know anyone who does not want to be healthy ! ! !

Kelli
09-24-2011, 09:26 PM
Wait, Monica, you thought I was saying that you were less of a woman because you are overweight??? You misunderstood me and I am so sorry, I actually think the opposite of that. I think the more overweight you are the more will power you have. I think we are all straining to fit into a norm that is not healthy.

I get so passionate about stuff I probably need to slow down and try to write more clearly.

If you read my first post you will see that it says we have all been fooled into thinking that normal is a BMI (Body Mass Index) of 18.5-24.9 that would mean that me being 5'7"' needs to be between 118-159 pounds. Our own government says they recommend that you are between these numbers for Optimum BMI. A BMI of 25-29.9 160-191 pounds. (my 18 year old daughter who wears a size 10 pants weighs 160 pounds. She is definitely NOT overweight!) The obese category is 191.5 and over!

There are MANY studies that have proven that women who weigh in the first category "Normal" are less healthy and die younger, than those in the "overweight" category. The diet industries and pharmaceuticals are the ones who determined these norms, and because our politicians are in their pocket.

I feel really horrible that you thought I was saying that those who are overweight are not absolutely BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL, then I didn't not write what I wanted to write.

the beauty of me is my soul, the eternal part of me. The reason outer beauty is so important to the world is because Satan makes the least of us the most important part.

bargoo
09-25-2011, 09:02 AM
I do not plan on quitting counting calories or making lists, it is just these tasks that keep me at a healthy weight.

WannaBeLoserAgain
09-25-2011, 10:51 AM
Yes, I want to be healthy. I want to eat healthier. Yes, I am sick of the whoever makes weight guide lines. Years ago, "they" said 5'6" should weigh 130lbs. and that is the weight that has upset me for years.

I cannot get to 130 lbs without becoming more obsessed into exercising and this is not my life style. I think the next weight for 5'6" was 145 lbs...well, I can get there, but it still comes with lots of exercising. And, I am not willing to do that weight either.

I want a realistic weight goal for me! So, I chose 160 this time. I will still be in the "Overweight" range, but I will be able to maintain this weight, be happier, be healthier than before, and eat some of the food that I use to eat weekly.

I understand what you are saying. I cannot have the perfect ideal weight body, because I am not willing to make myself miserable doing it.

Kelli
09-25-2011, 03:02 PM
Wanna...

The point I really want to get across is that those weight guidelines are set by the diet industry! And they have made the normal category unreachable on purpose, so we will continue to spend our hard earned money on diets. There has been numerous studies and research that proves (Kaplods agrees with me on this) that those that are considered to me in the "Overweight" category (according to the BMI) are the healthiest. They live longer and have the least disease!

For years I was mad at God because I would pray, and beg, and try so hard to be "good" so I could get down to a "Normal" BMI! Oh how I thank Him now. Thank you Jesus, that He in His wisdom did not allow, or bless it. Because it's NOT HEALTHY to be so thin! NO WONDER HE DIDN'T BLESS IT!

bargoo
09-25-2011, 03:26 PM
Sorry, I just don't buy your theory. By the way my doctor who is not a nutritionist but an internist and my oncologist are quite happy to see me at the weight I am now. Much better for my health.

runningfromfat
09-25-2011, 03:39 PM
You can't just go by BMI. Really, it's about one of the silliest things in the world to base all health claims on these studies and here's why:

1. I'm currently overweight and just a bit underneath my highest adult weight (prepregnancy). However, I've been lifting weights for over half a year and been eating healthy and exercising for well over a year now. I also look drastically different than I did at this same weight in the past. The "past me" and the "present me" have the same weight and the same BMI but we're two VERY different people in terms of health.

So what doesn't BMI take into account?
- Muscle mass
- Fitness levels
- Types of foods consumed
- Non-food/non-caloric habits (smoking, diet pops, etc)


2. AGE MATTERS. Typically the young are slimmer, however, their eating habits are atrocious (ask me how I know ;) )! So even though they may be young and at a healthy BMI that does not necessary reflect what they're doing to their body.

3. Why are the people at a healthy BMI? Did they stop eating due to depression? Did medication make them lose weight? Do they have an eating disorder? Do they smoke extensively? Certainly not ALL people at a healthy BMI do these things but there are some people out there that have bad habits.

4. Genetics too. People who tend to gain weight are the ones who were "survivers" in the past. Possibly there are other genetic qualities linked to ease of putting on weight (no clue here, just postulating).

5. Exercise only sometimes causes weight gain (people use it as an excuse to eat more, for instance). However, many, many people turn to exercise first when they want to lose.
So fitnesswise they might be alright but they are still overweight.

I'm sure there are more things that I'm missing but I really don't trust studies AT ALL based on BMI. Now, if you got a study that compared BODY FAT percentage on a sliding scale and only compared people with comparable muscle mass at the same time, then, I'd be more interested. However, they'd also have to control for income level, ethnic background, gender, fitness levels, bad habits etc.

The point is, that it's VERY hard to judge by the number on the scale. Right now I still feel overweight, however, I'm infinitely healthier than I was before. I'll never get to the low end of my BMI because I have a large frame and am pretty muscular, that wouldn't be healthy either (no matter what all those charts say). The best for me (going on my past experiences in high school and college) is around 140-155lbs, right at the mid- to high-end of a healthy BMI.

In the end go by your body. Do your joints still hurt at your current weight? What do your blood tests and doc say? Do you like what you see in the mirror? Can you physically do what you want to in your life? THOSE are the important questions to ask yourself.

I also want to add that I think it's VERY dangerous advice to try and generalize and say the obese are the healthiest. I was not healthy at my highest weight. I needed to lose that weight for my joints, for my reproductive system, and for my own personal sanity. I also was going to food to deal with my problems instead of dealing them myself, which was not good for my mental health either. Telling me I was healthy then would've been silly. Instead, one should really address quality of life and where they want to be, rather than going by the BMI. I think body fat is much more accurate, it's unfortunate that we don't have any cheap, easy way to measure it. It'd be nice to have a place where you could just go, pay $10 and check quickly with calipers instead of having to turn to personal trainers and nutritionists (and many of them aren't necessarily experts or will even offer it).

sontaikle
09-25-2011, 03:53 PM
BMI is extremely arbitrary and I really would hesitate to immediately blame the diet industry for the WHO setting BMI standards. Runningfromfat laid it out more eloquently than I ever could—there are way too many factors at play to determine who is "healthy" without running a series of tests.

BMI is so arbitrary that the national and worldwide organizations can move the BMI around and decide who is healthy, overweight and obese without anyone changing their weights. This happened as recently as 1998, when the NIH changed the healthy BMI from 27.8 to 25 (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9806/17/weight.guidelines/) which moved nearly 30 million Americans into the "overweight" category. If you check out the wikipedia article on BMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index#International_variations) it shows how internationally, the BMI categories are different around the world. You might be "healthy" in one country and "overweight" or even "obese" in another.

According to the "old" guidelines, my current BMI of 26.9 would be healthy. 13 years later I'm considered "overweight."

When I was 200 pounds—nearly into the obese class II category—I always got a clean bill of health. I exercised frequently and ate healthy foods (although too much). I was one of those obese folks that was better off than sedentary fast-food eating thin folks.

I really don't know if I'll be better off losing weight. I'll be completely honest that I don't know why I even started in the first place; I just began experimenting with my diet. I was happy before and I'm certainly happy now, but I agree with you in that we shouldn't have to be thin to gain self-worth

ennay
09-25-2011, 03:53 PM
Medical professionals do not use BMI as a judge of healthy or unhealthy. They use it as an easy preliminary screening tool, potentially indicating a need for additional measures.

runningfromfat
09-25-2011, 03:57 PM
That's not true, but you have to understand the limits, strengths and weaknesses of research to be able to evaluate the research. Or you have to trust the authors to provide it for you, but that's tricky too, because you have to rely on the author's reputation, which you have to research to determine (best-selling does not mean reputable or respected in the field).

This, and pretty much everything else kaplods said.

If you want to accept this research then you HAVE TO understand it's limit. I do scientific research for a living (although absolutely nothing related to health and nutrition). However, the first thing you need to do as a scientist is be upfront (both to yourself and others that read your papers) about what assumptions you make and the limitations of your work. This is essential so that others can truly understand what your data means.

It doesn't mean that these studies are necessarily worthless but clearly more research needs to be done, taking into account many of the things I mentioned in my previous post.

On the topic of God.... I'm not really sure how this applies? I'm assuming you're a Christian because of the Bible verses and the only verse I only know about your body is:

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).


I take that to mean that we need to take care of ourselves. For me that meant getting past emotional eating, exercising and watching what I eat! My previous habits that got me to an obese BMI were not treating my body well at all. Now, I agree that unhealthy dieting methods are just as bad. Nobody's going to say that it's OK to get to a healthy BMI by starving yourself and throwing up.

But as a general rule that the obese and overweight have more willpower? :?: I just don't get it. I didn't have any willpower at that point. Now, if you have someone who truly is happy at a higher weight, doesn't have bad habits, is exercising, and eating well. Well, good for them! That wasn't me, that wasn't my DH, and honestly? That's not anybody in my family (I have a large number of obese/overweight individuals in my family...). However, my thin friends? Well, they exercise, eat well, and appear to be happy.

Certainly, yo-yo dieting is NOT the healthiest thing for a person and there are people in the diet industry that take advantage of people. I don't have a really good solution for that but ignoring a connection between weight and health entirely (or better put body fat) is not the right answer either. Unfortunately, when it comes to healthy and weight loss, it's SUCH and individual thing that it's hard for researchers to perform meaningful studies and interpret them accurately.

free1
09-25-2011, 04:00 PM
As a Christian and an overweight woman, I think the topic is quite interesting. I would agree that the optimum BMI index is a false standard based on a numeric estimation of what people believe will keep a body at its optimal health. I agree those numbers are unreasonably low and I think standard research has recognized the numbers are skewed and do not account for various factors.

I just wanted to make a comment about the people who have been referenced as "naturally thin." While many of them have never dieted, I also have noticed that they do not have many of the negative habits that obese people have. In other words, while there are naturally thin people, even naturally thin people have to make smart choices. More calories, less movement/exercise will result in weight gain for the overwhelming majority of the population.

For example, I've noticed that thinner people choose smaller portion sizes. I went to Subway with a "naturally thin" person and I ordered a foot long (with cheese), chips (regular) and a regular soda. My naturally thin friend ordered a six inch, a diet soda and ate baked lays. Again, this is someone who doesn't diet.

I have noticed a list of behaviors that I have that most naturally thin people don't (and I think this helps contribute to their natural frame). I could write forever about things like: 1) stoppin when their body says its full (as opposed to me who can eat until I'm almost sick), 2) choosing healthier options, 3) smaller portion sizes (etc.).

I know this is a bit off topic but I just thought I'd add my two cents on the naturally thin issue (and that's really what it's worth) :)

kaplods
09-25-2011, 04:39 PM
There has been numerous studies and research that proves (Kaplods agrees with me on this) that those that are considered to me in the "Overweight" category (according to the BMI) are the healthiest. They live longer and have the least disease!



No, I don't really agree with you on this. I agreed that SOME research suggests that being "slightly overweight" has health advantages (which advantages depends on the study). But there is OTHER research that suggests the opposite (and which disadvantages were found also depends on the study).

Also, the studies aren't really clear on the reasons the slightly overweight may have an advantage - and it isn't necessarily the weight itself.

For example, if you're quite athletic, you are probably going to be slightly overweight - or even obese by BMI standards.

Most of the research that I've encountered that has found health advantages to being slightly overweight, used BMI. And just as an example, quite athletic individuals are going to have BMI's in the overweight and even obese categories.

BMI can tell you if you're over the average weight, but it can't tell you if you have more fat or more muscle than normal - just that your weight is higher.

And while it's normal to gain weight as a person gets older, it's also normal to become more sedentary - and there's a great deal of evidence that becoming more sedentary has negative health consequences.

I think it's just as wrong to attribute immorality to being overweight, as it is to attribute immorality to being ANY weight.

I think that we can only evaluate healthfulness by our own personal bodies. If we're going to the doctor and getting routine blood testing, our health indicators (blood pressure, blood tests for blood sugar, lipid profiles, CRP, mineral levels...) are improving as we lose weight, then that's a pretty good indicator that losing weight is doing something good for us.

As long as the indicators are improving, and as long as the way we feel is improving, that's an indication that we're moving in the right direction.

But it all has to be taken into context. Just because being a slightly above average weight is healthy for one person, or even assuming it's healthy for most people, doesn't mean it's healthy for all people, or most importantly whether it's healthy for you.

We have to use the evidence that we have available to us. How we feel, the results of our checkups, and the knowledge we gain from the research and other sources of information.

Issues such as heart disease, arthritis, high blood pressure, thyroid issues, diabetes and other issues - can all change the equation. They can make being thinner more necessary for than for someone without the issues. Or they can make it harder to lose weight, so we may have to be more patient with ourselves.

We may need to keep a closer eye on what we eat, how we exercise, and how much attention we pay to our diet, exercise, and health in general.

I don't think God expects us all to be the same size, or to have the same level of health or fitness. I also think God gives us a lot of leeway in how we manage our lives. I think that's what free will is all about. Using the resources God has given us, to do the best we can.

I don't believe calorie counting brings us closer to God, nor do I believe it seperates us from Him, unless we choose to allow it to. It's like balancing a checkbook - it's just part of life, for some of us. It's possible to get obsessed, and that can create a problem not just with our relationship with God, but with our relationship with other people and with ourselves.

I don't even think vanity seperates us from God, unless we allow it to. Sometimes I look in the mirror and think I look great, sometimes I dress to look as nice as I can, and I don't think God is disappointed in me for that, and I don't think I'm making God less of a priority by wanting to look nice.

I do agree that we have to take morality out of the weight equation as much as possible, because when we feel guilty and obsessing over what we're eating, or for what we're not eating, or for wanting to lose weight, or for not wanting to lose weight - or for being too thin, or for not being thin enough, all those obsessive thoughts are what fracture our relationships - with ourselves, with each other, and with God.

I understand that gluttony is considered a sin, and there were times in my life that food was more important than myself, my friends, my family, and God. But dieting also has.

This time around, I'm making myself a priority. I always thought that was selfish, but I've found that the more I take care of myself, the more open I am to God's influences, and the more time I have to help others. I didn't love myself enough to feel I was worth it, and God does expect me to love myself (just not to the exclusion of others).

I've also taken morality out of the equation. I don't feel bad when I eat when I'm stressed. I know it's a natural reaction. I want to live longer, so I have to lose weight - but I don't have to feel bad or guilty for my weight - even if I were to become fatter than my highest weight. God loved me at 400 lbs, and he will love me even if gained 400 lbs or if I became anorexic and weighed 60 lbs.

God wants what's best for me, and I want that too - so I have to work at weight loss. How and even whether I do that work, however doesn't make me a failure (or a success) as a Christian.

I think that we have to learn how to incorporate self-care into our lives, and realize that what that self-care looks like can be very different for different individuals.

Kelli
09-25-2011, 07:32 PM
I just wanted to make a comment about the people who have been referenced as "naturally thin." While many of them have never dieted, I also have noticed that they do not have many of the negative habits that obese people have. In other words, while there are naturally thin people, even naturally thin people have to make smart choices. More calories, less movement/exercise will result in weight gain for the overwhelming majority of the population.

For example, I've noticed that thinner people choose smaller portion sizes. I went to Subway with a "naturally thin" person and I ordered a foot long (with cheese), chips (regular) and a regular soda. My naturally thin friend ordered a six inch, a diet soda and ate baked lays. Again, this is someone who doesn't diet.

I have noticed a list of behaviors that I have that most naturally thin people don't (and I think this helps contribute to their natural frame). I could write forever about things like: 1) stoppin when their body says its full (as opposed to me who can eat until I'm almost sick), 2) choosing healthier options, 3) smaller portion sizes (etc.).

I know this is a bit off topic but I just thought I'd add my two cents on the naturally thin issue (and that's really what it's worth)

This is what I was saying when I talked about interviewing those who were "Naturally thin" I interviewed those who I observed to have none of the markers for anorexia, and most were non smokers. I asked them what diets they have tried, and ALL of them told me that they were not dieters. They may have tried one or two, but did not make it a lifestyle.

I concluded that when you don't limit a certain type of food, you don't crave it. i.e. if I tell you that you can't have water for 8 hours, the first thing you want is a big glass of water! Same thing happens with me, if I tell myself I can't have any chocolate or candy, that's what I want. The Bible even speaks of this being part of our nature.

Romans 7: 8-12 (The Message) Don't you remember how it was? I do, perfectly well. The law code started out as an excellent piece of work. What happened, though, was that sin found a way to pervert the command into a temptation, making a piece of "forbidden fruit" out of it. The law code, instead of being used to guide me, was used to seduce me. WITHOUT ALL THE PARAPHERNALIA OF THE LAW CODE, SIN LOOKED PRETTY DULL AND LIFELESS, and I went along without paying much attention to it.

For me, I seriously think that all my dieting over the years is what CAUSED my eating disorder. If you are a Christian pray about it. I am not saying that being extremely overweight is healthy! But as for me being 5'7" and weighing 180 is Healthy! Especially if I am exercising, (Exercise profits a little 1 Tim 4:8) eating when I am hungry and stopping when I am satisfied. It's easy to stop because I know that I will be able to eat it again.

Do the research for yourself. Don't just take the World's or my word for it. The New Testament has plenty of versus that say worrying about your food is and being over occupied with diet restrictions are wrong.

runningfromfat
09-25-2011, 07:48 PM
I concluded that when you don't limit a certain type of food, you don't crave it. i.e. if I tell you that you can't have water for 8 hours, the first thing you want is a big glass of water! Same thing happens with me, if I tell myself I can't have any chocolate or candy, that's what I want. The Bible even speaks of this being part of our nature.

This REALLY depends on the person. I consider myself something akin to a recovering sugar addict and that does not ring true for me at all. I basically treated it like an alcoholic would (and cut it out of my life completely for about 6 months). I now allow myself to have one serving size/week but I cannot handle having it in the house. I absolutely needed that detox period and telling myself I didn't need to limit myself would've be disastrous.

Like I've said before you just can't make blanket statements about such things because it really depends on the individual. I'm glad that you've found what works for you but that might not ring true for others.




For me, I seriously think that all my dieting over the years is what CAUSED my eating disorder. If you are a Christian pray about it. I am not saying that being extremely overweight is healthy! But as for me being 5'7" and weighing 180 is Healthy! Especially if I am exercising, (Exercise profits a little 1 Tim 4:8) eating when I am hungry and stopping when I am satisfied. It's easy to stop because I know that I will be able to eat it again.

Do the research for yourself. Don't just take the World's or my word for it. The New Testament has plenty of versus that say worrying about your food is and being over occupied with diet restrictions are wrong.

Again, this is what I said before. If you are happy and healthy at being "overweight" by your BMI, there is nothing wrong with that! However, medical professionals need to have some sort of guidelines to look at when it comes to weight & health. Unfortunately, testing body fat for every patient would require a lot of money (you'd have to retrain ALL doctors, provide them with equipment, educate the population as a whole, and run a lot of new studies). So we're left with the BMI charts in all their glory. :p I'm sure the researchers in this field realize how flawed they are but are doing the best they can with what they have.

Like kaplods said, I absolutely don't think God cares in the slightest about your weight unless it's in someway hindering how you live the rest of your life (like I mentioned with my emotional eating). If you feel you can live your life to your fullest where you're at and you feel like you're even closer to God there, great! You don't need to apologize for stopping with dieting if that's where you feel the best at. ;)

However, I would caution you about making blanket statements about BMI and health. It's way too complicated of an issue.

kaplods
09-25-2011, 09:30 PM
I've also worked and talked with, and observed naturally thin people and overweight people's habits around food, and I've concluded that there really aren't always clear distinctions.

I've known "naturally thin" folks who were couch potatoes and ate huge amounts of highly caloric and nutritionally empty junk food.

I've known extremely obese folks who didn't eat more than their thin peers either in volume or calories and who were extremely active and made healthy food choices.

Most people of all sizes fall somewhere between those extremes.

Researchers have found and even identified genes that contribute to obesity, which doesn't mean that we're programmed to be fat, but those of us with such genes may find it impossible to think and act like a thin person (especially since we wouldn't know which thin people to emulate).

Unhealthy habits are widespread in our society, among thin, fat, and average weight people. I think we need to stop worrying about weight, and focus on healthy habits that will improve our health regardless of our weight.

Getting enough rest

Eating healthy, unprocessed foods (which can be very difficult when we lack time or money)

Limiting processed and highly caloric foods (which can be difficult when our culture puts the most value, on the unhealthiest foods. We tend to think of healthy foods as boring and bland, and believe that celebration foods have to contain outragious amounts of sugar, refined carbs, salt, and fat.

Making time for healthy social relationships

Learning to de-stress

Being active socially and physically - we encourage overweight folks to isolate themselves, and especially to avoid physical activity in public. We're taught to be so ashamed of our bodies, that we don't want anyone to see them - even when we're covered head to toe (and you can't really find very many head-to-toe swimming suits, except in very conservative Islamic, Christian, and Jewish countries). A modest and attractive swimming suit is almost an oxymoron (I'm trying to find a swimming suit to replace the one I've shrunk out of, and anything that looks nice, I apparently can't afford).


I think we make too much of weight, and not enough about healthy habits. We focus too much on the destination, and not enough on the journey.

Our society values thin-ness at all costs. And as a result, women risk, undermine and sabotage their healths trying to get to the destination by the unhealthiest means.

I remember in college being shocked by the results of a research survey of college women, that found the number of women who said they would abort a child destined to be fat was greater than the number who would choose to abort a child destined to be mentally handicapped.

I was horrified that anyone would want to do either, but as an adopted, morbidly obese child in a family in which no one else experienced childhood or even young adult weight problems. And for the adults who had weight problems they didn't appear until middle age (for some of the women) or retirement (for some of the men).

My parents raised 4 kids, 2 adopted, and 2 biological. My brother and I (not biologically related) had weight issues different than my parents (my brother underweight throughout childhood and me obese - a stranger once scolded my mother for starving my brother and overfeeding me). My sisters (the bio-kids) follow our parents pattern. One like my father (at least until retirement, which my sister hasn't yet reached) has never had a weight issue, and one began gaining in her late 20's - just like Mom.


Because of the pattern, and because of the research I've read, I believe that obesity is a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Our genes aren't changeing, but the way we feed and raise children has. We're eating (nad feeding our kids) a diet much higher in fat, salt, sugar, and processed carbs, and lower in fiber. And we're moving less (and encouraging our children to move less - or at least not encouraging them to move more).

And worst of all, we discourage activity for the children and adults who need it most. There's such a social stigma against obese folks exercising or even being normally active, that fear of shaming ourselves prevents many of us from swimming or joining a dance class, or whatever out of fear of being the fattest person in the class (and why exactly is that such a social crime?)

We've created a world in which being overweight and unhealthy (or thin and unhealthy) is becoming the norm, because we're eating more (especially more crap) and moving less.

The unhealthy thin people may actually be at the bigger disadvantage, because they may be assuming they're healthy because they look ok in the mirror.

free1
09-26-2011, 05:45 PM
I wanted to comment on the idea that if you limit something you crave it. I grew up in a Christian home where I was never told that a product was completely off limits and I craved unhealthy foods anyway.

I think the problem has so many facets that it would be a mistake to pin it down to just one thing. A huge part of the problem is making junk foods so appealing, increasing portion sizes, including additives that increase cravings and encouraging a "if it feels good do it" society.

I do believe the media/scientific reasearch has fostered an unhealthy body image FOR WOMEN primarily. However, I think the suggestion that the more "overweight" you are, the healthier you might be is just as dangerous.

I could think of so many other factors that may effect the "healthier" determination. In other words, could it be that the ones considered "healthier" have another common denominator that may effect their assessment?

KAPLODS....I agree with so much of what you said.

kaplods
09-26-2011, 06:36 PM
I also disagree that limiting or forbidding something causes a person to crave it.

If we all craved the forbidden, we'd all be having sex with our siblings, murdering our children, and would be using heroine and methamphetemines (and would invent worse).

Social taboos (forbidden behaviors) are so ingrained we don't even realize that they're forbidden. Most people don't even think of doing the "very forbidden" things in their culture, because they're so ingrained that we don't even think of doing such things.

If junk food were that forbidden, we wouldn't even think of eating it. But it's not "that" forbidden.

Instead, we're all taught to believe in "moderation" which actually may be a myth.

We're taught to think that if we don't succeed in acheiving moderation, it's because there's something defective within us (and maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. I suspect there isn't).

We're also taught to judge moderation by it's effects. If you weigh 115 lbs and seem to be healthy and are eating two pounds of sugar a day - you're encouraged to believe that 2 lbs of sugar for you is moderation. Only if you gtet fat or sick is your moderation questioned.


For years, I bought into the "forbidden cravings" theory of junk food until I tried at forbidding nothing. I still ate crap, so I decided that I was "broken" as a result of the forbidden cravings (believing that I couldn't "get over" feeling the foods were forbidden. That if my parents had never limited the junk, I wouldn't be interested in it so much).

I was wrong.

I think it's our warped view of moderation, more than "forbidden fruit" that accounts for overeating junk. We're taught to be as hedonistic as we can be, without crossing the "forbidden" lines, but "forbidden" is getting fuzzier.

But that's only one small component. The foods we're eating have physically addictive properties, so limiting them may have no effect at all on overeating (or less than we have popularly assumed).

There was an experiment that was often quoted in Psychology and biology classes in college that found that when allowed to choose from a wide variety of foods, and allowed to eat when they wanted, toddlers chose a balanced diet (they might eat a stick of butter one day, but over the long haul, the diet was balanced).

That was used as rationale to let children eat whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted.

One huge flaw in that study. Junk foods weren't included in the mix. When allowed to choose from healthy foods, the toddlers choices were heathly.

A releatively recent study found this is NOT true when foods high in sugar, salt, and fat (especially the combination of all three), children will overeat those foods.

The book "The End of Overeating" by David Kessler changed the way I looked at these foods, and made me realize that "forbidden" probably had almost nothing to do with why I was overweight. The book, and the research Kessler cites suggests that the fat/sugar/salt combination is physiologically difficult to limit. Thin folks, fat folks, perfect-body folks, and even lab rats and polar bears will overeat these foods.

(In Alaska, the wild polar bears are becoming obese and ill from eating in human dumps. They've learned to prefer the dumpsters, because it's less work and the fat content in our garbage is so delicious to them. Mayonaise jars are a particularl favorite).

There are no "simple" solutions to obesity. You can pray for God to solve it for you, but as with all prayers to be delivered from any illness, behavior problem or even sin, sometimes God doesn't. And we humans can't know why. Maybe it's our weakness, maybe it's just that while God answers all prayers, sometimes the answer is "No."

I do not believe in a God who would withhold healing because a person's faith isn't strong enough. Locally, we had parents whose daughter died from complicationso t type II diabetes, because the parents believed that their daughter's illness would be cured by prayer. The daughter wastede away, getting thinner and thinner until she went into diabetic coma and died, because she was not taken to the hospital.

I am not questioning those parents' faith, but I do question their wisdom. Surely one of the ays in which God helps us, is by giving us the opportunity for knowledge and wisdom we can use to help one another.

My appreciation for scientific in research and modern medicine, doesn't conflict with my belief in God. I believe that science makes sense because God created a world his children could understand. Sure gravity could work randomly, if God wanted it so - but obviously he doesn't. Surely God could have saved that child, but allowing humans free will sometimes means teaching us lessons we don't want to learn, such as learning to rely on other human beings, because as much as God wants us to love HIM, he also wants us to love and help each other.

And I whole-heartedly believe that God works through 3FC, and every institution in which humans are trying to make the world a better place for each other, because I think that's one of the reasons we're here - to help each other, and there's amazing God-given power in that.

EZMONEY
09-26-2011, 08:07 PM
First let me say I am enjoying the passion here on both sides of this BMI plate! So many ways we look at things and how we value the information :)

I think there is some truth in the "want what we can't have" as far as it concerns food....it is rare that I eat breakfast, usually at work we eat just once and that is at 10....but boy oh boy have the doctor tell me I can't eat from midnight until 10am for blood work or surgery and I wake up STARVING!! :hun:

God creates us all different doesn't He? :)

I don't suppose that we will ever be able to explain all the :sssh: secrets to how much of what, when, where and why of what we should eat and what we should weigh....so many theories and facts out there...

very :?: confusing isn't it? :yes:

Yes it's true :devil: satan is out there attacking in big and small ways...Christians are well aware of that...when we "think" of him as far as attacking us in our efforts and information provided...we allow him way too much credit.....

why credit :devil: satan for anything?

If we keep our :val1: hearts and :book2: minds focused on Christ, then :devil: satan has no power...none...zippo...over us.

We ask God to help us lose weight, we ask God for information, we ask God to bless us in our efforts....

we ask why things :tantrum: aren't working....

maybe we are asking the wrong question....

God has already told us we are blessed in His WORD. He has already done EVERYTHING we need for us in the gift of His Son :val1:

Maybe we should focus a little less on research, facts and numbers on the scale. Maybe we should we ask God to continue to lead and guide us to a healthier life, if it is His will, so we can be stronger vessels with which to share the Good News....maybe by taking more time for Him and less on our own efforts to succeed on our weight loss things will come together for us a little bit better...:shrug:

kaplods
09-27-2011, 01:18 PM
I do believe the media/scientific reasearch has fostered an unhealthy body image FOR WOMEN primarily. However, I think the suggestion that the more "overweight" you are, the healthier you might be is just as dangerous.

That's not exactly what OP said. Nor is it what the research she's referring to suggests.

As much as I've disagreed with OP on a few points, she raises a very important point as to whether the culturally accepted ideals for weight are based on health or aesthetics.

It's a valid point, because trying to get to the cultural ideal of beauty, may never be possible, for many of us. Because we've tied the cultural ideal weight in our mind to "health" as well as beauty, we may be struggling to reach an unhealthy weight because we may not recognize our own healthy weight when we experience it.

Or we may acheive the ideal, and fight to keep it, despite evidence that it's not our healthiest weight.

If we can take the morality and even the beauty element out of weight loss, if we can take out the "perfection-seeking" aspect (especially when perfection is so illusive), I think more people would have more success.

We treat weight loss as if it's a matter of perfection or nothing. When we feel like we can't meet the perfection standard, we give up entirely thinking "it's useless, I'll always be fat."

If the focus was on our mental and physical health and not a perfect number we have in mind, and instead we judged our diet, exercise, lifestyle, and our weight by how we felt emotionally and physically and by our health indicators (meaning that even if we feel good, we see a doctor once or twice a year or more if we have health issues), I think the success rates for weight loss would be higher.

Instead, most often we have this weirdly arbitrary number in mind. A number that isn't necessarily based in any fact at all.

Thighs Be Gone
09-27-2011, 01:36 PM
I have PROOF that I am healthier at my lower weight. I had blood work done. I have a hard time believing I am healthier with higher blood pressure and LDL. I also have a hard time believing I am healthier when my legs ache (due to extra weight) when I get out of bed in the morning. Even if stats could prove it, I would rather feel great for a shorter amount of time than to have ever remained obese.

moonkissed
09-27-2011, 02:13 PM
This is a really interested thread. I think it can be difficult to get the entire picture when it comes to health and fitness because everyone is very different and there are so many factors that come into play.

There are MANY studies that have proven that women who weigh in the first category "Normal" are less healthy and die younger, than those in the "overweight" category.

I also think all types of research on it are difficult to take for their full worth. I mean how are we judging healthy? If we are considering deaths between skinnier vs overweight people I think we would need to take into consideration how they all died. I mean if one person gets hit by a car vs one having a heart attack that is a big difference lol

I read this link on the most common deaths:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/womens-health/WO00014

It says heart disease and some prevention including are smoking and stress and alcohol. You can be skinny eat perfectly and be fit and then smoke a pack a day, be a lush and completely stressed out. There are just alot of pieces to the puzzle is all I guess.

Both my grandmothers passed away. One was very skinny & in great health her entire life. Very active & ate well. She died of lung cancer even though she didn't smoke. My other grandmother lived longer she was very overweight smoked her entire life, had cancer, was diabetic, and was on oxygen and could barely walk. While my first grandmother had a great happy active life up until she passed my other grandmother was miserable in and out of hospitals and in pain for decades.


AAARRRGG! I feel like I have wasted so many years trying to fit into the "Ideal weight" When I am the ideal HEALTHY weight!!! Not Hollywood ideal! AND.. Of course the government and powers that be (Pharisees) are in their Pharmaceuticals and the Weight loss industry pockets so they jump on the bandwagon, with no thought for the safety of billions of people they are supposed to protect!

I do agree that going for an ideal that someone else sets is not a good idea. But I do not think that means going to opposite either. there is nothing wrong with being skinny or wanting to be skinny or fit or into the ideal range. It is just that we each need to evaluate ourselves and decide what OUR OWN ideal is that fits just us.

I concluded that when you don't limit a certain type of food, you don't crave it. i.e. if I tell you that you can't have water for 8 hours, the first thing you want is a big glass of water! Same thing happens with me, if I tell myself I can't have any chocolate or candy, that's what I want. The Bible even speaks of this being part of our nature.

I think we are all different and that doesn't work for all of us. There were weeks that went by that all I drank was pop and could have cared less about any water lol. I could also be quite content eating nothing but pasta and pizza and still crave it every day lol


I think in the end being healthy isn't about weight or diets. I don't consider my path a diet but a new brandnew healthy lifestyle. Making real change of habits (I hope lol). That is my focus and goal. I want to be fit and really healthy. But I also want a sexy rocking body :carrot:

I am not a christian (to each their own :hug: ) But I think no matter what spiritual path you have you should ofcourse match your ideals with how you live your life and within all your goals. And using it to find inner strength, wisdom, guidance is great.

I am a pagan and I believe my body is my temple and sacred and beautiful. And that I should be conscious of what I put in it and how I treat it. yet I lived my life mistreating it and poisoning myself basically. So definitely finding this new path and trying to become healthier has given me a new outlook through my spiritual path and it often helps me find guidance when things are a struggle. Though my path I believe highly in personal responsibilities. I make my own choices and when I screw up its only on me lol but hopefully I can learn from it and get better and stronger.

I do love the prayer though that says:
grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

What I eat, if I get up and exercise my weight goals all are things I can control and change. I might not be able to control going to a family outing and everyone serving yummy horrible unhealthy food but I can control how much I eat and what options I choose kindof thing.

CloudySky
10-19-2011, 01:52 AM
Some people have drug this post annoyingly off topic and nitpicked every comment made to death, but it's very interesting nonetheless. Kelli, I get exactly what you are saying. I have had these aha moments as well and I also believe that our government has in MANY ways led us to unhealthy lifestyles for the sake of putting money in someone's pocket. It goes way beyond just this BMI thing. You don't have to waste your life learning how to read and analyze research properly to get to the truth. It is not that convoluted as some may suggest. In fact, the truth is usually nested right inside a little bit of common sense. Convincing others is where the research comes in handy. I would love to see women empowered to stop trying to reach those unreasonably low BMI's, weights, and sizes, and just stop where they feel healthy.

WannaBeLoserAgain
10-19-2011, 08:56 AM
I had the Awww...Haaaaa moment in the grocery story the other day. I looked around at all the foods around me. Lots of fast convenient foods (high calorie, snacking foods) every where! Sodas! Look around, you will be shocked!

There are some isles in the grocery store that I do not even go down.

No wonder we are over weight! Oh! And, these foods are cheap also! Yea! I want to eat healthy.

Kelli
11-02-2011, 09:57 PM
Some people have drug this post annoyingly off topic and nitpicked every comment made to death, but it's very interesting nonetheless. Kelli, I get exactly what you are saying.

Thank you CloudySky, thank you!!! This is why I left this post, people were misquoting me left and right, and no matter how I said it, I just could not get across that YES, "being morbidly obese is unhealthy, (I said unhealthy not unbeautiful or unwomanly!) but being in the "overweight" BMI (25–29.9) category, is healthy (people in this category live longer and are protected from many diseases) than those who are in the so called "Normal" BMI category (18.5–24.9).

Being underweight is just as unhealthy as being morbidly obese. The media, pharmaceuticals, and diet industry all would have me believe that If I chart life spans of those BMI classifications, I would have an arrow starting with those who are 5 to 20 pounds underweight, as having the longest life span, and those who are obese having the shortest. That is not correct, The chart would look more like an upside down "U" with those who are in the "Overweight" BMI 25–29.9 being the ones with the longest life spans.

Those who are as little as 5 pounds underweight are in just as much danger as those who are morbidly obese of dying from weight related reasons.

To sum it up, that would mean that at 5"7" my ideal (healthiest) weight will be between 160-191 Pounds.

For years I could not understand why I had such a hard time losing weight. I was praying constantly and As far as running to God with my weakness, I felt like I was doing everything right! I had studied many years to try to find the answer to why I couldn't get to the "normal" weight. I finally realize that God did answer my prayers to be healthy. I kept telling Him "I just want to be healthy!"

I don't need to listen to the pharisees of this age that have their dietary laws, and commerce in my temple. They have sold me enough pigeons and what they consider "clean" sacrifices (Matt 21:12)... I am done with that. I will go to my Lord instead and have Him clean my temple the way He wants it cleaned.

Also... I would sure appreciate it if when somebody says I (or anyone else) said something that they would copy and paste the quote and put the quotation marks around it Like this

Also if someone says that I said something and it doesn't have a direct quote around it, I would sure appreciate it if you who are reading the quote wouldn't believe that I said it.

We should be careful about that... I wonder if that might be called "Bearing false witness??? LOL, No I'm sure it was just a mistake.

Love Kelli

LovelyLeah
11-21-2011, 01:06 AM
I just want to put out there that correlations are the weakest form of all research types and should not be assumed to be fact. Correlations are often what makes the base for a hypothesis that would later be researched in full but is not able to stand on its own. There are often many, many different variables that are at play and to pick one variable, in this case BMI, and state that that is the reason why some are healthier than others is pure ignorance. Even well conducted and thorough research can be misrepresented.

And as a Christian, I must say that, spiritually, red flags are popping up for me with Scripture being taken out of context. May I just warn against using Scripture to win a point, it loses its purity.

Kelli
11-22-2011, 08:21 AM
Thank you Linda, but can I ask that you be more specific? I really, really, don't want to take scripture out of context, and I promise I will go to God about it.

I have had a couple of people tell me that I have taken Scripture out of context and this worries me so much, but I need specifics or I can't fix it. Please, I really am sincerely asking help from a sister. It is so important to me.

Love, Kelli

LovelyLeah
11-22-2011, 11:28 AM
It wasn't just you. I don't have much time to go back through the posts to find them all but the one that stood out to me (and I don't think it was you who posted it) was 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

I often hear this one misrepresented for legalistic purposes. The most common example I've heard this used is with tattoos or piercings but there are plenty of other uses I hear that are outside of the context.

The true context of this is sexual immorality.
12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[c]
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

It is easy to read clips and pieces of verse and associate it with something in our lives. Why do you think newspaper horoscopes are so popular? But what's more difficult is then to look at the full chapter or paragraph and see if it still works. That is why I believe so many Christians have gone astray. They don't like what the full context says so the pick and choose. I am incredibly guilty of this as well so please don't think I'm being hypocritical. I'm learning just like everyone else and I certainly sin often enough to be classified as human. What God has really been teaching me lately is to not bring Scripture into any argument or even discussion if my motives are wrong.

Actually I had posted something like this on facebook a couple nights ago because it was really on my heart. Keep in mind that this is off topic for here and I do realize that. I just thought since I had already brought it up I might as well post it.
I am guilty of what I'm about to rant about so I'm not trying to be a hypocrite. It really irks me when Christians use scripture to prove their point in an argument. I'm talking more in the way of tearing each other down, not building each other up because there is a major difference between the two. I feel like it goes from the pure Word of God to the word of man plagiarized from God and smeared with self-righteous pride. And again, I am guilty of this. I'm learning to read the full context of the Scripture before using it and not just relying on the context I've heard it used in sermons. I'm also trying to learn, which I think is the hardest part, to check my motives. More often than not my motives are all wrong and I think that may be the reason Christianity has a bad rep.

Kelli
11-23-2011, 12:27 PM
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