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juliastl27
08-19-2009, 10:44 PM
so im watching this 2 hour special on fox. what do you guys think about this? this woman comes off extremely irresponsible. she doesnt seem unintelligent, but she is a bit dim about raising 14 children. i feel somewhat bad for these kids.


sunflowergirl68
08-19-2009, 11:19 PM
I refuse to watch or read anything with her in it.

I just don't understand her. She accepts donations like diapers and clothing, but then turns around and donates them to churches or other charities. People need to ignore her, it's apparent that she just loves being in the media spotlight.

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:27 PM
I saw a special on TLC or something about families with atleast 12 children and they have these annual meetings...kinda like networking...Im not a very judgmental person so I dont judge her.....I think the only reason people have sucha problem with her is because hows shes portrayed in the media...My husbands grandmother had 12 kids! Yes 12 and no one boycotted her home....She has 14 kids so what! I dont get why Americans are always so preoccupied with others lives.....Feeding the media and the fact that majority of the time they ALWAYS have something negative to say...

I doubt that her having 14 kids has showed up on our pay checks.....I just think we should be more about helping her and not discouraging her...And yes she is educated...a bachelors or masters in psychology...Shes very intelligent..maybe her parents sucked! And she felt like having kids was the only way she could be loved...Look at if from a EMPATHETIC point of view...and not a SYMPATHETIC or judgmental point of view....


sunflowergirl68
08-19-2009, 11:34 PM
I saw a special on TLC or something about families with atleast 12 children and they have these annual meetings...kinda like networking...Im not a very judgmental person so I dont judge her.....I think the only reason people have sucha problem with her is because hows shes portrayed in the media...My husbands grandmother had 12 kids! Yes 12 and no one boycotted her home....She has 14 kids so what! I dont get why Americans are always so preoccupied with others lives.....Feeding the media and the fact that majority of the time they ALWAYS have something negative to say...

I doubt that her having 14 kids has showed up on our pay checks.....I just think we should be more about helping her and not discouraging her...And yes she is educated...a bachelors or masters in psychology...Shes very intelligent..maybe her parents sucked! And she felt like having kids was the only way she could be loved...Look at if from a EMPATHETIC point of view...and not a SYMPATHETIC or judgmental point of view....



It's not that she's being criticized because she has 14 kids, it's because they were all conceived with fertility treatments, she's single, and she's unemployed. If you're unemployed and on disability, you should not have 14 kids, because kids are expensive (and if you can't work, you can't support them), and pay for said fertility treatments with your disability checks. Pregnancy is disabling in and of itself.

it's more people being concerned about the welfare of her children (two of which have autism). It is extremely irresponsible to have that many children if you are single and unemployed. And it also brings into question medical ethics and the nature of IVF, and how much is too much.

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:36 PM
you had to see it to believe it.Wow.I would have whooped them kids like its noones business.ridiculous.Them kids dont have a chance with that kind of parenting.

EZMONEY
08-19-2009, 11:38 PM
it's a comedy right?

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:39 PM
Not judging her for having 14 kids.I dont think she could handle parenting 1.Those kids were OUT OF CONTROL.And I am not talking about the infants.Masters degree?Just goes to show that does not equal intelligence.Seriously, watch this show before commenting.You will probably change your opinion.

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:40 PM
EZ-It was definately a comedy.A very sad, tragic, comedy.Oxymoron?Or just Moron?lol.

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:41 PM
It's not that she's being criticized because she has 14 kids, it's because they were all conceived with fertility treatments, she's single, and she's unemployed. If you're unemployed and on disability, you should not have 14 kids, because kids are expensive (and if you can't work, you can't support them), and pay for said fertility treatments with your disability checks. Pregnancy is disabling in and of itself.

it's more people being concerned about the welfare of her children (two of which have autism). It is extremely irresponsible to have that many children if you are single and unemployed. And it also brings into question medical ethics and the nature of IVF, and how much is too much.

I get what your saying and she does crave attention....BUT...I just think people should dislike someone they only know from TV....I hope she does well...She always took care of her other kids....with lots of love...Yes she went to extremes to get more attention but I think we should just observe because the kids are already here....Theres nothing you can do...

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:44 PM
I agree.The kids are here....swearing, smacking her and other, misbehaving,mouthy...I can not believe she would allow that to even be televised.I was embarrassed for her.She is so out of touch with reality.Dr. Phil hit the nail on the head with her.

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:45 PM
Not judging her for having 14 kids.I dont think she could handle parenting 1.Those kids were OUT OF CONTROL.And I am not talking about the infants.Masters degree?Just goes to show that does not equal intelligence.Seriously, watch this show before commenting.You will probably change your opinion.

If your trying to comment on my take...I know degree doesnt mean intelligence...Well aware of that...And my "opinion" is that its her life...Im watching it right now...She does have it hard...why cant we be empathetic..I look at things from more than just an angry point of view...The kids were out of control but so are my 3 neices! They kick me and hit me and pull my hair...Please tell me this isnt the first time you have seen an out of control child?

EZMONEY
08-19-2009, 11:46 PM
I made a bad sad joke....I am just 2 hours from her...we saw it happening on the local news when she had the babies, while working out of town....the story is old for me.

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:47 PM
No.I also have a masters in nursing(as do you Right?)I have done pleanty of clinical work with mental health adolescents.

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:47 PM
And I also have 3 teenage boys.

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:48 PM
I agree.The kids are here....swearing, smacking her and other, misbehaving,mouthy...I can not believe she would allow that to even be televised.I was embarrassed for her.She is so out of touch with reality.Dr. Phil hit the nail on the head with her.

The kids at my daughters school do the same thing...I am going to take them out of the school...but my point is this isnt at all uncomon...I saw this lady in the store and her son was kicking the shi#$ out of her! All she said was "stop that brad!"....yea ok! He would have gotten smacked! I hope she gets better and finds a way to handle them...For their sake...Maybe hire a nanny? or 3?

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:52 PM
No.I also have a masters in nursing(as do you Right?)I have done pleanty of clinical work with mental health adolescents.

as do I? Is that supposed to be insulting or literal?...No not a masters yet...going for it now...I have a degree in psych though...I understand alot of it...Im just saying stop being so critical.....Look at her...shes going through some serious crap! She did it to herself but she is still human....And we can make some strange mistakes...

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:52 PM
I agree with you.Unfortunately what I have seen in my profession tells me that the odds are not good for these children.She appears to not be stable mentally and that is very sad.

EZMONEY
08-19-2009, 11:53 PM
ok you got my interest...I turned it on...

so she didn't have work on those lips....right....

she doesn't want attention....right....

2 minutes in and changing the channel....

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:54 PM
EZ-staytuned for the 2 year old screaming "*****".It gets better.......

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:56 PM
I agree with you.Unfortunately what I have seen in my profession tells me that the odds are not good for these children.She appears to not be stable mentally and that is very sad.

I know...I see that she is going to have her work cut out for her....Im sure her kids may or may not have a hard life...My husbands aunts and uncles are like a cult! VERY and strangely close but for the most part fine...His grandfather was an abusive alcoholic...I hope for the best for her...thats all I have to say....

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:57 PM
I was just referring to your previous post about going to school.No offence.My point is, you should understand what is required to receive a masters in nursing.I was trying to explain to you that I am not pointing fingers at her for no good reason.I have seen the aftermath of this type of parenting.I DO hope she gets help, soon.But it is really had to help someone that does not think she has a problem.

kiahna23
08-19-2009, 11:58 PM
ok you got my interest...I turned it on...

so she didn't have work on those lips....right....

she doesn't want attention....right....

2 minutes in and changing the channel....

She changed her whole appearance...that was apparent after the Dr. Phil show....She looked TOTALLY different...She craves attention as I said earlier...Maybe child hood trauma maybe not....She is the product of a fallen and corrupt society...Her case is extreme....but she needs help...

harrismm
08-19-2009, 11:59 PM
And like I said, having 14 children is not her problem.I have a friend with 9.Its not a number issue at all with me.But if you watched the show you would see how totally out of control she is.I hope someone intervenes after seeing the 2 hour special.

EZMONEY
08-20-2009, 12:02 AM
HEY K....just a quick one here...my response was in NO WAY directed at you...it was at her when she said nothing to her lips....riiiiight and doesn't want attention....riiiiight

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:03 AM
I was just referring to your previous post about going to school.No offence.My point is, you should understand what is required to receive a masters in nursing.I was trying to explain to you that I am not pointing fingers at her for no good reason.I have seen the aftermath of this type of parenting.I DO hope she gets help, soon.But it is really had to help someone that does not think she has a problem.

I know the work it takes...Im going for it now! And going nutts! CRNA is my major...I have 4 kids...8, 6, 2, and 1 year.....Its expensive and time consuming....But I still maintain my 3.9....I just like to try and see outside of disappointment....Maybe because I have been judged so much...I was 16 and had a baby and another at 18 followed by 2 more...I have been raped and molested and abused as a child..It makes me want to help people...I cant help it...Im hold the weight of the world on my shoulders...

EZMONEY
08-20-2009, 12:03 AM
did her kid just call her the b word....goodness

EZMONEY
08-20-2009, 12:05 AM
I know the work it takes...Im going for it now! And going nutts! CRNA is my major...I have 4 kids...8, 6, 2, and 1 year.....Its expensive and time consuming....But I still maintain my 3.9....I just like to try and see outside of disappointment....Maybe because I have been judged so much...I was 16 and had a baby and another at 18 followed by 2 more...I have been raped and molested and abused as a child..It makes me want to help people...I cant help it...Im hold the weight of the world on my shoulders...

I will now call you SUPER K! :hug:

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:05 AM
And like I said, having 14 children is not her problem.I have a friend with 9.Its not a number issue at all with me.But if you watched the show you would see how totally out of control she is.I hope someone intervenes after seeing the 2 hour special.

Yes they should intervene but not take them away...Maybe provide some type of 24 hour assistance....TO get them in line...My husbands grandmother did well with her 12 and she had only her husbands income...He drank alot...and he was abusive to her...

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:06 AM
I will now call you SUPER K! :hug:

your making me laugh...you are silly....thanks though...

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:10 AM
did her kid just call her the b word....goodness

I see that all the time...Im glad thats th eone thing my babies dont do...I would be so hurt...Their noisy and bratty but they try to be good...

EZMONEY
08-20-2009, 12:12 AM
your making me laugh...you are silly....thanks though...

I am glad I make you laugh


but

SUPER K is with the same respect I give my children for their efforts in school! One a high school teacher and one a scientist...both graduated college magna cum laude with honors...so SUPER K it is!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

harrismm
08-20-2009, 12:16 AM
Kiahna-I do understand.i really do!!I also went in to nursing to help people.What I have learned is that I cant fix everyone.Trust me, I tried many times when i first started my career.I have seen horrible situations, sad situations.Yes, people choose their own lifestyle.Its just that I have seen many children with virtually no chance of a normal life because of their lack of parenting.That is very frustrating.Hopefully someone will help these children....which would only put a dent in the mass numbers of misguided parents out there.No one is perfect.I understand that.And you....should be pround of yourself.You are a success story.Take care of you though.Major burnout in this profession!!!

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 12:42 AM
I get what your saying and she does crave attention....BUT...I just think people should dislike someone they only know from TV....I hope she does well...She always took care of her other kids....with lots of love...Yes she went to extremes to get more attention but I think we should just observe because the kids are already here....Theres nothing you can do...


You should listen to what her own parents have said about her.

It's not a simple matter of going to extremes to get attention, she brought 14 lives into the world. You don't think that's a big deal or any cause to be concerned?

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 12:46 AM
Yes they should intervene but not take them away...Maybe provide some type of 24 hour assistance....TO get them in line...My husbands grandmother did well with her 12 and she had only her husbands income...He drank alot...and he was abusive to her...


She apparently does have like 6 24-hour nurses. She has a whole team of them.

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:50 AM
Kiahna-I do understand.i really do!!I also went in to nursing to help people.What I have learned is that I cant fix everyone.Trust me, I tried many times when i first started my career.I have seen horrible situations, sad situations.Yes, people choose their own lifestyle.Its just that I have seen many children with virtually no chance of a normal life because of their lack of parenting.That is very frustrating.Hopefully someone will help these children....which would only put a dent in the mass numbers of misguided parents out there.No one is perfect.I understand that.And you....should be pround of yourself.You are a success story.Take care of you though.Major burnout in this profession!!!

I am very proud...I had not so good parents and I vowed to be different...Lack of parenting is a BIG thing in America...Most americans dont think they can change their kids or they think no matter what they do they cant change inevitable outcomes...Parents under estimate the power they have over their kids....Its like people think they MUST have kids...no one has to have kids....

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:53 AM
You should listen to what her own parents have said about her.

It's not a simple matter of going to extremes to get attention, she brought 14 lives into the world. You don't think that's a big deal or any cause to be concerned?

no because my husband has 12 aunts and uncles...didnt you read that? Her mental state is the ONLY concern I have...My husbands family were those christians who dont believe in birth control and she had 12 kids...They are fine..All college grads and ALL have jobs and familes of thier own..They love eachother so much...they just dont trust anyone else...sucks for me...

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 12:57 AM
She apparently does have like 6 24-hour nurses. She has a whole team of them.

I see...and we are looking from the outside...the media portrays everyone in a negative light....Lets just hope she does her best...LIke the shows on TLC where they have 18 kids! Whats the difference? They are married? Thats it....The only reason she is so in the media is because she had 8 at one time...

Glory87
08-20-2009, 02:53 AM
Did not watch - refuse to give her any attention at all. Feel sorry for the kids, but she's nuts.

juliastl27
08-20-2009, 12:37 PM
ok i didnt mean to start an argument. i also agree that number of children is not relevant.

as a mom, i feel like its my job to give my son the best possible opportunities in life. i dont think she is in a position, with 14 children, no husband, and no job, to provide her children with all the opportunities they deserve. aside from that, she is clearly attention starved (even though she CONSTANTLY complains about how much she hates it) and is not up to the task of watching the 6 children she already had. they run around hitting each other, screaming and cursing.

during the special even she was talking about how she regrets having them. her parents also think she is irresponsible. CPS was called twice during that special, and the police were called 2 or 3 times.

bottom line, it takes a one in a million woman to deal with this many children, and i dont think she is one.

Quiet Ballerina
08-20-2009, 12:41 PM
She changed her whole appearance...that was apparent after the Dr. Phil show....She looked TOTALLY different...She craves attention as I said earlier...Maybe child hood trauma maybe not....She is the product of a fallen and corrupt society...Her case is extreme....but she needs help...

Woah. Do not blame this woman's craziness on society. That is a cop-out. She is not the only woman on earth to suffer childhood trauma (if she did, I don't know her backstory).

Nurses wise: She has 5 during the day and 4 in the evening.

You talk about your husbands family having 12 kids.....this case is different because 8 of them were born at once. She's unemployed. She's single. She doesn't parent her kids.

The show on TLC (with 18 kids) is different because:
The parents work, and they have real estate that they rent out for extra income. They take care of their kids and actually educate them and control their poor behavior. They both have big families, true, but I think it's two entirely different scenarios.

ajowens
08-20-2009, 12:43 PM
How the EFF did she lose all of that weight and skin in 3 months??

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 01:51 PM
no because my husband has 12 aunts and uncles...didnt you read that? Her mental state is the ONLY concern I have...My husbands family were those christians who dont believe in birth control and she had 12 kids...They are fine..All college grads and ALL have jobs and familes of thier own..They love eachother so much...they just dont trust anyone else...sucks for me...


And I'm pretty sure that they had two parents who weren't unemployed.

No one can raise 14 kids by themselves with no job. She's getting by on charity.

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 01:54 PM
I see...and we are looking from the outside...the media portrays everyone in a negative light....Lets just hope she does her best...LIke the shows on TLC where they have 18 kids! Whats the difference? They are married? Thats it....The only reason she is so in the media is because she had 8 at one time...



Well, the Duggars are married, it is a two-parent household, and the husband has a job. Neither are on disability, and their kids are of all various ages which makes it easy for them to take care of their younger children. All of Nadya Suleman's kids are under the age of 10.

You can't compare the two, I've watched the specials on the Duggars and they're very responsible well-rounded sane people. Nadya Suleman is not.

You have to look at it from the facts. She's unemployed. Single. On disability. On welfare. And all of her kids were from IVF, which costs thousands of dollars per treatment. You don't think that's in any way irresponsible?

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 05:25 PM
Woah. Do not blame this woman's craziness on society. That is a cop-out. She is not the only woman on earth to suffer childhood trauma (if she did, I don't know her backstory).

Nurses wise: She has 5 during the day and 4 in the evening.

You talk about your husbands family having 12 kids.....this case is different because 8 of them were born at once. She's unemployed. She's single. She doesn't parent her kids.

The show on TLC (with 18 kids) is different because:
The parents work, and they have real estate that they rent out for extra income. They take care of their kids and actually educate them and control their poor behavior. They both have big families, true, but I think it's two entirely different scenarios.

If you read my ENTIRE post and didnt just comment on what would be relevant you YOUR argument...I ALSO said it could be childhood trauma or neglect....

kiahna23
08-20-2009, 05:26 PM
How the EFF did she lose all of that weight and skin in 3 months??

More than likely a tummy tuck...

And I'm pretty sure that they had two parents who weren't unemployed.

No one can raise 14 kids by themselves with no job. She's getting by on charity.

And Im pretty sure you dont know what their situation was..He was an abusive alcoholic...so she eventually started fostering children....She had a total of 15 children in her home at one time...She had to take care of herself and her kids after he died of a heart attack...And money isnt the only way to take care of kids....People with less children are on assistance.....I just said mentally she should get help so she can be better for her kids..

Well, the Duggars are married, it is a two-parent household, and the husband has a job. Neither are on disability, and their kids are of all various ages which makes it easy for them to take care of their younger children. All of Nadya Suleman's kids are under the age of 10.

You can't compare the two, I've watched the specials on the Duggars and they're very responsible well-rounded sane people. Nadya Suleman is not.

You have to look at it from the facts. She's unemployed. Single. On disability. On welfare. And all of her kids were from IVF, which costs thousands of dollars per treatment. You don't think that's in any way irresponsible?

For the hundredth time...I NEVER SAID SHE WASNT IRRESPONSIBLE but I don tremember GOD giving me my platinum perfection card...So Im not going to judge her...I hate that everyone has to look at things from the same point of view or you get angry....You came in at the end of the debate....

Quiet Ballerina
08-20-2009, 09:12 PM
If you read my ENTIRE post and didnt just comment on what would be relevant you YOUR argument...I ALSO said it could be childhood trauma or neglect....

Would you like to be the pot or the kettle? Because you did not read my entire post either.

I said to blame it solely on society is a cop-out. I also said that I don't know if she suffered childhood trauma or neglect...however, even if she did suffer childhood trauma and neglect, that still isn't an excuse! She isn't the only one to ever experience any suffering. You've shown that yourself with your own story. If everyone that suffered any hardships acted the way she does, the world would be in complete chaos.

Chelby29
08-20-2009, 09:41 PM
All I have to say is, if my son hit me and called me a b****.... God rest his soul!

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 10:45 PM
And Im pretty sure you dont know what their situation was..He was an abusive alcoholic...so she eventually started fostering children....She had a total of 15 children in her home at one time...She had to take care of herself and her kids after he died of a heart attack...And money isnt the only way to take care of kids....People with less children are on assistance.....I just said mentally she should get help so she can be better for her kids..


Who are you talking about?

sunflowergirl68
08-20-2009, 10:49 PM
For the hundredth time...I NEVER SAID SHE WASNT IRRESPONSIBLE but I don tremember GOD giving me my platinum perfection card...So Im not going to judge her...I hate that everyone has to look at things from the same point of view or you get angry....You came in at the end of the debate....

I came in at the end of the debate? I made the first or second comment. *is confused*

I just don't like it when people make excuses for their or other peoples' behavior. Ok, so she might have had a bad childhood, so what? Plenty of people have bad childhoods, and they don't go out and spend thousands of dollars on in vitro and have 14 kids. No number of excuses excuses her behavior or her choices.

She has problems and her children deserve ot be raised by a stable parent. Her kids will most likely be taken away by child protective services, people like her are why CPH exists. No number of nannies will raise those kids right.

EZMONEY
08-20-2009, 10:53 PM
I had good parents...

look what happened to me

Onederchic
08-20-2009, 10:54 PM
I had good parents...

look what happened to me


:rofl:


He's got a point.. ;)

walking2lose
08-20-2009, 11:11 PM
Kiahna - I just want to say that I really respect how you have held your own in this discussion without making snide personal comments toward anyone, though a few have been directed toward you. It's interesting because you are the lone voice here calling for compassion and understanding- why can't more of us be this way? I don't think anyone wants to be judged harshly for her own mistakes, yet so many of us are quick to judge others. I personally find being overly judgmental or critical to be one of my own worst qualities - I love to watch reality shows and at times do gloat over another's misfortunes or even gossip about people I know. I truly dislike this quality in myself and have worked to improve it... although I don't work on it as hard as I should.

It's hard for me to be as nonjudgmental as you are (including about this topic), but I commend you for both your ability to try to understand the whole person, as well as to stay composed in this discussion.

Windchime
08-20-2009, 11:26 PM
I only caught the last couple of minutes of the show after I read this post (last night), and the mere sight of those 8 babies laying on the rug, screaming their heads off in unison is enough to make me glad I didn't watch the whole thing!

I've seen enough interviews of her on other shows to believe that there is something wrong with her mentally. I don't mean that it's nuts to have that many kids (because the Duggers seem quite happy, and my dad has 10 siblings), but that she seems....detatched from reality or something. She can put sentences together, but what she says doesn't seem to make sense (to me). Very strange situation.

And I'm wondering....how does a student find the money to get IVF in the first place? A friend of mine is looking into it, and it's $15K for the FIRST treatment alone.

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 12:18 AM
Kiahna - I just want to say that I really respect how you have held your own in this discussion without making snide personal comments toward anyone, though a few have been directed toward you. It's interesting because you are the lone voice here calling for compassion and understanding- why can't more of us be this way? I don't think anyone wants to be judged harshly for her own mistakes, yet so many of us are quick to judge others. I personally find being overly judgmental or critical to be one of my own worst qualities - I love to watch reality shows and at times do gloat over another's misfortunes or even gossip about people I know. I truly dislike this quality in myself and have worked to improve it... although I don't work on it as hard as I should.

It's hard for me to be as nonjudgmental as you are (including about this topic), but I commend you for both your ability to try to understand the whole person, as well as to stay composed in this discussion.



Making mistakes at the expense of yourself is one thing, but making mistakes at the expense of another (or 14 others in this case) is an entirely different case.

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 12:19 AM
And I'm wondering....how does a student find the money to get IVF in the first place? A friend of mine is looking into it, and it's $15K for the FIRST treatment alone.

From disability checks.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:36 AM
All I have to say is, if my son hit me and called me a b****.... God rest his soul!

LOL

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:37 AM
Would you like to be the pot or the kettle? Because you did not read my entire post either.

I said to blame it solely on society is a cop-out. I also said that I don't know if she suffered childhood trauma or neglect...however, even if she did suffer childhood trauma and neglect, that still isn't an excuse! She isn't the only one to ever experience any suffering. You've shown that yourself with your own story. If everyone that suffered any hardships acted the way she does, the world would be in complete chaos.

Ive shown that I have overcome... that doesnt mean everyone can...if you really believe that then the world would be perfect... Majority of my family havent....Not everyone can be the same or react the same....I may have overcome but I still have trust issues that i am working on...So I know that even if I do become rich I will still have some problems...

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:41 AM
I came in at the end of the debate? I made the first or second comment. *is confused*

I just don't like it when people make excuses for their or other peoples' behavior. Ok, so she might have had a bad childhood, so what? Plenty of people have bad childhoods, and they don't go out and spend thousands of dollars on in vitro and have 14 kids. No number of excuses excuses her behavior or her choices.

She has problems and her children deserve ot be raised by a stable parent. Her kids will most likely be taken away by child protective services, people like her are why CPH exists. No number of nannies will raise those kids right.

I didnt make excuses...your not listening..your the type of person who is like "so what you had it hard...overcome it right now!"not reality...your mind is extremely complex and can make or break you....How about this..How about we agree to disagree...you think everyone should react to things like you think they should...Its just not reality....I hope she gets better and I hope for the best...

walking2lose
08-21-2009, 12:41 AM
Making mistakes at the expense of yourself is one thing, but making mistakes at the expense of another (or 14 others in this case) is an entirely different case.

But being understanding of the person and where they've come from is an admirable thing, no? That's what I was driving at - I agree she is likely going to damage 14 little lives and personalities but still do we need to judge, judge, judge (criticize) or somehow reach out in a positive way. By "we" I mean all of us and society in general.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:43 AM
Kiahna - I just want to say that I really respect how you have held your own in this discussion without making snide personal comments toward anyone, though a few have been directed toward you. It's interesting because you are the lone voice here calling for compassion and understanding- why can't more of us be this way? I don't think anyone wants to be judged harshly for her own mistakes, yet so many of us are quick to judge others. I personally find being overly judgmental or critical to be one of my own worst qualities - I love to watch reality shows and at times do gloat over another's misfortunes or even gossip about people I know. I truly dislike this quality in myself and have worked to improve it... although I don't work on it as hard as I should.

It's hard for me to be as nonjudgmental as you are (including about this topic), but I commend you for both your ability to try to understand the whole person, as well as to stay composed in this discussion.

Thank you...I am judged so much still..So I dont like to judge others..I know how it hurts..And it can hurt bad! Im still battling myself to be what I want to be...

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 12:43 AM
I didnt make excuses...your not listening..your the type of person who is like "so what you had it hard...overcome it right now!"not reality...your mind is extremely complex and can make or break you....How about this..How about we agree to disagree...you think everyone should react to things like you think they should...Its just not reality....I hope she gets better and I hope for the best...

I've had it hard, I had cancer. I had a boyfriend go overseas for a year and a half. And I'm not going to blame other people for it. His dad is mentally ill and blames everyone for his problems. He just sits there and feels sorry for himself and hates on everyone around him. And he only has himself to blame. I overcame my problems and didn't play the blame game, which is what she is doing.

She won't get better if she doesn't get help, and she looks like she isn't going to be getting any professional help any time soon. Just like my fiance's father won't get better because he doesn't think that he's ill, and he thinks he's right, and he'll live the rest of his life alone because he won't get help.

Windchime
08-21-2009, 12:45 AM
From disability checks.

I'd be suprised if this were possible, unless disability checks in her state are a LOT higher than they are here.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:51 AM
But being understanding of the person and where they've come from is an admirable thing, no? That's what I was driving at - I agree she is likely going to damage 14 little lives and personalities but still do we need to judge, judge, judge (criticize) or somehow reach out in a positive way. By "we" I mean all of us and society in general.

Thats how the world is...and it stresses me out sometimes...We judge clothes, hair, feet, skin, socioeconomic status, and everything else...But for some reason we never judge ourselves...I feel sorry for her...in a empathetic way...I sometimes feel down at the way Americans react to eachother...I say Americans because this is where I live....

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:56 AM
I've had it hard, I had cancer. I had a boyfriend go overseas for a year and a half. And I'm not going to blame other people for it. His dad is mentally ill and blames everyone for his problems. He just sits there and feels sorry for himself and hates on everyone around him. And he only has himself to blame. I overcame my problems and didn't play the blame game, which is what she is doing.

She won't get better if she doesn't get help, and she looks like she isn't going to be getting any professional help any time soon. Just like my fiance's father won't get better because he doesn't think that he's ill, and he thinks he's right, and he'll live the rest of his life alone because he won't get help.

Where maybe hes not ready to come to grips with it..If hes mentally ill he isnt thinking straight anyway....I couldnt imagine having problems like that...Not everyon eis you...and you cant expect them to react how you want them to....Thats kinda narrow mined...not to be mean...but you cant expect the world to do what you would do...its not fair...And what you see isnt always the truth in every case...Some can paint a pretty picture and show the real behind closed doors...

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 12:57 AM
I've had it hard, I had cancer. I had a boyfriend go overseas for a year and a half. And I'm not going to blame other people for it. His dad is mentally ill and blames everyone for his problems. He just sits there and feels sorry for himself and hates on everyone around him. And he only has himself to blame. I overcame my problems and didn't play the blame game, which is what she is doing.

She won't get better if she doesn't get help, and she looks like she isn't going to be getting any professional help any time soon. Just like my fiance's father won't get better because he doesn't think that he's ill, and he thinks he's right, and he'll live the rest of his life alone because he won't get help.

But congrats on battling and overcoming cancer! I couldnt imagine that! I couldnt mentally do it and hope i never have to...thats awesome...

Quiet Ballerina
08-21-2009, 01:26 AM
(most of the time) people can't be helped unless they want to be helped.

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 01:45 AM
But being understanding of the person and where they've come from is an admirable thing, no? That's what I was driving at - I agree she is likely going to damage 14 little lives and personalities but still do we need to judge, judge, judge (criticize) or somehow reach out in a positive way. By "we" I mean all of us and society in general.

But from what I've heard and from what her parents have said, and what she's said.... she was lonely as a kid, as an only child, and didn't feel "loved" so she had tons of kids who would love her.

People have reached out to her. People give her free diapers, toys, etc, and she rejects it. She just turns around and gives it away. People have offered her free nanny and nurse help, and she fired them because she thought they were "spying." I already gave her the benefit of the doubt and I really did feel sorry for her and compassion, and her actions thus far have shown that she's really not worthy of my compassion. She doesn't want anyone's help and those kids are going to suffer for her own selfishness.

But congrats on battling and overcoming cancer! I couldnt imagine that! I couldnt mentally do it and hope i never have to...thats awesome...

Thanks.

But if I can overcome something like that, she can overcome having a lonely childhood.

Where maybe hes not ready to come to grips with it..If hes mentally ill he isnt thinking straight anyway....I couldnt imagine having problems like that...Not everyon eis you...and you cant expect them to react how you want them to....Thats kinda narrow mined...not to be mean...but you cant expect the world to do what you would do...its not fair...And what you see isnt always the truth in every case...Some can paint a pretty picture and show the real behind closed doors...

No, he's in his 50s, he'll never get help. He'll live alone for the rest of his life because no one wants to have anything to do with him. Once you've reached the point of being a paranoid schizophrenic that late in life, cutting off everyone, there will be no break through or "coming to grips" with it.

And people help themselves every day. To sit there and say that it shouldn't be expected of everyone is faithless almost. If I can do it, she can do it. If you can lose a lot of weight, so can I. We might not be the same person, but we're both people. Know what I'm saying?

And if she really was that helpless or in need of help that bad, CPS would have to come in.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 06:29 AM
No, he's in his 50s, he'll never get help. He'll live alone for the rest of his life because no one wants to have anything to do with him. Once you've reached the point of being a paranoid schizophrenic that late in life, cutting off everyone, there will be no break through or "coming to grips" with it.

And people help themselves every day. To sit there and say that it shouldn't be expected of everyone is faithless almost. If I can do it, she can do it. If you can lose a lot of weight, so can I. We might not be the same person, but we're both people. Know what I'm saying?

And if she really was that helpless or in need of help that bad, CPS would have to come in.

I get what your saying...I just think that we cant all "overcome"...so of us will fail...Thats why the world isnt perfect...No compassion without pain...I think I saw that in a movie lol..GOD give us all perfect lives or the ability to possess such determination...I really believe that...If he did everything would be perfect....And its evident that it isnt....I hope she gets better and I hope her kids have the best lives possible...She does give stuff away but we dont know why..So what she gives stuff away...We dont what is on her mind or the depth of her detrimental state....I think someone should help her because stress can make anyone crazy and I wouldnt want her to harm her kids..Like millions regardless of how many kids or how rich they are do everyday....NOT everyone will overcome....I dont expect anything of anyone else...I only expect things for myself....If you continue to expect things and believe everyone can overcome odds you will just stress yourself out...Your doing great...just think about you and your family...not in a selfish way....you know what I mean....

Chelby29
08-21-2009, 07:40 AM
I love the Duggars! That family loves and RESPECTS each other.

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 12:27 PM
I'd be suprised if this were possible, unless disability checks in her state are a LOT higher than they are here.

She's in California, so I dunno. Maybe her parents also chipped in.

I get what your saying...I just think that we cant all "overcome"...so of us will fail...Thats why the world isnt perfect...No compassion without pain...I think I saw that in a movie lol..GOD give us all perfect lives or the ability to possess such determination...I really believe that...If he did everything would be perfect....And its evident that it isnt....I hope she gets better and I hope her kids have the best lives possible...She does give stuff away but we dont know why..So what she gives stuff away...We dont what is on her mind or the depth of her detrimental state....I think someone should help her because stress can make anyone crazy and I wouldnt want her to harm her kids..Like millions regardless of how many kids or how rich they are do everyday....NOT everyone will overcome....I dont expect anything of anyone else...I only expect things for myself....If you continue to expect things and believe everyone can overcome odds you will just stress yourself out...Your doing great...just think about you and your family...not in a selfish way....you know what I mean....


Then that's really defeatist if you think we can't all overcome our problems. I know if my fiance's father started going to a psychiatrist and taking meds, his problems would most likely go away, but he won't because he thinks he's sane.

Yes, you'll fail.... but you have to think of what this woman's supposed problems are. Growing up lonely. Boo-freaking-hoo, that doesn't mean you go out and have 14 kids when you're unemployed and on disability and single.

Please stop making excuses. I'm not even talking about having a "perfect" life, I'm talking about helping yourself before you hurt other people, and for you to sit there and say that's not possible for some people is false. And defeatist. Look at how much weight you've lost, it's obviously possible to help one's self.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. She won't get better unless she gets help. It isn't magical and doesn't happen overnight. She was crazy before she had the 8 babies and she IS getting help from a team of nannies, and no, a psychologist cannot help her if she does not want their help. By her giving away charitable donations, it's apparent she doesn't want anyone's help. Understand?

And if you really do think that not everyone can overcome their problems, then that is defeatist and a very negative attitude. People have gone from being homeless to being millionaires, homeless to going to Harvard, grown up in an abusive home and become incredibly successful.

Everyone has the power to help themselves. Everyone.

juliastl27
08-21-2009, 02:52 PM
Kiahna - I just want to say that I really respect how you have held your own in this discussion without making snide personal comments toward anyone, though a few have been directed toward you. It's interesting because you are the lone voice here calling for compassion and understanding- why can't more of us be this way? I don't think anyone wants to be judged harshly for her own mistakes, yet so many of us are quick to judge others.

i think when you're parading your private life for a documentary on network TV and holding a press conference in your living room as you return home with 2 of your children from the hospital, you're opening yourself up to be judged. this was HER documentary and the time for her to show HER side of the story. i went in perfectly open minded and if anything, WANTING to see some good in this woman who everyone is picking on. it just wasnt there, bottom line.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 03:39 PM
She's in California, so I dunno. Maybe her parents also chipped in.




Then that's really defeatist if you think we can't all overcome our problems. I know if my fiance's father started going to a psychiatrist and taking meds, his problems would most likely go away, but he won't because he thinks he's sane.

Yes, you'll fail.... but you have to think of what this woman's supposed problems are. Growing up lonely. Boo-freaking-hoo, that doesn't mean you go out and have 14 kids when you're unemployed and on disability and single.

Please stop making excuses. I'm not even talking about having a "perfect" life, I'm talking about helping yourself before you hurt other people, and for you to sit there and say that's not possible for some people is false. And defeatist. Look at how much weight you've lost, it's obviously possible to help one's self.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. She won't get better unless she gets help. It isn't magical and doesn't happen overnight. She was crazy before she had the 8 babies and she IS getting help from a team of nannies, and no, a psychologist cannot help her if she does not want their help. By her giving away charitable donations, it's apparent she doesn't want anyone's help. Understand?

And if you really do think that not everyone can overcome their problems, then that is defeatist and a very negative attitude. People have gone from being homeless to being millionaires, homeless to going to Harvard, grown up in an abusive home and become incredibly successful.

Everyone has the power to help themselves. Everyone.

smh (shaking my head)....I hope everyone in the world overcomes what you want them too...

i think when you're parading your private life for a documentary on network TV and holding a press conference in your living room as you return home with 2 of your children from the hospital, you're opening yourself up to be judged. this was HER documentary and the time for her to show HER side of the story. i went in perfectly open minded and if anything, WANTING to see some good in this woman who everyone is picking on. it just wasnt there, bottom line.

you saw what they wanted you to see...thats how the media works..Many think if you go to Compton California then you will be shot on site...NOT TRUE! I lived there majority of my life...Media portrays everything as negative as possible..they need people to watch....drama drama drama....thats all they want...listen to that Nas song "I know I can"...and that where is the love song by black eyed peas.....all of what they say is obvious....

juliastl27
08-21-2009, 04:00 PM
you saw what they wanted you to see...thats how the media works..Many think if you go to Compton California then you will be shot on site...NOT TRUE! I lived there majority of my life...Media portrays everything as negative as possible..they need people to watch....drama drama drama....thats all they want...listen to that Nas song "I know I can"...and that where is the love song by black eyed peas.....all of what they say is obvious....


actually what i wanted to see was a woman who has been misrepresented by the media. i was internally rooting for her and wanting to see a good mother who has been bashed by the tabloids. instead i saw a woman who is almost childlike and out of touch with reality. she is even quoted in the show as saying that she didnt think about the consequences, and that she "screwed up" her life, and her kids. that was the most realistic thing she said in the entire 2 hours. this wasnt a tabloid article, this was HER documentary that she wanted to have. it was her chance to prove everyone wrong. she failed in my eyes, and i think in almost everyones eyes.

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 05:48 PM
actually what i wanted to see was a woman who has been misrepresented by the media. i was internally rooting for her and wanting to see a good mother who has been bashed by the tabloids. instead i saw a woman who is almost childlike and out of touch with reality. she is even quoted in the show as saying that she didnt think about the consequences, and that she "screwed up" her life, and her kids. that was the most realistic thing she said in the entire 2 hours. this wasnt a tabloid article, this was HER documentary that she wanted to have. it was her chance to prove everyone wrong. she failed in my eyes, and i think in almost everyones eyes.

I saw it too...I may be desensitized....because I lived in areas where the kids curse like they are adults.....I saw a kindergardener cursing at my daughters school! I was like "wow should you be talking like that?"...And he told me to "mind my effin business"...ofcourse he cursed though! Ive seen some terrible children! And their parents are usually just as bad....She is stressed though....I hope she comes out on top! Im not saying be poster perfect...I just hope she gets better...I see this all the time where I live...Kids without diapers changed....cursing...shooting....fighting....so much in this world we cant change....its stressful....but I dont get angry....I try to be optimistic and expect nothing....this way I wont get angry or frustrated....not saying you are....

Wolf Goddess
08-21-2009, 06:44 PM
NEEDS VISUAL REFERENCE:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/shiningsierra/octomom.jpg

EZMONEY
08-21-2009, 07:09 PM
Oh you are soooo bad WOLF....so bad...

LOVE-LOVE IT!!!!!!!

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 09:44 PM
smh (shaking my head)....I hope everyone in the world overcomes what you want them too....


It has nothing to do with me or what I want. You're not getting it. All I am saying is that if people want to, they can overcome pretty much any problem they have. and I think it's bull**** to just sit there and make excuses for people when they can improve and change pretty much any situation they're in.

harrismm
08-21-2009, 11:18 PM
After working in the medical profession for 15 years, my answer is no.Many people do not have the tools to overcome all challenges.And that is the truth.I wish they did.But it is faaaaaar from that simple.Trust me.

Onederchic
08-21-2009, 11:20 PM
Oh you are soooo bad WOLF....so bad...

LOVE-LOVE IT!!!!!!!

Me too :D

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 11:50 PM
It has nothing to do with me or what I want. You're not getting it. All I am saying is that if people want to, they can overcome pretty much any problem they have. and I think it's bull**** to just sit there and make excuses for people when they can improve and change pretty much any situation they're in.

I can say the same..."your not getting it!"...Im not going to conform to you and your not going to conform to me....curse all you want...couldnt careless...

kiahna23
08-21-2009, 11:51 PM
After working in the medical profession for 15 years, my answer is no.Many people do not have the tools to overcome all challenges.And that is the truth.I wish they did.But it is faaaaaar from that simple.Trust me.

Exactly....I agree

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 11:58 PM
After working in the medical profession for 15 years, my answer is no.Many people do not have the tools to overcome all challenges.And that is the truth.I wish they did.But it is faaaaaar from that simple.Trust me.

I'm not talking about being sick. And it's not about having access. People have friends, friends and family can help.

But this woman has access to pretty much anything she wants because she's in the media spotlight. People would be more than willing to give her free psychological care or free health care or whatever she wants.

sunflowergirl68
08-21-2009, 11:58 PM
I can say the same..."your not getting it!"...Im not going to conform to you and your not going to conform to me....curse all you want...couldnt careless...

I guess I still don't know what I'm not getting.

EZMONEY
08-22-2009, 12:09 AM
Since I am 55 and have more life experiences than some of you I will have to say that we are all different.

Some of the easiest things for me to see and understand just go right over some of my employees heads!

Some of the silliest issues some of my family and friends have are "major drama" in their lives.

I can't explain it.

It is easy for all of us to criticise others....we all do it....

some are easier to criticize than others....like OCTOMOM...


she asks for it....and relishes the attention....

normal...nope

just be glad you are not her!

harrismm
08-22-2009, 12:14 AM
I have taken care of and known many people over the years with free access to mental health care...........not the point.Trust me!!!!!!!Its not so black and white.

indiegrlx
08-22-2009, 12:29 AM
If it weren't for the kids it would be hilarious. I wish someone would get a court order to tie her tubes. That woman should be commited, yes free will and all that blah, blah, blah...But it's not all about her, she has 14 kids she can't take care of. Those kids aren't anything but a meal ticket to her. She's not expecting that she's going to take care of them, she's expecting that they're going to take care of her. She's a leech on society, and no one likes leeches.

Not to mention, can you imagine what people who can't have children think when they watch her?!

*scream* she makes me so mad. :mad:

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 12:55 AM
I have taken care of and known many people over the years with free access to mental health care...........not the point.Trust me!!!!!!!Its not so black and white.

my point exactly! But hey....

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 12:56 AM
I guess I still don't know what I'm not getting.

And you probably never will....

SunshineCA
08-22-2009, 02:29 AM
All I have to say is, if my son hit me and called me a b****.... God rest his soul!

:lol: I'm catching up on what I've missed the last few days and this just cracks me up! :lol:

kaplods
08-22-2009, 05:12 AM
It's easy to guess and speculate about the motives and thought processes behind someone else's behavior (especially if they've gotten into the media spotlight -whether or not intentionally).

Most of the time, I think we're far more likely to be wrong than right. Which is why I generally do try to avoid most of the reality show and gossip coverage, but it's difficult, because the story is so compelling (if only in a traffic-accident way), of the media coverage, and the popularity in every day conversations for people to bring it up.

From what I have seen on the situation, I feel badly for Nadya, her children, and her parents. I think there are probably some severe issues going on, but they may not be the ones I think they are. There are a thousand possibilities. Because of the extreme (to my eyes) plastic surgery, I strongly suspect body dismorphic disorder, but she might also have had a lousy plastic surgeon. I believe the family has talked about severe clinical depression especially post-partum depression (which can cause delusions and psychotic episodes, an irrational desire for more children, is well within the possible effects). I also suspect an OCD "hoarding" component, which (hoarding that is) is being coverend in another thread.

It's interesting to me that she gets so little sympathy, when there's been more given (on this website) in the hoarder's thread toward the woman hoarding rotting vegetables. It's true that vegetables aren't living beings, but working in the mental health field with a masters' degree in psychology - I've seen hoarders of all types, and I think Octomom fits much of the profile (though I may be completely wrong).

If she is an ocd-driven hoarder, the urge to "collect" is virtually uncontrollable without medication AND counseling. While it's true that hoarding children is exceedingly rare - but mostly because until now (and I'd argue even now far more often than not) it's been virtually impossible. Having children "naturally" it would be impossible to have 14 children all under the age of 8. Being given non-birthed children would be unlikely (but possible, if she were willing to adopt or foster hard-to-place, especially handicapped children, even so - whether in an adoptive or a naturally-born huge huge family, children's ages are far more spaced out to the point that older children are able to help raise and care for the younger children.

I think Nadya's case, most closely parallel's animal hoarders. People who hoard pet animals often have the "best" of intentions. They believe they are rescuing the critters (and it often starts that way) but when the numbers get out of control, the urge to rescue more is still there. They bond so closely to each animal, that even though animals may be sick or dying because of lack of care, care they don't have the resources to provide, that they can't bare to part with any of them - even temporarily for treatment.

It Nadya does have the ocd hoarder's "need" for pregnancy/children - it would be exceedingly difficult for her to fight it. Rational thought isn't likely to win out over the irrational thoughts and impulses without a lot of intervention (and usually drugs).

She did admit, I saw in a commercial clip on tv, and in bold writing in a tabloid at the grocery checkout that she dod "admit it was a mistake," and said she only expected one or two babies to be born (would 7 or 8 still have been nearly as idiotic as 14? Maybe).

I've also heard in the ubiquitous gossip, that she has fired many nannies/nurses that were sent to assist her with the children. On one hand, it makes her look to many people like an arrogant evil bi(never mind), but it really fits with the hoarder theory too. OCD hoarder's go a bit wonky when anyone interferes or attempts to assist in their situation. Their anxiety goes through the roof, and the irrational thoughts/behaviors escalate.


One thing that did start me thinking about her mental state differently than my first (and negative) impression, is finding out that all of her children were conceived in vitro at the same time (from one donation of sperm). Because Nadya believes (I do too, for that matter) that life begins at conception, and she couldn't accept that those remaining embryos would need to be discarded (killed) or given to couples she didn't know (because it would, essentially be HER children away).

I think the most irresponsible person in the situation wasn't Nadya, but her doctor. Her family knew she had a problem, and went to the doctor and begged him not to do any more embryo transfers (which according to Nadya's mother, the doctor did promise he wouldn't, but later did the implantation anyway). Then, not only did he do the implantation, but he implanted ALL of them (which I later learned is completely against the standard practice, which is to never implant more than 3 embryos in a woman under 35, because of the good success rate).

Personally I think (and I could be wrong), the doctor implanted all of the remaining embryos to be able to more quickly wash his hands of her. I hope I'm not true there, because he would also have known how unlikely it was for all (or even any) babies to survive with that many implanted. The risks to the life of Nadya was also much increased. So, if he was willing to risk the lives of all eight fetuses AND the life of a mother of eight small children just for the money, or so he wouldn't have to deal with her again, I think he bears as much, or more responsibility than Nadya herself.

I think it's easy to say that she "should have" known better or sought conseling, etc.... but when a person has such severe irrational thoughts and impulses, they're also unaware that those thoughts and impulses ARE irrational. Whether they want another kitten, or another baby - it makes all the sense in the world to them, at the time. Or, they may even know THAT it's irrational, but may be unable to fight the impulse anyway. So, they either avoid necessary treatment/assistance because they feel they don't need it, or because they feel something even more horrible than their current situation will befall them if their situation is altered or affected in any way.

If a generic stuff/junk hoarder for example, has four foot piles of trash in every square inch of the home, if someone comes in and moves (let alone disposes of) so much as a single paper cup, piece of junkmial or a pizza crust - it sends them into a fit of anxiety and sometimes even panic. They probably can't explain why they need the item(s), they just know that they do.

All my suppositions may be false (I'd almost guarantee that at least one of them is), and she truly may be a selfish, attention-seeking ego-maniac. However, I think my guesses are just as likely.

harrismm
08-22-2009, 10:12 AM
It has nothing to do with me or what I want. You're not getting it. All I am saying is that if people want to, they can overcome pretty much any problem they have. and I think it's bull**** to just sit there and make excuses for people when they can improve and change pretty much any situation they're in. This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.

kiramira
08-22-2009, 01:01 PM
Right on Ms Harrismm!
I think there are a bunch of issues here, but the one that bugs me the most concerns those that are treating her like a victim, as though she had no choice in the matter. As though she came home and was surprised to see 14 kids and no job and no visible means of support.

She created her own situation. Aided of course by MDs, who also IMHO were completely irresponsible with respect to providing IVF. But she obviously had the coin, and made the conscious decision to have these children. So my sympathy is clearly NOT for her. She seems to have enough coin for IVF and for intense plastic surgery, so where IS the $$ coming from? What is REALLY going on?

The second thing that bugs me is that these kids didn't ask to be brought into this world. These KIDS are going to need help. But the fact of the matter is that IF you say Octomom was clearly in need of psychiatric care because she made the decision to HAVE them, then you need to put the needs of these kids FIRST cause they are already behind the 8-ball. Which is what Ms Harrismm is saying. Now, if she REFUSES the help because it isn't on HER terms, you have to wonder if the kids would be better off in another environment...we all seem to condemn the situation but are hesitant to either force her into mental health care for the sake of her children or to remove these children to a carefully selected second home. We as a society condemn, wring our hands, but won't act...if you think she is a nutbar, there has to be the courage to back it up with action for the sake of these kids.

I feel bad for the kids. I have no sympathy for the mom. And I am pretty confident that we'll be seeing some of these kids in the future either in the Juvenile or the Adult Corrections System. This isn't about numbers (my mother has 15 siblings (!), raised on a farm in poverty. All did just fine. My DH is 1 of 9 kids, all of whom have University degrees and are gainfully employed without any substance/alcohol issues.) This is about the ability of Octomom to parent these kids. She self-admittedly doesn't have the skills. And she doesn't recognize this as a problem. This doesn't bode well for the future of these kids...

Kira

helwa588
08-22-2009, 01:06 PM
i think this woman is unstable if you ask me. you know there are so many things wrong with this situation. im not against people who have a lot of kids. i know tons of people who have 6,7,8 and even 10 kids. but my thing is octomom is single(i know there are a lot of women who choose to have kids and not married but if you plan on having 14 kids you better have husband), has no job, she used all her disability money into having six through IVF. then sh goes and gets six eggs implanted in her (two of the eggs wind out splitting). this woman didn't even have her own home when she was having all of these kids. her parents had to go bankrupt because of her. 2 of 6 kids she had before having the the 8 babies had Autism.

not i think she's not the only one to blame here. i think the doctor should take some of this blame. he knew the guidelines where no more than 2 eggs implanted at a time. he went triple the amount. and didn't think that implanting all these eggs into a single unemployed woman was a bad idea.

in the end these kids are going to suffer the most.

the only thing positive i can say about octomom is that she looks great after having 8 babies. she lost that baby weight pretty quick.

harrismm
08-22-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm not talking about being sick. And it's not about having access. People have friends, friends and family can help.

But this woman has access to pretty much anything she wants because she's in the media spotlight. People would be more than willing to give her free psychological care or free health care or whatever she wants.

Uhhhhh......thats why they call it a mental illness.She is sick.

JuliaDH
08-22-2009, 01:52 PM
In regards to money. I believe that she was injured in a prison where she worked several years ago and received a settlement.

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 02:19 PM
It's easy to guess and speculate about the motives and thought processes behind someone else's behavior (especially if they've gotten into the media spotlight -whether or not intentionally).

Most of the time, I think we're far more likely to be wrong than right. Which is why I generally do try to avoid most of the reality show and gossip coverage, but it's difficult, because the story is so compelling (if only in a traffic-accident way), of the media coverage, and the popularity in every day conversations for people to bring it up.

From what I have seen on the situation, I feel badly for Nadya, her children, and her parents. I think there are probably some severe issues going on, but they may not be the ones I think they are. There are a thousand possibilities. Because of the extreme (to my eyes) plastic surgery, I strongly suspect body dismorphic disorder, but she might also have had a lousy plastic surgeon. I believe the family has talked about severe clinical depression especially post-partum depression (which can cause delusions and psychotic episodes, an irrational desire for more children, is well within the possible effects). I also suspect an OCD "hoarding" component, which (hoarding that is) is being coverend in another thread.

It's interesting to me that she gets so little sympathy, when there's been more given (on this website) in the hoarder's thread toward the woman hoarding rotting vegetables. It's true that vegetables aren't living beings, but working in the mental health field with a masters' degree in psychology - I've seen hoarders of all types, and I think Octomom fits much of the profile (though I may be completely wrong).

If she is an ocd-driven hoarder, the urge to "collect" is virtually uncontrollable without medication AND counseling. While it's true that hoarding children is exceedingly rare - but mostly because until now (and I'd argue even now far more often than not) it's been virtually impossible. Having children "naturally" it would be impossible to have 14 children all under the age of 8. Being given non-birthed children would be unlikely (but possible, if she were willing to adopt or foster hard-to-place, especially handicapped children, even so - whether in an adoptive or a naturally-born huge huge family, children's ages are far more spaced out to the point that older children are able to help raise and care for the younger children.

I think Nadya's case, most closely parallel's animal hoarders. People who hoard pet animals often have the "best" of intentions. They believe they are rescuing the critters (and it often starts that way) but when the numbers get out of control, the urge to rescue more is still there. They bond so closely to each animal, that even though animals may be sick or dying because of lack of care, care they don't have the resources to provide, that they can't bare to part with any of them - even temporarily for treatment.

It Nadya does have the ocd hoarder's "need" for pregnancy/children - it would be exceedingly difficult for her to fight it. Rational thought isn't likely to win out over the irrational thoughts and impulses without a lot of intervention (and usually drugs).

She did admit, I saw in a commercial clip on tv, and in bold writing in a tabloid at the grocery checkout that she dod "admit it was a mistake," and said she only expected one or two babies to be born (would 9 or 10 still have been nearly as idiotic as 14? Probably).

I've also heard in the ubiquitous gossip, that she has fired many nannies/nurses that were sent to assist her with the children. On one hand, it makes her look to many people like an arrogant evil bi(never mind), but it really fits with the hoarder theory too. OCD hoarder's go a bit wonky when anyone interferes or attempts to assist in their situation. Their anxiety goes through the roof, and the irrational thoughts/behaviors escalate.


One thing that did start me thinking about her mental state differently than my first (and negative) impression, is finding out that all of her children were conceived in vitro at the same time (from one donation of sperm). Because Nadya believes (I do too, for that matter) that life begins at conception, and she couldn't accept that those remaining embryos would need to be discarded (killed) or given to couples she didn't know (because it would, essentially be HER children away).

I think the most irresponsible person in the situation wasn't Nadya, but her doctor. Her family knew she had a problem, and went to the doctor and begged him not to do any more embryo transfers (which according to Nadya's mother, the doctor did promise he wouldn't, but later did the implantation anyway). Then, not only did he do the implantation, but he implanted ALL of them (which I later learned is completely against the standard practice, which is to never implant more than 3 embryos in a woman under 35, because of the good success rate).

Personally I think (and I could be wrong), the doctor implanted all of the remaining embryos to be able to more quickly wash his hands of her. I hope I'm not true there, because he would also have known how unlikely it was for all (or even any) babies to survive with that many implanted. The risks to the life of Nadya was also much increased. So, if he was willing to risk the lives of all eight fetuses AND the life of a mother of eight small children just for the money, or so he wouldn't have to deal with her again, I think he bears as much, or more responsibility than Nadya herself.

I think it's easy to say that she "should have" known better or sought conseling, etc.... but when a person has such severe irrational thoughts and impulses, they're also unaware that those thoughts and impulses ARE irrational. Whether they want another kitten, or another baby - it makes all the sense in the world to them, at the time. Or, they may even know THAT it's irrational, but may be unable to fight the impulse anyway. So, they either avoid necessary treatment/assistance because they feel they don't need it, or because they feel something even more horrible than their current situation will befall them if their situation is altered or affected in any way.

If a generic stuff/junk hoarder for example, has four foot piles of trash in every square inch of the home, if someone comes in and moves (let alone disposes of) so much as a single paper cup, piece of junkmial or a pizza crust - it sends them into a fit of anxiety and sometimes even panic. They probably can't explain why they need the item(s), they just know that they do.

All my suppositions may be false (I'd almost guarantee that at least one of them is), and she truly may be a selfish, attention-seeking ego-maniac. However, I think my guesses are just as likely.

Wow you said alot! lol..But I agree with you on the parts I did read...We are unsure and that all I was trying to say...Her doctor was a moron but she had so many problems in the past and she always implanted MANY embryos and come out with one or 2 at the most...She didnt expect this...And i do believe conception starts at birth....And as far as her pay...disability right? WTF? In cali disability is almost what you get paid on your real job and it depends on how uch you put in based on your pay...my hubby got 700 weekly...we have 4 kids and LOTS of bills...It was hard to live on that...SO I doubt if she lived on it soley...Lots of speculation...its sad but thats how our country is....we are very critical...not saying you are...I agree with you...you have to look at the facts and look from all angles not just yours..

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 02:21 PM
This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.

that made sense...good point...

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 02:31 PM
i think this woman is unstable if you ask me. you know there are so many things wrong with this situation. im not against people who have a lot of kids. i know tons of people who have 6,7,8 and even 10 kids. but my thing is octomom is single(i know there are a lot of women who choose to have kids and not married but if you plan on having 14 kids you better have husband), has no job, she used all her disability money into having six through IVF. then sh goes and gets six eggs implanted in her (two of the eggs wind out splitting). this woman didn't even have her own home when she was having all of these kids. her parents had to go bankrupt because of her. 2 of 6 kids she had before having the the 8 babies had Autism.

not i think she's not the only one to blame here. i think the doctor should take some of this blame. he knew the guidelines where no more than 2 eggs implanted at a time. he went triple the amount. and didn't think that implanting all these eggs into a single unemployed woman was a bad idea.

in the end these kids are going to suffer the most.

the only thing positive i can say about octomom is that she looks great after having 8 babies. she lost that baby weight pretty quick.

to me stability is a relative term...We arent all the same...I love my kids! I have 4 and I wanted 6...But after 4! ugghhhh! They can get kinda loud but they can also be fun...My parents werent very affectionate..and didnt do the "I love you" thing...so it made me want alot of kids...So I think like this..if I wanted 6 and I was "stable" then why cant somone take it a little further? She didnt anticipate that many...And we cant say she was bad for wanting to implant her babies...I would NEVER kill my babies...im a pro-lifer...always have been...Maybe she had a connection with her babies that we cant understand...I cried when I was 16 and everyone tried to get me to get an abortion...I cried so hard....I kinda see how she feels....on that issue...

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 02:32 PM
In regards to money. I believe that she was injured in a prison where she worked several years ago and received a settlement.

makes more sense....because I know in cali disability doesnt pay much...

sunflowergirl68
08-22-2009, 02:51 PM
This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.

That's not what I'm saying at all. People are *working* towards it. That's what I mean. People here *are* helping themselves. You don't have to be skinny to have helped yourself. I'm struggling with weight loss, but I'm still at it and still helping myself.

Likewise, someone with mental health problems would be helping themselves by going to a therapist and taking whatever medications are prescribed, they don't have to be healthy in order to help themselves.

And you just reiterated my point. She does appear to have mental health issues, but she is NOT going to get help for it because she thinks she's fine. The only way she'll get help is if something extreme happens, like her kids are taken away.

sunflowergirl68
08-22-2009, 02:54 PM
@kiramira: That's pretty much what I'm saying too.

juliastl27
08-22-2009, 03:43 PM
That's not what I'm saying at all. People are *working* towards it. That's what I mean. People here *are* helping themselves. You don't have to be skinny to have helped yourself. I'm struggling with weight loss, but I'm still at it and still helping myself.

Likewise, someone with mental health problems would be helping themselves by going to a therapist and taking whatever medications are prescribed, they don't have to be healthy in order to help themselves.

And you just reiterated my point. She does appear to have mental health issues, but she is NOT going to get help for it because she thinks she's fine. The only way she'll get help is if something extreme happens, like her kids are taken away.

i agree with this. its like someone coming on here and complaining all day about how fat they are, but refusing any advice, and continuing to eat 5000 calories a day. i go to a psychiatrist for extreme anxiety and agoraphobia (stemming from childhood trauma). even though my problems are still there, its the simple fact that i am TRYING to get some help. im not perfect, and will never be, but when you are being offered opportunities that other single mothers would KILL for, and you're just throwing them away... personal responsibility has to come in at some point.

helwa588
08-22-2009, 04:56 PM
to me stability is a relative term...We arent all the same...I love my kids! I have 4 and I wanted 6...But after 4! ugghhhh! They can get kinda loud but they can also be fun...My parents werent very affectionate..and didnt do the "I love you" thing...so it made me want alot of kids...So I think like this..if I wanted 6 and I was "stable" then why cant somone take it a little further? She didnt anticipate that many...And we cant say she was bad for wanting to implant her babies...I would NEVER kill my babies...im a pro-lifer...always have been...Maybe she had a connection with her babies that we cant understand...I cried when I was 16 and everyone tried to get me to get an abortion...I cried so hard....I kinda see how she feels....on that issue...

i understand the need for wanting a lot of kids because there something missing in a childhood. i myself feel the need for when im ready to have kids to want between 3- 5 kids. because octomom was the only child she probably felt like she was missing something. she was probably lonely. but to have that many kids with no job, no home and no spouse is just insane. and im pro-life as well. but what i meant was she shouldn't have had those 6 eggs implanted in her in the first place. she knew there was a chance of all those eggs being fertilized. and she didn't have her eggs unfrozen. she could have kept hem frozen.

the fact of the matter she shouldn't of had those first 6 kids and then go and get 6 eggs implanted when she had no money, no house and no man.

there are enough parent less kids in this country that need to be taken care of. she could have frosted some children. instead the state of California has been taking care of these kids she had.

but i do feel sorry for her. raising 14 kids all by yourself is enough make any one go mad.

EZMONEY
08-22-2009, 04:56 PM
i think this woman is unstable...

Ya think?

sunflowergirl68
08-22-2009, 05:04 PM
i agree with this. its like someone coming on here and complaining all day about how fat they are, but refusing any advice, and continuing to eat 5000 calories a day. i go to a psychiatrist for extreme anxiety and agoraphobia (stemming from childhood trauma). even though my problems are still there, its the simple fact that i am TRYING to get some help. im not perfect, and will never be, but when you are being offered opportunities that other single mothers would KILL for, and you're just throwing them away... personal responsibility has to come in at some point.

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying.

People are trying to help her and she refuses it. People give her donations and she turns around and gives them away. And especially since she has 14 kids.... that's kind of unacceptable.

I had a friend complain day in and day out how fat she was, and wouldn't take any kind of diet advice. and then complain about how fat she is.

I commend you for getting help. It's not easy but you're trying. That's my point... you're helping yourself and that's amazing.

kiahna23
08-22-2009, 05:22 PM
This convo is getting no where...Do you know why? Because we arent even listening to eachother...Debates only get resoled when you try and understand the other persons side...We are polarized on our opinions....Nothing is getting accomplished....so heres my last post...

to sunflower...I get your point we should work towards goals but some of us cant and wont...Not because we dont want to...some dont have the will...Working toward goals take courage and strength..She is not thinking clearly and she doesnt know she is in the amount of trouble she is in...If she is "unstable" then like MANY other seriously mentally ill she cant see it...thats how mental illness works...atleast the more serious ones....the personality effecting ones...Some people dont get whats wrong with them..

To helwa588...yep she should have left them frozen....what she was thinking we will never know...she didnt want to give them away..I get that..I was 16 and had a baby I didnt want to have my baby grow up with someone else...And abortion isnt ever something I would consider...

To..Juliast...She should want help but like I said she may not know she really needs it...Some cant see reality..to understand this you have to realize that our minds can make us crazy or sane...this si so true...my inlwas are nutts! lol...She shouldn give the stuff she gets away but she seems paranoid and maybe she thinks they are contaminated..who knows...

To Harismm...Im sorry if I spelled that wrong...I get your point...but sadly this isnt our countries way..it is easier to say mean things than to just observe..I observe...its not my life...If in fact she is very mentally ill then she needs to get help but if she doesnt want it then like you said she may have something VERY wrong with her....My mother has bipolar disorder but she is getting worse...she doesnt admit it and she cant see what we see..I wish she could but that reality...Some dont see things how we do...our minds are different and what works for you may not work for the next person...

juliastl27
08-22-2009, 06:36 PM
Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying.

People are trying to help her and she refuses it. People give her donations and she turns around and gives them away. And especially since she has 14 kids.... that's kind of unacceptable.

I had a friend complain day in and day out how fat she was, and wouldn't take any kind of diet advice. and then complain about how fat she is.

I commend you for getting help. It's not easy but you're trying. That's my point... you're helping yourself and that's amazing.

thank you. ;)

i was a single mom when i was in my early twenties and BELIEVE me, if someone had been offering me free food and diapers, etc, i wouldve taken it in a heartbeat. when you decide to have children, you dont get to be focused on yourself any more. you CHOSE to have them/keep them and in doing so you (should) realize that your choices dont get to be all about you anymore. if someone is giving you free diapers and you feel embarrassed about it, you have to say to yourself, "whats more important? my pride (or whatever her reasoning is)? or my kid?" if her answer to those questions are not "my childs best interests", then she needs to have the kids put in foster care with families who have better priorities.

i also find it interesting that she seems to put all her worries up to God, which is fine, but does it never occur to her that maybe God's way of helping her is to have people offering her all these things? maybe God WONT just have a pile of diapers and food and toys magically appear in her living room. its like people who get sick and say their faith will cure them.. well, maybe God will cure them by having them find the right doctor and medicine. you gotta take SOME initiative!

sunflowergirl68
08-22-2009, 07:09 PM
thank you. ;)

i was a single mom when i was in my early twenties and BELIEVE me, if someone had been offering me free food and diapers, etc, i wouldve taken it in a heartbeat. when you decide to have children, you dont get to be focused on yourself any more. you CHOSE to have them/keep them and in doing so you (should) realize that your choices dont get to be all about you anymore. if someone is giving you free diapers and you feel embarrassed about it, you have to say to yourself, "whats more important? my pride (or whatever her reasoning is)? or my kid?" if her answer to those questions are not "my childs best interests", then she needs to have the kids put in foster care with families who have better priorities.

i also find it interesting that she seems to put all her worries up to God, which is fine, but does it never occur to her that maybe God's way of helping her is to have people offering her all these things? maybe God WONT just have a pile of diapers and food and toys magically appear in her living room. its like people who get sick and say their faith will cure them.. well, maybe God will cure them by having them find the right doctor and medicine. you gotta take SOME initiative!


And that's a huge criticism of Octomom... she basically had a hoard of children because she was "lonely" as a child. That's selfish. And to not keep donations because of some kind of pride issue... that's selfish. When you have kids, or a kid, you are not longer the most important thing, your kids are.

The thing is too, about people relying on God for help, there's this joke:

~There was a man called him Jim, who lived near a river. Jim was a very religious man.

One day, the river rose over the banks and flooded the town, and Jim was forced to climb onto his porch roof. While sitting there, a man in a boat comes along and tells Jim to get in the boat with him. Jim says "No, that's ok. God will take care of me." So, the man in the boat drives off.

The water rises, so Jim climbs onto his roof. At that time, another boat comes along and the person in that one tells Jim to get in. Jim replies, "No, that's ok. God will take care of me." The person in the boat then leaves.

The water rises even more, and Jim climbs on his chimney. Then a helicopter comes and lowers a ladder. The woman in the helicopter tells Jim to climb up the ladder and get in. Jim tells her "That's ok." The woman says "Are you sure?" Jim says, "Yeah, I'm sure God will take care of me.

Finally, the water rises too high and Jim drowns. Jim gets up to Heaven and is face-to-face with God. Jim says to God "You told me you would take care of me!
What happened?"

God replied "Well, I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What else did you want?"

I think that's so wonderful that Nadya Suleman has faith in God... but I honestly believe that since she still has so many people willing to help her and she won't take their help, she is a fool. God does not magically appear and give help.... God works through other people in mysterious ways. It's like when I got sick with thyroid cancer.... I could have just sat in my room and prayed that the tumor and cancer would go away, and have faith in God that way, but I didn't. I went to the doctor, had surgery, and that's how God helped me. I honestly have nothing against religious people who refuse medical treatment, I just think that God works in more subtle ways now.