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LovebirdsFlying
04-09-2010, 04:20 AM
My sister is married to a man in prison. He was in when she married him, but what is worse is that he was out when they met. Out, as in escaped. He'd given her a false name and a false personal history. The truth came out later. Amazingly, she stood by him, helped him hide from police until they finally captured him, and married him after he was put back in. She does nothing but defend the man, with excuses such as "they miscalculated his time and he should have been out anyway," and "it wasn't a violent crime," garbage like that. Personally, I don't care what he was/is in for; we all make mistakes, some worse than others. What I have no respect for is the running. Or her helping him run.

He's made it known that when he is out of prison, he wants to relocate himself, my sister, and my nephew (not his son) to a remote rural location. Isolate her, in other words. Cut her off from friends and family.

Why? So he can treat her any old way he wants to? That's what abusers do. They like to get their victims out in the boondocks, away from support.

I think he only married her believing it would help him get out sooner, especially since she's been so vocal in standing up for him, trying to find loopholes and such And once he is legitimately out, he'll have no need to run any more. She won't be spending the assistance checks that should have supported her son on ways to help him hide. What will he do to her when he doesn't "need" her any more? And will she stay blind to the signs, or open her eyes in time to get out?

The anger toward my mother comes in here. I mentioned in another thread that her conversations with me somehow always end up being about diet and weight loss? Well, apparently she has the same loathing toward my sister. In sheer disbelief, after their wedding, my grandmother asked my mother why in the world she would willingly drive her daughter to prison to marry a recaptured inmate. My mother answered that my sister "doesn't have a pleasing shape."

Do I need to translate? "She's so fat she can't do any better, so she might as well marry him."

You wouldn't believe how many shades of red I'm seeing. *I* certainly did better than him!

WHY do people persist in thinking fat people can't have good relationships?


nelie
04-09-2010, 11:46 AM
I assume your sister is an adult and make choices for herself. Often fighting against someone's relationship will just back fire and further separate them from you. You have obviously voiced your disapproval with your sister, I'd probably just let it be.

kaplods
04-09-2010, 12:27 PM
I know what you mean about people expecting a fat girl to "settle" for whoever will take her.

Over the years my mom was always badgering me that I had to "hurry up and lose the weight," so I could get married and make grand kids.

In my mid 20's, she began telling me I had to stop being so "picky." I stopped telling her about the guys I was dating, because she'd say some version of "you're not going to find better."

I kept saying "I'd rather be single forever, than be with a man doesn't make my life better."

Finally my mom came around, paroting me (You don't need a man to be happy. Well thanks Ma, I've only been telling you that for almost two decades). Ironically, it wasn't long before I met my now hubby.

I think my family thinks I "settled," because my hubby is a big guy, was a couple years younger, had a slightly lower paying job and hadn't finished college (I have an MA in psych), and he was a little rough around the edges. I knew he was the one when I realized he's the only person I've ever met with an equally evil sense of humor. The truth was he met or exceeded all of the qualities I was looking for (except one, which was almost a deal-breaker. He smoked and I was very allergic. I knew he was a keeper when he quit smoking for me. He's relapsed occasionally, but when he does he'll shower as soon as he gets into the house and brush his teeth).

I know my mom was just wanting "normal" lives for her daughters (she married at 19). My much, much thinner sister is 30, single and my mom is pushing her the same way - even pushing her to lose weight and saying the same "you won't find a guy unless you lose the weight" (she's hippy and could lose a few pounds, but she's a size 12 for goodness sake).

I cringe, because it's the same stuff I heard (but I was mobidly obese, so she at least had a point for me. The last time I was a woman's size 12 was probably 4th or 5th grade).

Parents I think play out their own insecurities, or the role they played with their own mothers, and the stuff just comes right out of their mouth before they realize what it really means.


LovebirdsFlying
04-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Kaplods, you might be right about their own insecurities. My mother is *always* moaning about how fat she is, and she's a size 12/14.

And she once told me she was embarrassed to be seen with me in public, because she was afraid the fact that I have weight issues reflects on her as a mother. People would judge her by my size.

*shakes head*

PS: But my family tends to think I scored big in this relationship, because my hubby is the only man in the family who does not drink excessively, has never even tried drugs, has never been arrested, has had the same steady career for 25 years, owns his home, knows how to manage finances, has never been on public assistance, and has no mental health issues. Yes, that's right, the only man any of our family knows who meets ALL of that description. And I got him.

How? Because I wouldn't stop until I found him. I refused to keep believing I only qualify for creeps, because I'm fat.

lizziep
04-09-2010, 09:37 PM
i can completely understand your fears for your sister as well as your anger toward your mother. and i think both are appropriate!

i am in a similar situation with my sis in law. i just can't believe how it seems she is going out of her way to ruin her life! and wants us to help her. i don't even know where to begin to tell her how i feel much less if i even should. it's a really delicate balance of what you can and can't say to a family member...

guess what it comes down to is once she knows how you feel, not supporting it in any way (i.e. letting her come complain to you about ANYTHING when it comes to him, etc) and at the same time being there for her when she comes to her senses.

Viviane
04-10-2010, 12:58 AM
LovebirdsFlying,
It's great that you recognize how twisted your mother's thinking is. Someday she may realize that her parenting probably did have something to do with your weight issues. I know it doesn't help the relationship now, but that's something she has to come to on her own. A mother who thinks that her daughter's weight should determine their ability to find a quality partner has some seriously questionable priorities. I hope you don't spend much time around that toxic line of thinking. :hug:

And...if you'll allow me to give some unsolicited advice...Unless this man is a physical danger to your sister or her kids, there's not much you can do (if he is, call your local child welfare office at the first sign). Put your energies into building your relationship with your sister so she has a soft place to land when she realizes the mistake she's made, if she ever does.

Good luck with the family drama, I know it's hard. Don't let it prevent you from taking care of you. ;)

LovebirdsFlying
05-06-2010, 07:38 AM
Resurrecting this thread to make a correction and add additional thoughts. Note to mods: Maybe it might be a good idea to change the title of the thread to something like "Can fat women get good husbands?" That's really the direction I was heading down, not so much the emphasis on my sister being married to a...

Well anyway.

Correction: I am NOT the only woman in the family to marry a man who meets all of the criteria that my husband meets. My aunt scored one too. They have been married since 1974. Other than these two, I think that's absolutely it. Even the men blood-related to me tend to be alcoholics or drug users, or have mental health problems, at least minor arrest records, etc.

My aunt is slender, and unlike the majority of the family, always has been. Ironically, the reason for the anomaly is that SHE is the one with the health problems. In plain language, her heart tends to beat too fast, and that keeps her weight down. She is the only woman I can think of on either side of the family who has never been anywhere close to overweight. This aunt is on my mother's side; if my father's side of the family had a reunion and I attended, I would find myself among the slimmest women there. Genetics?

So I'm reasonably certain that my mother thought her younger sister's body had something to do with her getting a good, stable husband, while my mother herself kept landing abusive alcoholic after abusive alcoholic. Her present husband is her eighth, and yes he's an alcoholic, although he doesn't abuse her as others have done. I doubt she loves him. They sleep in separate beds, separate rooms, different floors of the house. My cynicism tells me she stays with him because he has a good pension.

Since 1974 my mother has seen her slim sister in a successful marriage, while her not-fat-but-not-slim self failed repeatedly. I grew up fat, and failed at marriage too. The one I finally succeeded at is my fifth. I suppose this is where my mother got the idea that a woman has to be slim to land a decent husband.

I blew that myth wide open when I married mine. However, this was some time *after* my sister married her husband, so I guess my mother hadn't had a chance to re-think her belief. It hadn't yet been challenged.

Ruthxxx
05-06-2010, 08:24 AM
Done!
We never sleep!

LovebirdsFlying
05-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Done!
We never sleep!

Wow, that was fast! (I don't sleep either. At least when I'm supposed to.)

Jesszika
05-06-2010, 11:15 AM
I dunno.. I would like to believe that fat women, as long as they're "good women" can score a good guy. Love is a mysterious and beautiful thing, and everyone is entitled to it.

nelie
05-06-2010, 11:25 AM
I dunno.. I would like to believe that fat women, as long as they're "good women" can score a good guy. Love is a mysterious and beautiful thing, and everyone is entitled to it.

I think it has more to do with believing in yourself than anything else.

Also, I really wouldn't emphasize husbands because is the goal really to be married? I mean, I am married but I never thought I would be because I didn't want to be married prior to meeting my husband.

also what about those that can't get married legally? I think it is more, can fat women find good partners? The answer is yes.

Wannabeskinny
05-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Being overweight has nothing to do with getting a guy or not. It's all about confidence. A confident woman can get anything she wants because she has belief in herself and respect for herself and ultimately that's what "good men" are attracted to. On the other hand "bad men" prey on women with low-self esteem.

There is something else that's important to understand as well. A person has the right to choose not to be with an obese partner. I've always been plump but when I started piling on the pounds early in our marriage my husband had some real concerns for my health and the health of the children we're trying to conceive. I understand him perfectly, I certainly don't want to pass on obesity to my children.

I don't by any means condone discrimination against overweight people. But when it comes to making a family, a person has the right to choose a partner they want to live a healthy lifestyle with.

Viviane
05-06-2010, 12:58 PM
A person has the right to choose not to be with an obese partner. I've always been plump but when I started piling on the pounds early in our marriage my husband had some real concerns for my health and the health of the children we're trying to conceive. I understand him perfectly, I certainly don't want to pass on obesity to my children.

I don't by any means condone discrimination against overweight people. But when it comes to making a family, a person has the right to choose a partner they want to live a healthy lifestyle with.

I completely agree with you. I would never leave my DH if he became obese, but it would be concerning. And I would be most concerned for our (future) children. I wouldn't want there to be such an increased chance of them losing their daddy too soon. That's why we're working so hard together to be healthy- for me it's 50/50 about weight and health, for him it's totally about health (but, he's never had an issue with weight). We want to be as physically and emotionally healthy as possible before we bring kids into this world.

WarMaiden
05-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Well, one "good man" (handsome, well-employed, smart, college-educated, good dad, faithful) married me when I weighed about 200 pounds in 1991, and another "good man" (handsome, extremely smart, college-educated, awesome dad, hardworking, loyal to the max), married me when I weighed about 240 pounds in 1998. And the fact that my first marriage ended in divorce can be mostly attributed to me, not him.

Since my junior year in high school I have never lacked for male companionship for very long, and I've been at least "overweight" since high school. Sometimes the guys I wanted didn't want me, and sometimes good guys wanted me that I didn't want. Sometimes it just didn't work out, one way or another.

Being a fat woman absolutely does not doom us to being lonely, or having to settle.

Jesszika
05-06-2010, 01:31 PM
I think it has more to do with believing in yourself than anything else.

Also, I really wouldn't emphasize husbands because is the goal really to be married? I mean, I am married but I never thought I would be because I didn't want to be married prior to meeting my husband.

also what about those that can't get married legally? I think it is more, can fat women find good partners? The answer is yes.

:) I agree--good partners is a better way to phrase it.

ennay
05-06-2010, 04:15 PM
My sister is skinny as a pole and is divorcing her 3rd loser. Poor choices has little to do with body shape and more to do with feeling like you arent worth more. In my sister's case she is just a follower and is subject to the strong dominant personalities. She spent several years in a cult. She is finally, in her 50's, starting to learn to care for herself, but like my mother would rather be in a bad relaltionship than be alone.

LovebirdsFlying
05-06-2010, 04:26 PM
:) I agree--good partners is a better way to phrase it.

You're both right, or "good relationships." Mods are at liberty to change it if they want.

Too bad about those who would rather be in a bad relationship than in none at all. That could be where my mother and sister are. (Flashes of that old B.J. Thomas song, "Even a bad love is better than no love..." I disagree. *shakes head.*

Of course, life's goal is not to "get married." On another site, I tossed out a question: Is it more important to be smart, or pretty? The majority feel it is more important to be smart, but there were those who answered "pretty," with one saying, "Being intelligent won't get you a husband." Oh? I can do so many things with that statement. I was in advanced classes, but I got a husband. Not to mention, who says a woman of quality *has* to have a husband? But there are still some who think like that. It's a bit more the case where my family comes from. In parts of Appalachia and the Ozarks, a young girl is still looked at funny if she's not married before she's 18. More so in my generation. I had classmates who dropped out of school as young as 14 to get married, and no they didn't "have to." And in my mother's generation, I've known women who married so young they hadn't begun to menstruate yet. One woman told me she didn't know what was happening when she had her first period, and her husband had to explain it to her.

That stereotype shown on "The Beverly Hillbillies," where they were certain Ellie Mae was destined to be an Old Maid because she didn't marry in her teen years, isn't far off. I myself used to think that the younger a girl got married, the more desirable it proved her to be, and that the women who waited until they were in their 20's and 30's just couldn't find a man any sooner. The very first thought I had after saying "I do" to my first husband (by whom I already had a child) was, "Well! I guess 19 is pretty respectable." I had met my unspoken goal of being married before I was out of my teens, as a woman "worth having" would be. (Not that I feel this way any longer.) And when a neighbor my age, with whom I had a bit of a rivalry, got married at the age of 22, my unvoiced smug thought was, "What took her so long?" It's the way I was conditioned to think.

lizziep
05-06-2010, 09:13 PM
i think about it like this - i'm married. and he didn't marry me for my super model looks, my sveltness, the way i walk into a room and all eyes are on my beautiful body... he married me for me.
how many slender beautiful women know for sure that their man married them for who they are not how they look? ;)

Ciao
05-07-2010, 01:07 AM
Why don't we reverse that question just to get another point of view. Can big guys get tiny girls?

I'm not calling myself stick thin or anything- trust me, I'm not. But I do know my boyfriend is bigger than me.
Regardless of what his size may be, I'll still love him unconditionally. Some things women don't realize is that
men also have that fear about themselves. Will they be judged by women because they're not a Brad Pitt?

Me and my boyfriend are very open about that stuff. I don't think weight is just for a certain sex- it's an issue for everyone. And I think that a womans/mans size may play a certain role and who they can get, but ultimately the people who can see past all the consciousness are the people worth being with anyways.

Shyanara
05-07-2010, 06:35 AM
Oh yes, you can get married for your brains, not your body!
I'm married to a guy who just doesn't care how I look, and loves me and married me totally for my personality.

The last time I was with someone who thought I was too fat was at 18, when I weighed 143lbs, which is my goal weight now. :devil:
After that I promised to develop enough self-respect that I'd never ever go out with someone again who complained about my weight. It worked. And even though my husband is overweight himself (well, he wasn't when we met... maybe it *has* something to do with my love for food and cooking...), I've dated guys with really really nice bodies (among them a semi-professional rugby player) and they all loved me and my totally not slim body. :)

On what jemappellesierra posted: one of my best mates is extremely fat and every girl he's dated was very slim and good-looking. I think it actually makes his male friends wonder what he does to attract them. No, he doesn't have money, either. So yes, big men can get tiny girls. ;)

Wannabeskinny
05-07-2010, 09:40 AM
Oh yes, you can get married for your brains, not your body!
I'm married to a guy who just doesn't care how I look, and loves me and married me totally for my personality.

The last time I was with someone who thought I was too fat was at 18, when I weighed 143lbs, which is my goal weight now. :devil:
After that I promised to develop enough self-respect that I'd never ever go out with someone again who complained about my weight. It worked. And even though my husband is overweight himself (well, he wasn't when we met... maybe it *has* something to do with my love for food and cooking...), I've dated guys with really really nice bodies (among them a semi-professional rugby player) and they all loved me and my totally not slim body. :)

On what jemappellesierra posted: one of my best mates is extremely fat and every girl he's dated was very slim and good-looking. I think it actually makes his male friends wonder what he does to attract them. No, he doesn't have money, either. So yes, big men can get tiny girls. ;)

I'm glad this works for you but for me this would be a recipe for disaster. Why would I want to be with someone who "doesn't care what I look like?" I'm very lucky that my husband doesn't get angry with me and push me around about my weight. But I also appreciate the fact that he notices if I've gained or lost and tries to help me stay on track with my health. As a married couple it is our responsibility to take care of eachother and support eachother. It would not be ok with me if he suddenly decided to gain 100lbs and refused to do anything about it. I'm his wife and I take my responsibility to him very seriously. If we don't help eachother, care about eachother, be honest with eachother, then who will?

nelie
05-07-2010, 11:37 AM
Why don't we reverse that question just to get another point of view. Can big guys get tiny girls?


Umm... I don't think we are talking about tiny guys. If you are talking about a 'good' partner, I think we are talking about overall a partner who is good to us, treats us well and respects us regardless of their own size.

Can an overweight woman or man find a good partner? Yes. I wouldn't define 'good' as skinny though.

ThicknPretty
05-07-2010, 05:04 PM
[QUOTE=Wannabeskinny;3281158]I'm glad this works for you but for me this would be a recipe for disaster. Why would I want to be with someone who "doesn't care what I look like?" QUOTE]

I totally agree with this. I appreciate that my boyfriend now seems okay with my body and accepts me for who I am, but if he let me gain 50 pounds without saying anything...that's exactly what I would do and who wins in that scenario? I need someone who makes me feel accepted but who won't allow me to abuse my body or let myself go completely. I've been in relationships like that before...men who would scoff at my desire to lose weight, who would encourage me to eat more and tell me I deserved to indulge...I gained weight and felt bad and eventually the relationship was over and I was left fatter than I was to begin with. I don't appreciate that.

I also think that it is part of the commitment of marriage or any long term relationship to take care of yourself FOR your partner. That doesn't mean that anyone should kill themselves to lose vanity pounds to please a partner, but you owe it to anyone you love to be healthy and take care of yourself.

LovebirdsFlying
05-07-2010, 09:04 PM
I for one wouldn't want my husband and me nagging each other about our health habits. I'm a bit rebellious, and the one thing that will almost guarantee that I'm going to do something, is to order me not to do it. Tell me I don't need that slice of cake, and I'll probably curse at you and eat it.

What works for us is that I do what I need to do, and he does what he needs to do. We're both losing weight. This morning while getting dressed, Mike discovered he had to put a new hole in his belt, which is getting too big for him. I suggested getting him a new belt; he thinks there are other things we need to spend money on right now. Then again, he'd never have new socks, shoes, or underwear if I didn't buy them for him. He's only too happy to provide whatever *I* need, but his things can be full of holes, and... but that's another subject. (Or maybe it's not. We're looking out for each other, but not nagging at each other's faults.)

Mike and I are both diabetic. What spurred him into action is that his A1C started climbing, while mine is falling. No amount of me telling him to do something will get him to do it, since we're soulmates and he's the same way I am when it comes to being pushed. When he does something, he wants it to be because he decided to do it, not because someone told him he should. When his A1C started climbing, he knew that one, if he didn't rein it in right now, he'd start having to poke needles into himself like I do, and he says he'd do anything to avoid that. Two, his job is at stake. He's a bus driver, and he must be medically cleared. Because he's diabetic, they only certify him for three months rather than for a year, and last time they would only approve him for one month, so he had to get himself together. By his own decision. I could have nagged him into doing what I was already doing, but he would have dug his heels in and resisted, just as I would have done if it were the other way around.

I also see a big difference between being concerned for someone's health, and wanting them to be a certain shape for appearance's sake. I dislike shallow people, and I despise being judged by looks.

"What are you looking for in a man?" "Oh, for one thing, he has to have a cute butt..." "What are you looking for in a woman?" "I like blue-eyed blondes with at least a C-cup..." To me this is appalling! Maybe it's because I'm past childbearing age and don't automatically think "sex" when I think "marriage" or "relationship." Or because to me, looks only matter as far as personal hygiene and grooming goes. And if a person falls flat in that area, that says more about personality than anything else, and it would be the lack of caring about it that repulses me, not the appearance.

Bottom line, if Mike were concerned about what I look like, I wouldn't have married him. I am not a decoration. I am a human being.

kaplods
05-07-2010, 09:39 PM
Most people find that love creates beauty. When you fall in love with someone, or even just like a person, they become more attractive to you. Even (Physical) ugliness disappears when you get to know and like a person.

Soul-deep ugliness does the reverse. When you dislike a person because they have been cruel or selfish, they seem less physically attractive. To the point that a person who resembles an unpleasant person in your life can even seem unattractive to you.

For most folks, it's difficult to like someone and consider them ugly. Just as it's difficult to dislike someone and see them as beautiful.

A pretty face can open doors, but only inner beauty keeps those doors open. I've known very attractive people with few friends and no long-lasting romances because they didn't understand how to maintain relationships. It was so easy to make friends and attract romantic attention, they never really understood what it took to keep them.

It's also amazing how much confidence comes across as beauty. My husband brags to his friends that I'm the most beautiful woman he's ever been with - and I've seen photos of the women he's dated and a stranger would look at those photos and put me close to dead last. But hubby has also always said that he doesn't understand what I see in him (and on paper, my life looks a little better. When we met I had a slightly better paying job, with a lot more social prestige, I had more college education. I had a nicer car... all the things shallower people are looking for).

I think many people fail at relationships because they're choosing based on criteria other than the ones they really want. They may be choosing on shallow criteria, while they secretly want deep. They're hoping to find the person who has depth, while meeting all the shallow criteria. Finding an intelligent, caring, witty, fun person is hard enough -- trying to find intelligent, caring, witty, fun, rich and gorgeous who wants what you have to offer (especially if you don't have as much to offer in each of those areas)... well, good luck with that.

Wannabeskinny
05-08-2010, 09:08 AM
... I dislike shallow people, and I despise being judged by looks.

"What are you looking for in a man?" "Oh, for one thing, he has to have a cute butt..." "What are you looking for in a woman?" "I like blue-eyed blondes with at least a C-cup..." To me this is appalling! Maybe it's because I'm past childbearing age and don't automatically think "sex" when I think "marriage" or "relationship." Or because to me, looks only matter as far as personal hygiene and grooming goes. And if a person falls flat in that area, that says more about personality than anything else, and it would be the lack of caring about it that repulses me, not the appearance.

Bottom line, if Mike were concerned about what I look like, I wouldn't have married him. I am not a decoration. I am a human being.

The truth is that at certain stages of our lives looks matter more than other times. The younger you are the more they seem to matter, especially for when finding a mate. Biologically we are hardwired to choose a mate that we can procreate with. It is in our genetic make up to choose a healthy attractive partner. You can't get around this with arguments.

It's like Ruby and her ex-boyfriend (anyone watch that show?) He loves Ruby but he can't be with her. He wants to be with someone who is healthy, independent, and can bare children. I know she wants to find someone who will love her for who she is but let's face it... who she is is someone who is completely dependent on other people to do things for her, and can't bare children at the moment.

For the record, I am a decoration. I'm a lot of other things too, I'm a wife, I'm a great cook, I take great care of our house, I'm very supportive of my husband, I have a wonderful career, I am a good listener, I like being active, I have a great sense of direction... the list could go on. I definitely want to look good for my husband. He's very fit and healthy and I'm very proud to take him out and show him off to my friends and he feels the same about me. Just the other day he came home from work and told me that one of his co-workers asked him how "a schmuck like him got a beautiful wife like me." It only takes a little effort to care about what you look like. If I've spent a few too many days in a row lounging around in my sweat pants then who's going to snap me out of the funk? My husband will grab me, throw me into the closet, tell me to get prettied up and then take me out for a fabulous evening. :carrot:

Ciao
05-08-2010, 02:07 PM
Umm... I don't think we are talking about tiny guys. If you are talking about a 'good' partner, I think we are talking about overall a partner who is good to us, treats us well and respects us regardless of their own size.

Can an overweight woman or man find a good partner? Yes. I wouldn't define 'good' as skinny though.

I fully understand that. I wasn't referring to the title.

Below is what I was referring to. :)

Do I need to translate? "She's so fat she can't do any better, so she might as well marry him."
...
WHY do people persist in thinking fat people can't have good relationships?

CrystalZ10
05-08-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm glad this works for you but for me this would be a recipe for disaster. Why would I want to be with someone who "doesn't care what I look like?" I'm very lucky that my husband doesn't get angry with me and push me around about my weight. But I also appreciate the fact that he notices if I've gained or lost and tries to help me stay on track with my health. As a married couple it is our responsibility to take care of eachother and support eachother. It would not be ok with me if he suddenly decided to gain 100lbs and refused to do anything about it. I'm his wife and I take my responsibility to him very seriously. If we don't help eachother, care about eachother, be honest with eachother, then who will?

I guess this is where a lot of us differ. I am a grown a** woman. I do NOT need or want my husband telling me I've gained weight, and he wouldn't want me doing that to him either. I am perfectly able to see when I've gained weight. I can tell when my clothes don't fit right. If my huband was to nag me or say something, I wouldn't feel motivated, I'd feel hurt. Same goes for him.
Instead, if one of us is feeling like we need to lose weight, and voice it, the other doesn't agree, or try and disagree. Instead we remind the other that we love them no matter what, and we'll support each other no matter what we decide to do.
When this happens, I feel motivated to do something good for myself. :hug:

kaplods
05-08-2010, 02:56 PM
No one "decides to gain 100 lbs and refuses to do anything about it." Anyone who thinks so doesn't understand weight gain very well. And I can understand why someone who hasn't experienced it wouldn't understand it, but it makes it no less true.

I've never met a person over 100 lbs overweight who is doing nothing about it. Their efforts may not be effective, but they're trying a lot harder than the credit they're receiving for it (which is usually none unless the weight loss is fast and dramatic). Effort doesn't count for anything in weight loss. If you're trying and failing, people will accuse you of "choosing to be fat," and "refusing to do anything about it," when the truth may be you haven't yet found the right tools to succeed. It doesn't mean you "want" to be fat or that you're "not trying." Weight loss can be complicated and it can take years to get it right (or in my case decades). If effort counted for everything, I would have lost all the weight I needed to in first grade. I was failing because the methods I was choosing to lose weight only made me hungrier and more food obsessed.

Hugely fat people like myself and my husband didn't decide to gain 200 lbs on a whim. And we've never refused help (even though many people's idea of help only hurt and harmed). We've continued to struggle with our weight, trying to find a way to lose weight and still have some semblance of a real life. Our "crime" according to many people is feeling we had a right to a life at all while fat. Some people make it very clear that we're supposed to have nothing good in our life until we lose all of the weight. And if having nothing good makes us feel that only food is our friend, well that's our fault too.

I've never found criticism of my obesity helpful. I've been trying to get my weight under control all of my life, and it wasn't the people who told me I was fat and lazy that helped me. It was the people who knew I was trying and supported my decisions whether they agreed with them or not.

My husband and I don't have to tell each other we're fat. We know it. We've known it every moment of our fatness. He since he was in late high school. Me since I was 5 years old. It never leaves our minds, so we don't have to poke that painful spot on each other. We do it to ourselves often enough.

ennay
05-08-2010, 04:53 PM
I guess this is where a lot of us differ. I am a grown a** woman. I do NOT need or want my husband telling me I've gained weight, and he wouldn't want me doing that to him either. I am perfectly able to see when I've gained weight. I can tell when my clothes don't fit right. If my huband was to nag me or say something, I wouldn't feel motivated, I'd feel hurt. Same goes for him.
Instead we remind the other that we love them no matter what, and we'll support each other no matter what we decide to do.
When this happens, I feel motivated to do something good for myself. :hug:

On the other hand, and I was just thinking about this today. When we lose weight and look good most people on the forum want people to NOTICE. I think this leads to one of those catch-22's. dh better not say a word if I gain weight because he is supposed to love me (he does) and be attracted to me (usually) no matter what. But dangit if I put all this work into obtaining a hot body I want him to appreciate it! Without of course implying that if I am unable to maintain it there would be any form of disappointment on his part. :dizzy: Which is why smart men just shut up and then we are pissed that they dont notice!

ennay
05-08-2010, 04:55 PM
No one "decides to gain 100 lbs and refuses to do anything about it."

I've never met a person over 100 lbs overweight who is doing nothing about it.

I agree with the first statement. I dont think anyone DECIDES to gain 100 lbs.

But I dont necessarily agree with the second. I know people who have given up. I did for a while. What was the point, I was just making myself more miserable. I did nothing for a long time.

CrystalZ10
05-08-2010, 06:02 PM
On the other hand, and I was just thinking about this today. When we lose weight and look good most people on the forum want people to NOTICE. I think this leads to one of those catch-22's. dh better not say a word if I gain weight because he is supposed to love me (he does) and be attracted to me (usually) no matter what. But dangit if I put all this work into obtaining a hot body I want him to appreciate it! Without of course implying that if I am unable to maintain it there would be any form of disappointment on his part. :dizzy: Which is why smart men just shut up and then we are pissed that they dont notice!

They can't win with us can they? :lol: My hubby seems to understand a bit of how a woman works. Noticing weight gain=bad. Noticing weight loss=good. Of course I'm smart, (or nice), enough not to ask if an outfit makes my tummy or butt look big. :lol:

nelie
05-08-2010, 06:10 PM
I fully understand that. I wasn't referring to the title.

Below is what I was referring to. :)

Do I need to translate? "She's so fat she can't do any better, so she might as well marry him."
...
WHY do people persist in thinking fat people can't have good relationships?

The original question was about a guy in prison. We don't know if he is fat, skinny, etc. It was the fact that he was convicted and in prison that made her good enough for him.

kaplods
05-08-2010, 08:50 PM
I agree with the first statement. I dont think anyone DECIDES to gain 100 lbs.

But I dont necessarily agree with the second. I know people who have given up. I did for a while. What was the point, I was just making myself more miserable. I did nothing for a long time.


Yes, but giving up is not the same as "refusing to do anything about it." If you give up because you don't have hope because you've only failed before, or if you refuse to diet because dieting in your experience only makes you fatter - neither of those things are "refusing to do anything about it."

Not knowing what to do is a lot different than "refusing to do anything about it" which implies that you know how to change, you just don't want to.


I gave up dieting for several years, because in my experience dieting only caused me to gain more weight. I was refusing to diet, but I was NOT "refusing to do anything about my weight."


Refusing to diet was my way to do something about my weight. I was refusing to GAIN weight by refusing to diet. And it worked better than I expected - if only I had found "refusing to diet" as an option when I was 5 and only 8 lbs overweight than when I was in my late 30's and more than 200 lbs overweight.

There's still this mythos that losing weight is easy and anyone who is so much as a pound overweight is "choosing" to be and "not trying." I put more effort (100 fold, in fact) into weight loss than I did anything else in my life (all sorts of things that I succeeded at).

I graduated highschool and college early. I always worked two jobs (or a job and classes, sometimes two jobs and classes). I graduated high school, college, and graduate school with honors. I excelled in my jobs. I wrote and published fiction. I helped write a documentary on juvenile detention. And in comparison to everything I accomplished in life - every single one, all combined together, I didn't put in as much work as I have to lose weight.

Trying to lose weight has taken more time, more effort, more thought, more sleepless nights than every other acheivement combined. I'm only now succeeding by a FLUKE, a complete ACCIDENT I stumbled upon when I found that the only a diet that's worked well for me is one that "everyone knows is unhealthy" (low-carb).

Losing weight is a different battle for everyone who takes it on, but it can be the biggest battle of your life. It can be the hardest thing you will ever do. I think more often than not, it is the hardest thing a person can accomplish, but it gets so little respect because it's seen as so easy that anyone who isn't doing it, must like it that way.

LovebirdsFlying
05-09-2010, 04:38 PM
On the other hand, and I was just thinking about this today. When we lose weight and look good most people on the forum want people to NOTICE. I think this leads to one of those catch-22's. dh better not say a word if I gain weight because he is supposed to love me (he does) and be attracted to me (usually) no matter what. But dangit if I put all this work into obtaining a hot body I want him to notice it!

I see what you're saying, about wanting your hard work acknowledged. I understand you there, but I gotta respond to the "obtaining a hot body."

I think it comes down to this: Nothing p!$$es me off faster than someone saying "fat-and-ugly" like it's all one word. I, for one, don't think a person of any size necessarily needs to lose weight in order to be beautiful, sexy, or "hot." This is also where I have trouble with the "we're programmed genetically to look for attractive partners" argument. Who says a big person is automatically unattractive? I've known some gorgeous fat people, and some butt-ugly skinny ones.

So my reason for healthy eating and exercise, and even for considering WLS, is not to "obtain a hot body." My husband would say I already have one; I don't need to "obtain" it. My goal is to improve my health. I am diabetic, and incidentally I just got home from the hospital where I was observed last night for chest pains. More tests to come, although we're pretty certain my heart isn't involved.

The truth is that at certain stages of our lives looks matter more than other times. The younger you are the more they seem to matter, especially for when finding a mate.

If that's true, then it could be a matter of maturity, since as we become older and wiser, we realize that physically beautiful people aren't necessarily better partners than the ones who are less blessed in that area.

It's like Ruby and her ex-boyfriend (anyone watch that show?) He loves Ruby but he can't be with her. He wants to be with someone who is healthy, independent, and can bare children. I know she wants to find someone who will love her for who she is but let's face it... who she is is someone who is completely dependent on other people to do things for her, and can't bare children at the moment.

I can totally see a man not wanting a woman who is dependent, and I can somewhat see a man not wanting a woman who can't have his children. I missed that episode, and I don't know exactly what Denny said to Ruby, but if her *looks alone* were any concern, I'd say she's well rid of him. If ever a man told me I'd need to lose weight for the sake of looks alone before he would be interested in me, I'd tell him to hit the road. Any man who can't handle me at my worst, doesn't deserve me at my best, and--important--I will not change anything about myself solely to please a man. Never have, never will.

Yet, as "fat-and-ugly" as I've always been--me, the one who supposedly should be weeded out because people are genetically programmed to look for "attractive" partners--I am the mother of three daughters, and am now a grandmother. Apparently I am attractive enough to be selected to pass my genes along. Which means either that genetic programming to weed out ugly people is a crock, or that body size ain't got squat to do with whether or not someone is attractive.

For the record, I am a decoration.

I repeat, I am not, nor will I be treated like one. Decorations are objects. Decorations are possessions. Decorations have no feelings and merit no respect.

My husband will grab me, throw me into the closet, tell me to get prettied up and then take me out for a fabulous evening.

I'm not gonna get in your marriage, but if it were mine--yecch. I would expect my husband to *ask* me if I want to go out for a fabulous evening, and trust me to have the sense to get ready for it. If he were to "grab" me, "throw" me into the closet, and "tell" me to do anything, I'd have a few choice words for him, at the very least.

The original question was about a guy in prison. We don't know if he is fat, skinny, etc. It was the fact that he was convicted and in prison that made her good enough for him. Would you believe I don't know what he looks like? He is my brother-in-law, but I've never met him face to face. My sister knew I'd pick up the phone, since I wasn't going to help him hide and risk becoming an accessory, so she never told me where she was when they were on the run together. I wouldn't know the man if I saw him on the street; didn't even know his real name until he was back in prison.

And I think Nelie and I are in total agreement about the spirit of the question. It is not, can fat people get skinny partners. It is, can fat people get GOOD partners. Nelie, if you want, you or any other mod can make this "can fat people get quality partners," hoping this will clear up any confusion.

LovebirdsFlying
05-09-2010, 05:33 PM
They can't win with us can they? :lol: My hubby seems to understand a bit of how a woman works. Noticing weight gain=bad. Noticing weight loss=good. Of course I'm smart, (or nice), enough not to ask if an outfit makes my tummy or butt look big. :lol:

I missed this in my previous post. Cute. Cute. Cute.

I might ask how I look in a certain outfit, but when I do, I am seeking honest opinion, not fishing for compliments. If my man tells me a dress is less than flattering, I'm not going to get mad at him. I wouldn't have a right to get mad at anyone for giving an honest opinion, when I asked for one.

Ookpik
05-09-2010, 06:34 PM
I agree with a lot of what LovesBirdsFlying says. "Fat-and-ugly" is a term I've heard often, not so much now but a lot when I was younger. Usually it was my friends saying this, and finally I got so fed up and said, "look, I'm fat, do you think I'm ugly too?" Of course, they got all sheepish and replied "no". There are a lot of beautiful, big people, and a lot of people who are proof that being thin does not necessarily equal being physically attractive. In my experience, people that are critical of my looks usually fall into this category...I usually get along better with people society would typically call attractive. I know psychologists have studied this, that attractive people are attributed to be friendlier, but I find that (in my case) that is often true. Usually the people who criticize the way I look seem to have not heard tell of those things we call "mirrors".

ThicknPretty
05-10-2010, 03:30 PM
I just wanted to chime back in…there have been numerous studies done that indicate that we are actually biologically inclined to be attracted to certain body types and physical features. It’s a fact. I can’t remember all the specifics, but I remember I believe that men are more likely to be attracted to women with fair hair because it’s a sign somehow of fertility and youth. There are also certain body measurements that are more “attractive” from a biological standpoint. The fact is, we’re much like animals…and we are going to be drawn to those who appear the most fertile, those who have strong and healthy characteristics. Obesity does not signal fertility, sorry. I think this is what WannaBeSkinny was referring to…not that we are biologically inclined to be attracted to someone thinner or with a certain body type because it just LOOKS better, but because of the things that it signifies.

On the other side of that, humans are emotional and develop relationships for lots of different reasons. And our attractions can evolve from something physical to something emotional or vice versa. And we are also all wired differently. Sometimes we are attracted to people who are, by societies standards, “ugly” and can’t figure it out. We are a mystery. I’ve been attracted to plenty of guys that other people thought were gross and I’m actually not all that into the pretty boy celebrities that everyone else fawns over…Tom Cruise is yuck for me.

GlamourGirl827
05-10-2010, 04:36 PM
Great thread!!

So I'm going to throw in 2 cents here, by telling a story.
My cousin is obese. I don't know her exact weight but she is ultimately convinced that her weight is THE reason she "ended up" with a crumby husband. Point blank he does not treat her well, she is unhappy, they fight most of the time, and he is mentally and likely in time will become physically abusive. She has been taught by her mom, that looks are all a woman has to offer in this word. Not education, not sense of humor, nothing. That we are measured by our looks. My cousin will not leave the house without doing her hair, make up and wearing only brand name clothes from head to toe. She believes the world (and men) only care what she looks like. She "knows" because she attends to everything else about her looks that it is her weight that stopped her from finding a "good" guy...

What my cousin just does not see is the kind of person she is. She is sadly, the most selfish, shallow, self centered person I have ever known. I'm just gonig to leave it at that, because to devulge what a horrible person she is, is not needed. But before she met her now husband, I invited a guy friend of mine to meet her. After the evening was over, he NEVER wanted to see her again let alone date her. My cousin was again convinced it was her weight and thought my guy friend was shallow, but he was very celar about the fact that she was an "ugly" person, as in her personality, not her looks. Actually he said her looks are the farthest thing from what she's being noticed for because who she is, is just so unbelievable a turn off. He said even if she had the perfect body, no decent guy would marry her. And you know what, he was right.
I don't think I can post links here, so if you go to you tube and look up "fat rant" I think that video makes some good points about using weight as an excuse to not improve in other areas of who we are. I don't think everyone is guilt of that, but my cousin is. And its really a sad thing to see.
Ok, just my thoughts on this. :)

bec1989
05-10-2010, 05:08 PM
ive sat and read this thread start to finish and i must say a very interesting read and very interesting views that i cant disagree on any of them. i agree in saying its a catch 22 situation. i have one of those boyfriends that before i lost 23lb told me i was as beautiful as i am now, however at times if i asked him if he thought i was fat would skip around the situation until it left me frustrated demanding an answer to which he'd reply "well your not skinny sweetheart but i think your beautiful and i love you all the same". Now personally this used to kill me but motivated me to do something. If he had just not been bothered all the time i probably wouldnt have realised how much weight i had put on.
I must stress at this point in no way shape or form has my boyfriend said i want you to be this size, but his replies mixed in with things such as my clothes getting tight, bmi as overweight etc spurred me to do something and nothing feels better at the moment than people saying "wow you look like you've lost some weight" so as much as i appreciate what people are saying without the motivation of people noticing i wouldnt have got to where i am now. I completely agree you cant love someone purely because of how they look and by no means am i saying overweight people deserve bad relationships but simply saying people arent blind, and to me that helps.

carol2208
05-11-2010, 05:49 AM
From personal experience, most of the time it´s a lot more about how we feel, than what we look like. I have a friend who isn´t by all means hot, according to the general standards, she isn´t pretty either, but when she walks into a bar she gets more male attention than any of our hot or pretty friends, and that´s because she feels like the most beautiful woman in the room, she is secure about her looks and who she is. She is confident.

It also has happened to me more than once, where I would attract more attention when I was feeling better about myself, without really implying any changes to my body or looks. I remember once, I went out dacing with 3 co-workers, one of them was this very attractive, intelligent, 33 year-old Greek. That night I was feeling great about myself, and we ended it up hooking up, on the way home, he made a couple comments alluding to how he found fat woman unattractive(not in an offensive way, like I would say I don´t find really skinny men attractive), and I said "heellooo, look at me, I´m fat..." and he replied, no you´re not, you´re very sexy. So my point is, imho, usually what people notice on a first glimpse is the image you project based on how you feel, than rather what you look like.

And for me, I have never felt good about myself when I was over 100lbs overweight, and there are outliers, as even at my highest and feeling horrible, I had a wonderful man see things in me that I didn´t. But for me, generally speaking it doesn´t always have to do with looks... specially because, thank God, beauty is subjective.

Wannabeskinny
05-11-2010, 09:56 AM
I just wanted to chime back in…there have been numerous studies done that indicate that we are actually biologically inclined to be attracted to certain body types and physical features. It’s a fact. I can’t remember all the specifics, but I remember I believe that men are more likely to be attracted to women with fair hair because it’s a sign somehow of fertility and youth. There are also certain body measurements that are more “attractive” from a biological standpoint. The fact is, we’re much like animals…and we are going to be drawn to those who appear the most fertile, those who have strong and healthy characteristics. Obesity does not signal fertility, sorry. I think this is what WannaBeSkinny was referring to…not that we are biologically inclined to be attracted to someone thinner or with a certain body type because it just LOOKS better, but because of the things that it signifies.
.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. We are driven by a biological need to find a mate and procreate. The way a person looks reflects on their fertility. Men are programmed to "spread their seed" and therefore are notoriously known for dating younger girls, skinny girls, pretty girls. It's not that they're being shallow, although some of them are, but rather there is a scientific logic behind all this.

mandalinn82
05-12-2010, 01:31 AM
Obviously biological patterns do play a role in initial attraction. That "initial spark" is driven a lot by biology and brain wiring, and that tends to look at Waist-to-Hip ratio (not skinnyness, but body shape), youthfulness (tends to suggest fertility), clear skin, and other markers of fertility.

With that said, this thread was about getting "good husbands", and there is one heck of a lot more that goes into building a marriage than that initial biological impulse. And "pretty" is a vague term that EVERYONE defines differently...plus even these biological responses are averages, not universal. There is no "universal" pretty that everyone agrees on. There IS, however, a set of visual markers that tend to be associated with fertility (Waist to hip, skin, youth) that the "statistical average man" will be more attracted to. I think that's the point Wannabeskinny was making.

However, with PCOS, I'm not going to have most of those signs (mostly because my hormones are off, and, guess what, that affects fertility...this stuff did evolve for a reason). That doesn't mean I'm not pretty. My wife finds me gorgeous, and I get hit on in bars when I go out. It's just an average that biologically, the "average" man is triggered for attraction by because that average is an easy way to confirm a woman is likely fertile, and therefore more likely to support evolutionary imperative.

LovebirdsFlying
05-12-2010, 01:46 AM
Thank you Amanda. I'll just say that I may not be "young and skinny," but that doesn't mean I'm not pretty, and my fat ugly self did manage to find a good husband.

And procreate. Even though I wasn't skinny when I was young either. Obviously *someone* found me attractive enough.

That said, I'm closing this thread.