Confused by the whole you can't build muscle and lose fat thing?
I'm a little confused by this. Is is true that OBESE people can't lose fat and build muscle at the same time?
I received what I thought was a very solid physical education (had "weight room" as a class and was assigned homework- it was graded) and I was taught that you couldn't build muscle and cut fat at the same time- the body mechanics just don't work- but I was watching the biggest loser (not something that I do often cause I get an overwhelming urge to binge wnv I do- go fig oh and the product placement is obnoxious to the point of revulsion) and one of the women who had muscle atrophy because of an accident was evaluated by the doctor and she seems to have achieved a body composition that would suggest that she did in fact build muscle and lose fat at the same time- or rather built muscle while presumably eating at a deficit.
SO are the rules different for obese people? Is that something we can do while we are still very heavy? Or Am I missing something?
Thanks for the entertaining the question.
Last edited by gmailjunkie; 03-23-2011 at 09:17 PM.
This is my understanding from undergraduate physical education independent study and undergraduate and graduate school human biology classes, and from subsequent reading -- is that losing fat and gaining muscle are two seperate processes, and they can be done at the same time (not only by obese people, but by anyone). However they are processes that aren't entirely independent, meaning one can affect or interfere with the other (doesn't mean they can't be done at the same time, but does mean that one can make the other more difficult).
That being said, just because it's possible, doesn't meant that going about it, is necessarily easy or intuitive.
Many people (probably even most) tend to lose fat AND muscle while losing weight. This is a tendency though, not a foregone conclusion. It may have more to do with how we tend to go about weight loss. For example, it's common to start with diet and no exercise. It's common to cut calories from all sources, including those from protein. Many of the popular ways to diet may make muscle gain more difficult during weight loss, but difficult doesn't mean impossible, and it doesn't mean there aren't ways to minimize the adverse interactions.
To lose fat AND gain muscle, my understanding is that you need to be cutting calories, but not protein. This doesn't mean that you have to follow a super high-protein, zero-carb diet, but it does suggest that you be careful of which calories you are cutting. If you want to build muscle while burning fat, you need to be careful not to shortchange yourself on protein.
How much protein do you need? Unfortunately even the experts disagree on how much protein you need to retain or build muscle during weight loss (or even if it's possible - but fewer and fewer of the experts are saying it's impossible because of evidence to the contrary). At any rate, there's no easy answer.
The old "common wisdom" was that muscle loss was inevitable with weight loss, and it was just something you had to "deal with" until you were able to do more weight building exercises. Or that you should focus on weight loss or muscle building, but not both because you'd be "confused" and demotivated by what you saw on the scale (for example if you were building muscle while losing fat, your weight loss might be slower, and you'd therefore be frustrated and demotivated - or that building muscle was going to interfere with weight loss/fat loss and vice versa).
Some experts used to tell obese people not to do resistance/weight exercise, because the muscle building would interfere with fat loss, or that fat loss would interfere with muscle building. Others say that obese people need to do resistance/weight exercises to prevent muscle loss.
Now there aren't as many "experts" telling obese and overweight people not to do weight-lifting/resistance exercises. While some are arguing that the weight lifting is needed to prevent muscle loss (but that muscle gain isn't likely), and some are arguing that the weight lifting is needed to build muscle, both agree that weight-bearing/weight lifting/ resistance exercises are good.
To that end, it doesn't matter whether your weight/resistance exercises are actually building muscle or just keeping you from losing muscle, as long as you're doing them.
That's my perspective on it, anyway. I'm convinced that the "no weight resistance for chubbies" is bad advice, whether I'm building muscle or just not losing it I'm ok with either.
Personally, I'm convinced I've done both, because when I started I couldn't even stand long enough to take a shower. I couldn't put away even a light wieght plastic bowl or a stack of paper plates if it meant lifting over my head.
The so-called "biology" behind that concept is because you need to create a calorie "deficit" to lose fat and a calorie "overage" to gain muscle...ergo can't be done at the same time.
That said...while this makes perfect sense in theory...there are obvious other factors in both equations that don't fit a "one size fits all" shoe that biologists, bodybuilders, and internet buffs just can't fit for everyone.
I myself HAVE lost fat and gained muscle at the same time....without lifting weights!!! Go figure? Why...what's the science behind that...I have none...just before/after pics!
I guess this just goes to show I have a ton more to learn about weight loss!!
This is my perspective as a physical educator/fitness trainer who has always maintained a healthy weight: You can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
Kaplods - I liked your post as it was pretty thorough on both sides of the issue and I want to reiterate one of your points. The TYPE of calories we eat is mega important to body composition.
We need carbs for energy. Ya know what fat is, though - stored energy. Energy that is still usable, so I would guess that carbs would be the first to go when cutting calories.
Muscles need protein to rebuild them when we break them down during weight training. A LOT of protein.
Our bodies need fat calories, too.
There are many ways to nourish the body depending on what you're doing. Meaning, if you lifted weights for 90 minutes, I believe you should nourish the body with a specific combo of protein, carbs and fat calories in the hour after you've trained. However, I know someone who waits an hour after they train before they eat, and they nourish their body with a different percentage of these calories than I do.
My advice would be to consult a sport nutritionist to sort out myth from fact, and also to sort out sound advice to decide which strategy is best for you.
Most imporantly, no matter what you do, nutrition works in conjunction with exercise. You cannot eat healthy alone, and you cannot exercise without proper nutrition and lose weight in a healthy manner.
just my two sense... many very overweight people APPEAR to gain muscle after a lot of fat loss, because carrying around so much extra weigt for so long builds large muscles, and then when you shed the fat, they are revealed, so to speak..... there is someyhing to be said for "newbie" gains, though i dont understand it. Physiologically its pretty cut and dry, as mentioned above, that yo cant BUILD while in a caloric deficit...... under most circumstances this is very true..... just to re-iterate, many show the appearance of gaining muscle, due to shedding the fat layer that was coverig it up
This is my perspective as a physical educator/fitness trainer who has always maintained a healthy weight...
If your height/weight posted are accurate, you are NOT at a healthy weight according to BMI...you are actually underweight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkroyer
..... there is someyhing to be said for "newbie" gains, though i dont understand it. Physiologically its pretty cut and dry, as mentioned above, that yo cant BUILD while in a caloric deficit...... under most circumstances this is very true.....
So I reiterate...there is still MUCH we do not know about fat loss/muscle gain from a "physiological" standpoint. If it were "one size fits all", there would be no "exceptions".
I believe IMPERFECT mankind's knowledge of science/biology is MINIMAL at best and leaves much to be desired. My advice to the OP, try different things and see what works for you. I know for a fact that what works for me, doesn't work for many others and visa versa. Bottom line is...RESULTS..do whatever gets you those...heck with science!
Then there's the whole concept of "building" muscle. Women don't have the right hormones to really build pounds upon pounds of muscle tissue. Using them, exercising them, making them stronger, firmer, swelling from water retention, whatever you want to call it, but there's no way to tell how much they "grew" since there's no way to tell how much you really had to start with.
You can have very expensive testing done to measure your body fat, but mostly it's all "guesstimates" to decide that a 150 pound woman has 20 percent body fat. Still no way to tell how much of your lean body mass is bones, organs, and muscles. So you can't really unequivocally say you lost 50 pounds of fat and gained 15 pounds of muscle which is a total loss of body mass of 35 pounds.
Basically all you can do is work with what you've got and hope for the best. Resistance training can help prevent muscle loss, change the shape of your body, and keep your muscles metabolically active, help with posture and affect the fit of your clothes. Whether you're building it or not, at least you're using it. Unless you're aiming to be a bodybuilder, I don't think it matters if you're building muscle so much as using your whole body to it's full potential.
This is an interesting discussion. I wasn't aware that one might not be able to build muscle while losing fat... and frankly, it still doesn't make sense to me biologically. I've not done much reading on either topic though, and know nothing of exercise science, so my perspective is pretty uninformed.
However, I will say that I believe I've truly seen some muscle gain while losing fat over the past two months. Not just fat loss which has uncovered muscle (though I know that I am experiencing that as well in some parts of my body), but actual muscle gain from strength training. I haven't had much muscle in my biceps over the past 10 years, an observation I made not just from appearance but from the feel of my arms and my strength. After 6 weeks of lifting, though, I definitely DO have quite a bit of muscle in my biceps. My arms upper arms have grown in circumference (I wish I would lose some fat there - it's not fun that they've gotten larger!), I can see the muscle both when I'm flexing and when I'm not, and at the same number of sets and reps I can lift more weight than I could 6 weeks ago. I do believe that I probably develop upper body muscle more easily than average for a woman (back in high school when I was athletic I had more upper body than lower body strength, and now it might have something to do with my elevated testosterone level), but regardless: I am pretty certain that I have indeed built muscle while losing fat.
Last edited by chickadee32; 03-24-2011 at 01:27 PM.
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I call BS. I've done both at the same time on this journey. The quality of your diet and what you do for lifting plays a big role, as do genetics, I'm sure, but I've seen plenty of folks at our gym do the same, putting on muscle mass and strength gains while leaning out. For me, I have to be in a calorie deficit to drop fat, but I really think that's because I don't care to go totally religious with the clean eats. I've seen people lean out on a calorie surplus eating paleo (guys especially seem able to get away with murder there, dangit!), but I've never been able to totally give up the sugar, so I end up having to use a calorie deficit to lean out, but I've still been able to put on muscle mass during that time, as long as I keep lifting and working out like I mean it. The trick for me is always keeping the intensity up there and lifting heavy, without letting myself turn into an eating machine, which is a struggle for me...I get so freaking hungry and whiny! If you want it bad enough and have the willpower to give up the foods that are holding you back, you can do just about anything, ladies. Go forth, lift heavy, eat as clean as you can, and see what's possible!
Joy, I looked it up but still don't know where to post it. I'd love for you to read it coz I feel peeps put too much importance on BMI. It's under support forum, featherweights, Most confusing assessment.
To me, labeling someone with a "bad" BMI and making a judgement on it (not that you were judgemental At ALL ) is like saying a Redwood tree is a bad tree because it's too big. Yeah, it's a HUGE tree but it's pretty darned amazing! Some peeps have bad BMIs and they don't get credit for what they really are.
Joy, I looked it up but still don't know where to post it. I'd love for you to read it coz I feel peeps put too much importance on BMI. It's under support forum, featherweights, Most confusing assessment.
To me, labeling someone with a "bad" BMI and making a judgement on it (not that you were judgemental At ALL ) is like saying a Redwood tree is a bad tree because it's too big. Yeah, it's a HUGE tree but it's pretty darned amazing! Some peeps have bad BMIs and they don't get credit for what they really are.
I agree that BMI is definitely not always accurate (as in the case of bodybuilders like your bf) I understand that...I was a bodybuilder. That said, I personally know that at my height (5'9), a weight of 125 lbs is casket weight for me...but maybe it's a "healthy" weight for you. I just thought I'd point that out in light of your statement.
I agree that BMI is definitely not always accurate (as in the case of bodybuilders like your bf) I understand that...I was a bodybuilder. That said, I personally know that at my height (5'9), a weight of 125 lbs is casket weight for me...but maybe it's a "healthy" weight for you. I just thought I'd point that out in light of your statement.
Crud, Joyful, IDK what is a healthy weight for me. All I know is that no matter what I do, 125 seems to be my number and currently, 125 lbs of more muscle and less fat is what I got and it feels better than ever before. Even with every single pregnancy (4) I only gained 28 pounds and lost it all in the first 6-8 weeks and came quickly back to 125.
This is where most peeps in my life gag.
I get it. But hopefully, and it seems you understand, that BMI is not the end-all of who's healthy and who's not.
Crud, Joyful, IDK what is a healthy weight for me. All I know is that no matter what I do, 125 seems to be my number and currently, 125 lbs of more muscle and less fat is what I got and it feels better than ever before. Even with every single pregnancy (4) I only gained 28 pounds and lost it all in the first 6-8 weeks and came quickly back to 125.
This is where most peeps in my life gag.
I get it. But hopefully, and it seems you understand, that BMI is not the end-all of who's healthy and who's not.
We agree.
Did you join this site because you are interested in losing weight?
Confused by the whole you can't build muscle and lose fat thing?
