General chatter - MEAT vs. CARROTS




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EZMONEY
11-02-2009, 09:46 PM
I know sometimes we have gotten a bit heated over issues concerning eating meat and veggies...

let's not do that here...ok....:hug:

I believe in moderation....

unless it concerns beer...cheese...chips and love for family...friends...golden retrievers and 3FC gals!

You all know that.....

I am against cruelty to animals in any way shape or form....

I also believe from my entire heart God gave us animals for food....

I belive there has been much abuse in these issues...

My sister has breast cancer, many of you know this and thank you all FOREVER for your prayers :hug:

Her daughters want to start eating better...which by coincidence Angie and I have been discussing becoming more "vegetarian"...and less meat eaters...

I will discuss further if this thread grows....


What I would like to know is your experience or thoughts on becoming vegetarian...eating or not eating meat...

basically just eating better...I think we can do this with meat...

what do you think?

Share with me here gals...


VernDern
11-03-2009, 04:20 AM
I love meat...I crave it. Although with that being said sometimes when I eat it, it makes me sick. I hate seeing veins, the bones, and chowing down on it brings me back to the reality that an animal was killed and Im eating it and it quite frankly grosses me out. So I dont eat wings or chicken with bones, etc.

Its a weird love/hate situation however I dont think I would ever be able to go without having it. You can definitely live a very healthy diet with meat...like you, I think it was put here for us and provides us with many nutrients we need. Although you can be vegetarian and substitute those nutrients I dont think you get quite the same "quality". Its just in my opinion though....Im no expert, nor have I really looked at what being a vegetarian takes so its just me rambling.

I would easily be able to limit my meat intake though without completely cutting it out so perhaps I'll have to start working on that. I love animals so its kinda sad that I eat them. Its a tough subject...it'll be interesting to see a couple points of view!

MindiV
11-03-2009, 09:25 AM
I don't think we could ever go completely vegetarian. Ever. Nothing wrong with it, but it's just not in the cards for my husband and I.

We are trying to cut back on consumption of red meat, though. When we first got together and I started cooking dinner 5 nights a week, we'd have ground beef probably at least 4 of the five nights, then go out to eat on weekends and likely have more.

These days, MAYBE once a week we'll have beef. The rest of the time it's chicken or pork, or even meatless meals like soups or salads. We're having beef tonight, but it's the first time since last Wednesday for my husband...and longer than that for me (he cooked a steak at home last week...I'm not a steak fan so I did something different).

As for feeling bad when I eat chicken or pork or beef or fish...I just...don't. Maybe that makes me a bad person...

My husband's take on eating beef, in particular, comes from the fact that raising cattle for human consumption is what kept his grandma and grandpa clothed, fed and in a home for many, many years. They raise meat to eat, so we should eat it, in his mind. The only thing he feels badly about and refuses to eat is veal...he knows where it comes from, etc., first-hand, and won't touch the stuff...


Serendipity
11-03-2009, 10:57 AM
I'm an animal lover too, but I also eat meat. If your family wants to keep meat as an option, I would suggest going free-range and organic -- it's a lot more expensive (at least here, dunno if it's everywhere), and at least the animals don't suffer as much in their life and death as mass-produced, mass-fed, mass-killed beasties. I know that some people would say it doesn't matter because they're dying anyway, but I think quality of life does count for something in the great scheme of things. I also think avoiding excessively hormone-fed and antibiotic-supplemented meat is a good idea for general health.

I don't think it ever hurts us, really, to eat more vegetables and grains, but I'll be honest. I like my meat too.

4myloves
11-03-2009, 11:28 AM
I also think avoiding excessively hormone-fed and antibiotic-supplemented meat is a good idea for general health.

SO totally agree with this statement. Haven't studies been done that show that the rapid maturation of kids these days is somehow related to all the hormones ingested from various foods, especially chicken? (Or did I just get that from an episode of House? :dizzy:)

MindiV
11-03-2009, 11:29 AM
Organic is high around here, too, serendipity....we're talking $8 a pound for chicken that's free-range...

BellaLucia
11-03-2009, 11:35 AM
I love love meat but I realize that I need to eat more veggies. Kill or be killed, is my saying. I know that stands harsh but hey .......

nelie
11-03-2009, 11:37 AM
Well as far as 'free-range' goes, that just really means they aren't in cages. They are usually cramped indoors and never see sun light or touch grass but that is definitely better than the cages. I looked into pasture raised chicken eggs for my dogs because I have some difficulty with one of my dogs. When I did, I was shocked how even pasture raised can mean a bunch of chickens in a fairly small shared cage but they have grass under their feet instead of concrete. The pasture raised chicken eggs I buy for my dogs is from a farm not too far from me and the chickens do have a fair amount of space.

I think there is a lot of good information out there and I have to say that I went vegan for health reasons. I read about cancer rates, diabetes, heart disease, etc. From reading all that, I think dairy is actually one of the worst things you can eat. In terms of animal treatment, dairy is also one of the worst industries in how animals are treated. Eggs are probably the best in terms of animal products and health and you can find farms moving towards more humane treatment of egg laying chickens.

I initially started going toward vegetarianism because as I started to eat better, I started to lose my taste for meat. It was such a strange thing because I used to love meat. I then read The China Study and other information about vegetarian/vegan diets. I think Eat to Live is a good book to read and it gives recommendations on what animal products to eat if you are going to eat them.

Anyway, I was headed down the path of being a very cheesy vegetarian and with no thoughts of being vegan but I was convinced dairy wasn't healthy and gave it up and meat and eggs all in the same day. I even had steak the night before as I really didn't think the change would happen so quickly for me. I did have a couple relapses, specifically when I went out of the country on an already planned trip. I just didn't feel good and the foods didn't taste good to me anymore.

I have to say I love the food I eat now. I cook a lot more and enjoy cooking a lot more. It is funny when I pull out my lunch and want to clap because I'm so excited (uhh yes, I'm strange).

Lastly I will say this as I know it is a touchy subject and it is hard for me to tell people this. If you have cancer or are at risk of cancer, there have been people who have successfully fought cancer. There are also some amazing stories I've read about people who had cancer, went vegan and miraculously recovered. I take stories with a bit of a grain of salt because I've never known anyone personally but I think it is possible if you are feeding your body 'bad stuff', then your body can't heal yourself. If you are eating lots and lots of veggies, whole grains, legumes and fruit, then I think it can fight diseases.

Oh and I highly recommend a visit to Sipz on Clairmont Mesa Blvd :)

misskimothy
11-03-2009, 11:50 AM
I think the early maturation of our kids is due to a high fat diet and high body weight, rather than the hormones in the food itself. http://www.everydayhealth.com/specialists/woman/etingin/qa/is-early-menstruation-inherited/index.aspx

I don't think that protien in the form of animal protein is bad for you or prevents you from recovering from cancer. Animal protein is not under the category of "bad stuff" because it is animal protein. If you get humanely raised, grain or free-range, hormone and antibiotic free animal protein, it is not a bad food nor does it prevent anyone from healing from anything. It can actually HELP you heal from surgeries, help you replace blood cells, help you maintain your health.

Animal protein is one source of protein. There are others. What you choose comes down to what you choose to believe, but to suggest that you won't recover from cancer if you aren't vegan or that you won't heal yourself if you eat meat is in my humble opinion alarmist and just a bit offensive. It puts the "blame" for not recovering from disease on the sufferer when in reality sometimes people just recover from diseases or they don't. I'd hate to have a cancer sufferer read the post above and feel that he/she is to "blame" for their lack of response to a course of treatment. Sorry to have read this in the post above, and sorry if my response sounds harsh.

Sakai
11-03-2009, 11:50 AM
I love meat...chicken, beef, seafood, veal, lamb, duck...ect..I love chewing on chicken bones and eating beef marrow and various organ "meats" (being raised in a Mexican family will do that to a person lol" The only meat I'm not fond of is pork. Pork leave me feeling like i have grease all over my face for some reason. bacon, porkchops...ribs...if it's pork it leave a oily feeling on my skin and in my stomach...maybe I'm just weird.
I have gone vegetarian for various amounts of time. I think 3 weeks was the longest I ever went. i do it for health reasons, I always feel better and ultimately I lose a good bit of weight by cutting out animal products. But I have to eat like 5 pounds of veggies and fruits to make my calories. (that's like 2 heads of lettuce minimum every day not counting the other veggies and the fruit. ) Personally I don't have time or the jaw strength to munch that many calories in veggies. So I cheat and add avocado to my meals. (because I can only take so much beans and tofu.)
I also love milk and eggs and I can't seem to kick the habit even when I go through a "No animal products." time. I've tried that Silk...the soymilk. My father loves it to death but personally I can't stomach the stuff.

I think everyone should try going without meat for a while. it forced me to stretch my creativity in preparing meals. But I could never go permanently vegetarian.

iriswhispers
11-03-2009, 11:55 AM
I was veg for a couple of years - honestly I felt GREAT for most of it. Living at my parents' house for a summer is what brought me back to being an omnivore. My dad is a strong believer of "all things in moderation" and I was having some issues with anemia.

I definitely second what Sakai said about stretching creativity in meal prep - I have tons of recipes from my veg days and I still cook without meat a lot. I tried many things I wouldn't have considered when growing up because we were a "meat and potatoes" family, so I loved learning what kinds of healthy and delicious things can also be made without meat!

nelie
11-03-2009, 12:12 PM
I don't think that protien in the form of animal protein is bad for you or prevents you from recovering from cancer. Animal protein is not under the category of "bad stuff" because it is animal protein. If you get humanely raised, grain or free-range, hormone and antibiotic free animal protein, it is not a bad food nor does it prevent anyone from healing from anything. It can actually HELP you heal from surgeries, help you replace blood cells, help you maintain your health.

Animal protein is one source of protein. There are others. What you choose comes down to what you choose to believe, but to suggest that you won't recover from cancer if you aren't vegan or that you won't heal yourself if you eat meat is in my humble opinion alarmist and just a bit offensive. It puts the "blame" for not recovering from disease on the sufferer when in reality sometimes people just recover from diseases or they don't. I'd hate to have a cancer sufferer read the post above and feel that he/she is to "blame" for their lack of response to a course of treatment. Sorry to have read this in the post above, and sorry if my response sounds harsh.

Misskimothy - I think you misunderstood me or took my comments to the extreme. I do think excess animal protein (and really it is a mix of things including the hormones and everything else that comes with it) can be bad for your body. I also think you can follow a vegan diet and eat 'bad stuff' that can stop your body from healing. A vegan diet doesn't necessarily mean healthy but I do believe a whole foods vegan diet is healthy. I also didn't say someone wouldn't recover from cancer if they didn't eat a vegan diet.

When I said that I know there have been people who have successfully fought cancer, that is both on the meat eater side and vegan side. I didn't make a distinction because you can't. I also didn't say 'eating animal protein means you won't recover from disease' but I do truly believe that if you eat lots of whole grains, legumes, veggies and fruit, your body can fight disease. From what we are barely learning about antioxidants and phytonutrients and everything else, I think having a diet heavy in those products will only help you. Whether you eat animal products as part of that is up to you.

I think it is important information to share though that societies who lean heavily towards veganism have extremely low rates of cancer. why is that? we don't know exactly. Although there have been studies that animal protein can 'feed' cancer, especially in excess. We also know that things that exist only in vegetables and fruit can help fight diseases.

misskimothy
11-03-2009, 12:21 PM
Nelie, I don't think so. When you state:

I think it is possible if you are feeding your body 'bad stuff', then your body can't heal yourself. If you are eating lots and lots of veggies, whole grains, legumes and fruit, then I think it can fight diseases.

the implication is clear. Sorry but I also think that you get this reaction alot when you say stuff like this because of your comment:

Lastly I will say this as I know it is a touchy subject and it is hard for me to tell people this.

It seems pretty clear about the implications you are making and I think you are aware of how what you say may be taken due to the phrase above. I have many people close to me who have cancer or who have recovered from cancer. They are people who need compassion and love and being led to believe that if they feed their bodies the "good stuff" of which animal protein doesn't make the cut they will heal themselves doesn't add to their recovery process. They go through alot of self-blame as it is -- do I have cancer because of where I live? Maybe it was the water because I didn't drink the bottled stuff. Maybe I ate too much X. Maybe it is my fault.
So to read your statements is understandably a bit distressing for those of us who have loved ones who suffer.
As for cancer rates -- well, just be aware that in China it is a social taboo for a woman to have breast cancer. As a result, women won't seek care for the condition, and families won't report deaths related to breast cancer. The statistics as a result show a "lower rate of breast cancer" but this is a lower REPORTED rate, not a lower disease incidence rant. Two completely different things, with two completely different interpretations. For years, the one conclusion has been "wow, they don't eat meat and rely on soy and their cancer rates are low. Vegetarianism is GOOD and this proves it." The newer interpretation is "We believe cancer rates are the same, but societal taboos prevent diagnosis, treatment and reporting of cancers." Please don't overlook or underestimate the impact of societal and cultural beliefs when it comes to cancer or other disease processes.

nelie
11-03-2009, 12:36 PM
Misskimothy - Although China was where the huge study was done as part of The China Study, it isn't the only country and it wasn't just breast cancer, it was all types of cancers. It is possible that reported cancer rates are low but actual incidence isn't but it would have to happen all across the world and all across different types of cancers.

I've known people who have had relatives die recently of cancer. Honestly, the last thing I want to tell those people is to have their relatives look at their diet, even if that is what I truly believe (although it isn't a replacement for modern medicine in anyway). I did have someone I talked to recently and did encourage that person to look at a whole foods diet and I think that diet can play a part in disease. I only said it because I think they were open to it. Otherwise, I'd say nothing.

So, you may disagree with my intent but my intent was to say clearly what I said in that if you eat lots of whole grains, legumes, vegetables and fruit, that you can fight disease. Diet can have a role in disease and I believe this strongly and I'm not sure anyone on this site especially would disagree. Whether they eat animal products or if they don't.

And I also wanted to add that if someone told me they were eating a vegan diet and eating chips, crackers, cookies, lots of processed products, etc, I'd tell them the same thing. Look at their diet and cut out the junk and add in the good stuff. After all, french fries are vegan (well except at McD's)

Wannabeskinny
11-03-2009, 01:15 PM
Has anyone heard of the Vegetarian Mondays? It's a movement started by Paul McCartney who has been a vegeterian for years. He believes that people can greatly influence not only their health, but the entire produce/meat industry if people cut out meat on one day of our the week.

We have planned meals at home and we include at least 2 meat-free days in the week. We reduced our consumption of beef, and tend to eat lean proteins like chicken or pork. We also have revised our portion sizes because they used to be around 10oz across the board, now they're 3-6oz.

As far as the whole idea of vegeterianism, I'm ok with folks who want to do that, I wish I could. My body needs protein to function and I love meat. My doc has told both me and my husband to steer clear of soy because we are in our childbearing years and trying to conceive. I don't buy the whole vegan thing, I actually think it's unecessary unless you have some kind of allergies or medical problems. I have a friend who's vegan and makes her kids suffer with her life style and her kids seem sickly. It's fine to live off berries and wheatgerm if you're an adult, but why would you deprive your children of the nutrients they need? Give the kid some cheese!!

nelie
11-03-2009, 01:31 PM
Wannabeskinny - I know vegan parents with vegan kids and their kids aren't suffering. I think though that there are definitely different forms of veganism and really you can get all the right nutrients and be strong but again it requires a varied diet. I don't eat much soy myself. Once in a while, I'll have tofu but it is usually only when I eat out. I get about 60-70g of protein per day which works well for me. For a while, I was getting a lot more (90-100g) but that was when I was drinking some hemp protein powder.

As for meatless Mondays, I think the big push behind that is the environmentalist movement. I know Baltimore city schools have gone to Meatless Mondays.

JulieJ08
11-03-2009, 01:32 PM
Well, ironically, I became vegetarian *because* I started eating more meat because of the prevailing opinions about protein on these forums. I was never a big meat eater anyway (having been raised Seventh-day Adventist, who are usually vegetarian - we weren't vegetarian, but obviously not heavy meat eaters either). I had been feeling a little grossed out by meat for some time. As I tried to eat more meat (and by more, I only mean once a day), it just really magnified that feeling. Around the same time, I did some reading about meat and health. And about how meat is raised and processed in this country. And that was that :). I do have a hard time imagining loving my current diet if I didn't love and prefer beans, tons of vegetables and whole grains.

I don't necessarily think eating meat is wrong. Meat may be more important (health-wise) in the diet of some people than others. The benefits of vegetarianism (health-wise) may be more important in the diets of some people than others.

But regardless, the way meat is raised and processed in this country, from both a humane point of view and a health point of view, is horrifying. While I may have a distaste for meat, I wouldn't be morally opposed to having it *if* raised, slaughtered and processed appropriately - but *that* happening is pretty rare.

On the other hand, I try not to be judgmental of all person who eat such meat. I would not expect anyone to starve or have worse health (if they are healthier with meat in their diet) because they can't afford properly raised and handled meats. And even if one could afford it or might even be healthier as a vegetarian, I am quite aware of how hard it is overcome societal beliefs that are so pervasive that the alternatives just seem like nonsense. Or how hard it is to change even when you know what you need to do. I'm certainly not perfect.

I do think eating well is the most important thing. I think that probably a high quality whole foods diet that includes pastured meat would be healthier than a junky, processed vegetarian diet.

But I also think we don't know as much about how healthy a whole foods vegetarian diet is as we should know. We have lots of studies about saturated fat, for example, but they don't generally distinguish vegan saturated fats from animal sources, or pastured from factory-raised.

nelie
11-03-2009, 01:41 PM
I do think eating well is the most important thing. I think that probably a high quality whole foods diet that includes pastured meat would be healthier than a junky, processed vegetarian diet.

But I also think we don't know as much about how healthy a whole foods vegetarian diet is as we should know. We have lots of studies about saturated fat, for example, but they don't generally distinguish vegan saturated fats from animal sources, or pastured from factory-raised.

I agree with you completely. Although personally, I just can't recommend animal products, I think whole foods are really key to health. I'd also love to see more studies done as there is usual a bias on one side or the other.

bargoo
11-03-2009, 01:42 PM
I like, Gary's sister, have cancer and I truly don't know if eating meat, or using artificial sweeteners , or eating foods with additives ( who knows what ) or using spray deodorants or room deodorizers or eating cool whip or other imitation food has a bearing. I suspect there are many environmental causes, I just don't know. I try to eat a healthy diet, not a lot of red meat but Im not a vegetarian. I thinkI have spent too many years doing all the dangerous stuff, smoking, drinking , eating additives in foods and all the other suspicious stuff , don't know if that is why I have cancer and my oncologist doesn't know either.

Wannabeskinny
11-03-2009, 01:48 PM
Wannabeskinny - I know vegan parents with vegan kids and their kids aren't suffering. I think though that there are definitely different forms of veganism and really you can get all the right nutrients and be strong but again it requires a varied diet. .

The argument between vegeterians and meat eaters is as highly charged as debates about religion. I love vegetables, they make up half of my diet, but I would never impose such a lifestyle on children. There's a difference between "all dairy is bad" and "too much dairy is bad" and I'm of the latter minded. I think the whole lifestyle of veganism is difficult to maintain, and especially challenging in the real world. Imagine the kids being the only ones at the party that can't eat anything, how are they supposed to handle these situations without being ostricized? I love cooking but I really do think about who I will invite over. I don't like having my hands tied behind my back. It's hard enough to cook for people with real allergies and wheat intolerances. Everybody is picky, everybody "can't eat this or that."

As for meatless Mondays, I think the big push behind that is the environmentalist movement. I know Baltimore city schools have gone to Meatless Mondays.

There are many things we can accomplish and I like to vote with my dollars. I believe that the more often we buy organic and locally produced foods the lower their prices will be. Meatless Mondays may be environmentally driven but this is a real opportunity to change our health as well.

nelie
11-03-2009, 01:59 PM
The argument between vegeterians and meat eaters is as highly charged as debates about religion. I love vegetables, they make up half of my diet, but I would never impose such a lifestyle on children. There's a difference between "all dairy is bad" and "too much dairy is bad" and I'm of the latter minded. I think the whole lifestyle of veganism is difficult to maintain, and especially challenging in the real world. Imagine the kids being the only ones at the party that can't eat anything, how are they supposed to handle these situations without being ostricized? I love cooking but I really do think about who I will invite over. I don't like having my hands tied behind my back. It's hard enough to cook for people with real allergies and wheat intolerances. Everybody is picky, everybody "can't eat this or that."


Yes, the debate can be heated but honestly I feel that vegans hold one of the biggest secrets and that vegan food is so good. I have been vegan for 2 years and I haven't found it difficult to maintain and the people that I know with vegan kids don't find it difficult to maintain. The one mother I talk to says that she makes all the meals for her kids and her kids love her cooking. They go to parties, they may bring cupcakes to share with other kids and food to share with other kids as well. They also try to find other vegan families in the area.

I went to a vegan Thanksgiving event last year and there were tons of kids. They said that they usually get about 500 people per year.

For me, if I go to someone's house, I offer to bring something, usually 1-2 dishes. We had a potluck recently, we brought 2 dishes and the hosts made us veggie kabobs along with making chicken kabobs. We were very happy.

I think if you believe a vegan and/or vegetarian and/or whatever life is important to you for whatever reason, then why would you compromise your beliefs because 'it is difficult' or 'i am around people who don't eat this way'. People say the same when they first start to lose weight and are surrounded by those who eat unhealthy, high calorie foods. What happens is that if you realize that what you believe is the right thing to do then you make it a priority and you do it.

kaplods
11-03-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't know if it's because of the controversial aspect of the subject, or because of a human tendency towards polar opposition, but I think the middle sometimes gets lost in the discussions.

Most often the debate is between veganism and a high red meat/low produce diet. A middle-range option is so rarely explored. People tend to think (at least as reflected in the discussions) that the option is between "meat (and fat) and potatoes" and raw foods veganism.

There are many options in the middle. There was a study done about 15 years ago that compared meat and fruit/vegetable (non-grain) consumption independently.

Thus they compared vegetarians who ate a lot of fruits and vegetables (versus mostly grains and beans) to those who ate less. And also meat eaters who also ate a lot of fruits and vegetables also - and those who ate fewer.

Surprisingly (or maybe not) meat consumption was not associated with health problems nearly as strongly as vegetable consumption predicted good health. In fact, there was little or no significant difference between the vegetarians and non-vegetarians when the number of servings and variety variety of fruits and vegetables were compared.

The study concluded that vegetable and fruit consumption was the more important variable.

Some of the newer research is finding that grains may be a health problem for some people. For example there may be a link between grains and autoimmune disease - not just between gluten grains and celiac disease (a particular autoimmune disease).

Research studies can be confusing and conflicting - but I've never found a study yet that has found fruits and non-starchy vegetables to have any negative (or even neutral) consequences. Every study that has researched the subject (if anyone knows of an exception and can site the research, I'd appreciate it), has found that increasing the number of servings of whole fruits and non-starchy vegetables has health benefits.

So, personally I think everyone can start with that - eat more fruits and vegetables. The FDA recommends 5 or more (of combined fruit and vegetable) servings, though the research really would suggest almost twice that.

If you're eating 10 servings of fruits and vegetables, you probably are eating less meat and grains, if only because you don't have room for them.

The closest animal equivalent to humans is the chimp. The DNA is so similar, that some scientists argue that if we were talking about any species other than man (except wolf and dog) we would decide they were the same species. In the case of gray wolves and dogs - many scientists argue they ARE the same species.

But my point being that the optimal diet for a chimp is fruits, vegetables, insects, and more rarely starchy veggies, nuts, and meats - rarely grains.

Chimps do hunt and they do eat meat, but it's not a daily occurence. And when they do eat meat, they eat everything (not just the muscle tissue).

Even carnivores must eat more than the muscle tissue, as there are vital nutrients in the organs, skin, and bones.

No matter how nutritious, most North Americans are not willing to eat insects. Organ meats have lost popularity also. We're picky about the meat we eat - and generally the safer, least nutritious choices are the most popular. In general, the lower on the food chain, the safer (toxins, etc) the meat, so whether wild, or domestic, small animals that grow quickly would be the best choice. Rabbit, squirrel, guinea pig - all healthy, lean meats but they're not considered meat animals by most folks.

I'm starting to ramble, and am getting off track. My main point, is that there are a lot of options between veganism and meat/potato/fat (and little else). Reducing meat may be secondary to increasing the variety and quantity of fruits and vegetables, but at the very least focusing on eating more (fruits and vegetables) may feel less deprivational or punitary than focusing on eating less (whether that be meat, dairy, grains, sugar).

nelie
11-03-2009, 03:59 PM
kaplods - I think I remember reading that study and I think I was a bit disappointed that veganism wasn't taken into account (only meat eater vs non-meat eater).

I also think when vegetarianism and, even worse, veganism is brought up, there is a reflex in some people to say 'you aren't taking my meat away from me!'. I made the personal choice to be vegan and I love it. I don't expect that others will make the same choice. Since it is my choice, I definitely think there are benefits of the diet or even moving towards the diet. I also found that my world expanded in terms of food once I went vegan. I tried restaurants and recipes and foods that I wouldn't have otherwise tried despite me being what I thought adventurous and experimental.

Each of us definitely has to find our own path though.

kaplods
11-03-2009, 08:25 PM
I also think when vegetarianism and, even worse, veganism is brought up, there is a reflex in some people to say 'you aren't taking my meat away from me!'.

I agree, but my main point is that elimination is not the only option (it is AN option, but not the only one). Elimination of favorite foods is a concern not only of omnivores, but almost anyone confronting any drastic diet change (you're not taking my Burger-King, my bread, my cookies and candy, my bacon, my cheesecake, my milk... It's as if people can envision only the polar opposite from their own position, and are so averse to that position they become resistant to even make one step toward the opposing pole).

I was reading a book recently, a combination gourmet cookbook and autobiography from a chef who has celiac disease. I can't recall the title or the author (if I do, I'll post), but she talks of her italian (I believe, or maybe french) heritage and food training, and how difficult it was for her to completely give up the crunchy-crusted bread and other favorite foods that contained gluten. Often she would eat them anyway, knowing she was compromising her health, and would suffer painful consequences.

With celiac disease, food allergies, diabetes, and many other health issues, "moderation" isn't always possible - that doesn't make elimination diets any easier. A person alway has the choice to make no change, and just suffer the consequences (including death). I knew a girl in college who had a shrimp/lobster allergy, but loved lobster. Once a year or so (at least she claimed, I asked her never to do so when eating with me, so I never witnessed it) she'd eat lobster and just take her epi-pen to the restaurant with her.

I suppose a person willing to face death for a favorite food, isn't going to be persuaded by arguments regarding the health benefits of eliminating that food from their diet.

I just find it interesting that small changes in diet are almost never (in my experience) discussed. People argue against making ANY change rather than facing an extreme change - and my question is why more people don't embrace the middle ground (or maybe they do, and just don't talk about it much).

JulieJ08
11-03-2009, 10:20 PM
I don't know. When I was researching vegetarianism, I ran into lots of advice about making the change partially or gradually. I don't seem to encounter much extreme polarity myself.

EZMONEY
11-03-2009, 10:56 PM
Obviously it is hard to believe all research...especially when we see who financed it.

However I think with all the knowledge we have available to us today certain things are absolute truths ~

#1 ~ There is cruelty to animals for profit

#2 ~ Fruits and Vegetables are good for us for health and fighting off disease

#3 ~ The better we eat the better our odds are at having healthy lives

#4 ~ Our animals are fed things we wouldn't feed them ourselves

#5 ~ Cancer can take anyone out at anytime! It has no favorites

Thank all of you for your advice and comments...keep them coming!

nelie
11-03-2009, 11:34 PM
Kaplods - When I talk about my own transition, I definitely had a period of transition from regular meat eater to infrequent meat eater. I went from eating meat every day to eating it a couple days per week to eating it once a week. The actual change to veganism did come over night for me.

I am also all for any lessening of eating animal products. My mom shocked me one day when she said she was eating more vegetarian meals. Then she told me she had been eating vegan for over a month and again I was shocked. I tried to give her as much info and tips that I could. She has started eating eggs again (she doesn't eat soy and was having some trouble with beans) and I have to say I'm ecstatic that she has made such a change. I can tell you that coming from our heritage, not eating meat and not eating cheese is definitely thought of as crazy.

I would also never ever tell anyone that they should be vegetarian or vegan or what not. I will often give the reasons that I am and I will share my beliefs but everyone needs to do what they believe is right for them.

Suzanne 3FC
11-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Gary, I think your #1 There is cruelty to animals for profit is the most important aspect for me. Like most people, I used to be a budget conscious cook and ignored anything I was confronted with in regards to the animals situation because it was easier just not to know. Many people on our own forums have said the exact same thing. I never really knew the extent to which the animals were tortured before and even during death. But once you know, once you really know, and if you have even the tiniest bit of conscience, how can you choose otherwise?

I think that if you carefully source small farm raised animals that are treated ethically and allowed to graze naturally in the pastures, that eating this meat is ok. But it's so much more expensive to raise animals ethically and most people are going to tap their wallets before they tap their conscience. It's a sad state of humankind. But if people take the time to learn about other sources of protein, they'll discover that going meatless is healthier and loads cheaper!

Eggs - Most people would rather pay one dollar for a dozen eggs gathered from a torture facility than 4 dollars for eggs from happy chickens. Even here you have to be careful. As Nelie pointed out, free range doesn't really mean free range. There is no legal definition for free range and it can simply mean skylights in the coop.

Cancer - A recent study of 500,000 people over a period of 6 years showed the highest risk of pancreatic cancer in those that ate meat and dairy. Within those results, the people that ate the highest amounts of saturated fats had 36% higher risk than those that ate the lowest amounts of saturated fats. Similar studies have shown increased risks of all cancers.

Global warming - Meat is is responsible for about 20% of global warming due to the massive amounts of CO2 and methane released from feed lots. Some experts have boldly stated that we could eliminate global warming risks if we just gave up meat and dairy. Even cutting out a percentage of your regular diet can make a dramatic change.

I refuse to support an industry based on the physical torture of animals. If people treated dogs like that, what do you think the public would do/say? Then why treat cows and chickens the same way? Greed? I won't even buy leather products anymore because it supports the industry. I even feed my dogs organic free range dog food.


Save money, save yourself, and save the planet. Go vegetarian.

Wannabeskinny
11-04-2009, 01:01 PM
I just find it interesting that small changes in diet are almost never (in my experience) discussed. People argue against making ANY change rather than facing an extreme change - and my question is why more people don't embrace the middle ground (or maybe they do, and just don't talk about it much).

My lifestyle change comrprises of only small changes at a time, it takes me months to incorporate small additions or eliminations from my diet and that's the way it should be for longterm success. I think most of us "embrace the middle ground" and find ways to compromise on what we want vs. what we should eat.

I have truly worked hard to change my lifestyle from that of an obese binger who went through the drive through everyday, to becoming largely vegeterian, minimal animal products, and especially adding foods that made me go YUCK like flax see, barley, 100% whole grains, brown rice, and other forms of cardboard :dizzy:. So clearly I see the value of going vegan, but I don't think I need to go all the way to enjoy a healthier lifestyle. So now I measure out my cheeses, making sure I eat real cheese and not processed deli slices. I've made so many changes to our life (mine and my husband's), and I'm content that I've made a real impact in our health and fitness.

I applaud and support anyone who chooses to lead a vegan lifestyle. I know it takes a lot of discipline to do so, and must take a tremendous amount of research to train children in this manner. I may be prejudiced in this subject but my experience with vegans is that they always seem sickly, too thin, and always suffering with allergies. It's always a little uncomfortable having picky eaters over for dinner as they seem to question every little thing "Are these organic mushrooms? If I don't eat organic it stimulates my IBS" and off they go describing every detail of their functions. Not to mention that I dated a vegan for 5 minutes back in college and all he did was lecture me on the evils of milk.

nelie
11-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Well I'm definitely not too thin, I have no allergies (unless you count penicillin which I had since being a non vegan child) and I get sick a bit less now that I'm vegan. My blood results (and those of my husband) always astound the doctors in terms of vitamins as well as normal items. My PCOS/hypoglycemia nor have my gall bladder issues resurfaced since being vegan. I've only met healthy vegans myself and I've met a number.

I also lift weights/kettlebells, kayak, run, hike and recently started doing karate. My body fat percentage has gone down, my muscle weight has gone up and my husband has had the same experience. I was just amazed the other day at fitting in clothes that I could barely fit in 2 years ago just after I became vegan but I was 10 lbs lighter. so for me, I'd say its working.

GatorgalstuckinGA
11-04-2009, 02:15 PM
i'm back in action again...too long gone...here's my views...i believe that we do need meat of some sorts in our diet. Here's my opinion..if god didn't want us to eat meat then he wouldn't have made B-12 only available in animal flesh. Yes nowadays we do have supplements and bluegreen algae (which isn't the same form as b-12) but until the 1930's or so B-12 was not found anywhere but in animal flesh and the body needs b-12...BUT THAT BEING SAID. I do believe we eat way too much meat...me included. I try to eat more veggies and less meat. And i try to eat more seafood when possible (but that's another issue with Seafood savvy..another discussion for another day). I was raised with a bachelors and masters in animal science (which is the science of raising farm animals). I do believe it to be important to eat more and more meat of better origin (not the mass production i was trained to believe in during college)...such as pasture raised, hormone free etc. I know i will never give up meat entirely...but i want to eventually go back to the old days and know where my food comes from. I hope eventually to have 10-20 acres to raise free range chickens (for eggs and food)...where they are only put up at night (to protect them from foxex and coyotes)...to have cattle I raise and then personally take to slaughter and know what was put in my cattle. I love anaimals but also believe that animals are food. And I know not everyone could do that and may think it wrong for me to do it (but I also respect true vegans and don't give them a hard time about their decision)...but I do think there is something to be said for "living off the land and becoming more organic". Even when it comes to vegetables. Salad picked fresh from the garden that day has such better flavor. I hope my dream comes true where i can raise my own food...because I do believe (despite my college training) that mass production of everything (not just animals) is not good. I have found some vegan/vegetarian recieps that are wonderful..and when i find them...i supplement them in my diet so I can eat less meat. Im not sure if this helped...but that's my opinion.

nelie
11-04-2009, 03:22 PM
i'm back in action again...too long gone...here's my views...i believe that we do need meat of some sorts in our diet. Here's my opinion..if god didn't want us to eat meat then he wouldn't have made B-12 only available in animal flesh.

I definitely respect your opinion as a vet and someone who has studied animal science. How would you explain that all herbivores need b-12 and they don't eat meat? Does that mean god didn't intend cows, horses, sheep, elephants, etc to not eat meat?

Of course I know we aren't herbivores but I also know we do something that herbivores don't do and that is clean our veggies/fruit to the extreme.

One thing I tend to do on my organic/trusted produce is to not clean it, unless there is visible dirt. I think it would just mean that we were supposed to live more naturally than we do.

GatorgalstuckinGA
11-04-2009, 03:37 PM
kaplods..most herbivores actually have a process in their body that creates B-12....they don't need it from external food sources. We do not have that process in our body. For example guinea pigs obtain b-12 in their feces..that is why g.pigs eat some feces. But other herbivores actually have the process in their gi tract of making b-12 so its not an issue with them. We don't have that process in our body...hence our need for external supplementation of b-12

nelie
11-04-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm not kaplods :) but we do make B12 in our intestines, like other animals. Like other animals, the B12 is made AFTER the absorption period so the B12 goes into our feces and thus in the ground which is why it can be found in unwashed veggies or if we wanted to eat our poo.

It is also why some vegans (NOT ME) believe you don't need to supplement B12 because our body makes it, but making it and absorbing it are 2 different things.

GatorgalstuckinGA
11-04-2009, 04:08 PM
thanks nelie...i forgot that about humans (those pesky human..no wonder i don't work on them LOL). I guess we could eat our feces and be fine (disgusting thought). I also went back to my vitamins book (a class i took about 10 yrs ago) to try to remember exact mechanism etc. B-12 is created by mircoorganisms. In most animals, it is created in the foregut where it can later be absorbed down in the hindgut...a few are hinggut creaters (the ones that eat their feces like g.pigs). So that is why it isn't found on plants...but since most herbivores require special microflora to digest plant material, they have the ability to make their own b-12

Wannabeskinny
11-04-2009, 04:14 PM
I couldn't agree with you more gatorgal, there is no nutritional purpose in eating too much meat, and limiting meat consumption is definitely worth pursuing, I know it has been very beneficial for us.

I never even thought of the B-12 issue! Just recently my uncle had been having dizzy spells and had been losing his balance (he's in his early 80's). He's allergic to most dairy and eggs, and does not like meat very much. After a couple of scary falls the doctor told him he is defficient in B-12 and must either incorporate meat into his diet or get monthly shots of B-12. He has opted for the monthly shots.

Ok now we're not washing fruits and vegetables unless there is visible dirt on them because we want to get the B-12 nutrients from the soil which originates from animal feces? Doesn't sound very appetizing, I would much rather just eat some chicken.

nelie
11-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Ok now we're not washing fruits and vegetables unless there is visible dirt on them because we want to get the B-12 nutrients from the soil which originates from animal feces? Doesn't sound very appetizing, I would much rather just eat some chicken.

B12 is found in soil because animals make B12, defecate and it goes into the soil. It is a bacteria and it is spread through the soil through natural mechanisms. There are also other nutrients that can be found in the soil. It doesn't mean there is feces on your lettuce. Beyond the most common way to get B12, there are natural supplements as GatorGal mentioned.

I also didn't say "you must not wash your organic veggies if you are vegan". I just was trying to say that I don't worry about organic veggies and washing them too stringently. Even if I ate meat or what not, I'd do the same thing. It is just something I personally do because I am open to extra nutrients, including B12 that comes naturally through our soil. And no I'm not going to go start eating dirt.

I supplement B12 (and other vitamins). I was also just reading something about how B12 deficiencies are more common in the US and other western countries than they are elsewhere, despite western countries tending to eat more animal products than most of the world.

misskimothy
11-04-2009, 04:54 PM
Um, B12 is not a bacteria. B12 is a chemical compound with vitamin activity. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Some organisms produce Pseudo B12, which refers to B12-like substances which are found in certain organisms but those that produce Pseudo B12 produce a form which does NOT have B12 biological activity for humans, a fact which may pose a danger to vegans and others on limited diets.

Again, B12 is NOT a bacteria.

Vitamin B12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly or indirectly from bacteria because bacteria is the only organism that can produce or synthesize B12, and these bacteria may inhabit a section of the gut which is posterior to the section where B12 is absorbed.
Herbivorous animals must either obtain B12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope feces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good B12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption. Certain insects such as termites contain B12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[

According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism. Also, vegan humans who eat only plant based foods must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets accordingly. The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B12 supplements.

While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B12 through consuming dairy products, vitamin B12 may be found to be lacking in those practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat B12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and fortified energy bars.

Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable include laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria.

nelie
11-04-2009, 05:05 PM
You are correct, B12 isn't a bacteria, it is found in a bacteria that is found in the soil is really what I meant to say.

ajowens
11-04-2009, 05:13 PM
My personal opinion is that higher protein diets are more successful than most others. (and fiber) I think that a balance of meat and veggies is so important and people that chose to be vegan or vegitarian should never push it on you like religion!! There is a book called skinny bit*h that I read and the whole book I was like yeah!! I can do this until about 1/2 way when they tell you you CAN'T be skinny with out being vegan. I still read it but it rubbed me the wrong way. TO each his or her own! For me, meat is a staple.

nelie
11-04-2009, 05:30 PM
ajowens - I've never read skinny b*tch but as soon as I heard about it, I knew I wouldn't like it. It would be the last book I'd recommend to anyone.

As far as weight loss, I believe and it is my experience that calories determine your success, not the macronutrients. I eat about 70% carbs and I lose weight, as long as I watch my calories.

EZMONEY
11-04-2009, 07:04 PM
As mentioned I believe God intends for us to eat meat ~ be vegetarians ~ vegans too...it is our choice.

I also have said I know God didn't intend for us to treat or raise the animals for our food the way it is being done.

I think there is some movement in the right direction on the cruelty to animals issue...hope the "what in the heck are we feeding those cows" issue moves quickly through the battle for healthy eating.


I respect all of your opinions and the reasons why you want to be or don't want to be meat eaters ~ veggie eaters ~ vegans ~ and I have no problem with your choices...it is your choice and yours alone.

But I have a question...and I swear it is not a smart *** question! I know, coming from me, that is hard to believe ;)

What if the entire world just decided to stop eating meat...all at once...something of a "flashforward" experience...

What would happen with all the animals?...wouldn't they reproduce and multiply...and take over? Who would watch or take care of them if we had no need for them? Wouldn't we just kill them? If we protected them wouldn't we just feed them our food vegetables? Wouldn't we need a whole lot more vegetables than we have know? What about the drought areas that are no longer producing veggies?

Just wondering....

For me it's about balance and being good stewards...

how do we get back to that...or did we ever have it?

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 08:00 PM
I don't think one could claim that the ecological effects of everyone all at once quitting eating meat, after millenia of domesticating / raising them, is evidence that we're meant to do as we do. The system is already drastically altered. I think speculating on what would happen if everyone quit all at once accomplishes zero, nada, nothing but getting people riled up over something nonsensical.

nelie
11-04-2009, 08:22 PM
Gary, we will never enter magically into the Star Trek world :) I don't see the world stop eating meat entirely. What I imagine if we cut back drastically, then the production of livestock would stop drastically, so the unnatural mass production would lessen the amount of animals naturally. Then I envision, we'd go back to a more natural state where those that did still farm animals would do so in a small fashion where the animals were better able to live on the land rather than us needing to grow large amounts of crops to support them (as we do now).

EZMONEY
11-04-2009, 09:57 PM
I don't think one could claim that the ecological effects of everyone all at once quitting eating meat, after millenia of domesticating / raising them, is evidence that we're meant to do as we do.

I didn't claim it...I just wondered the "what if"..

The system is already drastically altered. How so?

I think speculating on what would happen if everyone quit all at once accomplishes zero, nada, nothing but getting people riled up over something nonsensical.

Accomplishes nothing?...It got you excited didn't it? ;)

I was just wondering...that's all :)

EZMONEY
11-04-2009, 10:01 PM
That world sounds nice NELIE....but haven't we come too far to go back to what our ancestors had....

I imagine if we lived all alone on our own farms and raised our own veggies and animals for food...and shared with each other... then we would be living closer to what God intended.....

I just can't see the world as we know it going back to that...not saying that that is progress either!

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 10:25 PM
I didn't claim it...I just wondered the "what if"..


Yeah, that's why I said "one" and not "you" - but anyway, otherwise what's the point in asking?

The system is already drastically altered. How so?


Are you serious? Massive, disgusting factory farms, massive chemical and antibiotic pollution, massive corporations built on these systems providing cheap meat, a massive population that thinks it can't live without fast food.

Accomplishes nothing?...It got you excited didn't it? ;)

No. Seriously, more like weary.

And BTW, I've always been puzzled by arguments that bring God into humans eating meat. Maybe my Christian upbringing was unusual, but do most Christians really believe the Garden of Eden was meant to include slaughter?

EZMONEY
11-04-2009, 11:20 PM
Yeah, that's why I said "one" and not "you" - but anyway, otherwise what's the point in asking?

The same point as I had for starting the thread...I was curious to what some of the ideas were on becoming a vegetarian and related topics.



Are you serious? Massive, disgusting factory farms, massive chemical and antibiotic pollution, massive corporations built on these systems providing cheap meat, a massive population that thinks it can't live without fast food.

I wasn't sure what you meant by the words drastically altered...in reference to what exactly.



No. Seriously, more like weary.

Well good. It seemed that I got you riled up...wasn't trying to do that to anyone.

And BTW, I've always been puzzled by arguments that bring God into humans eating meat. Maybe my Christian upbringing was unusual, but do most Christians really believe the Garden of Eden was meant to include slaughter?

Well I can't say that I have ever heard anybody, Christian or not, approve of abuse of animals or the abuse of drugging them up. If you go back and read my posts I think you will see I mentioned several times that I am appalled at such things.

willow650
11-04-2009, 11:22 PM
And BTW, I've always been puzzled by arguments that bring God into humans eating meat. Maybe my Christian upbringing was unusual, but do most Christians really believe the Garden of Eden was meant to include slaughter?

God sacrificed/slaughtered the first animal to clothe Adam and Eve. Although I am not sure if the first slaughter was in the garden or right after they were kicked out of the garden. I am pretty sure it was still in the Garden(would have to go back a reread that part).From Noah, on, God gave us "Everything that lives and moves" as food(3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything). Also the LORD ate with Abraham, meeat from a calf, milk and butter. Thats in Genesis 18.

From Romans Chapter 14
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Peter was commanded by God to kill and eat the animals God presented before him (Acts 10:9-16). Paul instructed Christians to eat anything sold in the meat market without question (I Corinthians 10:25-26)

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer." (I Timothy 4:1-5)

It really bothers me when people assume what God may or may not have intended and base their belief on it, but doesn't research God's word to back it up. Take everything I have said with a grain of salt, but read God's word for yourself to know His intentions.

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 11:30 PM
Well I can't say that I have ever heard anybody, Christian or not, approve of abuse of animals or the abuse of drugging them up. If you go back and read my posts I think you will see I mentioned several times that I am appalled at such things.

?

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was commenting on several posts, in this thread and others, that God intended/created us to eat meat.

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 11:35 PM
God sacrificed/slaughtered the first animal to clothe Adam and Eve. Although I am not sure if the first slaughter was in the garden or right after they were kicked out of the garden. I am pretty sure it was still in the Garden(would have to go back a reread that part).From Noah, on, God gave us "Everything that lives and moves" as food(3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything).

That is my point. That was after the sin. It's a compromise. It's not what we were created to eat in the first place.

It really bothers me when people assume what God may or may not have intended and base their belief on it, but doesn't research God's word to back it up. Take everything I have said with a grain of salt, but read God's word for yourself to know His intentions.

Don't worry. It's quite likely I've attended more parochial school than anyone here.

willow650
11-04-2009, 11:36 PM
?

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was commenting on several posts, in this thread and others, that God intended/created us to eat meat.

Whether He created us to or not is neither here nor there, fact is, He gave us permission to do so. I also believe that the meat back during that stage of history is not the same as what we consume today. And by that, I mean the way it is raised, fed and treated, not type of animal

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 11:39 PM
Whether He created us to or not is neither here nor there, fact is, He gave us permission to do so.

That doesn't make sense. It *is* relevant if people say we were created to eat meat. Having permission to do so is an entirely different statement than being created, physiologically, to be healthiest by eating meat. I'm talking about health not sin.

willow650
11-04-2009, 11:40 PM
That is my point. That was after the sin. It's a compromise. It's not what we were created to eat in the first place.

He didnt have to give us permission, He chose to.

Don't worry. It's quite likely I've attended more parochial school than anyone here.

Did you actually read God's word for yourself? If so, maybe try again?

willow650
11-04-2009, 11:42 PM
That doesn't make sense. It *is* relevant if people say we were created to eat meat. Having permission to do so is an entirely different statement than being created, physiologically, to be healthiest by eating meat. I'm talking about health not sin.

But if it was harmful to the the body(Gods Temple) then he wouldn't have told us we can do it, especially in times before Christ, under the law.

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 11:47 PM
But if it was harmful to the the body(Gods Temple) then he wouldn't have told us we can do it, especially in times before Christ, under the law.

That's one interpretation. Another is that it is a compromise due to the damage already done to the system.

I really don't care if you eat meat or consider it "allowed" or whatever. All I asked is if people (in this case Christians) really believe we were actually originally designed to eat meat. I don't get that reasoning, and therefore asked about it. What happened "after" is what is "neither here nor there" in regards to that question.

willow650
11-04-2009, 11:49 PM
That's one interpretation. Another is that it is a compromise due to the damage already done to the system.

its not just an 'interpretation' its God's own actual words. Like I said, please find a bible and read them for yourself

JulieJ08
11-04-2009, 11:55 PM
its not just an 'interpretation' its God's own actual words. Like I said, please find a bible and read them for yourself

I have already said why that is not the case. And you're being condescending. It's not helpful. I have read. It's not very impressive to assume that if someone disagrees with you they have not read.

willow650
11-05-2009, 12:00 AM
All I asked is if people (in this case Christians) really believe we were actually originally designed to eat meat.

Since God sees everything from the beginning to the end, He knew we were going to, He knew He was going to give us permission, He made our bodies able to digest it, so maybe he did design us from the beginning to be able to eat meat.

willow650
11-05-2009, 12:01 AM
I have already said why that is not the case. And you're being condescending. It's not helpful. I have read. It's not very impressive to assume that if someone disagrees with you they have not read.

But you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Scripture, Gods words, not mine. My only suggestion is to just read and learn for your self what Gods words really say.

JulieJ08
11-05-2009, 12:04 AM
Since God sees everything from the beginning to the end, He knew we were going to, He knew He was going to give us permission, He made our bodies able to digest it, so maybe he did design us from the beginning to be able to eat meat.

Sure. Maybe.

JulieJ08
11-05-2009, 12:07 AM
But you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Scripture, Gods words, not mine. My only suggestion is to just read and learn for your self what Gods words really say.

I will not keep repeating why you are making logical errors if you will stop telling me to read for myself even though I have said repeatedly that I have.

EZMONEY
11-05-2009, 12:09 AM
?

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was commenting on several posts, in this thread and others, that God intended/created us to eat meat.

I apologize JULIE...I got the wrong impression out of your post...my mistake...I see now where I goofed....:^:

JulieJ08
11-05-2009, 12:11 AM
I apologize JULIE...I got the wrong impression out of your post...my mistake...I see now where I goofed....:^:

You goofball :)

willow650
11-05-2009, 12:14 AM
I will not keep repeating why you are making logical errors if you will stop telling me to read for myself even though I have said repeatedly that I have.


um, hard to make logical errors when just stating scriptures, being God's infallible word and you didn't say you had read the Bible, you said you went to school. That is not taking the time read His word and become intimate with Him, forming your own personal relationship with him.

JulieJ08
11-05-2009, 12:16 AM
Sorry, Gary, I'm leaving. The assumptions of the worst and the insults are tiresome, and that wasn't what you were after in your thread.

misskimothy
11-05-2009, 12:17 AM
http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Food/eating-popcorn-03.gif (http://www.smileyshut.com/Smileys/Smiley-Huts-Free-Food-Smileys.html)

kaplods
11-05-2009, 01:00 AM
Designed to eat meat? Well, I think we were. God's design? As a Christian, I would also say yes - we were designed by God (and perhaps evolution) as omnivores.

Personally, I don't know that I see a discrepancy between Christianity and evolution. I don't know whether Genesis is a historically biographical account of two actual human beings named Adam and Eve - or whether Genesis is an allegory for evolution of man from beast to human and the transition from hunter/gatherer to farmer (I read a very compelling argument of the latter by Jewish Rabbi Harold S. Kushner titled How Good Do We Have to Be? A New Understanding of Guilt and Forgiveness (He also wrote the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People).

To discount evolution entirely, makes it very difficult to understand the fossil record (intelligent design is a compromise position - a God-guided evolution).

All I can say personally, is that I don't know - but I find it interesting that intelligence in the animal kindgdom is associated with meat eating. Fat fuels brain development, and one of the prevailing theories of human development is that human intelligence as we understand it, developed only after hominids were able to include more meat in their diet.

Whethere it is still needed (particularly as we have the technology to extract vegetable oils) is another question.

Having a personal relationship with God, doesn't mean that I can necessarily understand God's will, or God's design - but I do have to think that if eating animal protein was inherently wrong - it doesn't explain the existence of predators.

There's an Inuit proverb, "The caribou feeds the wolf, but it is the wolf who keeps the caribou strong."

I think it reflects the idea of stewardship, we have to ask ourselves whether our actions are keeping the animals we care for strong, or is it making them weaker (and ourselves weaker as a result, perhaps).

I used to view predation as a necessary evil (the lion has to eat), but it's a much more reciprical relationship than that. Wild animals don't die quickly and painlessly, they die slowly and/or brutally. Often they're alive for much of the time they're being consumed. They die of illness, injury, bacterial infection, starvation, and interspecies as well as intra species conflict (taking human intervention out of the equation 60 to 70% of wolf deaths can be attributed to other wolves). And it's not just the predators, the hebivores have to be just as brutal to survive. The "gentle, peaceful" creature is often a myth. One of the most aggressive, dangerous animals on the planet was thought to be an herbivore (the hippo), but recently scientists have learned that hippos do enjoy meat when they can get it.

Maybe humans are supposed to evolve (physically or spiritually) to a meat-free diet, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. I don't think that meat eating is "obviously" the less ethical choice (in fact to say that, I think implies that predators are "lesser" creatures than herbivores). Shouldn't intelligence make the difference? Maybe not, since there's at least some evidence that meat eating can claim some of the credit for the intelligence.

I think on both sides of the argument, each side tends to think they have the "obviously" correct perspective. Sometimes I suspect that often when someone says "I respect you're opinion, but I disagree," there's a lot more disagreement than respect - and I suspect that some of that is to be expected.

After all, it's a very fundamental difference of belief. I used to believe that you couldn't love animals much if you were a hunter, and then I moved to Wisconsin (where it seems everyone hunts - I was shocked to learn that every one of my doctors are hunters). I have to say that I've never met more people who love and understand wild animals and their local ecosystem any better. It was the hunters who were thrilled that wolves have returned to Marathon County (I believe only one pack, I've been trying to learn more, as wolves are my favorite non-human animal on the planet).

Even "agreeing to disagree" isn't much of an option when people belief ethics and morals are involved. If you believe something very strongly (ethically), it's hard to find a comfortable middle-ground with a person who holds the opposite belief. Especially since the middle-ground can seem like a complete compromising of principles.

Of course I understand that some folks will consider my choice to eat meat (whether it's locally and humanely grown or not) to be immoral. I understand, and I am sympathetic - but since I disagree, I will continue to eat meat - according to my own conscience.

Hubby and I recently learned that there are some truly old-fashioned farms in our area that raise small numbers of truly free-range animals. They're not even expensive (because they're not promoting themselves). They're really a hidden treasure in the community, that the majority overlook, because they're southeast asian families, primarily selling to other southeast asian families (mostly Hmong).

To the community, they would be considered "hobby farms," but this isn't these people's hobby, it's their livlihood. They also have a food philosophy of letting nothing go to waste, so every part of the animal (or plant, for that matter) is eaten.

Often we think "I couldn't live that way," when we really mean "I won't live that way." And I'm not even saying it's alway wrong, but I think understanding that we do have a choice, is important no matter what that choice is.

thisisnotatest
11-05-2009, 02:07 AM
Hmmmm
Thought this was an interesting thread of food...till I got to the 2nd page.
Maybe this thread would be more appropriate in the christain forum

My own experience with vegetarianism has been far less dramatic.
I think every body, as in the actual body requires different things. The same way I don't eat something when a friend says they're hungry. I can only eat when I'm hungry. It doesn't make sense to do what others do, you have to do what feels right for you.

Personally, I was never a meat fan, or milk and eggs for that matter. As I became an adult, and started cooking for myself, I naturally cooked foods I liked, which includes less and less meat.
I will say that I was a fat vegetarian, and now I'm a thinner one. My feeling better and healthier is probably due to losing weight by eating less sugar and almost no restaurant food (used to eat out almost every meal).
We all gained weight for different reason, and the changes we make to be healthier will not be the same
I also hate using food labels, can't we all just be people that eat food, different kinds at different times.

Do your own research (this thread does not count as research-this thread is like asking the best way to get to xyz in new york, 20 people arguing to the death about different ways to get to the same place)

Experiment and let your body be your guide.

EZMONEY
11-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Thank you all so much for your ideas, advice and enthusiasm :)

This thread helped me in the decision Angie and I have been talking about for some time now.

I already knew, pretty much, where we all stand on this issue...we have walked this road before ;)....but....

I did learn some new things about the reasons why people eat the way they do :)

KNOWLEDGE is a wonderful tool :carrot:

When I started this thread, a couple of days ago, I had planned to eat more veggies and less meat for 2 reasons...

health and cruelty to animals...

I have stated my reasons why along the way so I won't go there.

I may see you veggie chicks more in the future....for recipes...I think Angie may....in the future...become a lot more "vegetarian" than me....

that is her choice :)

How you make your choices is up to you :)

I respect all of your choices :)

Now, lets go out and be good stewards of our blessings :hug:

Closing this thread :)