Weight Loss Support - 'Why are thin people not fat?'




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serendipity907
02-17-2011, 10:11 AM
Found this programme on Youtube and thought it quite interesting, as I am sure some of you will.

It demonstrates what can happen when 'naturally thin' people eat consistently extreme amounts of calories over time and why.

Part 1 is here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-A0iHSdcA


beerab
02-17-2011, 11:18 AM
Thin people aren't fat cuz a good portion of them are LUCKY.

Take my husband- eats probably 3,000 calories a day, eats tons of carbs, drinks a soda each day, eats HUGE lunches, eats chips and whatever else, and yet is not overweight.

His typical day:
Breakfast: 2 special K bars and a yogurt
Lunch: 1 bottle of soda, two sandwiches on white bread (rotates between meat and mayo or pb and j), small bag of chips, a pack of fruit snacks, a bowl of chili or mac and cheese (his coworkers call his bag the never ending lunch)
Dinner: Whatever I cook- this is his healthiest meal of the day, yesterday was whole wheat pasta, marinara sauce, meatballs, and parmesan cheese- and a HUGE plate of it.

If I ate like him I'd EASILY be 300 lbs. Eating like him is what made me gain so much weight IMO.

ArtyKay
02-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Some are lucky, that's true...but most thin people who say "I eat and eat, but can't gain weight!!" really aren't eating as much as they think.

I've been around a lot of "naturally thin" people. It's about 20 percent good genes, I think. Most of it is that they just don't eat more than they need most of the time. My husband's thin...he eats when he's hungry, and most of the time just eats as much as he needs. He's also really active, so what he does eat gets burned off.

They don't stuff themselves, they're more active. I really don't think this is a big mystery, in my experience! Anyway, this is really interesting, I'm going to finish watching it. :)


**ew, the part where he's looking at the bovine fat...I'm just imagining how all my extra fat would look in a big glass bowl. :(


Mickeypnd
02-17-2011, 12:39 PM
while I think some of it has to do with the fact that naturally think people are lucky, thin people just have smaller stomachs and only eat when they want to eat, they don't eat when they're bored or they lead very active life styles.

and if they are lucky now, they wont be later in life.

LandonsBaby
02-17-2011, 12:39 PM
I don't understand the term "naturally thin"? I have been thin and I have been fat. I am fat because I eat too much. I was thin because I ate a normal amount. Wouldn't most of us be "naturally thin" if we just didn't overindulge?

I can't compare myself to a husband who can put away mass amounts of food and still be thin because he's 19 inches taller than me, male and has much more muscle. He's still just eating what he needs and there is no law that says he couldn't get fat too if he ate more than he needed.

TheBunneh
02-17-2011, 12:47 PM
I don't understand the term "naturally thin"? I have been thin and I have been fat. I am fat because I eat too much. I was thin because I ate a normal amount. Wouldn't most of us be "naturally thin" if we just didn't overindulge?

I think the meaning of "naturally thin" is a person who is thin without thinking about it at all. They will "naturally" adjust their eating to what their bodies need. For example a person who over indulges at a dinner party and the next day feels very little hunger and does not eat much at all.

My husband is like that. He can eat a shocking amount of food in one sitting, then the next day he won't be hungry at all and forgets about food completely until dinner.

ArtyKay
02-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Crazy...I like the last part where it talks about losing weight. how their brain and body regards the proper amount of food and goes into starvation mode when they don't overeat, and that when you're obese your body tries to stay that way because it sees that as the weight you should be.

So I'm not crazy, my body really is fighting with me. :p



this one's pretty cool too.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOx9uwBfKGc&feature=related

JohnP
02-17-2011, 12:52 PM
For those of you who don't want to watch the video it basically makes the following points. (Which aren't new to anyone who has been reading about this topic).

Some people are "naturally thin" for some of following reasons. Not all apply to thin people.

1) They have a tendency not to over eat in the first place. This means they stop eating when they are full even if there is more tasty food in front of them. There appears to be a genetic component to this.

2) They increase their spontaneous energy output. As in, they fidget or move around more. Also appears to have a genetic component. (Although the video didn't mention it fat people have a tendancy to become more effecient with their movements faster than skinny people which is also genetic.)

3) They partition calories differently meaning over eating builds muscle and not fat stores even without exercise. Definately genetic.

Finally they touched on the setpoint theory which is our bodies want to be a certain weight which helped the skinny people return to their previous skinny selves quickly.

The video did touch one point I had not heard before that people can potentially become fatter due to viral infection. In one group tested 20% had this virus.

MonicaM
02-17-2011, 01:02 PM
My theory is that "naturally thin" people do not love food like heavy people do. I have two obese friends and two thin friends at my gym. The two obese (and me!) talk about recipes, restaurants, what we are dying for; while the thin ones talk about their families, exercising, the news, the weather.

gagalu
02-17-2011, 01:19 PM
Finally they touched on the setpoint theory which is our bodies want to be a certain weight which helped the skinny people return to their previous skinny selves quickly.



thank you for the summary!

what do you think of the setpoint theory?

Tomato
02-17-2011, 01:31 PM
I have two of those "naturally thin" people among my close colleagues.
Both are males (around 45), both are smokers.
Colleague No. 1 eats any and every junk food you can imagine: burgers, fries (even fries with poutine - eeeew!), pizza, regular Coke, etc. He LOVES his junk food. While I don't much about what they eat at home, I know that he has 3 kids and his wife is a stay at home mom, so I would imagine there is some "corner cutting" when it comes to food. He also hates whole wheat pasta so if they have pasta it would be white.
No matter what he eats, he doesn't gain an ounce.

Colleague No. 2: He is single and I don't know if or what he cooks or what he eats. But quite regularly, I see him bring a Timmie's breakfast sandwich (= engish muffin + sausage + egg + cheese) to work. At lunch time, the breakfast sandwich still sits on his desk, only half-eaten.
I really don't know how he does it. I would not be able to sit and stare at the food all day long (not to mention that if I had only half of the sandwich for breakfast, my stomach would rumble very loudly by 10 a.m.).

I just don't know.

JohnP
02-17-2011, 02:07 PM
thank you for the summary!

what do you think of the setpoint theory?

I think something is going on hormonally but that habitual behavior and enviornmental factors are more to blame for difficulty in losing weight.

mandalinn82
02-17-2011, 02:27 PM
My theory is that "naturally thin" people do not love food like heavy people do. I have two obese friends and two thin friends at my gym. The two obese (and me!) talk about recipes, restaurants, what we are dying for; while the thin ones talk about their families, exercising, the news, the weather.

I know a serious foodie (the guy is OBSESSED with food, he loves to make it and he loves to eat it), who eats (according to my estimates when we worked together and I was staying at his house, therefore seeing everything he eats) about 3400-4000 cals/day, and is super skinny. There are people with ridiculous metabolisms, and they may love food just as much as heavier people. His partner goes on WW, makes 4 serving recipes...and this guy eats 3/4 servings while his partner eats one. And he still maintains his weight.

I know other thin people who don't eat all day, run around like crazy, forget about food, and then eat what seems like a lot at night, but that really equates to 1600-2000 calories worth of food for the day.

I know other thin people who do the stopping when full, but eat throughout the day. They just have a strong "off" button when full.

There are as many kinds of "thin people" as there are "fat people". They have in common that they eat a number of calories appropriate to what their metabolism burns. They vary widely in how they eat those calories, their relationship to food, the speed at which that metabolism burns and therefore how many calories they can actually eat. Just as heavier people have many reasons and ways for becoming fat (some ate more healthy foods, some have genuinely slower metabolic rates ie with PCOS or thyroid disorders, some get stuck in binge/starve cycles, etc), thinner people have many reasons and ways that they maintain normal weights.

Which is why debates like this make me crazy. There is no one "naturally thin" archetype, and to me it's just as offensive as assuming that every fat person got fat by watching too much TV and eating Twinkies.

niafabo
02-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Just finished watching the full documentary and while I found it interesting I also found it disheartening since it practically told me there is no way I will be able to keep my weight off. I took two one month breaks from my weight loss journey once when my father diet in August and once when I ripped a muscle early December and I did not gain any weight during either of those breaks but actually lost a couple of pounds even though my eating habbits especially the one in August were rather bad. Not sure if that means my set point changed or if it was just left over weight loss from when I was losing but I haven't worried much about maintaince until now. Eeeek.

JohnP
02-17-2011, 02:44 PM
Just finished watching the full documentary and while I found it interesting I also found it disheartening since it practically told me there is no way I will be able to keep my weight off.

That is not even slightly true! Statistics are simple statistics! What the video really told you is that you are never going to be able to eat whatever in want in any portion size you want and stay skinny. You already knew that though. The vast majority of us on this site are never going to be swimwear models either! So what? Don't let the lucky genetics of a lucky few get you down. You're learning good healthy habits and you can maintain them.

nessalyn
02-17-2011, 03:18 PM
I have a "naturally thin" friend as well, I think everyone does! But she can sit and eat cheetos all day and drink alcohol like a fish and she basically fluctuates around 5 lbs.
If only we could all be so lucky!

Mickeypnd
02-17-2011, 03:22 PM
the thing i did find interesting about this doc. is when the showed the children, asked if they were all full, and majority said yes. then they handed then a plate of treats and the ones that were full still ate, just because it was there while others didn't because they just weren't full.

they stated that even at an early age people will continue to eat even though they are full just because the food looks nice.
i think this is interesting, that something like this is shown even at such a young age.

yet my brother is like this, but he is super active, so he's nice and healthy looking.
I just like how the body works! :)

JOLINA
02-17-2011, 03:33 PM
I was a model at one time and very skinny.
I was constantly hungry. The hunger never went away.
But I had a balanced diet.
There are a lot of thin people out there that are hungry most of the time.
They put up with it to stay slim.

It is better to be 10 pounds overweight than deal with hunger all the time.
Of course, you might have to watch the calories every day.

hope for recovery
02-19-2011, 09:39 AM
I started losing weight when i started eating everything and i think i eat a lot but it is in my head. When normal people eat when then are hungry and stop when they are full, then their metabolism is fine and they burn the calories like my mums 4 fried eggs meal and tiny waist size. When people like me try to starve myself and stay hungry, I mess up my metabolism, my body goes into craving so my next meal makes up for all the previous one and it goes stored as fat. On top of this i feel depressed and eat out of emotion. Normal people don't do that. Also normal people tend to be more energetic or so it seemed to me. I used to sleep after lunch coz i ate too much, mum got on with gardening, no wonder she can eat so much!

PaulaM
02-19-2011, 12:57 PM
I was slim until I hit my 40s. The main reason I gained weight was that I stopped working out due to a three hour a day commute. I firmly believe that as long as you get plenty of exercise you can MAINTAIN your weight. However, having said that I think once you are heavy you have to watch what you eat and also exercise regularly. Once the fat cells are in your body they will always be there and fight to regain the fat that you lose. I don't think any of us in here are "naturally skinny" or we wouldn't have gained the weight. Don't get me started on what happens to your body after menopause, cause it's absolutely maddening.

My husband has never been heavy. He would say that he eats whatever he wants, but what he wants is always healthy food. He wouldn't eat a french fry or fried foods if you held a gun to his head. He never continues to eat past the time he is full, no matter how much food is still on the plate. I know he doesn't have a clue as to how hard is it for me to lose weight. He will say things like just don't put the food in your mouth and you will lose. We all know that's true, but there's so much more to it than that. The mental part is what is hardest of all to overcome.

DixC Chix
02-19-2011, 10:16 PM
Can we go back to what JohnP said at the end:

The video did touch one point I had not heard before that people can potentially become fatter due to viral infection. In one group tested 20% had this virus.


Wait... what!!??!!

The virus, known as AD-36, infects the lungs then whisks around the body, forcing fat cells to multiply and also causing sore throats.

"When this virus goes to fat tissue it replicates, making more copies of itself and in the process increases the number of new fat cells, which may explain why the fat tissue expands and why people get fat when they are infected with this virus," Dhurandhar said. In one test, a third of obese people had the rare and highly contagious virus compared to just 11 percent of thinner people. Weight gain can last three months until the body has built up resistance to the bug.



Whoa and there's a bacterial difference too??!!

The study of the effect of infectious agents on metabolism is still in its early stages. Gut flora has been shown to differ between lean and obese humans. There is an indication that gut flora in obese and lean individuals can affect the metabolic potential. This apparent alteration of the metabolic potential is believed to confer a greater capacity to harvest energy contributing to obesity. Whether these differences are the direct cause or the result of obesity has yet to be determined unequivocally.[1]



At least there is research going on. But what does it mean? Should we get tested? What can and should we do about it?

kaplods
02-19-2011, 10:50 PM
At least there is research going on. But what does it mean? Should we get tested? What can and should we do about it?

I don't believe there is a test available, at least not to the general public (and even if you were able to get into a research study, the results aren't always shared with the test subjects).

Obesity research is still pretty much it's infancy. It's just now starting to look at the differences between obese and nonobese - and the differences between various types of obesity.

At this point much of the research is interesting, but of very limited value to most of us. Trial and error, is still what most of us are left with.

fivestone
02-19-2011, 11:08 PM
What the video did was reinforce what I have thankfully truly learned from this site (I knew it intellectually before 3FC, but know I /know/ it...):

There are likely often so many different factors as to why some people struggle with overweight and obesity that it's not possible to just boil it down to lifestyle and an input/output ratio, and it's incredibly unfair to people to just make it sound like they're defective and lacking willpower because they're not at what a chart says is their ideal weight... at the same time, it's not always a sign that someone is super on top of their health just because they do fit that ideal -- they could just be a person in the video that literally feels ill when they try to eat more than a limited amount.

Txalupa
04-01-2011, 10:43 AM
I know this is old, but I thought it could use a bump.

In my weight loss over the past 1+ year I have learned a few things that pertain to this thread.

1. Some people have good genes.
2. Some people eat their feelings but have the potential to be thin (me)
3. People CAN teach themselves to not eat their feelings (I'm working on it)
4. Thin people have problems too.
5. As much as we do it, comparing ourselves and our bodies to other people will get us nowhere. It is much more productive to be inspired by someone's hard work and dedication to health than it is to be jealous of a genetically thin person (working on this as well).

kaplods
04-01-2011, 03:10 PM
There are as many kinds of "thin people" as there are "fat people".

It's amazing to me how many people try to pidgeon-hole all fat people, and all thin people into a homogenous group, when there's ample evidence to the contrary. There are many different types, degrees and causes of obesity, and there are many different types, degrees and causes of thinness.

I think the metabolism research is fascinating, but some of the most startling research results are often down-played because it's seen as "giving people excuses," (which to me is a silly argument, excuses don't find people - people find excuses. Most people use information appropriately - simply as information. And the people who want excuses, will find or invent one with no regard whatsover to the truth).


Some of the setpoint theory was developed in light of surprising research that found it can be as difficult to put weight on people as it is to lose it.

It's not isolated research. There've been several very similar experiments, with similar results.

Essentially, these experiments took a group of thin to average weight people and tried to make them gain weight. Populations were as diverse as prison inmates, and college students and people in the military. (The test populations do tend to be biased towards younger male subjects. It would be nice to know if these results would be replicated in asubject group more diverse in age and gender).

Even with huge amounts of extra calories, the subjects didn't gain nearly as much weight, or in the pattern that was epected. A large number gained no weight at all. Most didn't gain nearly as much as the extra calorie level would have predicted, and when the studies were over, most of the men lost the weight rapidly, usually without conscious effort.


Interesting stuff, but what does it prove?

Not a heck of a lot, especially when all the rest of the weight loss research is taken into account. The only simple statement that can be made with any truth is that "It's complicated." There are as many ways to become fat (and become less fat) as there are ways to become thin (and become less thin).

It's human nature (and our cultue as well) to want to simplify truths, and often that means oversimplifying them to the point that a whole lot of truth is being lost in the simplification process.

We have to stop treating obesity as a one-size-fits-all problem with a one-size-fits-all solution. There's ample evidence that doing so doesn't work. It's like trying to find a single medication for all headaches, whether they be caused by migraines, stress, hangover, cold, flu, sinus infection, meningitis, head injury or cancer.

Excess body fat is a symptom, not a single disorder. And I don't think we'll make really good strides in the obesity treatment until the individual variables are more closely examined, and better understood.

Until that happens though, we're all mostly left with an experiment of one, and we have to be both scientist and lab rat, and as a result we can't avoid observer bias (we see what we expect to see, and what seems true isn't always what is true).

supergir111
04-01-2011, 04:03 PM
Kaploids your post is so spot on :)

JohnP
04-01-2011, 04:15 PM
Kaploids your post is so spot on :)

As always. We need to get her on Oprah before the show goes off the air! Inject some common sense into the usual rediculous crap they have on that show.

/rant
I remember watching a dietary special episode of Oprah. There was a really interesting guy talking about how fat isn't bad, the importance of renewable farming, buying from local farmers markets ... etc ... he was quickly shuffled off and Alycia Silverstone was brought on and she talked about how she had become a vegan and how much energy she had now. Her hair, nails, and skin were all much healthier which she and Oprah attributed to her new vegan diet. They touched on her old meat diet which consisted primarily of donuts and cheeseburgers. Not surprisingly it was meat that was getting the bad rap. Spent a lot of time with Alycia ... I think she even wrote a book. Please :(... .

osaunt
04-01-2011, 09:02 PM
There was a really interesting guy talking about how fat isn't bad, the importance of renewable farming, buying from local farmers markets

In case you're interested, that guy is Michael Pollen and he's written several books: The Omnivore's Dilemma, In Defense of Food, Food Rules(I think there's one more, but I can't remember.) I highly recommend them all, he offers tremendous insight into the environmental and nutritional impacts of factory farming and I personally find it fascinating and it has greatly influenced my choices at the market.

JohnP and Kaplods I always look forward to posts from both of you :hug: I really appreciate all of your contributions because I always learn something new:)

JohnP
04-01-2011, 10:28 PM
In case you're interested, that guy is Michael Pollen and he's written several books: The Omnivore's Dilemma, In Defense of Food, Food Rules(I think there's one more, but I can't remember.) I highly recommend them all, he offers tremendous insight into the environmental and nutritional impacts of factory farming and I personally find it fascinating and it has greatly influenced my choices at the market.

JohnP and Kaplods I always look forward to posts from both of you :hug: I really appreciate all of your contributions because I always learn something new:)

If you like my posts you should know that most of my knowledge on this subject comes from having read most of Lyle Mcdonald's site (free), Alan Aragon's research review ($10 a month), and from Martin Berkhan's blog leangains. What all three of these guys have in common is science backed by years of field experience.

nelie
04-01-2011, 10:47 PM
As always. We need to get her on Oprah before the show goes off the air! Inject some common sense into the usual rediculous crap they have on that show.

/rant
I remember watching a dietary special episode of Oprah. There was a really interesting guy talking about how fat isn't bad, the importance of renewable farming, buying from local farmers markets ... etc ... he was quickly shuffled off and Alycia Silverstone was brought on and she talked about how she had become a vegan and how much energy she had now. Her hair, nails, and skin were all much healthier which she and Oprah attributed to her new vegan diet. They touched on her old meat diet which consisted primarily of donuts and cheeseburgers. Not surprisingly it was meat that was getting the bad rap. Spent a lot of time with Alycia ... I think she even wrote a book. Please :(... .

I know that is your perception on the episode which I didn't see but a vegan diet is very sustainable and can be very 'green' which is why I imagine the two were coupled on a single episode.

kaplods
04-01-2011, 10:57 PM
As always. We need to get her on Oprah before the show goes off the air! Inject some common sense into the usual rediculous crap they have on that show.

It would never happen, not even if I had a best-selling weight loss biography in my hands today.

Not that I think I'm a bastion of common sense. I try very hard to be rational in my beliefs, but there's plenty of ridiculous thoughts running around my head too (I just usually have the good sense not to admit them often).

But common sense is anathema to edutainment television. The information seems important to the show, but it really isn't. You'll never find a well balanced approach on any of the talk shows, because common sense and balance are considered big time snooze-fests, and common sense is often edited out.

There was a positng here recently, linking to a blog article by Gary Taubes describing the editing that was done during his recent appearance on the Dr. Oz show to make the show more controversial (and therefore more entertaining).

Apparently and unfortunately, "You have a good point, but I disagree on some points," is considered a lot less entertaining than "You've got it all wrong and your crackpot theories are dangerous."

I've seen Dr. Oz support (or at least refrain from criticizing) crazier theories, so it does sound like reason was sacrificed in the name of debate.

Too bad.

Brooklynn
04-02-2011, 06:49 AM
I certainly cant say that I am a naturally thin person obviously, but my doctor has said this ( you have a metabolism that will burn what you eat at what ever weight you are) this was in responce to my question "I dont understand why I dont gain weight and the reason I am big came from three kids and not losing but I cant seem to loose it now. I am burning what I give my body but no more so I dont lose I just stay at the same place. Basicly he was saying that no matter my weight my metabolism seems to burn enough that I dont gain. I dont know how true this is but before I had kids I ate things that were insaily fatty or full of carbs. The only difference in the food is it matched my size. My husband and I were talking about it and he told me "honestly honey when we first met you would eat one taco or a small peice of steak and potatoes or whatever now you eat 3 tacos and a huge peice of meat" This came from me asking if I eat more now then I did when I was small because I didnt think the types of food changed. Like I said I cant say I am naturally skinny because well I am fat, but I think this could have something to do with why skinny people dont get fat with out something happening like pregnancy or just dont get fat period. but honestly I dont know how true what my doctor said is its just something that I remember him saying.

Brooklynn
04-02-2011, 06:54 AM
the thing i did find interesting about this doc. is when the showed the children, asked if they were all full, and majority said yes. then they handed then a plate of treats and the ones that were full still ate, just because it was there while others didn't because they just weren't full.

they stated that even at an early age people will continue to eat even though they are full just because the food looks nice.
i think this is interesting, that something like this is shown even at such a young age.

yet my brother is like this, but he is super active, so he's nice and healthy looking.
I just like how the body works! :)
I think your last sentence is the key "healthy looking" even if your skinny you cant pump your body full of crap day in and day out and not expect to have some health issues. Skinny doesnt equal healthy and fat doesnt equal unhealthy but I think thats where a lot of people have issues because they assume that if your fat your unhealthy and if your skinny your not. We are doing good things for our bodies and even if we are fat doesnt mean we are not helping our bodies be healthy!

JohnP
04-02-2011, 11:20 AM
I dont know how true what my doctor said is its just something that I remember him saying.

There is no way he could have accurately made this statement without performing the necessary tests which I am certain he didn't do.

JohnP
04-02-2011, 11:25 AM
I know that is your perception on the episode which I didn't see but a vegan diet is very sustainable and can be very 'green' which is why I imagine the two were coupled on a single episode.

You have missed my point. The point is that they were basterdizing meat but the real culprit was that Alycia Silverstone had a very crappy diet before. A change to any healthy diet with greens and vegtables while cutting out the donuts and other crap would have had the same result.

As for a vegan diet I would love to see how long a vegan could live a healthy life without supplementing vitamin B. It is not very sustainable, at all, without supplementation and therefore not a diet we as humans are designed to live on.

JohnP
04-02-2011, 11:28 AM
But common sense is anathema to edutainment television. The information seems important to the show, but it really isn't. You'll never find a well balanced approach on any of the talk shows, because common sense and balance are considered big time snooze-fests, and common sense is often edited out.

There was a positng here recently, linking to a blog article by Gary Taubes describing the editing that was done during his recent appearance on the Dr. Oz show to make the show more controversial (and therefore more entertaining).

Good points I don't know why I keep forgetting TV producers only care about one thing.

Regarding Taubes vs Oz I was expecting Oz to ask Taubes some tough questions but instead Oz just came off looking like he had no clue.

nelie
04-02-2011, 06:52 PM
You have missed my point. The point is that they were basterdizing meat but the real culprit was that Alycia Silverstone had a very crappy diet before. A change to any healthy diet with greens and vegtables while cutting out the donuts and other crap would have had the same result.

As for a vegan diet I would love to see how long a vegan could live a healthy life without supplementing vitamin B. It is not very sustainable, at all, without supplementation and therefore not a diet we as humans are designed to live on.

Well the official answer is somewhere around 3 years as our body stores vitamin b12. Unofficially, I think everyone should supplement, regardless of their diet. There are some long term, multigenerational vegans that are involved in organic farming that don't supplement b12 because it comes from the soil. Our super washed veggies in the store generally lack b12. Organic veggies that are rinsed but not washed vigorously will have some b12 but I don't trust that as a sole source.

And really when I said sustainable, I was talking about in terms of environmentalism, which obviously a high plant diet is environmentally friendly.

JohnP
04-03-2011, 03:24 AM
And really when I said sustainable, I was talking about in terms of environmentalism, which obviously a high plant diet is environmentally friendly.

Gotcha. I have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to vegans because I love to eat meat. :D