General chatter - WHY In $##% Would We Allow This?




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EZMONEY
11-25-2010, 08:39 AM
It just blows me away that....

4-5 BEERS in one can and CAFFEINE! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!! :mad:

#1 ANYBODY would manufacture this type of product...knowing damn well the risk and possible harm to people :mad:

#2 PEOPLE are dumb enough to try it...stupid-stupid kids :mad:

#3 Our Government ALLOWS the sale of it :mad::mad:....thank goodness some states are catching on and not allowing sales :carrot:

Don't know all that much about it but I bet the advertising "market" is kids...my under 21 year old nephew is one of those that would try it just to "SEE" how bad it is.....aaarrrghhhh!

Today, when I see him....I will put the fear of death in him to see if he ever has or has considered it!


http://www.nctimes.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/article_87e0279d-b347-563c-acd5-540303848e6e.html


Ciao
11-25-2010, 09:33 AM
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/JeMappelleSierra/Photography/divider-2.jpg
I know all too well about how dumb
people can be. I see it every day.

There were these kids at my school
once and they were bragging about
being high, smoking shrooms, and
other drugs. :snooty:

I really do hope the government
does stop this and it's good that
some states are taking action.
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/JeMappelleSierra/Photography/divider-2.jpg

seagirl
11-25-2010, 09:35 AM
Do they not sell giant bottles of flavored vodka in your state? Red Bull? Kegs of beer? Kitchen knives that people could kill someone with?

Where is the line drawn?


nelie
11-25-2010, 09:50 AM
I've known people to go to a bar, have a couple red bulls and then have beer. What is the difference?

Coondocks
11-25-2010, 10:09 AM
I've known people to go to a bar, have a couple red bulls and then have beer. What is the difference?



I've been bartending for years and always wonderd why there is such an issue now. People drink liqueres/liquor in their coffee, all night sometimes, there's plenty of people that do that, have been doing that for years upon years upon years . . . no one seems to question that though. Seems odd.

yhahmd
11-25-2010, 11:02 AM
I've been bartending for years and always wonderd why there is such an issue now. People drink liqueres/liquor in their coffee, all night sometimes, there's plenty of people that do that, have been doing that for years upon years upon years . . . no one seems to question that though. Seems odd.

I *think* the only difference is if someone is too dumb/distracted to pay attention (or maybe they're the type that like to show off how much they can drink and still be standing), they could easily drink WAY too much. I mean, I know people who can put away 2-3 cans of monster, so I'm sure they could put away just as much of four loco.

:shrug:

I don't know though, I don't drink the stuff or know anyone that does (to my knowledge) so that's just a guess.

Heather
11-25-2010, 12:06 PM
Given all the ways people misuse and abuse alcohol, I guess I just don't get why this is such a big deal. It's also not new. Isn't rum and coke mixing caffeine and alcohol?

I do agree that the advertising targeting young adults is probably irresponsible.

Wild Vulpix
11-25-2010, 12:12 PM
I don't drink alcohol, and I hardly drink coffee, so I'm not up to date on the risks of both.

And I definitely don't know the risks of the combination! Would someone mind breaking it down for me?

Coondocks
11-25-2010, 12:27 PM
I *think* the only difference is if someone is too dumb/distracted to pay attention (or maybe they're the type that like to show off how much they can drink and still be standing), they could easily drink WAY too much. I mean, I know people who can put away 2-3 cans of monster, so I'm sure they could put away just as much of four loco.

:shrug:

I don't know though, I don't drink the stuff or know anyone that does (to my knowledge) so that's just a guess.

That's what makes me shake my head, it's the excessive consumption of it. Heather, you have it right, rum and coke, rye, whiskey, coke, pepsi, mountain dew . . . there are a lot of caffeine/alcohol drinks no one bats an eyelash at.
I think it's the size more than anything that has people bothered, but even that surprises me in a day and age where the supersize, man vs food, xtreme eating contests have become the norm . . . . why this such a controversy? Perhaps it's the lack of education behind it, at least people are aware eating an 8lb burger isn't one bit healthy.:p

I still don't get it. Working, I'd be more inclined to give some one one of those than the people I see downing 6 shots of tequila in 30 minutes.

EZMONEY
11-25-2010, 12:33 PM
You ladies are killin' me :D

I am out numbered so I will stand corrected.....

I guess it is logical to have 5 beers worth of alcohol in a 23 oz. can and market youth of America.....

:dizzy:

EZMONEY
11-25-2010, 12:40 PM
I don't drink alcohol, and I hardly drink coffee, so I'm not up to date on the risks of both.

And I definitely don't know the risks of the combination! Would someone mind breaking it down for me?

The caffeine overrides the natural sleepiness that happens when someone drinks alcohol. This delays the feeling of drunkenness so those drinking these are likely to keep drinking beyond their normal limits.

EZMONEY
11-25-2010, 12:42 PM
Working, I'd be more inclined to give some one one of those than the people I see downing 6 shots of tequila in 30 minutes.

Why....:?: Still the same amount of booze.....

I am pretty sure the person downing 6 shots of tequila will be passing out quickly....

not true with the drinks under discussion....

kaplods
11-25-2010, 12:52 PM
I think the link EZ provided does break it down. It highlights the dangers very well (it certainly opened my eyes).

To be honest, my first thought was "what's the big deal - how is it different than mixing caffeine and alcohol the old-fashioned way (rum and cokes, spiked coffee, and mixed drinks with Red Bull....)?


and then I read the article. These aren't like mixing a can of Red Bull with a shot of vodka - they're more like six of those mixed drinks, the equivalent of a six pack of beer and 3 Red Bulls (or 8 cans of cola).

To me, it seems like the biggest danger is people not realizing how much they consume. Which the article alludes to. What concerned me the most is the article stating that the combination is known to be so dangerous that no studies can be done.

Understanding human psychology, most people aren't going to realize that the can is equivalent to pounding half a dozen shots, and they're not going to feel the effects of the alcohol to realize it either (because the concentrated caffeine is over-riding the sleepiness and feelings of drunkeness that tends to be cues).

There really is no hard liquor in a can, so people are going to see them as not much more different than a beer or two (not as a six-pack-in-a-can). They're not going to see them as dangerous as they are.

I'm all for letting people take whatever personal risks they wish to, but it seems to me that the risks need to be better and more widely understood.

Because these drinks look so much like much safer products that have been around for a long time (sodas, energy drinks, even beer), people are going to see them as such. It's that false sense of security that is going to literally be a killer.

seagirl
11-25-2010, 01:09 PM
You ladies are killin' me :D

I am out numbered so I will stand corrected.....

I guess it is logical to have 5 beers worth of alcohol in a 23 oz. can and market youth of America.....

:dizzy:

Aren't there like 30 shots of alcohol in a bottle of booze? And 5 glasses of wine in a bottle. Still not getting the big deal. Kids are going to do stupid things regardless of what is marketed to them. This is just posturing by the govt to say "we are protecting kids." It's not going to stop anything.

cbmare
11-25-2010, 01:13 PM
What concerned me the most is the article stating that the combination is known to be so dangerous that no studies can be done.


Now that is an incredibly scary thought! Too dangerous to be studied?!

I, too, was asking what the big deal was until you explained it so well, as you usually do.

The only way I drink coffee is with chocolate and Kahlua in it. The last one I had was in the 90s. I guess you can say that I'm not particularly into coffee.

Coondocks
11-25-2010, 01:30 PM
Why....:?: Still the same amount of booze......

% wise, yup same amount of liquor - and perhaps this point of view is coming from my experience of what i've seen over the years, but the concentration of that alcohol is going to have a completely different effect on the body (neither good mind you). 24oz beverage with 12% alcohol opposed to 6oz beverage with 40% alcohol.

kaplods
11-25-2010, 01:52 PM
I think it is very different than a bottle of vodka - because most people do know that drinking a bottle of vodka is very dangerous. If it were common knowledge that these energy-drink/alcoholic beverages were just as dangerous, then I'd have no problem with them, but I don't think that's the impression most people have (I certainly didn't).

The danger is that they look just like much safer beverages. People are going to see them as no different than mixing a can of cola with a can of beer.

It would be a bit like selling antifreeze in a bottle that looked like a soda bottle - you've made something deadly look safe.

Straight vodka is not sold in pop-top cans. Even higher proof mixed drinks aren't generally sold in cans, they're sold in screw-top bottles.

Whether we realize it or not, people make associations based on common appearance - we associate glass bottles with strong alcohol, and cans with non-alcoholic and low-alcohol beverages.

There's a similar outrage and outcry against nicotine candy sold in bright plastic hinged containers (like candy and breathmints). The nicotine mints look so much like the candy marketed to children, that there's a fear that parents and children might mistake them for candy. There's already been several accidental overdoses (yes it's the parents' responsibility to keep these out of the reach of children, but making the container look less like a candy or mint container certainly wouldn't be a bad idea).

With enough injuries and deaths, people will change their assumptions, but do we need to let it get that far? Isn't there a way to make it more clear that these substances are more dangerous than they appear?

EZMONEY
11-25-2010, 03:58 PM
Thank you KAPLODS for reading the article before responding!

Clydegirl
11-25-2010, 06:53 PM
I agree it is wrong. They are obviously targeting young people with this drink. Look at the cans who would think they had so much alcohol in them?

It would be easy to get drunk very quickly, not realising how much you have had.

I've seen reports about these drinks on The Nightly News. I'm glad some states are doing something about it.

Jojo381972
11-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Instead, the caffeine appears to override the natural sleepiness that occurs when someone drinks alcohol. It also delays the feeling of drunkenness, so those who drink an alcoholic energy drink are likely to keep drinking beyond their normal limits.



This part of the article stood out to me. I think it is wrong to sell these drinks, and the targets are youth who will drink them because it can get them drunk faster. Youth may not be aware just how fast it can get them drunk and drink way more than necessary. I hate redbull even on its own, I can't imagine drinking one of these.

KatVee
11-25-2010, 07:31 PM
So the first time I saw these, I didn't know what they were. My friend had one and they look like energy drinks. I took a sip and I could see the appeal. It tasted like fruit punch (with a horrible aftertaste). I didn't drink anymore because I was 105 back then and I already had a low tolerance for alcohol but I've seen people chug these. They say they're fine after but once the alcohol hits, it's pretty bad.

pink sparkle
11-25-2010, 08:38 PM
I agree that this drink shouldn't be sold. I know quite a few people who drink Four Loko. One I consider a borderline alcoholic. He drinks multiple beers everyday. But I saw him drink a Four Loko once and a few hours later he was out. I mean OUT. The next day he said he had the worst hangover ever. He was surprised at how bad he felt. He says he doesn't drink Four Loko anymore.

krampus
11-25-2010, 09:03 PM
Darwinism at its best!

RienQueNny
11-25-2010, 10:20 PM
We don't have them in Canada, and we were in Las Vegas ast week for a vacation, my partner loves them and had a couple during our vacation, I can't handle one sip of the stuff, it's nasty! And according to their website, Four Loko is now being produced without caffein/taurine/guarana since last week. Now it's just going to be fruity beer. Yuk.
But it was clearly unhealthy, so unhealthy that they voluntarily stopped producing it in its original form. That speaks for itself.

nelie
11-25-2010, 10:35 PM
I read the article and still, if they ban this then I think they'd need to ban other drinks with alcohol and high caffeine content. Sure you can have 1 mixed drink, but I guess I'm thinking drinkers tend to have more than one drink (I rarely drink myself - wine, once or twice/year usually)

If you want to see a list of all the formal red bull mixed drinks, here is a list:
http://www.barnonedrinks.com/drinks/by_ingredient/r/red-bull-energy-drink-754.html

When I was reading this article, I was thinking of a particular incident where I was with a few friends at a bar and one of them had 2 red bulls at least along with whatever they were drinking.

Pint Sized Terror
11-26-2010, 12:59 PM
It's been banned in my state. Good riddance. I don't like alcohol though. Not really a moral thing, just a "it tastes like nastiness" thing.

kaplods
11-26-2010, 02:53 PM
I read the article and still, if they ban this then I think they'd need to ban other drinks with alcohol and high caffeine content. Sure you can have 1 mixed drink, but I guess I'm thinking drinkers tend to have more than one drink (I rarely drink myself - wine, once or twice/year usually)


These are a lot different than a RedBull mixed drink. You would have to combine more than 3 Red Bulls and 5 shots of Vodka to get the amount of alcohol in just the one can. Since people do tend to have more than one drink, if they don't realize how strong these drinks are, just that second drink could bring them into the danger zone for alcohol poisoning.

It isn't the amount of alcohol that is the problem - people can choose to swallow caffeine pills and wash it down with a bottle of vodka - but they will know that they're doing it.

I don't know that banning is the answer, because some idiots will mix up their own, but it's education that is so important. People need to be aware of what is in these cans (especially since they don't look any more dangerous than any other canned beverage).

I don't think a warning label would be too much to ask (and a real, visible warning label, not fine print that you need a magnifying glass to see).

ANOther
11-26-2010, 03:27 PM
Do they not sell giant bottles of flavored vodka in your state? Red Bull? Kegs of beer? Kitchen knives that people could kill someone with?

Where is the line drawn?

Red Bull isn't alcoholic though, is it? It's just got a lot of caffeine. (I've never tried it or anything like it.) He's talking about that 4 Loco stuff.

My mom loves black Russians (Kahlua + vodka), and I think I tried Irish coffee once (coffee + Irish whiskey + whipped cream). I think there is a difference though: you sip the cocktails but I assume you're expected, or encouraged, or something to chug-a-lug the 4 Loco

ANOther
11-26-2010, 03:29 PM
I didn't drink anymore because I was 105 back then

:?: Good heavens, how old are you NOW??

kaplods
11-26-2010, 03:39 PM
Red Bull isn't alcoholic though, is it? It's just got a lot of caffeine. (I've never tried it or anything like it.) He's talking about that 4 Loco stuff.


Actually Red Bull doesn't have all that much caffeine (especially compared to the products talked about in the article). Red Bull has more caffeine than most sodas, but less than most coffees (ounce per ounce). Red Bull has about 10g of caffeine per ounce (80 in a can). The same 8 ounces of coffee has about 100g. 12 ounces of Mountain Dew has about 50g of caffeine.

ANOther
11-26-2010, 03:48 PM
Actually Red Bull doesn't have all that much caffeine (especially compared to the products talked about in the article). Red Bull has more caffeine than most sodas, but less than most coffees (ounce per ounce). Red Bull has about 10g of caffeine per ounce (80 in a can). The same 8 ounces of coffee has about 100g. 12 ounces of Mountain Dew has about 50g of caffeine.

Thanks kaplods, I didn't know that. (Why the heck don't they give the amount of caffeine along with the Nutrition Facts? You really have to do a lot of legwork to find out how much caf is in any given drink.) YMMV, but I suspect that RB, Rockstar and similar such drinks are pretty vile-tasting stuff? I'll stick with Zero Coke thanks

kittycarlson
11-26-2010, 03:57 PM
I work with alcoholics, people who get DUIs, MIC and MIPs. I think the danger lies exactly as EZMONEY stated. The energy component keeps them more alert so they drink more. I have also been told that the can claims that there are multiple servings per can. Which is as ridiculous as telling you that a bottle a SOBE water is two servings. In our area the ones I have heard about are called JOOSE. There are multiple fruit flavored versions and I've been told by kids that you can buy them individually for around three dollars. A 19-year-old died last spring in the community where I work from combining alcohol and energy drinks. It was in the middle of the afternoon and they were driving around in the car when he had a heart attack. I don't know if he made his own drinks or was drinking already mixed ones. The problem is kids think drinking is cool. They drink to get drunk. When you compact the amount of alcohol and energy drink they will probably drink two or more. I'm sure two or three would easily fit in girl's purses. I do think the whole liquor industry with all their kid flavored vodkas, premixed drinks etc. is wrong. But at least four wine coolers is less alcohol and feels like four servings.

KatVee
11-26-2010, 06:01 PM
:?: Good heavens, how old are you NOW??

I'm 23. I was 21 about to be 22 back then. It wasn't that long ago. Unless you thought I was 105 years old?? I should have put lbs after...haha. Hopefully I make it to three digits one day. :D

Smiller264
11-26-2010, 06:28 PM
"One can of Four Loko in a small young woman can produce a blood alcohol level of .15 ---- that's almost twice the legal limit"?!?! Good grief! Although I gave up all caffeinated drinks when I started dieting last year, I've actually been drinking a little more alcohol socially. Sounds weird, slap me on the wrist, I know, but 1) my diet problem was always overconsumption of food not drinks and 2) it happens when you date a guy who has a passion for European beers that don't taste like snot, but still, I would NEVER drink this. 1 can equaling a six pack of beer is absurd. Never understood the appeal of drinking to get drunk. On a German exchange program in high school nine years ago one of my fellow classmates mixed Red Bull and with an entire bottle of Vodka and landed himself in the emergency room for a day with alcohol poisoning. The guy didn't even learn even after getting his stomach pumped, still in the hospital he said he was going to go home and tell him family "Good times, good times". I can't imagine trying to make something popular that's known as "blackout in a can". It should be banned.

nelie
11-26-2010, 06:56 PM
These are a lot different than a RedBull mixed drink. You would have to combine more than 3 Red Bulls and 5 shots of Vodka to get the amount of alcohol in just the one can. Since people do tend to have more than one drink, if they don't realize how strong these drinks are, just that second drink could bring them into the danger zone for alcohol poisoning.


I think education is the answer, "hey alcohol and caffeine isn't the greatest idea" but this 1 drink is 24 ounces. That is a lot of alcohol and I think people would realize that. Red bulls are small cans (8 ozs) so this would be similar in caffeine and volume as 3 red bull with alcohol mixed in.

losermom
11-27-2010, 10:37 AM
I work at a state university. Obviously I'm around alot of college kids that are both of age and underage drinkers. Some of our local liquor stores are pulling this product off of their shelves at this time, but I think it is up to the discretion of the store owners. One of my student workers, he's 20 btw, said that the stuff is nasty. But his friend, a girl, bought as much of the stuff as she could (stockpiled) before it was pulled from the shelves. Every year there are students that die from alcohol related accidents or alcohol poisoning in our small midwestern town. Sadly, it doesn't seem to phase the kids. It's all about the party. I just try to stress with my own kids, 23 & 15, and my student workers, that alcohol can be really dangerous and people make stupid choices while under the influence. Of course I don't think DS15 is drinking--he's a real homebody, and DD23 is engaged and in graduate school--not much time for partying it up, but still. It's a very real danger and I personally find it pretty scary.

ANOther
11-27-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm 23. I was 21 about to be 22 back then. It wasn't that long ago. Unless you thought I was 105 years old?? I should have put lbs after...haha. Hopefully I make it to three digits one day. :D

Now I got you. Thanks, and may you make it to 105 (years!) and beyond

lizziep
11-27-2010, 05:35 PM
I think you also need to take into consideration the duration of which it takes one to consume 5 beers and 3 monsters or rockstars versus the duration of drinking one of these other beverages. Kids expect to party all night, and drinking just one of those isn't going to be enough, they're going to drink four of them. if you're drinking four long islands, you'll be good and drunk, but it'll also be like 3 hours later. three of those things seem like they could kill you.

HartLover23
12-14-2010, 11:51 PM
I don't think it's a big deal. I wouldn't drink them myself, but people routinely mix alcohol and energy drinks (I call it "liquid cocaine, and for good reason). But people have a right to drink what they want. I don't think that the government should have to nanny us and tell us what we can and cannot drink, and what we should and should not drink.

However, the marketing to younger adults is bad, but those are the people who drink that kind of alcohol to begin with. I used to not drink alcohol responsibly in college before I was 21. But really, it's parents who need to teach their kids about alcohol in the first place.

Just after reading everything, I went to a huge party school and drinking a 24-ounce Rockstar vodka or a 32-ounce long island iced tea (which, incidentally, cost $4). So I'm used to seeing very large amounts of alcohol being drunk.

HartLover23
12-14-2010, 11:55 PM
We don't have them in Canada, and we were in Las Vegas ast week for a vacation, my partner loves them and had a couple during our vacation, I can't handle one sip of the stuff, it's nasty! And according to their website, Four Loko is now being produced without caffein/taurine/guarana since last week. Now it's just going to be fruity beer. Yuk.
But it was clearly unhealthy, so unhealthy that they voluntarily stopped producing it in its original form. That speaks for itself.

I think it might also have to do with the backlash. They want to stay in business, so they have to change their product and image in order to still turn a profit. If there's too much negative press, they're going to go under.

I don't think they should be taken off the market but I've tried one before and it was nasty. I don't see how people can drink them.