General chatter - interesting debate on infildelity--your thoughts?




mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 03:03 PM
this was our lunchtime discussion at work...


given that cheating is wrong.
given that said person (not me) did cheat.
given it was very short lived in duration.
given said person has incredible remorse and has never before and will never cheat again.
given said person has atoned in an acceptable way for them.
given said person in in counseling to find out why it happened and prevent from happening again.

the debate was ...if said person hasnt and doesnt intend to tell their spouse now or ever (which is not up for debate. they refuse and that is their business).
if and when (doubtful this will come to pass) the spouse finds the said person cheated; will it cause more pain then? or would it be less painful to find out now?

also given if spouse was to find out, it would result in divorce.

which the cheater doesnt want now or ever.

my questions is focused on simply NOW or LATER.

what do you think?


JulieJ08
10-27-2009, 03:14 PM
I think it would be very lonely to be in a marriage you knew only existed because you were lying to your spouse.

duckyyellowfeet
10-27-2009, 03:18 PM
The thing is: does the cheater think that the relationship will end in divorce if they tell their spouse outright?

It might be more painful to find out later, because then you've just been oblivious for how every long it took to find out. But it seems to be that the cheater has changed and sought out the correct (IMO) path to move past the issue and has shown the correct amount of remorse.

I cheated on my SO once, about four months into our relationship. I waited another four months to tell her. Waiting was the best choice I could have made. Yes, she could have found out between the time I told her and when it happened. Yes, that would have ended our relationship but I still stand by waiting. Maybe not waiting until never, but if they want the relationship to continue, timing could be everything.


annie175
10-27-2009, 03:18 PM
If it will hurt another person, don't say it. and it hurts no matter when you find out. Divorced 5 years from a cheating ex-spouse. Married 21 years. He cheated the entire marriage.

bargoo
10-27-2009, 03:20 PM
I say being the spouse of a cheater is very painful but I would rather know the truth than be lied to.

Thighs Be Gone
10-27-2009, 03:21 PM
I think cheater should CEASE and DESIST and keep their mouth shut. To "fess up" will only soothe their own concious. It will be very damaging to their spouse and to the relationship itself if it is to ever surface.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 03:21 PM
true.........but (being devils advocate) if we are all human and make mistakes? and said person made a whopper and is doing all that they can to determine WHY and prevent from happening again? should the souse be told which would cause them pain and (in the cheaters mind-which may or may not be true) cause a dissolution of marriage that might be saved by witholding the knowledge of a mistake(bad choice, whatever...CHEATING)?

that was the debate.
if spouse does get told NOW or LATER; which would cause more pain?
to spouse. cant imagine the cheater being in more pain.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 03:24 PM
to clarify...........the cheater doesnt know divorce will happen. and i get the impression that if cheater told (whenever); it would be the cheater that would seek divorce.

out of guilt and shame.

Jacquie668
10-27-2009, 03:24 PM
Honestly, the pain is going to be there no matter what and probably it would end up hurting just as bad either way. The point though is that by not telling their spouse then they lack respect and love, in my opinion, for that person. Apparently they care more about how they feel and do not really value, in my opinion, the other person. The person isn't fessing up because they don't want their marriage to end. That to me is selfish.

I made a mistake once, it didn't go anywhere except for emotionally (emotionally cheating), but it was still a mistake and in my eyes cheating. I fessed up KNOWING it could end my relationship. I respect and love my boyfriend so much that keeping such a destructive thing to myself just wasn't right. The thing is I didn't do anything beyond a certain point and when I realized what I was doing, which was actually self destructive, I stopped and said no. It still doesn't make it right and living in a lie isn't fair on my boyfriend or anyone. That is how I feel about it. My boyfriend gave me a second chance and you know what? We are so strong now and neither of us would ever do something like that. Of course I didn't go beyond said point, so it probably isn't the same situation.

I also want to note that not ALL couples break up after something like this happens. It usually though, I believe, changes the relationship and people. Some work hard to be together and others, probably more than the first grouping, split up and go their separate ways.

I mean if we went through our life not saying or confessing things because it might hurt another person, then that to me is just an open book for someone to do what they want.

mayness
10-27-2009, 03:25 PM
I'll preface this by saying I'm not at all the right person to answer this question. :p But I'm bored.

I think that the feelings of betrayal, disrespect, etc. would be basically the same now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, whatever.

But, since the spouse has decided that cheating leads to instant divorce, it would be a lot more painful to find out years from now, and think about how they could have ended it earlier and spent that "lost" time finding someone new who WOULD be faithful to them.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 03:28 PM
i "think" it isnt the spouse but the cheater that believes that cheating= instant divorce.

cant ask the spouse. but my curiousity is killing me to know what the spouse would say if asked (in the abstract).

AINT GONNA DO IT!!!

cant cause i dont know them..
thank goodness....nosy nosy nosy...<------me.

nelie
10-27-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't think that the person should tell. Truth is good but in a case like that where it was a single instance then the person should just keep their mouth shut and deal with their own guilt. A lot of times cheaters will tell to alleviate their guilt.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 03:49 PM
i havent given my opinion yet so here goes:

if the cheater saw the "mistake, bad choice, CHEATING" as anything other than a symptom of a bigger problem? then they shoud tell now. because if they just CHOSE to cheat, it is the epitome of disrespect. but if they ACTED (cheated) out of thier own pain and fear and history and they DONT KNOW WHY they did?

then they owe themselves the respect to find out why. and if they decide they did it cause they "wanted to or chose to" ? they should leave.

not tell. leave. leave the marriage and show respect for the other person by taking responsibility for their actions and CHOOSING to do something.

but to add to the mix....if your spouse told you they cheated?

what would be your first question?
(after the yelling and tears and the HOW COULD YOU's)

mine would be....."WHY"?

the cheater doesnt know yet.

mandalinn82
10-27-2009, 04:00 PM
I'm going to throw a slightly different twist in here.

Given that you all know who this person is, and are discussing it around the lunchroom table, and that the cheating occurred is apparently common knowledge among people other than the cheater...he needs to tell her now.

Because no matter how much hurt it will give her to find out from him, it's a fraction of what she'll feel when a coworker drops it at the Christmas party/lets it slip to a friend/etc and the cheatee finds out from someone else before he tells her.

My answer might have changed had he not let it be known by anyone other than him and (possibly) the person he cheated with, but since others know, she WILL find out eventually. Best from him than anyone else.

happeningf
10-27-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't know... I would want to know.

And almost always... the truth comes out.

But oftentimes, the cheater is counseled to NOT tell because they usually only end up telling because #1 they are worried about getting caught or #2 they feel sick with guilt and don't want to suffer with it any longer.

But in my personal life, tell me.

JulieJ08
10-27-2009, 04:10 PM
I can't even imagine the personality/boundaries of a person who would discuss their cheating with a group of friends over lunch. If it was about someone else (not at lunch) - then as mandalinn said, the cat is not out of the bag, it is out of the state, regardless of whether you all know who the cheater is or not. I mean, either the cheater knows their friend is making a roundtable discussion out of the situation (like I said, I would find this a very weird set of boundaries), or they don't know - that would just be awful.

TeresaG
10-27-2009, 04:25 PM
So here's my two cents. Usually a cheater tells only to ease their conscience and guilt, not to help the person in any way that they cheated on. If so many people know already, I agree they should tell because to hear it from someone else will only cause even more pain. The cheater is definitely doing the right thing in getting counseling to find out why they cheated. It will hurt no matter if they tell the spouse now or later. But for them to find out from someone else adds a huge blow of humiliation because so many others knew. If I were cheated on, I would want to know. The relationship might be over, it might not.

I was married for over 18 years, to someone who started cheating and found out through our co-workers. We worked at the same place, so it was very hard to go to work and see people because I wondered if they knew too and how long they had known.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 04:37 PM
to clarify AGAIN; which i wasnt clear on....the discussion was between ME and the cheater.

only us.

so far as i know? people who know?

cheater and cheater partner, me and her counselor.

i didnt know what to tell her.

i gave my suggestion as i have outlined before.
it isnt common knowledge and it isnt discussed at random.
sorry if "I" wasnt clear.
sometime it IS best to ask if certain things are a fact before assuming.
just saying.

mrs dorson
10-27-2009, 04:53 PM
i am headed to work now. but i did want to reinterate that the questions was NOW or LATER.

being angry at the cheater wont change what happened. and nothing you or i can say will make her feel worse than she does.
1) because ultimately people dont care what WE think.
2) her moral code is her own.
3) she IS suffering and KNOWS she did wrong.
and if she didnt want to do the RIGHT thing NOW after doing a TERRIBLY WRONG thing?

we wouldnt be having this discussion,would we?
she wouldnt have told or she wouldnt think to ask for help.

as always.....opinion welcome.
leave the judgement at the door.

unless you perfect.

LOL.

Thighs Be Gone
10-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Well, it IS being "roundtabled" here--on this forum.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be dragged into anyone else's drama. Maybe you should suggest a counselor?

You posted a "hot topic" for many women on a public board. It is what it is--a discussion forum.

kaplods
10-27-2009, 06:11 PM
I think it's absolutely impossible to give any useful opinion at all given that we do not know anything about the people involved. Any advice she gets should come from her counselor, and as her friend, it will probably best for you to stay out of it all together. If you give her any advice and it backfires, it's going to be difficult for her not to blame you. It's what people tend to do.

Sometimes just the fact that you KNOW is enough for a cheater to abandon a friendship - because of the guilt it stirs up to have that secret between you.

__

Ironically, this is something my husband and I actually discussed before we got married. It was one of the many "what if" questions that I felt was important to discuss (and no, I won't discuss what we decided - that doesn't matter to anyone but us - and in fact, if it ever DOES come up, there's a good chance that we won't react/act the way we thought we would when we discussed it - but at least we have a plan in place, somewhere to start if it or something similar comes up - consider it disaster planning).

EZMONEY
10-27-2009, 07:09 PM
From the first few lines of your post I assumed that - A ~ there were several people sitting around the lunch table discussing this and B ~ The cheater wasn't one of them...so I can understand how some people would also think MORE KNEW about the cheating.

I think the cheater should tell her spouse and suffer the consequences...maybe the marriage can be saved maybe not...but I don't think that is her choice now...she gave that up.

walking2lose
10-27-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't know... I would want to know.

And almost always... the truth comes out.

But oftentimes, the cheater is counseled to NOT tell because they usually only end up telling because #1 they are worried about getting caught or #2 they feel sick with guilt and don't want to suffer with it any longer.

But in my personal life, tell me.

Agreed. Truth is better because it comes out eventually in some way, shape, or form. It is more hurtful to be lied to.

However, regaining the trust will be a ***** and maybe impossible. Both will need counseling if that's going to happen.

misskimothy
10-27-2009, 07:52 PM
Here's a different thought for you...IF it is as you say, where the one who cheated has atoned, is going through counselling, and will never do this again, and the number of people who know is limited, I personally see NO POINT in confessing to the SO.

What the cheater did is not right. I would not nor have ever done the same. But I think that in this instance the cheater would only be hurting the relationship and has taken full responsibility for his/her actions. This isn't a habitual thing, and if the SO DOES find out, it will hurt just as much. But they may find out down the road enough for it to be an old wound and not a fresh wound.

There is a great story about George Burns who after his wife passed related the story about how he cheated once during his marriage after he argued with her over an expensive centerpiece. He felt so terrible he went out and bought Gracie the centerpiece, but told his friend Jack Benny about it over the phone. He never told her about his indiscretion. And she never told him that she knew about his indiscretion. But a few years later, he found out that Gracie had told a friend about the episode, and said that she wished George would cheat again because she really wanted a new centerpiece.

Not every indiscretion has to be a huge tragedy and a springboard for marital disharmony. Your cheater friend has atoned, repented, and sought counselling. I wish him/her well, and hope that with time, things will get better. I think telling the truth isn't always the best policy.

Jacquie668
10-27-2009, 08:02 PM
From the first few lines of your post I assumed that - A ~ there were several people sitting around the lunch table discussing this and B ~ The cheater wasn't one of them...so I can understand how some people would also think MORE KNEW about the cheating.

I think the cheater should tell her spouse and suffer the consequences...maybe the marriage can be saved maybe not...but I don't think that is her choice now...she gave that up.

I thought this too as from the posts following it seemed like there were more people and there was a "debate" among them. We shouldn't have to ask to clarify if we think the OP is clarifying the information anyhow, which is what I thought.

I also agree that the cheater should tell the spouse and she gave up that choice. Even when I made my mistake the only two things on my mind were 1) I have hurt and betrayed the trust and love of my boyfriend. and 2) I have to tell him and accept the consequences. At the end of the day it is HIS choice not mine. I could make him be in a relationship with me based on such a lie and that to me is completely disrespectful of him, his feelings, and his love.

Now when I did fess up he said "well you didn't do a, b, and c, but I'm hurt and disappointed that you got so emotionally close to another man." He also knew that I was self destructive at the time, I am not now, and that was out of my character to do anything like that. So, he gave me a second chance and years later we are great. The point is, I agree I gave up my choice because it isn't about ME. My suffering, my remorse, yadda yadda...it is about my partner, not me. We came together as a couple after that and moved on, but I do think had I done something more in-depth then he may have decided to go his separate way. But again, that would have and is his decision. I think it is interesting though that I didn't go to a friend or fuss over it. I pretty much went straight to my boyfriend and told him. Period. Another tid-bit I did know a guy years ago who cheated as in actually slept with another woman (he had told me of the affair as the reason his wife and he were separating), he went and told his wife right away. No ifs ands or buts, and they did separate for a time, but I believe they worked it out, at the time that I knew them they had reconciled.

To me "now or later" or her remorse and suffering is just skirting around the issue. I think what EZMONEY said is right on. Of course I think kaplods had an excellent point about the friendship. That is something to consider and take to heart. Friendships can break down fast if a destructive or negative secret there.

JulieJ08
10-27-2009, 08:05 PM
To strictly answer your question, I would find it hugely more painful to find out later. To have had my right to make my choice in the matter taken away from me. To have lived a lie. To have been manipulated.

Thighs Be Gone
10-27-2009, 08:20 PM
Not every indiscretion has to be a huge tragedy and a springboard for marital disharmony. Your cheater friend has atoned, repented, and sought counselling. I wish him/her well, and hope that with time, things will get better. I think telling the truth isn't always the best policy.

I could not agree with you more.

walking2lose
10-27-2009, 08:45 PM
I love the George Burns story - classic!

Aclai4067
10-27-2009, 09:25 PM
My sister was actually the one cheated on in a situation like this. Her boyfriend at the time had cheated on her very early in the relationship, before they were really serious. It only happened once. And she didn't find out until over a year later. She said that even though she knew it was a long time ago and wanted to just get over it and put it in the past, when she found out, it FELT like he'd just done it.

harrismm
10-27-2009, 09:31 PM
The partner of the cheater has the right to know...then decide if they want to be in a relationship with one who has cheated.Faithfulness is very important to certain people.To some, cheating is a dealbreaker.Hiding it is very unfair....you choose the behavior....you choose the consequence.And yes that might just be a divorce.

EZMONEY
10-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Not every indiscretion has to be a huge tragedy and a springboard for marital disharmony. Your cheater friend has atoned, repented.....

That is easy for the "cheater" to say I 'spose...I would also say true repentence in this case would be to tell the one cheated on.

misskimothy
10-27-2009, 10:23 PM
Isn't true repentance between you and your Maker? I'm not confident enought to judge is someone is truly repentant through their confession to me (or to a priest for that matter, not to get all religious and all). The only one who KNOWS if he/she is truly repentant is the transgressor.

EZMONEY
10-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Isn't true repentance between you and your Maker? I'm not confident enought to judge is someone is truly repentant through their confession to me (or to a priest for that matter, not to get all religious and all). The only one who KNOWS if he/she is truly repentant is the transgressor.

True forgiveness can only be forgiven by God...we may say we forgive...but those wounds still come back and hurt from time to time...doesn't keep us from trying though.

I think in this case, if the cheater is truly repentant that they would want to tell their spouse...get it all out...totally...if in fact she knows she would never do it again...no doubt it would be tough...but i think anything less is not total repentance...

I think it situations like this it's the chicken way out to not tell your spouse!

Especially since this was not a one night stand....the person had plenty of time to "think" it through it appears from the o.p.

I'm not judging either....just stating what I think!

Here is what my church says about repentance ~


The Psalmist David, mindful of his sins, declared: "I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord, and you forgave the iniquity of my sin'" (Psalm 32:5). After David had committed adultery with Bathsheba, and after Nathan had come to him, David confessed his sin before God and said, "a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise" (Psalm 51:17). In fact, David began this Psalm in the confidence that God is merciful and has forgiven his sin: "Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions" (Psalm 51:1)

That God is merciful and forgiving to all who call on Him is shown most especially in the coming of His Son Jesus Christ, in whom "God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them..." (2 Corinthians 5:19). God has already forgiven you, apart from anything that you have done. He establishes no conditions on His mercy toward you-including you having to confess your sins to others as a condition required before He will forgive you. When we know how much God loves us and think about the enormity of His forgiving grace, we can ask Him for strength and courage to go to those whom we have sinned against and ask also for their forgiveness.

misskimothy
10-27-2009, 10:48 PM
Hmm, not sure if you can say it is a chicken way out on one hand and that you aren't judging on the other...
Wonder what Darwin would say--probably that the one who doesn't tell stands a better chance of seeing the morning light, and would survive longer to continue to reproduce?
:D

lizziep
10-28-2009, 02:48 AM
I also feel like the only way that they can truly atone or repent for their mistakes in their marriage - is to be completely honest with their partner. They made a bad decision and their partner has a right to make his/her decision next. I'd much rather find out now, then through a friend, co-worker, neighbor- or at my doctors office with an std!
If my spouse cheated on me and I found out years down the line, I would feel like every "i love you" ever time we had sex, everything we did from that point on was a lie, insincere, false. i would be devastated. If I found out immediately that they made a mistake, were in counseling for it and felt terrible for what they did- I'd still be hurt and upset, but at least I wouldn't feel like my entire marriage was built on a lie.

mrs dorson
10-28-2009, 02:59 AM
wow.....all i can say.

so from hearing from the people who experienced being the "cheated upon"; hearing it NOW or LATER- it hurts the same.

only thing i wish to comment on is to say the CHEATER doesnt have a choice?

not true.

we all have choices.

we have to be prepared to face/accept/deal with the consequences.

and the cheater has her own moral code and her own religious beliefs. which may or may not be the same as yours.

and since she has confessed to her "higher power" (what that is not being our business)- i believe that it is up to HER CREATOR to forgive her.

me? i just love her. and accept her as the imperfect person she is.

disappointed? yep. shocked? yep. sad for her and him? yep
but to tell her she HAS to do anything?

NOT MY BUSINESS.

thanks for your input.

what i wish and hope and pray for is that she finds out why it happened and that she (yes- the guilty party) can find peace.

and the advice to set a boundary that she discuss this with her counselor instead of me?

wise advice.

kaplods
10-28-2009, 03:21 AM
only thing i wish to comment on is to say the CHEATER doesnt have a choice?


The people who saw "no choice,but to tell" do know that she obviously does have the choice to not tell - they were saying that they saw no other MORAL choice than to tell (they also understand that their morality may not be the same as yours or your friend's).

Of course her (and your) morality may be different - but when you ask a question on a subject that tends to be tied to ethics and morality - you can't expect an ethically/morally neutral response (well, obviously you can expect anything you wish to - it is after all your choice - but it's not likely that you will receive many neutral responses - because it isn't a neutral question).

nrz242
10-28-2009, 03:32 AM
being betrayed is painful. finding out you were betrayed twice and didn't know the first time is unacceptable.

mrs dorson
10-28-2009, 10:02 AM
kaplods?

i agree.
it is a hot button issue obviously.

the question was would it be more painful for the spouse to be told NOW or LATER.

not if she should tell (her beliefs dictate that) or if what she did was wrong (again her beliefs dictate but she says she was ) or even when SHE should.

and everyone who answers come from their own position. but while ANYONES religous or moral viewpoint affects THEIR answer?
it doesnt mean that it is correct or that the cheater HAS to follow it or SHE is wrong.

i read the bible and i am a christian and i may have the same religious beliefs as anyone who answered. but what if she doesnt?

what if she doesnt read the bible? what if it is the koran? or the talmud?

or what if she is a pagan?

or what if she is catholic?

does it matter? ABSOLUTELY!
but the choice and consequences are HERS.

i cant judge her. because it says in MY bible not to.




more wars are caused by trying to make OUR religious beliefs YOURS than anything else.

i respect you immensely , kaplods.
just so you know.

mrs dorson
10-28-2009, 10:09 AM
When we know how much God loves us and think about the enormity of His forgiving grace, we can ask Him for strength and courage to go to those whom we have sinned against and ask also for their forgiveness.

ez?
the operative word here (IN MY OPINION) is when.



and that was the question.
when it would hurt the spouse more to be told by the cheater.

and what if the cheater hasnt got to "when"?

it is all perspective.

if she doesnt know that God has forgiven her?

then she isnt at WHEN yet.

EZMONEY
10-28-2009, 10:12 AM
My goodness...

the question was asked what we thought...

we told you what we thought...

all of us....

I didn't see any post demanding or judging....

some people expressed what they "thought" because of past experiences I assume...some from their religious beliefs and some from their minds/hearts...

We all have reasons WHY we think the way we think....

I did see some "knocks" at my posts because I believe what I believe because of my religion (and also a lot of support...Thank-You!)...

but I am used to that....

and as KAPLODS says....these type of threads will always go on and become mini-threads inside of the original post...

always....

Jacquie668
10-28-2009, 11:16 AM
I'm a little confused too. It seems to me that you're saying that we HAVE to answer a simplistic question and that is it, yet you offered your thoughts and even played devils advocate at one point which was more in depth than just an answer.

The point is, clearly, that you can't really just answer "yes or no" or "now or later" because there is either no way to answer that as Kaplods expressed or you have a why either based on a personal experience such as myself or just a person's viewpoint. You can't expect that NOT to be in a thread that asked for opinions and thoughts as well as presented the idea as a debate topic.

I did not see anyone judging you or your friend either (or anyone actually as some people have said to not tell at all lol), but maybe that is just me? I'm also not a Christian, nor am I religious, but I do know what I view as "right and wrong" and I do also view that I gave up my choice to decide the fate of my boyfriend when I did something I viewed as wrong to him. Now my own mistake probably doesn't match your friend's, that is most likely true, but the point is there is NO CORRECT answer. All you have are thoughts from people from all walks of life. That is exactly what I have taken from this thread, in fact there are people who responded with "don't tell at all" and that is entirely okay. There aren't any judgments in my eyes, just opinions and experiences being expressed.

I guess I sort of view it as a "hit and run." If you hit someone with your car, lets say not seriously but obviously you wouldn't know at the time, do you put that person you hit as the top priority or do you put yourself? How many people, even good hearted peopled, drive away and leave the person there? When does it stop being about you and start being about someone else? So, that is what I mean by "giving up a choice" and I believe that is what some of the other people meant as well. Of course you have choices, but at some point the "I I I I I I I" has to be about someone else. An example "I'm going to counseling first before I talk to my partner about my cheating. I FEEL remorse, I FEEL BAD, I could lose my marriage, etc.." That is how I view it...so that is where my thoughts come from.

Is your friend a bad person? No, probably not. Did she make a mistake? Yeah, clearly by your description she views her actions as a mistake and has remorse. However, to answer now or later to me doesn't make sense as the pain is going to be there no matter what a person does. So in my eyes the question turns into confessing and accepting those consequences or not telling and accepting those consequences. Either way there can be consequences and either way those can be very negative. Not to say that they will be, but it is in the cards. That is how I view the topic and the question...

Thighs Be Gone
10-28-2009, 01:20 PM
That is easy for the "cheater" to say I 'spose...I would also say true repentence in this case would be to tell the one cheated on.


EZ, I don't cheat and think the advice is absolutely spot on. I think we focus too much here on "pigeon-holing" what is right for every person, for every situation. Problems and issues are what you ALLOW them to be. I think many allow society to dictate "how" they should feel, "how" they should act/react instead of thinking through things solo. Of course, it's easy to apply one size fits all bandaids as you move through life. Unfortunately, it isn't terribly effective.

lizziep
10-28-2009, 01:24 PM
when you put up a post - it can go anywhere... usually not at all where you intended it to go.

so for your simple question- is it more painful to find out NOW or LATER I say it is leaps and bounds more painful to find out LATER.

nelie
10-28-2009, 01:55 PM
Cheating being right or wrong doesn't come down to religion. It comes down to the fact that someone betrayed another person and they may have even promised that person at some point (wedding, ceremony or just verbal agreement) that they would not cheat.

Now if someone said "I may or may not cheat on you through our marriage, you'll just have to deal with it" then that is something entirely different than someone entering into a monogamous relationship. When I entered into my relationship with my husband while we were dating, we were both saying to eachother that we were monogamous to eachother.

There are other arrangements in marriages where people have open marriages and that is usually different and usually not behind someone's back.

And yes I will say that people will discuss and give the background behind their reasoning and that is reasonable to expect.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:35 AM
what i find illuminating?

the (only) two people who experienced being the "cheated on" side?

one said tell now.

one said tell NEVER.

so i say...to each his own.

each person has to find their best chaoice and live with their choices and their karma.

was interesting as always.

TamiL
10-29-2009, 06:26 AM
I say never tell. Its best that way. Why ruin a relationship or marriage over a little indiscretion? Its not worth the cost to the kids in the long run. Then again I would love to have an "open" marriage because I truly don't believe that humans were meant to be monogamous. It goes against our very nature.

I am speaking from personal experience here BTW. After 13 years together with my spouse, whom I truly adore. I have been having a "sex" fling for the last few weeks. It has nothing to do with love and quite frankly I don't really like this person. Its been about the desire to just have wild sex. In my case I think its a midlife crisis that I hope to work through soon. I don't have any moral qualms about it because religion has never been something that I can grasp.

It really is a decision that we must make individually based on our own
thoughts and not the mores of society or what our neighbors think.

whip1
10-29-2009, 06:46 AM
short and sweet. if the guy has the b*lls to admit his wrong he maybe worth keeping if not and he continues to live a lie then he has no respect for you so kick em to the curb........:devil:

heyaim
10-29-2009, 07:08 AM
IMO honesty is the best policy! Chances are if said couple were openly honest with each other from the beginning, it probably would have never happened.

whip1
10-29-2009, 07:18 AM
IMO honesty is the best policy! Chances are if said couple were openly honest with each other from the beginning, it probably would have never happened.

Touche'

4myloves
10-29-2009, 11:00 AM
I say never tell. Its best that way. Why ruin a relationship or marriage over a little indiscretion? Its not worth the cost to the kids in the long run. Then again I would love to have an "open" marriage because I truly don't believe that humans were meant to be monogamous. It goes against our very nature.

I am speaking from personal experience here BTW. After 13 years together with my spouse, whom I truly adore. I have been having a "sex" fling for the last few weeks. It has nothing to do with love and quite frankly I don't really like this person. Its been about the desire to just have wild sex. In my case I think its a midlife crisis that I hope to work through soon. I don't have any moral qualms about it because religion has never been something that I can grasp.

It really is a decision that we must make individually based on our own
thoughts and not the mores of society or what our neighbors think.

:cp:

Sometimes sex is just sex.

whip1
10-29-2009, 11:08 AM
life is too short to live a lie......
once a cheater always a cheater.

whip1
10-29-2009, 11:22 AM
:cp:

Sometimes sex is just sex.
that's just sad. where is the trust? morals? respect? what about disease if someone really cared for you they wouldn't do it and put you at risk and sorry but humans are meant to be monogamous it just depends on where your brains are if there in your pants then there's a whole different problem :mad:not many people take marriage seriously that's why the divorce rate is so high its really freakin sad.......

married 1 man for 27 years without stepping out and still going strong..I will unsubscibe from this thread now it's ridiculous

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 12:04 PM
Why ruin a relationship or marriage over a little indiscretion?

This brings up another question.....what if its not "a little indiscretion" and its a long term relationship that isn't soley about sex?

4myloves
10-29-2009, 12:17 PM
I'll state for the record, not that it matters, that I've never cheated on my husband, nor has he cheated on me--that I know of. And I WON'T.

But.

That does not mean that EVERYTHING (trust, morals, values, disease, etc.) is tied to the ACT of sex for EVERY person. The ACT of sex is just that--an action taken to fulfill our needs for self pleasure, reproduction and, maybe, to show our affections to our partners.

That being said, though, I do believe MARRIAGE should equal monogamy. Marriage is between one man and one woman (or two people who love each other and want to share a lifetime committment with only each other, I have to also admit that I'm a proponent of gay marriage, even though it drives my family crazy. You love who you love.)--FORSAKING ALL OTHERS.

Regardless, I'll stand by my statement: sometimes sex is just sex.

4myloves
10-29-2009, 12:21 PM
This brings up another question.....what if its not "a little indiscretion" and its a long term relationship that isn't soley about sex?

I think for this particular case the OP said it was a one-time, just sex, thing.

mayness
10-29-2009, 12:27 PM
Sometimes sex is just sex.

While I wholeheartedly agree with this statement if taken out of this context :D I think that in the case of cheating on a spouse, it's about the promise to remain faithful, not about the sex. It's about the lying and/or deceiving. I would feel hurt and betrayed if my husband did anything that he has promised not to do, sexual or otherwise.

I'm hugely supportive of everyone's right to choose their own form of relationship... monogamous or otherwise, involving as many partners as they desire... when that is agreed upon by all members of the marriage/relationship.

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 12:27 PM
I think for this particular case the OP said it was a one-time, just sex, thing.

Oh ok....I was just curious about when it isn't just a "one-time, just sex thing"

4myloves
10-29-2009, 12:45 PM
Oh ok....I was just curious about when it isn't just a "one-time, just sex thing"

Ahhhh, well, then it depends on whether it's him or me. :) :devil:

JulieJ08
10-29-2009, 01:14 PM
:cp:

Sometimes sex is just sex.

The problem is they didn't exchange vows to be "faithful, except when it's just sex." If they had, it would be different.

I think terms like "little indiscretion" are much more popular on one partner's side than the other, and it's not hard to guess which ;)

And a sample of two isn't much of a sample. In any event, the real sample of one (the actual party cheated on) cannot be predicted from the response of two people. I would think it's terribly hard, no matter how good your intentions, to truly decide to tell or not tell based purely on what is best for your partner and not on what you want to do. I can only wish them both the best.

EZMONEY
10-29-2009, 01:20 PM
..... The ACT of sex is just that--an action taken to fulfill our needs for self pleasure......

...... sometimes sex is just sex.

Yep...there are thousands of kids and adults running around out there....living messed up lives.... because their "biological parents" aka flavor of the month/week/day/moment....

went for that self pleasure thing.....

sometimes sex isn't just sex too....

4myloves
10-29-2009, 01:30 PM
Yep...there are thousands of kids and adults running around out there....living messed up lives.... because their "biological parents" aka flavor of the month/week/day/moment....

went for that self pleasure thing.....

sometimes sex isn't just sex too....

Of course, that's why it's prefaced with "sometimes."

Even with my DH, though, sometimes sex is just sex. I love him with all my heart, but that doesn't mean that I'm emotionally "into it" everytime he wakes me up at 4:30 a.m. to share the ACT.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 01:31 PM
2 is not much of a sample.

but it is all i got.

and i think from what they both said?

they didnt know until SOMEONE told them. which caused them so much pain.

being devils advocate here?

what if the cheater DIDNT tell (why is NOT the issue and for sake of this comment- not our business): the spouse NEVER found out and they lived together for 50 more years and loved each other and were true to each other and had a happy and full marriage.

who are WE to say their marriage is a LIE because she didnt do what WE think she shoud (tell now or ever)?

or what if she didnt tell and she left him next week WITHOUT telling.

what if by OUR (SOCIETY) judgement we made sure she knew she had done wrong, she would have decided she didnt want to be in the marriage and caused him pain by leaving him.

what if she left him because she was told the things that have been said in this thread to her face by people in her world.

and what if the first scenario could have happened if she WASNT judged and pushed to do something that WE want her to do (tell). and why do we want her to?

really? why?

cause WE (the bible, the church, society, US) feel better thinking she will do it.

why?

dunno.

4myloves
10-29-2009, 01:40 PM
I'm also not saying that you should just run out and screw everyone you see (Heaven forbid!) or that children should be having sex or being taught that it's ok to have sex "just because."

Believe it or not, some "1950's" morals resulted in things being better "back then."

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 01:43 PM
.there are thousands of kids and adults running around out there....living messed up lives.... because their "biological parents" aka flavor of the month/week/day/moment....

went for that self pleasure thing.....

.

EZ
i grew up in what appeared to be a intact family

2 parents and 2 kids----dog and cat

my life is pretty messed up.
my sisters even worse.

lots of secrets in our INTACT FAMILY---drugs, mental illness, incest....on and on


straight up i will say that if i had lived with one parent and they had a "flavor of the week" and i had been protected and loved and nurtured as a child?

i would NOT have cared how many "uncle joe or bob and harry" my mom had or for that matter my dad had.

moral behavior is PERSONAL.

and EZ?

i aprreciate your comments as a male with a strong religious slant.
the thing i hope and wish that you (and others) see is that the OP is a woman, she may or may not have had your church influence and she may not have had your life experience growing up.

i see your side. can you (not just you but others who have said her not telling is wrong based on church principles) see her? and see that while she is not you?

her choices may be the best for her.

and i am not picking a fight and i hope it doesnt sound like i am.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:02 PM
random thought while making coffee

remember reading "the scarlet letter"?

hester told.
she got shamed and shunned and damned to ****.

the Reverend didnt tell.

he lived without public shame and without moral condemnation.

whether she SHOULD tell isnt my questions. never was.

but i got a answer i didnt expect.

The answer i got was that i need to be more like MY higher power and forgive those who trespass against me (or my societal rules). as MY God forgives me.

cause while i sure would not want to be hester? i would hate worse to be the one who forced her to pin on the BIG RED A.

wow...this has really made me think and evaluate myself.

how about you?

JulieJ08
10-29-2009, 02:10 PM
what if the cheater DIDNT tell (why is NOT the issue and for sake of this comment- not our business): the spouse NEVER found out and they lived together for 50 more years and loved each other and were true to each other and had a happy and full marriage.

What if indeed? What if he would have been happier in the long run if they had dealt up front with the infidelity and whatever other problems (because it did not happen in isolation), whether that meant staying together or not?

who are WE to say their marriage is a LIE because she didnt do what WE think she shoud (tell now or ever)?

Um, because it is. That is just fact.

or what if she didnt tell and she left him next week WITHOUT telling.

Well, I guess that would be her choice. It would be a rather strange choice, and certainly not a caring one, to leave him wondering. I have no idea what this scenario is about.

what if by OUR (SOCIETY) judgement we made sure she knew she had done wrong, she would have decided she didnt want to be in the marriage and caused him pain by leaving him.

I don't quite get this idea that we are supposed to have no judgment about infidelity. No one has said that she is irredeemably evil. But she did something *very* wrong. "What if by our judgment we made sure she knew she had done wrong" - I thought the premise from the first post was that she knew she did something wrong - how then could society make her do anything by convincing her of something she's already convinced of?

what if she left him because she was told the things that have been said in this thread to her face by people in her world.

No one can make her do anything. She has to choose. We're not saying anything that wouldn't be appropriate to say to her, if she asked for opinions.

JulieJ08
10-29-2009, 02:23 PM
random thought while making coffee

remember reading "the scarlet letter"?

hester told.
she got shamed and shunned and damned to ****.

the Reverend didnt tell.

he lived without public shame and without moral condemnation.

Yeah, not right, no question.

whether she SHOULD tell isnt my questions. never was.

but i got a answer i didnt expect.

I think part of that is because for those who think it would be more painful to find out later - the reason they think it would be harder is all about why they think it is wrong not to tell in the first place. You can't separate that.

The answer i got was that i need to be more like MY higher power and forgive those who trespass against me (or my societal rules). as MY God forgives me.

I agree. But I *think* you've confused truth with forgiveness. I don't know if this is what you intended, but what has been coming across in your posts (at least to me) is that forgiveness means not telling. And if we think she should tell, it means we're judging and not forgiving. But they are entirely different issues.


cause while i sure would not want to be hester? i would hate worse to be the one who forced her to pin on the BIG RED A.

Again, no one has said anything about forcing her to do anything. Telling her husband if she won't do it - that would be forcing. All anyone has advised is that she should decide to tell truth. I suppose you could say she has been advised to pin the big red A on herself, but no one has advised forcing her to do it or doing it to her.


wow...this has really made me think and evaluate myself.

how about you?

It certainly is thought-provoking. I'm willing to consider the possibility that it's not always the right thing to tell people something they don't know about yet. But I think it's highly difficult to make that decision.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs dorson
who are WE to say their marriage is a LIE because she didnt do what WE think she shoud (tell now or ever)?

Um, because it is. That is just fact.


************************************************** ********

a fact according to who?

would you like to pin the BIG RED A on her yourself?

************************************************** ********

did the universe or God or Buddha or Jehovah or Odin or whoever come down and tell you personally that :

"IFthis woman doesnt do what YOU (not anyones higher power) say she should do-her marriage is a lie. and she will never ever be able to move past it. her entire lifetime with this man will be a falsehood."

really?

WHO SAYS SO?

she has her karma. i have mine.

and no offense but you do too. will you be comfortable facing your higher power and explaining your treatment of this person (in this forum or in your mind)?

not just asking you, julie
asking everyone.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:29 PM
old saying.......when you are pointing one finger at someone else? you have 4 pointing at youself.

just saying....

Jacquie668
10-29-2009, 02:35 PM
and EZ?

i aprreciate your comments as a male with a strong religious slant.
the thing i hope and wish that you (and others) see is that the OP is a woman, she may or may not have had your church influence and she may not have had your life experience growing up.

i see your side. can you (not just you but others who have said her not telling is wrong based on church principles) see her? and see that while she is not you?

her choices may be the best for her.

and i am not picking a fight and i hope it doesnt sound like i am.

Actually, I only saw one person talk about religion in this thread and that was EZ, so I'm not sure what others you are referring to. Perhaps you're putting your own spin on what they think or I missed all the religious references. I've seen people speak about facts versus lies, wrong and right, but I haven't seen all the religious things you are referring to. I mean my own opinion has NOTHING to do with what I believe as in my spirituality. I just view things as right or wrong in certain situations on what I THINK RIGHT AND WRONG IS. This is a "right" and/or "wrong" situation and that is that. There is no spin or debate or what ifs, it just is what I think. If someone else thinks it is jolly okay to go around and have sex with the world, put themselves first and live a life of lies, and think that is entirely okay, well then that is them and there ya go. lol

You asked if we can see her? My answer, no, because to be frank I doubt most of the posters would change their opinion on what they view as right or wrong or what action they would take if the person in the situation changed. It is the situation that you asked us to comment on based on what we think, not about your friend and her thoughts. So, that is why I don't see judgments, which you keep referring to or perhaps you're talking in general terms. That could be. You asked us about what we thought about a situation and a topic, to me it doesn't matter who the people involved are. It just is a situation. I have no personal attachment at all to you or your friend, but of course I wish you both the best.

I mean in my eyes cheating is cheating. It doesn't matter if you're male, purple, pink, polka-dotted, blah blah, so EZ's gender and religion doesn't have much to do with it as the same opinion, minus the religious aspect, was repeated by several people from different walks of life. If someone values sex over love, or values themselves over others, or values other people over them, yadda yadda all of those MAY BE the best choices for that person, however many choices we make can be negative and/or destructive. So, whatever choice your friend makes is hers and hers alone, that means she has to accept the consequences of those decisions. Not you, not me, not anyone else, but her and whoever else is involved. No judgments, that is how it is, that is life. I mean it isn't poetry or book or a movie, it is real life. That is how it is...

All we can do is give you a thought based on where we come from, who we are, and what we think.

*shrugs*

and no offense but you do too. will you be comfortable facing your higher power and explaining your treatment of this person (in this forum or in your mind)?

not just asking you, julie
asking everyone.

??? SOOO confused. Treatment of who you, her?? What higher power? What are you talking about? I dunno, I mean I don't even HAVE A HIGHER POWER. I'm like a spiritual pagan. I believe in nature lol Wow...Anyhow, best of luck to you and your friend. :p Seriously...I do mean that, so take care of yourselves.

lovinlifex2
10-29-2009, 02:37 PM
I have not read all the responses yet, but I as the person who's ex husband did cheat on me I would say that I absolutley am glad that I found out. Granted it was not from him, but I am still glad that I was able to make an informed decision about my marriage then to not have all the "facts" so to speak.

I think if someone has cheated in their realtionship then there are some deep rooted issues that need to be discussed and resolved if they intend to stay in that relationship.

Just my thoughts from someone who has been the cheated on person in the relationship. I have never cheated on a signifigant other and maybe I am not able to see both sides???

JulieJ08
10-29-2009, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs dorson
who are WE to say their marriage is a LIE because she didnt do what WE think she shoud (tell now or ever)?

Um, because it is. That is just fact.


************************************************** ********

a fact according to who?

would you like to pin the BIG RED A on her yourself?

************************************************** ********

did the universe or God or Buddha or Jehovah or Odin or whoever come down and tell you personally that :

"IFthis woman doesnt do what YOU (not anyones higher power) say she should do-her marriage is a lie. and she will never ever be able to move past it. her entire lifetime with this man will be a falsehood."

really?

WHO SAYS SO?

Again, you are conflating different issues. The marriage is a vow of fidelity. She cheated. He does not know. That is a lie. I do not understand your point at all. What does god have to do with the definition of lie. It is just a definition of a word in English.

she has her karma. i have mine.

and no offense but you do too. will you be comfortable facing your higher power and explaining your treatment of this person (in this forum or in your mind)?

Where has anyone said they are applying advice to her they do not apply to themselves. Yes, I will be comfortable facing my higher power [not sure I believe in one, but whatever] and explaining my treatment. It is the same treatment I feel obligated, from my higher power, to apply to my own life.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:47 PM
Jacquie668
thanks for your input. my comments you quoted WERE directed to EZ and "others". not necessarily you. and if you are comfortable with your views?

BRAVO!


lovinlifex2 ?

you are only the 3rd to have been the cheated on. so your view is wonderfully welcome. out of 3 people?

1 said NEVER tell
1 said tell NOW
1 (being you) said you would want to know with no specific time.

still a small sample from someone who has actually experienced it.

but thank you for giving your vote.

lovinlifex2
10-29-2009, 02:48 PM
:cp:

Sometimes sex is just sex.

I don't know about that statement....

I tend to think of women more in terms of "creatures of emotion". I know that I could never just "have sex" with someone for the sake of having sex. For me sex is a very intimate, meaningful thing that I would not want to throw around and do with just anybody.

Maybe I am out of the loop of how women are thinking now a days - or maybe I am just too old fashioned, but it sure scares me if that is the new "norm" in terms of sex.

lovinlifex2
10-29-2009, 02:52 PM
Jacquie668
thanks for your input. my comments you quoted WERE directed to EZ and "others". not necessarily you. and if you are comfortable with your views?

BRAVO!


lovinlifex2 ?

you are only the 3rd to have been the cheated on. so your view is wonderfully welcome. out of 3 people?

1 said NEVER tell
1 said tell NOW
1 (being you) said you would want to know with no specific time.

still a small sample from someone who has actually experienced it.

but thank you for giving your vote.

Sorry I was unclear - to clarify - I would want to know now. I would want to be able to make an informed decision about all parts of my marriage. If I was cheated on then obvioulsy there is something serious going on that I feel I should be made aware of and able to deal with however I felt was right for me.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 02:56 PM
what if the spouse said (PRIOR TO THIS ISSUE);


if you cheat? and it isnt going to cause you to leave me?


i dont want to know.


what then?

************************************************** ********

still so sure that she should tell?

and if you are?

who is her telling going to make feel better?

YOU?

cause she did what she is SUPPOSED to?


who decides what she is SUPPOSED to do?


************************************************** ********

and i ask again.....who wants to pin the BIG RED A on her?


step right up. but be sure you are sure.

cause by doing so?
you ARE judging.
you are condemning.
and you are putting yourself above God.

he forgave her the second she asked and repented.

the marriage vows dont include the words "never ever screw up cause if you do-your marriage is null and void"

it says "forsaking all others".

she broke her vows.
but by condemning her and saying if she doesnt do ( fill in the blank with what YOU want her to do) HER marriage is a lie.

what are you doing?

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:00 PM
Where has anyone said they are applying advice to her they do not apply to themselves. Yes, I will be comfortable facing my higher power [not sure I believe in one, but whatever] and explaining my treatment. It is the same treatment I feel obligated, from my higher power, to apply to my own life.


julie,

exactly my point.

when your higher power says to you?
did you JUDGE this woman?

what will you say?

back to the bible.

what did Jesus say to the stone throwers?

if you are without sin----cast the first stone.

very specifically, my question was "will YOU be comfortable explaing to your higher power your treatment of this woman"?

if so?

BRAVO to you.

4myloves
10-29-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm beginning to be confused here.....

You've gotten lots of responses to your original question, why keep on asking "new" questions and changing the equation? Are you doing a research paper based on "real life" and we're not supposed to know?

Do the opinions of people who have been cheated on matter more? How do you know who has or hasn't been if they don't specify in their posts? Your posts seem to indicate that the 3 people who have confessed to being cheated on are the only ones that have any merit--all of the rest of us are being judgmental. Why didn't you specify that you only wanted to hear from those who had been cheated on?

Maybe I'm just being obtuse?

4myloves
10-29-2009, 03:03 PM
I don't know about that statement....

I tend to think of women more in terms of "creatures of emotion". I know that I could never just "have sex" with someone for the sake of having sex. For me sex is a very intimate, meaningful thing that I would not want to throw around and do with just anybody.

Maybe I am out of the loop of how women are thinking now a days - or maybe I am just too old fashioned, but it sure scares me if that is the new "norm" in terms of sex.

Really? In the years that you've been married you've NEVER just had sex with your husband? Ever? Every time it was some deep, emotional act?

I'm jealous of you. I can't work up that much care at 4 in the morning. :devil:

JulieJ08
10-29-2009, 03:05 PM
what if the spouse said (PRIOR TO THIS ISSUE);

if you cheat? and it isnt going to cause you to leave me?

i dont want to know.

what then?

still so sure that she should tell?

Good grief, that's not what you asked. That is entirely different.



and i ask again.....who wants to pin the BIG RED A on her?

step right up. but be sure you are sure.

Good grief, no one has said to do anything to her. I can see why you're so frustrated with this thread, because you think people are saying things they Have. Not. Said. I'll repeat that. You keep talking about people doing something to her - but no one has said that. Can you stop making that straw-man argument, please?

the marriage vows dont include the words "never ever screw up cause if you do-your marriage is null and void"

it says "forsaking all others".

This doesn't make much sense. Adultery is grounds for divorce. It does make the marriage null and void (ignoring semantic issues here, as "null" is not actually true here, as it does have specific meaning in relationship to marriages) if the partner so chooses.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:14 PM
julie...............i really like you!


and just like in life?

i added in more info.

i am not frustrated a bit.

this thread went somewhere i didnt expect and i am going with it.


and by making the statement (implied or otherwise) that if she doesnt tell?

her marriage is a lie.

IS JUDGING.
there is no way around that. it is taking our viewpoint and making a blanket statement about ALL people.

************************************************** *******

and this is for everyone.

i ask again.....who says she has to tell or she is wrong?

it wasnt my initial questions but it is now.

and if you believe that?

are you ready to brand her as a adulterer? (handing you the BIG RED A to pin on her)
and if you do?

what would your higher power say?

are you sinless that you may judge others?

if you dont have a higher power?

do you believe in karma?

would you want your treatment of her (or others in your life) to boomerang back to you?

just asking

lovinlifex2
10-29-2009, 03:22 PM
Really? In the years that you've been married you've NEVER just had sex with your husband? Ever? Every time it was some deep, emotional act?

I'm jealous of you. I can't work up that much care at 4 in the morning. :devil:

Are you kidding...we have 3 kids and one on the way...all we have time for are quickies while the kids are asleep. ;)

I was more referring to the act outside of the marriage/realtionship based on the topic. Meaning in a cheating type situation with someone you are not already connected and share a bond with (meaning your signifigant other). I can't imagine thinking that it is ok to cheat based on the thought of "sex is just sex" mentality and that it means nothing so it is ok to act upon.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:27 PM
4 myself?

all opinions matter. i am intrigued that the people who specified they were the cheated on? are far less dogmatic and far less determined that she should tell or her marriage is a lie.

maybe because they have a frame of reference?
and you are correct that i (we) have no way to know if anyone has been the cheated on or the cheated unless they say. which they dont have to.


and no on the paper. i am just being catalytic and exploring all subjects emerging. and i agree on the 4 in the moring sex comment.


can you imagine how exhausted one would be if it was a deep emotional experience every time.

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't know about that statement....

I tend to think of women more in terms of "creatures of emotion". I know that I could never just "have sex" with someone for the sake of having sex. For me sex is a very intimate, meaningful thing that I would not want to throw around and do with just anybody.
Maybe I am out of the loop of how women are thinking now a days - or maybe I am just too old fashioned, but it sure scares me if that is the new "norm" in terms of sex.

:bravo:I could not agree more with you.

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:31 PM
i agree also, kim



i believe that men need a place; women need a reason.


refering to sex- not infidility.

4myloves
10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
Are you kidding...we have 3 kids and one on the way...all we have time for are quickies while the kids are asleep. ;)

I was more referring to the act outside of the marriage/realtionship based on the topic. Meaning in a cheating type situation with someone you are not already connected and share a bond with (meaning your signifigant other). I can't imagine thinking that it is ok to cheat based on the thought of "sex is just sex" mentality and that it means nothing so it is ok to act upon.

Gotcha!

And totally understand, too, especially since we had to remove the railing from the baby's bed! :o

Thighs Be Gone
10-29-2009, 03:35 PM
Sign my name with Jersey and lovin' overhead. SPOT ON!

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 03:36 PM
i agree also, kim



i believe that men need a place; women need a reason.


refering to sex- not infidility.

My response to that is....thankfully, not ALL men are created equal:)

mayness
10-29-2009, 03:47 PM
Maybe I am out of the loop of how women are thinking now a days - or maybe I am just too old fashioned, but it sure scares me if that is the new "norm" in terms of sex.

Purely out of curiosity, and feel free to deny to answer if you think it's taking the thread in too different a direction :p... why does this "scare" you? Are you scared for yourself (maybe that you'd be seen as "weird") or for other women? Or men? Or is it a religious/moral thing?

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:51 PM
kim?

absolutely and totally agree.


where i was going with that tho?

even in a marriage? MY marriage?

for it to be a emotionally intense experience?

i need a reason.

my husband?

sex is sex is sex.

he needs a place.

LOL

now to avoid being reprimanded by the mods? i wont further comment on MY sex life with MY husband in detail.

but lets say it is good for me and covers the gamut of reason and place and emotional bonding. whew...

hope that was G rated.

i tried... ha!

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 03:52 PM
mayness!!!!


awesome questions!!!

i am waiting to see the responses...

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 04:04 PM
kim?

absolutely and totally agree.


where i was going with that tho?

even in a marriage? MY marriage?

for it to be a emotionally intense experience?

i need a reason.

my husband?

sex is sex is sex.

he needs a place.

LOL

now to avoid being reprimanded by the mods? i wont further comment on MY sex life with MY husband in detail.

but lets say it is good for me and covers the gamut of reason and place and emotional bonding. whew...

hope that was G rated.

i tried... ha!

I stick to my orginal response, thankfully, ALL men are not created equal. And without getting into the details, I believe many relationships could greatly benefit from the art of tantric sex:)

4myloves
10-29-2009, 04:10 PM
I stick to my orginal response, thankfully, ALL men are not created equal. And without getting into the details, I believe many relationships could greatly benefit from the art of tantric sex:)

Side bar: One of my friends and her husband were practicing the art of Tantric and he, um, lost his marbles. They had to stop and go to the ER.

EZMONEY
10-29-2009, 04:12 PM
Aw G spot...where is this thread headed?

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Side bar: One of my friends and her husband were practicing the art of Tantric and he, um, lost his marbles. They had to stop and go to the ER.

Hmmmm.....sorry to hear that. And again....ALL men are not created equal;)

mrs dorson
10-29-2009, 04:28 PM
in his posterior?


oh my

4myloves
10-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Retraction. Ouch.

EZMONEY
10-29-2009, 05:34 PM
.....

and EZ?

i aprreciate your comments as a male with a strong religious slant.
the thing i hope and wish that you (and others) see is that the OP is a woman, she may or may not have had your church influence and she may not have had your life experience growing up.....

You know it never bothers me when people bring up the fact that I am a christian or some of my posts swing from that side of the plate..I would hope that they do.

What I do resent is the fact that some threads can go on and on with people sharing their thoughts but as soon as I (sometimes I really strongly feel this way...so bear with me gals ;)) voice mine it becomes a "who are you to judge" thing.

If you look back I made several comments answering your question and didn't bring religious beliefs up at all.

The only time I did is when I said I didn't know if the girl was really repentant if she didn't go to her husband with the truth.

Another poster said that was between her and her maker....fair enough but when she brought up "maker" I came back with what my faith says about true repentance according to my God's Word....

I never judged her...I just stated my opinion....what I believe and why on repentance.

To tell you the truth I enjoy sex as much as anyone :)

oh to be young again....;)

But I can also say that when anyone has sex outside of marriage they are taking a very big risk for unfortunate things to happen....

notice I did not say christian marriage...just marriage :)

venting finished....whewww....;)

4myloves
10-29-2009, 06:16 PM
Well, it's been fun.

Gary, the world would be a better place to raise my babies if there were more people like you in it. :hug:

lovinlifex2
10-29-2009, 06:39 PM
Purely out of curiosity, and feel free to deny to answer if you think it's taking the thread in too different a direction :p... why does this "scare" you? Are you scared for yourself (maybe that you'd be seen as "weird") or for other women? Or men? Or is it a religious/moral thing?

I initially meant in reference to cheating as was being discussed in the thread. I don't think the "sex is just sex" should ever be used as an excuse for cheating not to be a big deal. Cheating on your spouse/partner is a huge deal. I saw first hand how it broke up my family and it was very devestating.

I am not scared for myself as I am in a commited relationship, but I have young sons and a daughter who I don't ever want to think that casual sex is ok - I don't want any of my kids to have "friends with benefits". As I stated before I think sex should be something intimate and special that you share with a commited partner whom you care very deeply about. I can't imagine sleeping with random people just because.

I am not overly religious, but I do beileve in god. So, maybe it is a moral issue with me or maybe it was the way we were raised, but sex was always portrayed as something special and that is the way I will be raising my kids. You just have to turn them loose into the world and hope you raised them right I guess.

Does that answer your question?

JerseyGyrl
10-29-2009, 07:30 PM
As I stated before I think sex should be something intimate and special that you share with a commited partner whom you care very deeply about. I can't imagine sleeping with random people just because.

Again, I could not agree more:)

EZMONEY
10-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Well, it's been fun.

Gary, the world would be a better place to raise my babies if there were more people like you in it. :hug:

That just might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me! Thank-you :) :hug:

Growing up I saw what infidelity in marriage could do to your mother. It didn't happen often, just a couple of times....3 that I know of....when I was a baby - then a young teen - then when I was grown and gone....around 24...

and it was always "I'm sorry..it won't ever happen again"....mom always took him back.

Even the last time...when she said never -ever again....but this time his girlfriend kicked him out...he had nowhere to go but home....

guess the other half of the affair wasn't interested in a man that was in the beginning stages of pancreatic cancer....

he came home and died there....

mom took care of him to the very end.

Other than those few times they had a wonderful marriage...honestly...he was a good father...

other than a few affairs....

I was not a christian then, growing up...not until I was in my late 20's. However, I knew from what I saw my mom go through...and how my dad thought it was NO BIG DEAL to have a girlfriend from time to time...for casual sex...

after all...mom was a stick in the mud...too tired after working all day at her job (when she had one...about 1/2 of the time we grew up)...cooking...cleaning...and raising four kids....too tired to seduce her husband at the door when he came home...

maybe she would have been a little more receptive if he didn't come home half butt drunk a lot of the time...later in life...

Anyway I knew I could never do that to someone I loved...never.

I never have...but then I have had sex outside of marriage...

it was not casual...not in the least...they were steady girlfriends...

I grew up in the 60-70's where sex was a pretty free for all...at least in the bunch I hung around with...good kids too....for the most part.

At 55 years old I can look back on a lot of years...a lot of family members...and friends...co-workers...

and see the damage that has been caused by people having sex outside of marriage....

it isn't all devastating...not in the least...

but I can see...and here is where I throw that "religious card" ;)....

I think God had better things in mind for us...

Be careful out there ladies....especially you young ones :hug:

lizziep
10-30-2009, 02:21 AM
be careful indeed. here is how your young child learns to have casual sex. first- at twelve they are forced into going further then they want to with some boy. then they start thinking that's all they're good for and that is all boys want from them. so they fill the role they think they're supposed to play.
then- after a while of people who treat her like trash and throw her away - she falls in love. gives her virginity (or maybe just her heart) to someone who means the world to her. And he also throws her away like trash...
and after that - sex means nothing. Love and sex to not go together.
For me, this is a very abbreviated version of what happened. I have never "made love" to my husband. I will never fully trust him. I do not equate sex with love. They are completely separate, and have to me, in order for me to keep up the walls that I've worked so hard to built around myself. and you know, i'm totally cool with those walls. but i'm also totally cool with people having one night stands, as long as they are using safe sex.
I am also not a christian or any other religion really. But I do know that lying is wrong, no matter what, and it's the one thing that I refuse to accept no matter what. I've tolerated a lot in my life, but I draw the line at lying. And that's really what this debate comes down to.
If a person is a liar, I don't want them in my life. And the sooner I find that out, the better for me. If I was married to a liar for several years before finding out- I would be furious and devastated.

harrismm
10-30-2009, 03:10 AM
....and this, my friends, is exactly why I am an atheist.

Serendipity
10-30-2009, 06:54 AM
Can I just point something out about the Scarlet Letter reference? Not a really good one to use here, if you remember the whole story.

Yes, the man kept quiet and was not judged by society, while Hester went around with the "big red A" and a child to boot. HOWEVER, the man was consumed and driven mad with the guilt of knowing what he did and that he didn't tell or support the woman (Hester) who was injured by his action. Remember how they found him with the "A" he had carved into his own chest, bleeding and raw?

The moral of the story wasn't, "If you screw up, don't tell about it and society doesn't have the right to judge you anyway." It was that when you commit an act that YOU KNOW is wrong, and you don't make amends for having done it, the guilt of that action will be worse than anything society could throw at you for admitting to it and dealing with it.

Quite different from people running around sewing big red A's on people.

And for what it's worth, yes, I've been cheated on, and I'd rather know ASAP instead of hearing about it later, when I "thought" the person I loved had been faithful to me all this time. Kind of like I'd rather know if I have cancer at an early state than to just ignore any signs and deal with it later when it's terminal. But clearly, mileage varies here. ;)

screamingfatgirl
10-30-2009, 07:43 AM
if and when (doubtful this will come to pass) the spouse finds the said person cheated; will it cause more pain then? or would it be less painful to find out now?
...
what do you think?

It depends a lot of the state of the relationship when the discovery is made and the mental state and outlook of the spouse who was cheated on when he or she discovers the truth. It also depends on the type of relationship they have. If the cheater's spouse is the type who is utterly devoted and feels a strong emotional and psychological bond to his or her spouse, it'll hurt more no matter when it happens. If their relationship is less connected, it'll hurt less.

These types of questions are hard to answer well because it's so easy for each of us to project our feelings into the situation. We don't talk about how the other person might feel but rather how we'd feel because we can't put ourselves so thoroughly in another person's shoes.

Generally speaking, I think that the cheater's spouse would feel more cuckolded if told later because the period of time between the cheating the the revelation of the truth would lengthen the time one felt betrayed and as if the relationship carried on under false pretenses. On the other hand, being told now might end the relationship right away. Cheaters who slip up and cheat once don't tell to protect their spouses, and there is something to it. Sometimes living with the lie makes them more devoted spouses as jeopardizing the relationship with their actions makes them treasure it more.

Personally, I can't relate to this very well as my husband and I are exceptionally close and he would never cheat. Yes, I know, every woman thinks that. The truth is that my husband couldn't hide anything from me because I'd know the second he tried. I can tell by the way he takes in a breath that he wants a cup of coffee, has gas or is "in the mood". He is utterly transparent to me emotionally. Beyond that, he's utterly devoted and comes home every night without delay. If I happened to learn he had found a few spare seconds somewhere to cheat, I'd forgive him and get on with life, though it'd probably be a stab to the soul. I don't think that anything can be gained from judging someone belatedly for the person they were.

midwife
10-30-2009, 10:05 AM
I haven't read the entire thread but here are my thoughts...

From a practical point of view, by not sharing this info, she is effectively denying him the opportunity to be tested for STI's. I've handed too many Kleenexes to people who "had a feeling" and came in to be tested, and had their feelings confirmed with a positive STD test. Condoms help but they don't provide 100% protection. He does not have control over his own body at this point because of omission of information.

Second, by keeping control of the decision for him to know or not know or when to know, he doesn't have the opportunity to make decisions about his life, relationship, family and future. He might be very hurt. He might be surprised. He might already know (people are pretty smart). He might want counseling. He might want to make a different choice about his future. He might forgive and work through this...but shoudn't he be allowed the choices about his own life?

I think that self-empowerment is really important.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

ETA: Just reviewed the OP. I think it would be more painful to find out later due to the above. Realizing that one has been denied the opportunity to make informed decisions about one's body and one's future for a significant length of time would be a very painful thing for me.

Jacquie668
10-30-2009, 10:49 AM
Can I just point something out about the Scarlet Letter reference? Not a really good one to use here, if you remember the whole story.

Yes, the man kept quiet and was not judged by society, while Hester went around with the "big red A" and a child to boot. HOWEVER, the man was consumed and driven mad with the guilt of knowing what he did and that he didn't tell or support the woman (Hester) who was injured by his action. Remember how they found him with the "A" he had carved into his own chest, bleeding and raw?

The moral of the story wasn't, "If you screw up, don't tell about it and society doesn't have the right to judge you anyway." It was that when you commit an act that YOU KNOW is wrong, and you don't make amends for having done it, the guilt of that action will be worse than anything society could throw at you for admitting to it and dealing with it.

Quite different from people running around sewing big red A's on people.


Exactly...

sarahyu
10-30-2009, 10:53 AM
IMHO- I'd rather not know if my dh cheated on me. It's only helping them purge their guilty conscience and it would only make me feel bad and not want to trust him anymore. If it's a one time thing and it won't happen again I'd say keep the mouth shut.

dragonwoman64
10-30-2009, 12:27 PM
wow, fascinating thread.

people may or may not say if they've cheated/been cheated on, this is a public forum.

a relationship is an extremely complex dynamic. there can be a million reasons why one of the partners goes outside of the relationship -- from simple temptation to serious emotional need.

I personally don't think the cheater should confess if the motivation is to assauge her/his own guilt. so I'd say the motivation for confession is key in my mind. I agree too that it also can be a situation where the partner being cheated on may very well be aware something is happening, consciously or unconsciously. I think the cheater has to figure out why he/she did it, does he/she want to continue in the relationship, and what he/she has to do to move forward to make that relationship (more) successful. all this is so individual, and I think even more individual to each relationship.

misskimothy
10-30-2009, 12:56 PM
There also seems to be a link common in this thread that confessing somehow equals being truly sorry for their actions. I think we ALL know people who will confess to things and aren't truly sorry. If actions speak louder than words, then the actions of the transgressor will be the key, not the words. Even if the "action of confession" is done, the words really are meaningless UNLESS the contrition is followed up by normally years of impeccable behaviour. In the case of a multiple cheater who goes home after every transgression, there no DOUBT was the usual scene of "I did this. I'm sorry." and so on. However, the confession is meaningless because they just went out and did it again. Talk is cheap, in other words. Confessing is NOT in my humble opinion a true sign of contrition. The only one who know if they are sorry or not and have truly changed is the transgressor. This is why I feel that GIVEN the conditions detailed by the OP in the original post, the act of confession may be more harmful than positive to the relationship as the subsequent actions will be what matter. And if those actions include std testing (which they have), counselling (which they have), and personal contrition, there is nothing positive that a confession can add to this relationship.

JulieJ08
10-30-2009, 01:02 PM
Can I just point something out about the Scarlet Letter reference? Not a really good one to use here, if you remember the whole story.

Yes, the man kept quiet and was not judged by society, while Hester went around with the "big red A" and a child to boot. HOWEVER, the man was consumed and driven mad with the guilt of knowing what he did and that he didn't tell or support the woman (Hester) who was injured by his action. Remember how they found him with the "A" he had carved into his own chest, bleeding and raw?


Quite.

misskimothy
10-30-2009, 01:06 PM
Sounds to me in the example above that the act of confession for the man was to assuage his own guilt about what he did and to assuage his own guilt about how Hester was treated, and not because he was truly sorry for the act itself.
I really hope everything works out for the OPs friend. Tough decisions and choices all around, and so avoidable.

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 04:08 PM
i do know the entire story about hester and the big ole A cut into his chest.

the point i was making is--------------the reverend went thru his (albeit tortured) life with only his OWN self judging him. (seems to support my theory that the cheater is probably suffering enough to make even the most angry of us feel satisfied)

hester TOLD and how was she treated?

she was judged and labeled and shunned.

by her peers.

my question was ---can anyone who is NOT perfect judge and not be JUST as guilty as the person THEY are judging.

and the hester fessed up and was treated in a horrible manner BUT she survived. the reverend didnt confess or repent or atone and he was driven mad by HIS failure to confess to HIS God.

point being?

confession is good for the soul.

but whose?

the confessor?

or the receiver of the confession?
that is the recurring comment made again and again in this thread.

if the CHEATER tells her husband? it should be because she feels it will be best for their marriage and her mental well being.

not to make herself feel better and to prevent US from judging her.

and the most curious and interesting point being made over and over is that if she DOES NOT confess to her husband; regardless of her own religious or moral beliefs--she really isnt sorry.


who the heck says so?

and who died and left you in charge?

your opinion is yours. everyone has one.

but you dont run the world or my life or anyone elses.

i think this thread is so enlightening. and it has led to a great discussion between me and my husband.

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 04:18 PM
from wikipedia


Atonement

It describes how sin can be forgiven by God

Atonement is said to be the process of forgiving or pardoning a transgression.

atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death of Jesus Christ by crucifixion which made possible the reconciliation between God and creation





Confession

The intent of this sacrament is to provide healing for the soul as well as to regain the grace of God, lost by sin.



Repentance


includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.

EZMONEY
10-30-2009, 04:38 PM
......

Repentance


includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.

or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.

Seems to me if she told her husband that she would never do it again...that would enhance the NEVER DO IT AGAIN part...I'm thinkin' she doesn't tell...what's to change her from doing it again if the opportunity arises...after all she wasn't caught before...

You seemed to jump on people for their religious views then you keep coming back with religious information...christian.

Is this woman a christian?

Why is this woman so afraid to tell her husband?

What ever happened to for better or worse...

this is pretty worse.

dragonwoman64
10-30-2009, 04:55 PM
(1) John 7:53-8:11

/7:53/ Then each of them went home, /8:1/ while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. /8:2/ Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. /8:3/ The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, /8:4/ they said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. /8:5/ Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" /8:6/ They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. /8:7/ When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." /8:8/ And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. /8:9/ When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. /8:10/ Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" /8:11/ She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again."

Scarlet Letter is about Puritans after all... People screw up constantly. seems to me your better off trying to deal with things in the most adult way possible, leading to the most mature outcome for all involved. it's more of a challenge to be compassionate and empathetic than to be morally superior.

kaplods
10-30-2009, 04:57 PM
There's a big difference between judging a person and judging the action, or having an opinion on Right and Wrong (especially since we're talking about a situation apart from the individual - we don't know the individual, so we are all speaking in the abstract).

If were speaking TO the cheater, most of us would be less blunt - but regardless it doesn't change the morality of the choice (for most of us).

If my seven year old nephew lies to his mother, or takes something without permission (even a cookie from the cookie jar before dinner, because he knows it's against the rules). The right thing for him to do is to admit it, and try not to do it again. He may choose not to confess, and his behavior may never be discovered. Or - it may be discovered and he may be punished for it by his parents (or he may punish himself with the guilt he feels for breaking the rules).

No matter the result, even if his parents punish him, it does not mean that his parents are "judging" him. Punishment can be nonjudgemental.

Having an opinion on the RIGHT thing to do, does not mean we are judging the person. We may understand and even empathize (and may even have experienced ourselves either as the victim or the offended) and still feel a particular action is either wrong or right.

In fact, when it comes to morality (which is independent from religion, though often entwined), it's necessary for a society to have a group morality - an agreement on what is right, what is wrong, and what the "appropriate" response is to wrong behavior (both on the part of the person making the offense, and on the part of the offended, and on the part of society as a whole).

Otherwise, everything is ok - and we have no right to judge or punish anyone, so we shouldn't jail even the pedophile child rapists because "who are we to judge."

My religion and personal morality tells me that I should not judge even the child rapist - that doesn't mean that I shouldn't judge the behavior or have an opinion on the right and wrong of the situation.

As a probation officer, I found myself in the very weird position of feeling compassion for a pedophile. They aren't ugly men in dirty raincoats - they're men and women who have deep psychological issues, but are generally otherwise apparently normal people. It's hard to understand how people "so normal" can make those choices. Feeling compassion for them doesn't mean I didn't judge the behavior or hold them to consequences deemed appropriate by the legal system.

One particular man had such a horrific childhood and in some ways had tried very hard not to offend was such a risk to the community that I had to recommend that he be sentenced to life in prison, ideally a psychiatric prison, but that he never be released into the public again. I actually felt bad that this man might have to spend his life in prison, even though I knew it was what was probably best for both him and the entire community. When he was sentenced to life in prison, I was both sad and relieved.

Having an opinion on the RIGHT course of action, does not mean judgement.
It doesn't mean she's a horrible person if she makes a choice that any of us feel is morally wrong. I can empathise with any choice she makes, but that doesn't make them all equally good choices.

Having a moral code means that you don't just think - that you are certain that some choices are good, and some are bad. And everyone has one (a moral code) - whether or not they have any religious beliefs. Having a belief - even a conviction that certain choices are the right ones (and even a belief or conviction about the results of wrong choices) is not the same as judgement.

I can feel complete compassion for the cheater, and yet still believe her actions are wrong and will have severe consequences (regardless of her choice) and furthermore feel she has a responsibility to make a specific decision. That doesn't mean I condemn or judge her if she makes a different choice.

If judgement means we should never tell anyone what they SHOULD do, and have no right to impede on another's choice or even to punish behavior (because after all, we have no right to judge) - that means anyone can do anything any time without any expectation of consequences.

I do feel compassion for the cheater, but it doesn't change my opinion on what the "right thing to do," is. If she doesn't take the course of action I feel is right, I don't think she's a bad person or deserves to suffer because of it. I still would give her my honest opinion - if she asked - as to what she should do and why (personally I'd have to have a lot more information than I've received in this forum, but I also understand that some people's moral codes may be somewhat different - I'm not judging them either).

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 05:50 PM
thank you, kaplods.

the below is not directed at any one person. it is meant to make you think and comment if you wish.

to have an opinion is just that-but to say (imply or whatever words you want to use) if she doesnt do * fill in blank* (according to MY moral code or religious beliefs or personal "i think she should" ; she isnt really sorry or there is no way for her to have a happy successful marriage and that she is IN THE WRONG. no gray area and no no extenuating circumstances.

THAT IS JUDGING.

and i am not condemning anyone for judging. read back thru my comments.

i just asked if you see yourself in the "judging" category?
when you meet your maker, your God, your higher power, your karma

what will they have to say to you about your actions?

and if you are comfortable with your possible consequences?


who i am to judge you?

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 05:59 PM
hey EZ?

at no time did i mean to jump on anyone for their religious beliefs. if i came across that way?

i apologize.

what i was responding to was the implication that if someone doesnt do what WE believe?

regardless of what they believe?

to say they are wrong is a judgement.

to preface it with "according to the doctrines of MY church, temple, whatever what she would have to do in order to be forgiven and to have shown true repentance and to regained the favor of my God, higher power, karma, etc is........"

that is a statement and may be fact, if the writer is correct.

that is what i was trying to get scross.

and EZ?
i like you and i respect you.
i would like to know if you can see the other side tho?

what if this woman is a christian but a baby one?
what if she had a horrific abusive childhood which cause her to equate sex with shame and power?

i have no idea if theses things are true.

but what if they were?

changes things a bit, doesnt it?

EZMONEY
10-30-2009, 06:27 PM
:hug: Absolutely no hard feelings here mrs dorson :)

Ones that know me around here know I like it when things get :stir: up a bit ;)

Back to the original question...I feel the woman should tell her husband because I really feel he has a right to know...it is such a betrayal to a marriage....one that can't be overcome?...absolutely not...

Again my "bible" talk only came into play when a poster said repentance was between her and her maker...and I said I believe, as my church does, that true repentance is that and where possible one confronts the one they sinned against...

that was it...

in no way did I even think of condemnation for the woman....all of my thoughts were based on how I think I would feel and what I saw between my mom and dad growing up.

I never judged this woman...

and I don't think most here have...

if all of us here answered here that "not telling" was what we thought would that make all of us non-judgemental?

As far as the woman being christian or not doesn't make a difference to me in what she should do. I was just wondering why all of those posts from you when it seemed to offend you in some way that I posted them. And to answer all of the "what if" questions wouldn't really matter if they were not true...so...as one poster said...and I also wondered before she posted it...

""You writing a book girl?" ;)

kaplods
10-30-2009, 06:40 PM
what if she had a horrific abusive childhood which cause her to equate sex with shame and power.... changes things a bit, doesnt it?

Does it really? Does it change what the RIGHT thing to do is? Is there really no right and wrong? Is everything just a subjective "judgement?"

Am I being judgemental if I say "child sexual abuse is wrong," or do I need to say "In accordance with my religious and moral beliefs, I am of the opinion that chid sexual abuse is wrong?"

I would argue that if I say the latter - I can't "believe" it too strongly. If I have doubts about the validity of my moral convictions - they're not convictions. They're not even a very strong belief. They're at best a guess or worse, completely random.

And I know it's harsh to compare infidelity to child abuse - but it could just as easily be the cookie from the cookie jar, or a little "white" lie. If you "think it's wrong," it's not a moral conviction - it's only a conviction if you KNOW it's wrong.

Also, if we're going to play "what if" (what if... she had a horrific abusive childhood) then why not play it out...

What if... her husband had a traumatic childhood because his mother's or father's infidelity?

What if... her husband is abusive and if she tells, he might harm/kill her?

You can't discuss what a person "should" do in a situation like this without knowing the specifics (which is why the woman's counselor and clergy should be advising her, not a coworker or strangers on a weight loss board.)

That being said, in this arena (talking about a situation in the abstract) it's perfectly appropriate to discuss not only opinions, but moral beliefs and convictions as well.

Serendipity
10-30-2009, 09:14 PM
If my opinion is that I believe cheating is detrimental to a relationship, and that honesty is necessary for a relationship to be healthy, it is exactly that. An opinion. Your opinion is that the statement is a judgment -- you perceive it to be so, even when several people are telling you they are not judging. So, you judge the people who don't give you the answer you want by arguing that they "shouldn't be so judgmental"....it's a ridiculous circle. (Yes, that's my opinion again!)

If you ask for opinions on an open forum, you're going to get a wide variety of answers, and they're not all going to stay exactly to the point that you originally referenced. I think it's been a very interesting discussion, but I'll be honest, I'm feeling like I'm starting to get preached at. You may feel that it's wrong to judge another person or an act or whatever, but I happen to feel that God gave us brains, common sense, and wisdom and fully expects us to use all of the above to make serious decisions about right and wrong (i.e. exercising our judgment). I understand that she's your friend and she confided in you, and you believe that this is a one-time thing and that she's shown remorse and fears her marriage will end if this all gets out, but you don't seem to like hearing that her fears are based upon the fact that she 1. did something damaging to her relationship by cheating even it if is just that once and 2. isn't being honest with her spouse, and is not sure when the "right time" would be to come clean. There is never a right time. I'm not judging her, I'm sure that she's probably a very loving, caring, good-for-the-world person. But that doesn't mean that she didn't make a mistake, and that the mistake she made will likely hurt someone she loves. That's not a judgment or condemnation of her, that's a fact, and she stated that to you herself.

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 11:19 PM
thank you ,EZ.

and no hard feeling here either.. and no on the book. but maybe one day.......... lol.

kaplods?

interestng rebuttal. and the what ifs? were/are me being me.

i do wonder (and sometimes out loud ) if what we are so SURE is the right thing? becomes "maybe not so much the right thing" when a crucial bit of info comes to light.

is a bit like a mystery story to me. along the lines of "if this equals that given this and this"? what does it equals if one adds a dash of maybe and splash of "in the past"?

serendipity?

you are asolutely totaly 100% correct!

me saying "if you do this" IS judging!!!

and me pointing a finger at someone (lets say EZ, he is a strong guy lol) and saying "you are doing this and it is wrong cause it goes aganist MY moral code" IS JUDGING.

but me asking when (typed if first but i know EZ is going) he is at the pearly gates and God (this term only used cause EZ is a christian) himself looks EZ in the face and asks him about his treatment of this woman (who is really a metaphor for how society treats US); will EZ be ok with how HIS God percieves his behavior?

that is simply me asking for not a defense of actions but more of "how sure are you that how you are behaving is REALLY how you say/think/believe you believe you should.

in short---you talk the talk but are you gonna walk the walk?

if a person believes that the cheater is morally corrupt (my words-not used by any others) and her only pathway to true forgiveness and redemption and repentance (which HAS been implied) is to tell her spouse and says that? to themselves or others or the cheater?

believing it is a right. we are all entitled to our own beliefs and opinions.

but isnt also a judgement?

and if it is? me saying you are that you are judging is a judgement

so it is a circle. you juding the cheater, me judging you judging the cheater and you judging me for judging you and not judging the cheater.

what if we didnt judge? (unless that is out profession) and just observed? allowed others to go dwn their own path and didnt intefere?

what would happen?

can you legislate morality?
i think not.

do morals influence our laws?
absolutely.

so if the cheater contracted a STD (lets say AIDS) and gave it to her husband and he died.

(this is not true and is used for a reference point ONLY).

was she morally wrong to cheat?
most of us say yes.

was she morally wrong to not tell him?
too many shades of yes,no, maybes and only in this situation to make a absolute statement.

but if the cheaters husband dies cause she cheated and gave him AIDS?
is she a muderess?. and has she broken any laws? and is she now LEGALLy wrong?
i say yes.

but is she MORALLY wrong?
if she knowingly gives him something that could be medically treated and doesnt tell because of repercussions--yes.

if that isnt a possibility (flatout isnt possible in this situation--its my story so go with it a minute-ok)

then i say she has to choose her own morality--i cant cause i am not her.

i say that morals are personally defined and legal ramifications are totally seperate.



and if i was verging on "preachy"

so sorry. i am really enjoying the responses and the twists and tuns the discussion takes.

but i do get that i AM judging when i say and think or feel 'you shouldnt judge the cheater".

does anyone else?

EZMONEY
10-30-2009, 11:39 PM
..............
but me asking when (typed if first but i know EZ is going) he is at the pearly gates and God (this term only used cause EZ is a christian) himself looks EZ in the face and asks him about his treatment of this woman (who is really a metaphor for how society treats US); will EZ be ok with how HIS God percieves his behavior?


Actually my God will see me as perfect...but only because of the person and work of Jesus Christ :)

As far as how I view women...well lets just say I like to view women and leave it at that....;)

Angie sneaks in here from time to time....I know exactly where I stand!

wherever she tells me to :)

What I want to know now is ............

was the affair with another man or woman?

and

what if that person tells...or are they not involved with someone?

EZMONEY
10-30-2009, 11:40 PM
Serendipity...LOVE your posts!

EZMONEY
10-30-2009, 11:41 PM
Some of you gals ROCK on your posts here....too many to single out tonight...

back to date night...coming babe....

mrs dorson
10-30-2009, 11:47 PM
EZ!!!



i love the way your mind works!!

first i meant when you and God have a face to face about your opinion of "the cheater". i have no doubt that you will feel you are on solid ground morally. you were the best example i could use cause you wont waver.

you WALK the talk.

is a good thing.

and the other person was a man. cheater is a girl. and i dont know if "cheaer with" would tell. i think not.

from what the cheater says about "cheater with"; she was a blip on his radar screen.

she hasnt shared anymore info with me since that initial conversation. she has tried but i tell her i love her and i will always be her friend but SHE has to decide the right and wrong.


she asked me what i would do.

i told her i would answer that in 6 months.

she understood why but was still cranky with me.

BerkshireGrl
10-31-2009, 12:30 AM
I have a headache :P

kaplods
10-31-2009, 01:57 AM
what if we didnt judge? (unless that is out profession) and just observed? allowed others to go dwn their own path and didnt intefere?...what would happen?

Ultimately we get a society which stops believing in a common morality. If we're all going to just sit back and observe when someone does something that we see as wrong - something we see as being hurtful to another person or people, or even to the person themselves and keep our opinions to ourselves, it becomes a tacit approval of any and all behavior. Without what you're calling judgement - there is no right and wrong - and hey if you see someone being abused, raped or murdered - who are you to judge - just observe and see what happens.

We know what happens. There's quite a bit of statistical and research data on that one - when people do not "judge" destructive behavior - destructive behavior increases.

Tolerance, compassion, with-holding judgement are only "good" to a point, there's also a point when they become a cop-out, a way for people to shirk social responsibility (not my problem, not my place to judge).

Until fairly recently, "what goes on behind closed doors," wasn't anyone else's business. And spousal, elder, and child abuse were rampant.

I say we are our brother's keepers. We're responsible for each other, and when we see someone being hurt and victimized by someone else, it IS our business. Ideally, interventions are done with compassion to everyone - which is difficult, a pain in the butt and and time-consuming, but to say there are no absolutes and that observing is a virtue - I don't buy it.


can you legislate morality?
i think not.
do morals influence our laws?
absolutely.


I would argue that nearly all laws are not just influenced by morality - most not only reflect, they ARE morality. Laws are created, because we as a society have agreed that some things ARE wrong, and "how wrong" we see them is reflected in the punishments that are assigned to each law (we don't assign the death penalty for unpaid traffic tickets).

Yes, each individual creates their own moral code - and that is a free choice. A person can choose to believe that killing anyone they wish to, any time they wish to, is perfectly ok. They can choose to believe that nothing they do is wrong.

But, society disagrees. A person who has ONLY a personal morality and no social morality is called a sociopath.
_______

What we haven't discussed here, is whether anyone besides the wife is obligated to tell the husband of the affair if she does not?

If you knew that your friend's husband was having an affair, would you have told her?

If she was obsessing about what she should do, and you knew that he had had an affair, would you tell her then?

If you knew that sexually transmitted diseases were definitely involved, would it be your responsibility then?

___

We've talked alot about taking religion out of the equation. We've talked about taking judgement out of the equation. We've talked about taking law out of the equation. We've talked about taking the offended party (the husband) out of the equation.

None of those are possible. They are all invariable linked. Everyone, regardless of religious belief - or lack of religious belief are influenced by the moral code of the society in which they are raised, and the religion and moral codes of their progenitors and their progenitors' progenitors.

We cannot escape social morality, and in virtually all societies the greater good has to be considered. We are obligated to consider the consequences not only of the individual, but to others and the whole group as well.

I would be very angry at any friend (my husband's friend, my friend, our friend) who knew my husband was having an affair, and didn't do anything (confront him, suggest counseling, tell me... something). Not because I would want my husband caught and punished, but because I would want them to care enough about us not to want either of us to be hurt.

I really didn't feel it was appropriate to share my husband and my discussion on this matter, but I think it is pertinent, to show why I believe morality matters (and not just an individual morality, but a group morality).

When we were dating, and first began discussing marriage, I brought the issue up. I told my husband that if there was little chance of him getting caught, and little chance of him having passed on an STD to me, that I would rather NOT know (not a matter of now or later, but a matter of now or never), but if the guilt would not let him choose never, or if there was a chance of someone else telling me, I'd want to hear it from him and the sooner the better.

My husband told me that he thought I was WRONG. He didn't feel that "not telling" should be an option. That whether or not I knew about it, concealing an affair was essentially a lack of trust of the other person and of the marriage. Not any different than hiding excessive expenses on a credit card, or lying about spending the rent money on gambling or drugs.

We agreed that we WOULD tell the other person - not only after hurting the marriage in any way - but when we were tempted to... BEFORE anyone got hurt or would be put in the position of lying.

So far, we haven't had to test our principles. We have made mistakes that can hurt our marriage, and we've not always mentioned it in the temptation stage (though luckily, they've all been very minor blows to our personal integrety and trust... spending on a larger purchase without consulting the other first, or making plans for "us" without the other's input or consent...small things, but if we're not able to be open and honest with small things, what hope do we have for large things).

I don't know what the friend's relationship is with her husband. I don't know whether they discussed their expectations and values with each other (I sure would hope so), but to say the morality of the situation is completely subjective, and open to individual interpretation, for the most part I would passionately disagree.

To a certain extent we all ARE responsible for one another. While we may not be in a position to get involved (if our choice of action, inaction or advice is likely to harm anyone more than help), we can (and maybe are even obligated, depending upon the situation and our own moral code - and the moral code of the society to which we belong) advise the person to carefully consider their choice and the potential consequences.

If that's judgement, so be it. Our society wouldn't last long without it. Anarchy isn't pretty.

Serendipity
10-31-2009, 05:50 AM
In order to survive as a society, some aspects of each individual's moral code have to be congruent with others. Yes, we all have individual flavors, and yes, morality and ethics can be VERY complicated, but at the end of the day, we need to be able to agree that there are some things which as a society we do not find acceptable. Those things tend to be prescribed by law (not always, and sometimes law doesn't catch up with changing morals and vice versa). But we have to have SOMETHING in common, or we end up with a society where everyone is just out for themselves and can justify any behavior, no matter how reprehensible, but simply saying, "Hey, according to my moral code, I'm doing nothing wrong, and you have no right to judge me!"

Really?

Is that the world you want to live in?

You can love the person who is doing something destructive, and still feel that the act they are committing is wrong. They may not agree, but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is morally right because they say so. There are people in the world who either have NO sense of moral imperative (sociopaths), a limited sense of morality, or one in which they can rationalize behavior that even they feel is wrong morally.

mrs dorson
10-31-2009, 01:30 PM
BRAVO!!!

Serendipity--very well said! and i dont think i would like a world like that.

the word kaplods used:
ANARCHY
A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder).



is not what i want. but it brings me to the same thought as before.

when do the rules of society begin to infringe on the liberty of the individual?

if everyone in this thread says the cheater should tell?

can we make her?

can we take the decision from her (getting to your questions-kaplods)

are we sure that our following the moral code leads to good choices?

how?

and kaplods?

sigh...

i dunno. i believe i wouldnt want to know. but i am a chicken and hate confrontation. my husband? if it ever happens (i hope never for either of us)- he would tell and it would be best for me to tell.

and would i tell?

again the chicken speaks....if there was a possibility of illness or if i was friends with them both?

i believe i would find a way to work it into the conversation.

would my husband tell?

NOPE.

and he doesnt want to hear from anyone esle.

he will figure it out. (so he says).

that seems contradictory to me.

EZMONEY
10-31-2009, 01:40 PM
This moral code that keeps being brought up...sounds a lot like God's Ten Commandments for us..

you know...the laws that ...if we all lived by...

would make the world a better place...

mrs dorson
10-31-2009, 01:43 PM
oooooooooooo!

EZ, you are a mind reader.

i have another question in mind concerning those!

but i think i will wait a bit as i certainly am NOT trying to be hurtful.

just thought provoking.

we will see.

mrs dorson
10-31-2009, 02:00 PM
a PM sent to suzanne

in case i was/am out of line.

in regard to my threads on "general chatter"

i do not see any harm in the quesions i asked.

and while the debate got spirited and the tone was sometimes fierce?

no one called names and no one was banished.

it was insightful and interesting.

but if you as the moderator of the board feel i was out of line?

pleae remove it.

but if we dont talk about difficult subjects?

how can we grow?

thank you

EZMONEY
10-31-2009, 02:02 PM
Thinking through on how a situation like this would affect my life I hav come to the conclusion that...

#1 ~ It would not :no: ruin my marriage (if it was indeed a one-time thing)

and

#2 ~ It would totally :yes: ruin my marriage (if it was indeed a one-time thing)

I am a pretty forgiving person....after I get revenge :s:

Angie and I have been married for almost 14 years...for I would say in all honesty...95% of it has been wonderful....there was a time...since past that it was rough...real rough...a couple of times. These times always concerned my step-daughter. We still have issues with her...mostly Angie...but we don't have issues with each other over her anymore....we absolutely refuse to! We both have "matured" on how to handle those situations....I have learned to let things go and she has learned to...well...she has learned a lot ;)

My point? :shrug:

I would hope that even knowing adultery is something God allows divorce over (because of the harm and lasting issues it causes people) that I would be forgiving and be able to "let it go"....as would be God's first choice for me...I think.

If it happened today I can say I might be able to do that.....

I can also say that if it had happened back in the above situations in my life...I probably would have taken the "easy way out?" and followed through with divorce...it would have sealed the deal on this second marriage...

it didn't and I had a wonderful walk to Starbucks with my wife this morning....with the spoiled brats of course...and will enjoy the evening at church on Trunk or Treat Night :haphal:

mrs dorson
10-31-2009, 02:06 PM
EZ?

you are one smart man.
and my husband seconds exactly what you said.

it wouldnt cause the END of our marriage.

but we would have a DIFFERENT marriage.

maybe better but maybe not.

you cant unsalt the soup so to speak.

dragonwoman64
10-31-2009, 02:27 PM
Tolerance, compassion, with-holding judgement are only "good" to a point, there's also a point when they become a cop-out, a way for people to shirk social responsibility (not my problem, not my place to judge).

I say we are our brother's keepers. We're responsible for each other, and when we see someone being hurt and victimized by someone else, it IS our business. Ideally, interventions are done with compassion to everyone - which is difficult, a pain in the butt and and time-consuming, but to say there are no absolutes and that observing is a virtue - I don't buy it.

What we haven't discussed here, is whether anyone besides the wife is obligated to tell the husband of the affair if she does not?

To a certain extent we all ARE responsible for one another. While we may not be in a position to get involved (if our choice of action, inaction or advice is likely to harm anyone more than help), we can (and maybe are even obligated, depending upon the situation and our own moral code - and the moral code of the society to which we belong) advise the person to carefully consider their choice and the potential consequences.

If that's judgement, so be it. Our society wouldn't last long without it. Anarchy isn't pretty.

you're one smart lady. I agree with what you say. I'm a practicing Catholic, I go to church just about every Sunday. I have a set idea of right and wrong. I take the moral code seriously, and consider it an enhancement in my life. (I'm also not perfect.) I was responding to how in my mind I saw this particular woman's situation from how it was described. Truth is, I don't know her, her motivations, extenuating circumstances, level of maturity, commitment to her relationship, anything.

I understand the argument morally wrong is wrong, no matter the circumstances. I don't believe going outside a relationship to another person is a good way (morally or psychologically or emotionally) to solve a problem within a relationship (or even a problem that an individual is experiencing who's in a committed relationship -- why? bec you end up piling an additional problem on top of what you're already experiencing, along with all the other considerations, how you affect someone you feel a deep attachment/love for).

that said, my heart and experience, hearing different peoples' stories makes me pause. life gets complicated. A friend of mine told me his story recently, and I can't share it here, but with all my beliefs, I can't find it in me to fault or judge him for looking for relief outside his marriage in his circumstances. He's a person who's exceptionally supportive of other people and contributes to the world around him in many ways. that was all on my mind when I replied.

Serendipity
11-01-2009, 01:13 AM
BRAVO!!!

is not what i want. but it brings me to the same thought as before.

when do the rules of society begin to infringe on the liberty of the individual?

if everyone in this thread says the cheater should tell?

can we make her?


I don't think anyone could force her to tell the truth of the situation to her husband. It's kind of like medicine -- as a doctor or nurse, you can explain until you're blue in the face that a certain medicine can help for a certain illness, but the patient always has the right to refuse, even if it kills them. In this case, you could talk to your friend, but she has the right to refuse your advice, even if doing so could prove self-destructive. The only way to force the issue would be to tell her husband yourself, and that opens up a whole slew of other issues!


are we sure that our following the moral code leads to good choices?


Sometimes there are no good choices. In this case, your friend has done something which could harm her marriage to some extent (perhaps destroy it) should her husband find out. So the choices seem to be 1. she can tell him immediately, hurt him, and probably hurt herself as well 2. she can tell him later, hurt him more (IMO), and probably hurt herself as well, or 3. keep it quiet, pray someone else doesn't tell, and live with the knowledge that she betrayed her husband's trust. None of those seem particularly good to me. Sometimes the best you can do is work to minimize harm from actions that you've committed, and hope for the best.