Momentum / Flex - Momentum plan dissed at WW meeting today




madamwu
08-24-2011, 12:08 PM
I was surpised that for the first time my WW leader talked negatively about the Momentum plan. The topic of the day was plateaus, and she had a list of different "types" of people, example, "free fruiters" who fill up on too much fruit. One of the types was "plan snobs" who felt they were too good to use Points Plus, that they were sticking with the Momentum Plan. "Points Plus is SO MUCH BETTER" ...."its like using still using a landline phone instead of a smart phone."
I was a little put-out by her analogy. I don't like fancy gadgets and have a very basic no camera, no texting, cell phone. I do not live on technology. I've been using computers since 1974 and honestly, I am sick of them.

Interestingly, she did say she had people who turned down the free weekly tracker pamphlet because the were on the old plan. It was sort of uncharacteristic for her to make the sort of snide comments she did for making this point. I wonder if WW has ordered their leaders to deliver propaganda actively discouraging members from using the old points plan.

Their latest book on vegetables was the first time I have ever encountered a WW recipe book that didn't give full nutritional values, just the Points Plus for the recipes, making it difficult to compute the points if you wanted. Seems a disservice to those who really might need the actual nutritional values, such as diabetics who need to know carb levels.

Anyone else have this in their meeting?


98DaysOfSummer
08-24-2011, 12:42 PM
Never forget that above all else, WW is a business (which is why they have no problem selling you their junky food products, even though they are in no way beneficial to your overall health) and business survive by convincing you need the newest of whatever they have to offer. It is no doubt in her weekly talking points to keep moving people to the new system. It's how they make money and making money is their job. Selling you the idea that WW cares about you and it's some kind of altruistic public service is just part of the genius of marketing.

I haven't been to a meeting in a while (moved, busy) but never forget, when you're making your choices, that their whole reason for existing is NOT to help you live a better life, but to separate you from your money. I'm not saying WW is a bad plan or that one WW plan is better than another (people lost weight on WW back in the 70s when they had to eat liver once a week, clearly all the plans "work" at getting the weight off) but they exist to sell to you and convince you that you need what they have. If they change it, then those people (the bulk of their customers) who will be on WW and lose/regain the same 20 pounds for ten or fifteen years (not a knock on WW dieters, just my experience in meetings is that most people have been in WW forever and have lost/regained over and over, myself included) will keep having to buy new things and that's the whole point.

kaplods
08-24-2011, 12:43 PM
This very issue, is one of the reasons I got disillusioned with Weight Watchers, and had to find something else.

I don't mean about this specific program, because the new WW plan is the only WW plan I have not followed since I joined WW for the first time in 1972, at 8 years old with my mother (at that time, 8 was the youngest age WW would accept and only with a doctor's note and with a parent also in the program).

I've seen this happens every time WW rolls out a new program. Some leaders will be more diplomatic, and will have a "don't ask, don't tell," policy - but they couldn't and wouldn't support or allow members to discuss the old plan during the meeting. Other leaders would bash the old plan, and try to sell members on how much better the new plan was - often implying that anyone following the old plan was doomed to failure (which seems rather ludicrous since leaders would also talk about all the success WW had from the beginning - so which is it - have WW plans been successful way to lose weight for decades, or is the only way to succeed the new way, and if so how can WW claim credit for helping people lose wieght before the new plan was implemented?

It does make sense from a business standpoint, and WW is a business. Just like when a software company updates software, they stop supporting the old version, because it makes business sense to do so. It's confusing and costly to train employees on a current and obsolete system - and obsolete does not mean the old program didn't work or will stop working for those who like it - but the company is going to do everything they can to convince you that the upgrade is necessary, and one way they do it is by withdrawing support of the old system.

I've seen it happen over and over again in WW, and while I've tried all of WW plans (except the newest, current point system), my favorite plans were the ones that preceded points. I loved the exchange systems, because they were so easy to use, and the exchanges were the same as those used by all other exchange plans (all of which are based on the exchange plan created by the American Diabetes Association and the American Dietetics Association in the 1950's).

It was awesome, because all exchange plans were (and most still are) the same, so you could use any exchange plan cookbook, virtually interchangeably. I suspect that may have been one of the reasons for the switch, that as a business it made more sense to create a plan that WW could own and control and prevent others from using.

When WW first went to points from exchanges, their cookbooks also stopped listing nutritional information, and just listed the points. It drove me crazy, because I had learned how to calculate exchanges from a nutrition label within a few minutes. To translate the new recipes into exchanges I had to look up every ingredient and then do the math.

When I found TOPS (taking off pounds sensibly), I was relieved the non-profit club allowed members to follow any sensible diet plan they wished to (exchange plans as well as "obsolete" and current Weight Watchers programs are amongh the most popular).

It's too bad that WW doesn't at least offer dual support for a year or so, to help people transition, but some people don't want to transition, and they're left either in "don't ask, don't tell" no-man's-sland, doing it on their own, or finding a support group of other "old-planners" like themselves.


Lovely
08-24-2011, 04:20 PM
It's too bad that WW doesn't at least offer dual support for a year or so, to help people transition, but some people don't want to transition, and they're left either in "don't ask, don't tell" no-man's-sland, doing it on their own, or finding a support group of other "old-planners" like themselves.

This. I do wish they'd offer a year of transition or something like that.

Their plans work, obviously, or no one would lose weight on any of them. Back from the way beginning until the newest one today. They all work.

That being said, some of them are clearly going to work better for different people.

I'm sorry that your leader seemed to be bashing the old plan, maybe she personally didn't like the old plan as much as she does the Points Plus? Leaders are only human.

Plus it might be a corporate thing, they likely aren't allowed to support the old plan in any way in order to promote the Points Plus.

Hopefully this faux pas won't keep you from your meetings.

QuilterInVA
08-24-2011, 05:28 PM
Weight Watchers threw out the Momentum Plan so why are you going there if you don't do the plan. Sounds like you are throwing your money away. Would you pay for cell phone service if you only had a landline? PP is much better than Momentum so get off the dead horse.

QuilterInVA
08-24-2011, 05:30 PM
I have kept it off for nearly 40 years. The reason people gain is because they eat for the wrong reasons or too much and make poor choices. It's not WW fault. They sure haven't made money on me. Be careful of what you say because you could end up in court for bashing WW unfairly. You can say it doesn't work for you but you can't say some of the things I've seen here.

mamaemj
08-24-2011, 05:35 PM
WW is a business and no matter what type of business they are striving to promote new product and make money BUT I have been on WW several times and lost 78lbs on the old plan, although I am following the PointsPlus plan right now I don't think the others should be forgotten about...THEY WORK, plain and simple, and if people feel more comfortable on them then so be it, its their choice! They are still paying for the meetings, etc!

98DaysOfSummer
08-24-2011, 05:42 PM
I have kept it off for nearly 40 years. The reason people gain is because they eat for the wrong reasons or too much and make poor choices. It's not WW fault. They sure haven't made money on me. Be careful of what you say because you could end up in court for bashing WW unfairly. You can say it doesn't work for you but you can't say some of the things I've seen here.

I'm not sure who you're talking to or what horrible things you think have been said, but no one has made an accusations. WW is a business. Period.

I never said it was the fault of the program that people fail. Even WW has to acknowledge that most of it's members fail (true of any diet). That's what the whole *results no typical thing is about.

Pretty much ANY diet works if you stick to it (yes, yes, disclaimer about people with special circumstances or health issues).

kaplods
08-24-2011, 06:17 PM
No one here has said anything illegal. You can only get in legal or financial trouble for "bashing" a business if what you say is untrue AND the business can prove that they lost money because of your untrue statements. Even if a person lied outright, the company can only win a civil complaint against you, if they can prove that they lost revenue because of your lies.

No one here is telling lies, we're only sharing opinions, and WW, like any other business succeeds by listening to the opinions of customers and former customers. I have no illusions that WW is monitoring 3FC to hear what we say about the company, but it certainly wouldn't hurt their business to do so.

WW doesn't get to be a company of it's size and reputation without listening to the opinions and even complaints of customers and former customers.

I wouldn't be surprised if WW eventually does support more than one type of food plan. They stand to make a whole lot more money than they already do, if they would. They don't have to of course, but they can't be hurt by a few people discussing things about the business we wish were different. Legitimate companies welcome feedback, even criticism (even by former customers).

I've written to WW corporate several times in my life, to offer praise for things I liked, and suggestions and criticisms for things I didn't, and they were always very cordial about it. Not once was I threatened with a lawsuit for being an unsatisfied customer, and even when my criticisms were harsh, I was always thanked for them. That's a company I can respect, even if I don't agree with them on every product and service they offer.

For me, the accountability and support of the weekly meeting and weigh-in is far more important to my success than the food plan, so when WW was the only option for that support, I paid my weekly dues. I followed my own food plan, and couldn't discuss it with the group. I felt like a hypocrite, especially when I was praised in the group for weight loss "proving what the program can do," but that was the emotional price I had to pay to get the weekly support.

When I found TOPS (which allows you to follow any plan you wish, though they support an exchange plan in their manual which is an optional purchase), I didn't have to settle for a partial support system. I was able to follow my food plan and discuss it in my support group (and do so, at less than $7 per month).

That doesn't mean WW is a bad product, it just means that I consider TOPS a better and cheaper one (and there's nothing illegal or immoral about saying that).

Out of respect (and because I believe it's against the rules), I try not to criticise any diet plan in that plan's thread here on 3FC, and while I did make some mild criticisms of WW, I think I still succeeded in that (though some may think I'm splitting hairs).

This is the Momentum/Flex thread - and I have not criticised Momentum or Flex in this thread, because I think that would be inappropriate, but that doesn't mean holding back honest and potentially helpful feedback, even if it's not 100% positive. We all have to find what works, and if that means paying for and attending WW meetings, while following a modified version of the plan (or just going there for the weekly support and weigh-in), then that's what we should do. Our ultimate responsibility is to our success, however that is acheived.

Lovely
08-25-2011, 12:36 AM
WW has stopped supporting a lot of their old plans, but if the old plans are working for someone...and that someone enjoys the group atmosphere of the WW meeting, I do not see how they would be wasting their money.

It works for them. :shrug:

Heck, as an example: a person could, if they really wanted to, start using Atkins and going to Weight Watchers meetings at the same time. Now, they cannot expect that WW will ever endorse Atkins. Nor will they expect to be given specific advice if that person struggles with the Atkins plan, but they will have a room full of people who are trying to lose weight or maintain, and perhaps the user likes that atmosphere.

If it helps them lose weight, in their mind that's not wasting money.

Old plans are not necessarily bad plans. They're just old plans. At some point PP will be replaced with "the next level"... maybe something that doesn't include points in any way! Will it be better? Who knows? Because "better" is a very subjective thing.

124chicksinger
08-25-2011, 12:53 AM
I attended 2 of these plateau topic meetings this week. Sunday and today. Prior plans were not mentioned at the first. At today's the only mention was...make a stand. Pick one or the other or the other or the other-- just don't pick and choose from 2 or more and combine your own frankenstein version and be disappointed if/when said plan fails.

I totally get that if something is working for you, you don't want to mess with it. If you mess with it and get good results, you're converted. If the new plan doesn't work for you, your options are stick with the old on your own, or do same and continue to go to meetings where, plan-wise, you cannot expect to get "program" support. If you're lucky enough to have a leader who has been around a few years and is very knowledgeable, you'll be able to pick their brains for a while...but after some time has passed, even the most indulgent leader isn't going to assist. WWPP is, in the U.S., entering its 9th month and the company and its personnel want to move on. However, I didn't feel any disrespect for any prior plan, nor any current member who lost on a prior plan. I think your leader could have chosen her wording more carefully--I doubt she intended to insult anyone.

madamwu
08-25-2011, 10:59 AM
I didn't take it as an insult, just thought it was weird behavior on her part.

I think for me it is like kabolds said: "For me, the accountability and support of the weekly meeting and weigh-in is far more important to my success than the food plan, so when WW was the only option for that support, I paid my weekly dues. I followed my own food plan, and couldn't discuss it with the group. I felt like a hypocrite, especially when I was praised in the group for weight loss "proving what the program can do," but that was the emotional price I had to pay to get the weekly support."

I will check out TOPS, but right now the great leader, and the geographic convenience of the WW center nearby keeps me inclined to stay with WW. I might eventually go back to PP, but right now, using Momentum again is working better for me. Zero point fruit is not a great incentive to me; sometimes I feel like I'm the only one on the planet who doesn't like bananas....:shrug:

I will finish with the comment that I posted here to get feedback and support from other users of Momentum. Being told to go back to PointsPlus is not helpful, nor appreciated. I am not an idiot who is too stupid to make her own decisions. PointsPlus users have lots of places to post on 3Fatchicks, not to mention the official WW site. They shouldn't feel the need to come here and convince us of the errors of our ways...just sayin'

98DaysOfSummer
08-25-2011, 11:20 AM
I do wish they had more support for changing plans or at least the option to still do the old plan for a few months. I was doing fairly well on WW a few years ago and just hitting my stride when they had a plan change (another time I got pregnant, can't blame WW for that one!) and it was just like, UGH. I don't want to learn something NEW!

Munchy
08-25-2011, 11:30 AM
DISCLAIMER - I am someone who was on Momentum, and never on PointsPlus, but I have read through a lot of the welcoming material for PP.

It seems like if you eat a whole foods momentum diet (which is generally what I do), it's the same as PP. I haven't done out the math, but it doesn't seem like anything would change substantially.

I remember feeling odd at WW meetings because there was a lot of focus on new and improved junk food that was 1 point or 2 points, when I didn't feel like there was much nutritional value to those foods. Changing the actual point value of the junk so that it's less enticing (more points) makes members less likely to choose it.

Has anyone that did eat a whole foods diet on a previous plan figured out their point values on both just for comparison's sake?

madamwu
08-25-2011, 12:35 PM
I do wish they had more support for changing plans or at least the option to still do the old plan for a few months. I was doing fairly well on WW a few years ago and just hitting my stride when they had a plan change (another time I got pregnant, can't blame WW for that one!) and it was just like, UGH. I don't want to learn something NEW!

Exactly! I did WW ten years ago with points and again last year. I have a lot of points values memorized and was very comfortable with the system. I dislike electronic gadgets, and the buttons on the PP gadget were way too small. I am a small business owner trying to keep alive in this rotten economy, and it is stressful enough trying to lose weight without having to learn a new system. On PP I was fighting the same 3 pounds for 4 months. Its only when I switched back to Momentum did I start to lose again. I think there were just too many food points available to me and it threw off my habits and system. Maybe I sound like an old fogey, but I don't care!

Koshka
08-25-2011, 03:51 PM
DISCLAIMER - I am someone who was on Momentum, and never on PointsPlus, but I have read through a lot of the welcoming material for PP.

It seems like if you eat a whole foods momentum diet (which is generally what I do), it's the same as PP. I haven't done out the math, but it doesn't seem like anything would change substantially.


I think this is probably the case. For a few weeks after we switched from Momentum to PP I counted my points both ways. On Momentum I got 23 points and 29 on PP so on PP some foods had higher points, particularly higher carb foods. But generally if a day was within 23 points on Momentum then it would be within 29 points on PP. I didn't eat entirely whole foods but mostly whole foods (bread, etc.). I did find that foods with lots of refined carbs, including for example the WW bars and snack products, tended to be penalized in PP so I didn't eat those as much. I wasn't a huge eater of them before but did use them.

FWIW, I could lose weight on either program. For me, I found I lost weight faster using PP so after a few weeks I switched to it entirely. My sense is that many people who lose more on Momentum go overboard on fruit on PP and so it stalls their weight loss. MY husband is also doing WW and he is a big fruit eater so at first he lost more slowly on PP but he adjusted after awhile. I'm not a big fruit eater so I didn't have the same problem.

As far as WW switching programs or having multiple programs I think there are a couple of different issues. Back when WW was still an exchange program they had one exchange program for most people but also had a vegetarian program that was different. I think that was fine. Or even now you can do simply filling instead of counting points.

On the other hand if they feel their "main" program is outdated or isn't working well then they should change it. That is good business for them, of course, and is also good for their members.

I truly don't think they change their program just in order to make money (it may be a factor in little changes but not in the major program change like this year). I do think they offer WW foods to make money and I think they should change their snack foods especially to use whole grains and less sugar, etc.

The reality though is that there are lots of weight loss programs that will work for people. Some people do well on low carb (I'm following a fairly low carb diet and do count net carbs and still also count WW points). Other people might do better on an exchange program or just counting calories. Others may succeed more on Momentum. I understand why WW doesn't support it -- they feel it is outdated -- just as they don't support exchange programs any more (not so much those are scientifically outdated as I think they feel Points Plus is easier to stick to). But I think that everyone should do what works for them and helps them to lose weight.

kaplods
08-25-2011, 11:04 PM
I will check out TOPS, but right now the great leader, and the geographic convenience of the WW center nearby keeps me inclined to stay with WW.

I want to be clear that I don't think there's anything wrong with WW, especially if you can afford it. TOPS is an excellent option for those who can't afford WW, or don't want to follow the WW Plan (or accept the don't ask don't tell position you're placed in if you don't).

If my financial situation changes, I think I would rejoin WW - not because I don't like and even prefer my TOPS meetings, but while TOPS allows you to be a member of other weight loss clubs, you can't belong to more than one TOPS chapter at a time (even if another chapter lets you sit in on their meetings, you can't weigh in), so you can only weigh-in once per week.

That may seem like no big-deal, but I really think I would do better with a meeting and weigh-in twice per week. Maybe that makes me seem desperate and weak (especially since I'm here every day), but I really am like an addict. I would do a daily meeting and weigh-in if I could.

I would live in a dieter's half-way house if such a thing existed. I've always thought that it would be awesome to create and live in a healthy-lifestyle community modeled after retirement communities, with all the amenities conducive to a healthy lifestyle (with no age limits). There are retirement communities for all incomes, and healthy-lifestyle communities could be modeled after them. Your condo fees could go to things like fitness and nutrition instructors.

nlm1106
09-01-2011, 09:24 AM
QuilterInVA works for WW, she put it in another post. That's probably why she is so sensitive about negative comments.

I have to agree with what a lot of you are saying, all of the plans work if you use them properly. If you are more comfortable using an older model, do what works for you. Just because something is newer and maybe even better for the general population, it doesn't make it the best answer for each individual. Personally, I had trouble with Points Plus so I went back to Momentum. I have struggled to keep losing weight in general so I decided if I felt like I had more progress on Momentum (whether or not it is actually true or if Points Plus is faster/better), switching back was the best option for me. Half the battle with weight loss is mental and staying motivated. I have to do whatever I can to feel confident and continue.

canadianwoman
09-01-2011, 10:07 AM
my favorite plans were the ones that preceded points. I loved the exchange systems, because they were so easy to use, and the exchanges were the same as those used by all other exchange plans (all of which are based on the exchange plan created by the American Diabetes Association and the American Dietetics Association in the 1950's).

I know this is a thread about Weight Watchers but what you said above made me think of something.

I have been on an exchange plan since 1997 when I first began Richard Simmon's Deal A Meal plan. I loved it. I had a few sets of cards and I was able to customize my calorie level (the one RS suggested for me to loose weight) to the cards that *I* wanted, not the cards Richard laid out in his booklets.

Then he switched to the Foodmover and suddenly he was telling everyone that the DAL plan was obsolete and everyone had to rush out to buy his Foodmover. It was obvious to me then that he was simply saying this because he is first and foremost running a business and helping people lose weight comes second to that.

I have noticed that, in many many posts I have seen online.....that many people loved and miss the old Deal A Meal program. They even discuss it on Richard's very own facebook page, which is why I sent him a letter telling him he really out to update it and bring it back. IMO he would make a lot more money, under the guise of helping people to lose weight.

canadianwoman
09-01-2011, 10:09 AM
Would you pay for cell phone service if you only had a landline?

I have both. Variety is a wonderful thing. :) :D

canadianwoman
09-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Heck, as an example: a person could, if they really wanted to, start using Atkins and going to Weight Watchers meetings at the same time. Now, they cannot expect that WW will ever endorse Atkins. Nor will they expect to be given specific advice if that person struggles with the Atkins plan, but they will have a room full of people who are trying to lose weight or maintain, and perhaps the user likes that atmosphere.

If it helps them lose weight, in their mind that's not wasting money. .

It has been done. I was on a low carb forum back in the late nineties where a woman mentioned that she was using Atkins and going to WW meetings and even though she could not tell them she was using the Atkins plan she was getting praised for losing so many pounds at her weigh-ins.

She was using the WW meetings for her own emotional support and I suspect she was not (and is not) the only one.

Koshka
09-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Actually I think right now you could totally follow Atkins and follow Weight Watchers even in induction. You would get all your fruits and veggies from veggies and not fruit but that is fine with WW. I followed a modified induction program on Atkins (higher starting carbs and allowed nuts) and had no problem following WW at the same time.

dgjp8991
09-12-2011, 07:21 PM
I worked for ww for 7 yrs! Leader! For me it was helping others and getting paid to do it! I loved it! Then Boom! Had a member that had been coming faithly for over 5 yrs!~ I asked them to send her something for losing 100 pounds!! They had promised in the past they would! Long story short I ended up quitting! I attened a meeting and got my new program stuff! this week I put the new stuff away and got my old stuff out and IM lovin it!! I never looked at ww as a business but a tool!

Laurabelle5
09-16-2011, 09:04 AM
I think a lot depends on the people running your individual WW. I had lost 17 from October - December when they switched Jan 1, and tried to make PP work for about 3 weeks. Couldn't do it. Felt like a failure.

So I quit, and gained it all back (plus!).

When I really committed to doing this right, I realized that the old Momentum program was what I knew, what worked for me, etc. If you can make it liveable and easy -- it will be successful. Like the poster above who talked about calculating exchanges from a nutrition facts panel -- I can do the same thing with momentum points.

Just because they're a company doesn't make them bad. Just because they do weight loss programs doesn't make them good. Weight loss is SO individual -- that's why all these types of programs exist.

And thank god for Ebay. :) Old programs can still continue to circulate there.

samida
11-17-2011, 12:52 PM
Last night I pulled out all my 1-2-3 Success materials and it felt SO good - (this is the one that went up to 10G fiber on the side and had banking instead of flex points). I didn't abuse the fiber (like putting oat bran on ice cream to increase the fiber!) and I lost weight with the program.

I, too, did not like PP - but I'm willing to admit that part of it was psychological. I found that since the way I cook - with a lot of whole grains - resulted in HUGE point difference, and a dish that would be 3-5 points on an older points program, would now be up to 9 points! Even though you get more daily and weekly points, and fruit for free, I could never reconcile "spending" that many points on a healthy option. Therefore I started to eat with less variety in my meals and, I think, actually ate LESS healthy.

Anyway - I am thrilled :carrot: there is a Momentum/Flex active group here (even though I am on one still older!).

Samida

QuilterInVA
11-18-2011, 11:54 AM
Too much of anything thing is not a healthy option - fruits, veggies and whole grains included.

2SpareTires
11-18-2011, 12:32 PM
That's very true Quilter! Your weight loss is amazing.