Faith Based Support Groups - What's Wrong With Churches?

Over the years on 3FC I have heard many reasons why some of us don't go to church.

As most of you know...I do...and love my church....

I read an article tonight in our local paper about a church that I have gone to for Christmas and Easter presentations ...a very large one...over 10,000 members. Anyway, for those of you that know of Crystal Cathedral, know that they had had some "issues" recently.

I believe that most churches do have "issues" from time to time...no matter the size or religion....

I could tell you several of things right with my church....

But what I want to know is what do you think is "wrong" with churches?

And even better..."why" don't you go?

or "why" you do go....

I am so sorry to hear that the Crystal Cathedral is going down a rough road. I am one that does not go to church. I have been judged because I don't. I get up and listen to church on TV, love Joel Olsten preaching, because most the time he gives me a message I need to hear.
One reason I want my husband to go with me if I ever find one, suppose to go to a Cowboy church the end of this month at the rodeo grounds in Marble falls with a friend of mine. Listen to them on tv and my husband listens to that church too. They say in plain words that a simple person like me can understand and take to heart. You have been blessed to find a church you love Gary I have not yet. But I have been baptized in the eyes of our Lord in the Church Of Christ. That does not mean I am a Church Of Christ though, it means I love Jesus and I wanted to be baptized with in his faith in his eyes and that he knows I love and believe in him. Jesus is the only reason I was baptized not to belong to a church.

I go to St. Xavier's Sunday mornings, it's lovely, and peaceful, and the services make me feel more connected to my community, the homilies are often thoughtful, funny, pertinent.

it also let's me reconnect to my spiritual feelings, that the week's craziness can pull me away from.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af195/dragonwoman64/stfrancis2008-2.jpg

Well Gary, since you asked... :)

I grew up in a small town here in GA, raised Southern Baptist with a Primitive Baptist preacher for a grandfather. I have never been comfortable with churches. Too many people, not enough true practice of faith. I admit to being an atheist, but I have nothing but respect for people who truly believe for their own valid reasons and live that faith. You can't live that faith when you are more worried about what kind of shoes another person has on than the sermon. You can't live that faith when you throw out a member who brings his foster child, a 6 year old African American child who had been in foster care for three years before this white family took him in, and remind said member 'our church bylaws (from 1845) say none of those black people can come in the doors'. You can't live that faith when you vote out every preacher who tells you that coming to church on Sundays doesn't make up for the terrible things you do during the week. You can't live that faith when you brainwash small children to a belief system before they are old enough to understand and make their own valid choices of their faith.

There is no room for politics in a church, in my opinion. Churches that preach politics aren't churches and should lose the tax exempt protections that they have.

Churches shouldn't exist just to further a person's place in society. I remember watching people at the big First Baptist Church in my hometown spend years trying to work their way up from the back pews to the front, because the front pews were the doctors and the lawyers and the city councilmen.

Churches shouldn't be about hatred or racism or bigotry or discrimination.

Churches should be about learning about your chosen faith. Asking questions should be encouraged, not criticized. That is an opportunity to share your message, take it.

I don't go now because I don't believe. When I was younger and still questioning I stopped going as soon as I was old enough to get a part time job and work on Sunday. I hated the hypocrisy and the judging and the ugliness hidden behind a pretty shine. And I went to several different churches of different denominations, so I didn't just get a bad one. My parents are still having troubles at their church to this day, they aren't going to church right now either. Which I actually find sad, because they do believe and find comfort in church and the same drama has caused them to stop something that they enjoy.

Okay, end rant. ;)

Well, right now, we mostly go to my husband's Catholic Church (he goes more than me for health reason's), even though I am Protestant in my beliefs, but we try to focus on what we have in common rather than dispute what we don't agree on. Some of DH's friend try to debate me about their doctrines, but I won't go there becuz I think that is futile.

I am a thinker and a true believer, in that I read the bible myself, and I study Christian literature regularly; and I have even studied other religions to understand their beliefs as well. On occasion, DH & I will go to a Protestant church of my choosing just for something different esp for me, which is only fair, I think.

I have had many good experiences but also some notsogood ones, like others have stated already; and there were some periods in my life where I didn't go to church for awhile, becuz I couldn't find one where I felt accepted and comfortable.

Most of all, I try not let my belief in GOD & JESUS be affected by the faults of church members or leaders who are flawed human beings, but I do know what others mean when they say that they have witnessed or experienced things that really turned them off; I think many of us have sometime in our lives ...

I can understand why SHANNON feels the way she does about the things she saw or heard in the churches she went to; but I think it's a shame to see someone lose their faith for those kinds of reasons, becuz in a sense they are cheated of the benefits of Faith becuz of someone else's misguided ideas and behavior.

BOOTSIE ~ some may not like that I say this, but I don't think we should go to a church if we don't feel good about it. I have been to churches where our family was berated by a minister (when we were children), so we left and didn't go to church for years. Thankfully, most of us still believe, or have returned to our beliefs.

I have even been berated in 2 churches about my weight -- I walked out the door and didn't go back. If they care, then they should pray for me, not criticize me in public -- that is cruel discrimination, which is not GODLY or Christian. So I go home and pray for those ministers that GOD will open their hearts and eyes to GOD's Love.

Today, I am looking for a church that exemplifies GOD's Word and HIS Love by their words and examples. I know that no-one is perfect, and so we pick based on what we feel is best for us. Right now, that is my DH's church; and I watch THE HOUR OF POWER (Crystal Cathedral) for myself which I can do at home even when I don't feel well enuff to go out. They also send their positive and uplifting sermons and devotionals to my email so I can catch up when I want to.

As a matter of fact, I watch and read as many ministers as I can find; and I do 2 or 3 devotionals each day, and sometimes more. I try to spend at least an hour a day in prayer and praise for others, as well as reading the the bible each day. I am the type that needs to be challenged in my thoughts and spirit, as well as finding peace and serenity and belonging -- that is the kind of church I would like to go to ...

Sorry, if I went on too long ... :hug:

We attend a United Methodist Church (I grew up UCC and DH grew up Baptist). We LOVE our church family.

Why do we attend?

Faith is meant to be lived out in community. While I certainly am able to be a Christian without attending church, being part of a church family is important. We do truly love each other and surround each other with prayers and support.

We have a wonderful church family. Each and every one of us has our issues. Not one of us is perfect. I struggle with folk that say they don't attend because they don't like how Christians behave. Being a Christian doesn't make us magically perfect. We still struggle with temptations and behave in ways that are not always Christ-like. We are all GROWING in our faith, and it is a journey - much like our weight loss journey is.

Our congregation is a very AWESOME group of folk. We have so many members that have come to us after trying out other churches. They felt like outsiders because they were "different" than the majority of the members.

We have people from all walks of life, all age groups, all income levels, etc. We are a diverse group, but together, we can do so much more than we can separately!

Like being at 3FC is a blessing because traveling this weight loss journey alone would be much more difficult, being a part of my church family gives me support and love and an opportunity to grow and share with others.

Our church vison statement pretty much sums it up, "Growing In God’s Grace, Sharing Christ’s Love - Together."

Mediocrity and conformity, mostly. Church was mostly pulling me down instead of pushing me up.

Thank you all for your responses :)

It isn't a secret around here that I really love my church. Each week, as we finish the closing hymn, I take a few seconds to look up at the crucifix we have (a beautiful sculpture made by former San Diego Charger, Ed White) and the stained glass windows....I thank God for the opportunity to come worship Him here and ask that He bring me back the following week.

I know that not everyone desires the same thing.

What bothers me sometimes though is things that people say that simply are not true.

My cousin, who just celebrated his 50th wedding anniversary a few days ago (yours truly :) me :) was his ring bearer 50 years ago! at the age of 5) has some interesting views on church., and he has passed these down to his children...who are in their 40's and not little kids.

Anyway, one thing he says is ...."All churches want is your money"....no matter how many times I tell him that my church has NEVER asked me for money...ever. I will admit we have one stewardship service each year explaining God's Word on tithing...10% in the Old Testament...from your Heart in the New Testament. We also ask for "anonymous" pledges from time to time so we can budget. He also feels Pastors should work for free...yet he feels he should be paid for his work...go figure ;)

Now, I have been around long enough to know that $$$ is an issue at many churches.

One of his sons claims to be a Catholic, went to a Catholic church with his ex-wife for about a year.....over 10 years ago.....never been back....yet he claims to be a Catholic and his dad says things like...."well it's because he is a Catholic"....huh?...As far as I can remember....and I changed his diapers!...he has never mentioned church around me.

The other son said this to me a few years ago the day after Christmas..."I wonder how many atheists celebrated yesterday"....huh?....This man....as far as I know...and he is my cousin...has never sat foot in a church or opened the Bible...yet it is fine for him to celebrate Christmas and not an atheist?...huh...

I will be back to chat....another day:)

Julie, that quite possibly is the best reason I've heard yet to quit attending church/es. I couldn't agree with you more.

For what it's worth the Bible does state that where "two or more" are gathered in His name, there is a church.

For what it's worth the Bible does state that where "two or more" are gathered in His name, there is a church.

"For where two or three come together in my name, there I am with them." Matthew 18:20

Isn't that wonderful! No matter how big a church or small...no matter in a building or home, a fox hole, a barrack, hospital, nursing home... on a street corner...He is with us...always...if we are in His Word!

Awesome stuff...awesome :)

Gary yes I have heard views that way too. I don't have anyone ,it is only me but I have always been a loner unless you count my animals beside me,praising Jesus and talking to him. The place I feel the closest to him is under the great stars our Father created. I just feel sometimes I could reach up and touch him.
He is so awesome!

BOOTSIE ~ I have heard about those COWBOY Churches...sounds like a great idea to me! I have been blessed to have my church....that is why I try to encourage others to find one they feel at home in. My Pastor has never said anything from the pulpit that I did not understand...and as you said "we" are simple people....although I may not understand preaching at the Cowboy Church...with that Texas twang and all ;) When we baptise folks at our church they are baptised in the name of Christ...not our religion...we belong to Him...not our church or religion :hug:

DRAGONWOMAN ~ What a beautiful place to worship! How close is it to Wagner University?...do you know?

SHANNON ~ How horrible! I remember when I first started going to my church, about 27 years ago...I was about 28 so fairly young. I was at a social event for our church, our Pastor (still the same one today) came by my table to sit for a bit with my ex-wife and I....while we were chatting an older women...I'll say around 60 or so came up to introduce herself...very nice. As the conversation went on she made mention of the "shoes" the boys were wearing when they did their acolyte duties....evidently some where wearing tennis shoes :o Now my Pastor calmed her down and explained to her in his awesome way..."it isn't about the shoes" .

I will tell you our religion, by tradition is "white" :) I will also tell you that my congregation has all races and colors as far as I can tell...many a mixed race too...Thank-You God!

I can tell you that my church, as far as I can tell from talking "politics" around coffee in the patio area, is Republican. I can also swear that I have never ever heard anything political coming from our pulpit. We always pray for our leaders, as Christ instructed us to. I will admit that our Pastor is not afraid to tell a joke about a red or blue politician either...or the San Diego Chargers/Padres....and of course being a Minnesota Vikings fan he is always ragging on the Packers!...and the Vikings ;)

I cracked up at the "seating"...we traditionally sit at the back :D I sit far left, 8th row back from the front...5 rows behind me...always have. We are near the cry room...in case someone needs to run out with a crying baby (now this does not mean that we don't have commotion going on with the little kids either) I enjoy the kids...I hand out baseball cards to them and they love it! I sat there when mine were babies and grew to adults...I am not leaving my pew!...my pew!!...all mine...;)

If you have any questions I would NOT criticize you for asking...I promise! :)

ROSEBUD ~ I find it apalling that you have been criticed for your weight at church...or anywhere! We go way back so I know where you are :hug: I love what you say about not letting your love for Christ be broken by flawed human beings! :)

SCOOTER ~ Ditto your post! :)

JULIE ~ I am sorry your church experience was pulling you down...it shouldn't be that way. That is not God's way.

Thigs Be Gone ~ Thank you for the reminder that church can be anywhere that God and the Word is present.

Thanks for your input ~ Gary

I watched Hour of Power for many years and was a big fan. I did get much encouragement and blessings from it ........but I noticed as years passed a lack of humility and found the emphasis had changed as to where the real power is.

Bargoo you are so right!

BARGOO & BOOSTIE ~ yes, I agree with both of you about the CC Ministries, as I started to notice some odd things a few years ago myself (a blip here and there); and from what I have read, the board noticed it too and asked the founding minister to come back out of retirement for the next two years to work along with a mix of guest pastors and teachers to restore and improve that ministry during these hard times. I am enjoying the sermons and devotionals much more these days too.

No matter what church or Christian ministry you are, we always have to be very diligent that we do not stray from our original mission -- and that is to share the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and Our Father GOD in heaven, who loves and cares about us all.

GARY ~ thanks for your kind supporting words. You are indeed blessed to have found such a wonderful place of worship. Part of our problem is that we live in a small town in an isolated area; if we lived further south, we would have many more churches to choose from. Christians who read the bible know that ministers are supposed to be paid for this work, although some Amish pastors do hold down jobs and share preaching and teaching with a large group of volunteers (as many as 12 in some churches) and they hold services in different homes (we attended one when we were kids a few times). I am hearing of small groups that are now meeting in homes, and some churches are even renting space to these groups on Saturdays and off times too, and that works out well for all involved.

I do go to church and really like the one we're at now, but that hasn't always been the case. In my opinion, what's wrong with most churches is that the leadership doesn't really believe that what the Bible says is the complete and total truth. If the pastor &/or other leadership aren't true believers, no one will hear the gospel and there will be problems. I was a member of a church with a believing pastor (he married us), but the church's committee members got tired of hearing the gospel preached, so they voted to ask him to transfer and we ended up with someone who was just looking for extra retirement income and had no idea what the gospel actually said or meant. We left that church after being members for several years, so we could find a church that would actually help us learn and keep growing. When the leadership doesn't believe, no one in the church will be learning or growing and the membership will really be no different than the rest of the world around them.

What is wrong with churches? WOW what a loaded question. I have been looking for a new church due to a move, And I am looking for a church or a body of believers who are willing to not be conformed to the world, but I see the church not standing outside the world but embracing the world. I want to see the transformation of the renewing of there minds, by believing like the previous poster said, by believing in God, in Jesus that he came to set us free, by believing in the word and standing on it. That we are overcomers. I don't believe it is just the leaderships responsibility but all believers, but people do look to leadership and as the saying goes as the preacher, minister, priest, so goes the church. Since I have seen a lot of churches I have seen a lot of insecure people, masking and window dressing., It really saddens me. But we are sheep and from what I have heard from the different churches is they are crying out. And most want the power of the Holy Spirit, and desire and a hunger to move in power and prayer, once again. I have seen some very strong churches too, but not very many. I do believe that God will bring healing to his beloved church in her weakness, But for now she is being humbled.

I have been to Crystal Cathedral a few times for the Easter and Christmas shows as I mentioned but I have not seen the Hour Of Power for years and years. Most of my information comes from the Faith and Values section of our local paper. That is where I have been reading about the change back to dad Schuller and now the daughter seems to be running things. The church is about 50 miles from me and I pass by it often.

I have seen interviews with Joel Osteen but have never seen his show either.

I do know some TV evangelists sure give (and not speaking of the above) the Christian faith a black eye :(

Since I go to church on a very regular basis I don't watch it on TV much but I do thank God for the vessel that many can learn and grow from His Word. I think as long as we use our heads and hearts and Bibles as we watch...God will show us the Way :)

All churches are different. Some have volunteer pastors...some congregations provide housing and the pastor/minister needs to work elsewhere too. Our Pastor has a full time job with our church. We give him a check each week and he pays taxes and provides for his own housing, food, etc just as we do. There is no right or wrong...all of us worship in different situations.

If your leadership doesn't believe the Bible then run...run as fast as you can to another church!

AZULFIRE, No matter the direction "a church" is going...we can move with the Power Of the Holy Spirit and spread the message individually. God has placed us in the world to do what He asks us to and that is to "make disciples of all nations"

I think AZULFIRE makes an awesome statement here....but I...and only speaking for me...I feel that our relationship with Christ is a personal one. We each need to do what we feel He asks of us...we are all of one body...but separate parts of the Body Of Christ.

Just as I feel one person can sour many in a church....I feel one person can turn that church around with their love of our Lord :)

In Christ ~ Gary

Hi,
I always called myself a christian. But,w/in the last year I find myself growing more in Christ. And developing a deeper relationship w/him. I know it is there. However,I do not go to church.I know it is wrong not to go. Why am I not going?I don't know if it's just laziness or not finding the church that is right for me.If someone could give me some suggestions,that would be great.I live in a small town,so there are not alot of options.The church I was going to ,just didn't do it for me.However,someone told me ,you don't go to church to get something out of it,you go to honor God.Which makes sense I guess.I do pray and talk to God. But,it is in the back of my mind I should be doing more.

Hi,
I always called myself a christian. But,w/in the last year I find myself growing more in Christ. And developing a deeper relationship w/him. I know it is there. However,I do not go to church.I know it is wrong not to go. Why am I not going?I don't know if it's just laziness or not finding the church that is right for me.If someone could give me some suggestions,that would be great.I live in a small town,so there are not alot of options.The church I was going to ,just didn't do it for me.However,someone told me ,you don't go to church to get something out of it,you go to honor God.Which makes sense I guess.I do pray and talk to God. But,it is in the back of my mind I should be doing more.


Tracy, hi. :) If your heart is telling you to do more, then you need too. Don't be so afraid of metting people and a different church-it will feel strange, kind off like, "Who are these people?" But, we'll always have to face uncomfortable situations in life, what matters is not the church or religion, but the feeling of God around you and inside your soul.

We all just need to find God, and see who he really is. And fallow is love and glory. But, like you said, honnoring-I think you can't honnor him if your not in a church you feel relaxed in and like, one that doesn't seem fake and dishonest. You can honnor God anytime, no matter were you are. What's importent is reseaving his messages. ...and to me honnoring? To me honnoring him is loving him. Knowing him. Wanting to do his will, and help this world. Wanting to bring love and joy and understanding into peoples lifes, and to grow wise in his ways. That's honnoring. Loving him, when your unsure of God and don't feel like you know him...can you say you know him. Faith and asking him to simply come into your life, is the start of understanding of chance.

Sometimes we disagree with the church and wounder why does this seem wrong to me? Just look for the right church, ones that seem full of love. You don't have to go to church to get closer to God, but if you go to the right one for you, it will bring you to him. Ask him for guidence, to help derect you in what your suppose to do. Some people are so blind...they don't really know what it is to feel him, or his love. If you feel alone and missing, then our lifes will never be right or complete. God isn't some icon of power...I think people have been blinded by the misleading, we all need to have open hearts to him, so we can feel him as he is, and not as we think he is.

I go to Central Christian Church. I really like it. It's a very up beat church that's really modern, with Chirstian rock music and really good songs and the paster takes things from the bible and each week has a theme about life. And what everyone one is going threw. God's truth of his love, just settles over everyone and you can just feel the peace in all of our hearts there, leveryone looks calm and happy. You need a church that doesn't yell religion in your face and scorns you(that's not were God is), but one that 'speeks' with care and derectly to your heart, no matter the people sitting around you. This is you and him. You feel loved and safe there...I think that's what everyone is thursting for. A church that heals you. This one does. I think it has a website too.
Don't be afraid to check it out, it's really cool. I can't post it becuase it says I have to have 25 posts. *scuffs*

Sorry for the lecture. :(

Check if there's one near you. I deeply encourage anyone who is serching for a church to check out Central's like broke cast online.

I don't always agree with what churches say or do, I am really strongly apposted to seeing so much bull and misleading things in religions that has nothing to do truth and purity of mind, body, and soul. but I like mine. I'm a very spiritiual person more then anything, and am still walking down my own journey to God and his plan for me.

Oh and Tracy, I know you'll find that deeper connection. :) Just keep your heart and mind open, and push out all the things that we have come to believe is God..and let him show you himself.
...Just ask him to come into your heart...for him to show you, and he will anwser you, in a way you'll know it's him. He works in misterious ways.
One of the problems we face today is that when were not open to him, we miss his wispers...and never think he answers us, or is there.

God bless.

(sorry for all the writing, I got into it.)

And all God wants...is to show you how much he deeply loves you. <3 He wants to shed his light apon you. To express your safe and loved. And that he knows you more then anyone. All your thoughts, wishes and dreams. That he's always there, and loves you unconditionally. We are his children.

As I read some of these responses, I can't help but feel that we should be focusing more on WHAT'S RIGHT WITH CHURCHES and HOW CAN WE FIND ONE THAT'S RIGHT FOR US?

I read the bible every day, and I have never found any verse that says that NOT going to church is 'WRONG' per se, but we are encourgaged to "gather together with other believers" for OUR benefit. And, I've never read that going to church is solely for 'honoring GOD', but it is does say or refer to this -- a temple or church is supposed to be ...

1 -- a HOUSE OF PRAYER
2 -- a place of gathering for believers
3 -- a place of edification (specifically for believers)
4 -- a place to share the gospel
5 -- a place to study the scriptures
6 -- a place to learn how to live in a GODLY manner
7 -- a place of praise and worship (with word, song, and music)

Now, as GARY and others say and believe, we know that we can do all the above anywhere -- in a church building, or a home, or a subway, or a barn (we have one minister who turned his barn into a kind of church here), or a theater, or a school, or an empty storage building, a borrowed church, OR even as Jesus did, out in the open, like on a beach or a park ...

I find it interesting that JESUS taught and preached in the outdoors, and in natural settings more than anywhere else that we know, even the temples; and that was free, but this fact is not often mentioned by those who want us to go to their churches ... lol!

Mostly, I think that it would be lovely to be able to find a place where you can make Christian friends, pray and praise and worship together, learn together, socialize & play together, get counselling & encouragement, and other Christian supports ... I mean, the church could be much more than they often are.

I have to agree with the observation that churches are only as good as the minister and/or leaders that are running them, becuz they can either make a church or break it. I find some people aren't even listening half the time to what is being preached; and I am sometimes aghast at what I hear and see in some places.

In the end, I think that you should pray about it, then go and try out every church in your town or area a few times each. In the meanwhile, get lots of Christian teaching whenever or wherever you can thru a multitude of sources, and go to a church of your personal choice and preference where you and your family members all feel comfortable and welcome ...

ROSEBUD ~ I had hoped my "what's wrong with churches?" would be taken 2 ways....

"What's wrong with churches" :shrug: (Nothing.....)

"What's wrong with churches?" :nono: (oh let me tell you....)

I think most church goers can tell you stories on both sides of course.

I think most of us agree here so far that one does not have to be in a church to have a relationship with our Lord.

God tells us that we grow closer to Him in His Word. Now, I know that many people study the Word on their own....many in groups. I think one benefit we receive by hearing the Word in church is sometimes the pastor brings it to you in a way we may not have seen before.

We never know where God is going to "touch" us....I can't tell you how many times that sermon was "just for me" at the right time.

Many times I hustle into church and right on out again...like tonight...we were heading for Mexican food for dinner! But on the way out I ran into a guy that I haven't seen in a while, we talked college football for a few minutes and as we parted ways in the parking lot he hollered back to us..."it sure is good to see you both"

Another thing I like going to church for is to keep up with people on our prayer list. I have been going for many years, I have seen many pass on and have seen many new births of course.

Tonight I spent a few minutes talking with a member that runs our local Little League....years ago his dad ran the one I was in. There was a fire in the storage shed at the field...burned about 5 thousand worth of equipment. I grew up in that neighborhood....our talk brought up memories from the past.

I am fortunate that our church has a Saturday night service too. We went tonight since I worked today.....missing a walk with my "girls"....off to the beach in the morning for a 3 mile walk and spinach croissants at the beach cafe ;)

TRACY....I hope you find a "home" :)

SNOWWOLF....I don't think anyone would feel lectured by your thoughts...thanks :)

Later ~ Gary

Justwant2Bhealthy, that would be so awseome, to have mass outside. Someone needs to get that started, if I ever become a pasture I'd do it outdoors, nature ties into everything about...the world.

And thank you, EZMONEY. :)

oh, and on another note: It's not about finding a church for you...it's about finding God in one. (why waste your energy focusing on why churches are bad...just keep moving on-keep looking for any good one, it's not going to benifit us feeling cheated...I've learned.)

There is so much more that he is wanting from us then just reading the bible or going to church... sometimes...he wants us to take our minds off of phisically going...phisically looking for him...for his word...hearing the words of a pasture isn't enough. We do need these things. But I honestly think we're missing the simpliest ways to hear him, to worship... it's up to us to understand how.

Sorry, I keep feeling like, there is something needing to be said. :?: But I don't know how. I tried. Hope, someone can get something from what I'm trying to get across.

Wierd question. Can anyone say they feel his love?

Thanks Everyone,
I do appreciate your suggestions.I know if I pray about it more I will I will be led in the right direction-Thanks snowolf:)

You are so right SNOW WOLF :) God does want more from us than reading the Bible and going to church. You are a smart kiddo!

We can find God in the outdoors....away from people....away from Pastors and video screens. He is there...we can see His works and feel His nature that He created for us. We have had some church services outside for special reasons...very cool.

God also sends us into the world...we are not of this world but we are in it...created in it by Him. By going to church we are able to share with each other.....share our comforting visits with the elderly...volunteer at VBS, Youth Groups and Sunday School classes...encouraging younger members. We learn of wonderful things members are doing in the ministry....we see the results of our $$$ in mission work. So much more. We would not be able to do these things if we went off by ourselves.

I think we all know what you are trying to say...I think you are looking for one word...BALANCE :)

And yes....I can feel God's Love....

I feel it when I hold my wife....when my daughter or son tells me they love me at the end of our daily phone conversations...in their "hold me daddy's" when they were young....when my nephew called today to "share" his NOT getting a ticket ;)....and to tell me he got the "let's just be friends" call from his girl...I felt God's love in giving support.

I saw God's love today in the ocean waves...the warmth of the sun...the wagging tails on my golden retrievers as we walked down the beach.

I smelled God's love in the ocean air....the smells of the breakfasts being cooked in the motor homes parked at the beach.

We can feel God's love always....because it is always there...sometimes in our hardships we feel it isn't there...but that is what we are feeling...sometimes are feelings are not the TRUTH.

In Christ ~ Gary

Snow-Wolf ~ yes, yes, yes, I think you hit the nail on the head really -- that is it ... GOD'S LOVE is missing in some churches, OR more importantly, you can find GOD'S LOVE in some churches more than others ...

Yes, I find it much easier to find GOD'S LOVE in many other places than in some churches: outdoors; in nature; in my furry boy's face and his loving ways towards us (I really think our pets are one of GOD's greatest sources of HIS LOVE); in the night skies; the stars; the happy face man on the moon; real love in some families, like the real LOVE I felt from my Grammies ...

EZ ~ I so admire the great kind of love that you have in your family; but I'm afraid that isn't the way it is for too many of us. Both my DH and I come from families that it's hard to find love in -- there is more criticism, and greed, and selfishness, and jealousy, and competition than love. Now, some members are loving, but others you want to run from becuz they are so critical and negative of us. They say hurtful things to us and behind our backs and it is so hard for us to deal with.

So I cling to the love I have found in GOD and JESUS: becuz without it, I think I would have died long ago. It is and has been GOD'S LOVE that keeps me going each day; it is GOD'S LOVE that gives me HOPE; it is GOD'S LOVE that carries me; it is GOD'S LOVE that heals me; it is GOD'S LOVE that holds me up; it is GOD'S LOVE that comforts me; and it is GOD'S LOVE that leads me on! Yes, I even think GOD'S LOVE is what I live for!

This may be GOD'S doing, but as time goes on; I am learning to lean on HIM more and more, and less on those around me for that love. We all need love; but to me, GOD'S LOVE is the most pure love that exists. Just like PAUL says in his list of what love is and isn't, GOD'S LOVE is different: GOD's love doesn't disappoint, GOD's love doesn't criticize, GOD's love cares, GOD's love listens, GOD's love is reliable, GOD's love doesn't put land and things before his children ... in GOD's love, we come first ...

That is why GOD is my true Father and my real Abba dad; and Jesus is my true brother and my real friend ... they are my best friends. Yes, they come before my earthy partner and my boy, NIKO sure comes in there too, becuz he is so loving and kind ...

It is GOD'S LOVE that I was looking for many years ago when I searched and found him; and I guess that is why I am still having trouble finding that LOVE in some of the churches I have been to here. If you cut me up becuz I'm fat, how is that showing me GOD'S LOVE? If you put down my spouse and say mean things, how is that loving?

I think that is what's missing or wrong with some churches -- they lack GOD'S LOVE ...

Thank you, Snow Wolf! :hug:

You have found the unconditional love ROSEBUD...as we both know.

That only comes from ONE source!

There is a lot of love in my family....and...there has been a lot of hurt too. Going to church and learning to walk a little more Christ-like each and every day has helped me to help mend issues my family has had. As in all families...all is not peaches and cream!

If one is looking for a church where everyone is showing God's love perfectly then I wanna go there! Our church has had it's nastiness too...we are full of sinners over there!

The ticket for me is to look past that and keep focus on THE WORD and not the human...

I am really enjoying our chats here!

He has blessed you...other's have hurt you...that is not His way...He has worked things together for good in you.

In His Love ~ Gary

He has worked things together for good in you.

Yes, I agree about that. I think the negative (bad) experiences we go through helps to create the positive (good) in us. So I am constantly examining myself to see if I am critical; and I think this has made me much more sensitive to other people's feelings in my life.


Conversely, sometimes people tend to idealize others: like some people think that my DH is perfect (esp other women becuz that is what they want to believe), but the truth is that he is just as flawed as any other man, but I don't go around exposing his shortcomings to everyone I meet, simply becuz it isn't any of their business anyways. ;)

Now, my weight is a very noticeable flaw and people make comments about it; and that makes me feel bad for him sometimes, but he says, when they put me down, they forget that they are putting him down too; and I said the same goes for me. When my father criticizes my spouse, he is indirectly doing the same to me, becuz I chose him (even though at the time, I may not have known all his faults).

Now, I don't think I am responsible for my DH's imperfections and I shouldn't be, just as he shouldn't have to be for mine -- but we just hope in GOD'S grace that we are FORGIVEN for those shortcomings. Not everyone agrees in this life by what standard we judge or discern by. For example, I don't judge people by what they look like or how much money they have or where they live, but too many people do.

Yes, we have dreams like everybody else, and we are doing the best we can, with what we have; and to rise above the limitations that we were dealt with in this life; but I think that we are doing great -- considering we aren't getting any help from anyone, except GOD (mind you, that made me laugh, becuz who else bigger could you have on your side). It's strange to me that some don't realize or appreciate the daily obstacles that my DH and I have overcome to achieve what we have so far.

My earthly father cannot seem to stop talking to us kids like we are under 10 years old. I am having trouble ignoring it, as we find it so insulting. I am 50 years old and my Dad talks to me like I'm 5 -- and my DH is 62 years old and gonna be collecting his old age pension soon, and my Dad talks to him like he's only 6 and doesn't know anything ... :?:

Now I remember telling someone recently; that I am firm believer from my experience, that to children our parents will always be parents (and not the friends that we'd hoped for, once we became adults) simply becuz some of our parents can't stop seeing us and treating us as little children!

GEE, I just realized that I got way off topic in this post, but maybe it is indirectly related. Maybe if I can get a handle on this, then I can look at those in churches that confuse me or hurt me or whatever, with less dismay, and somehow learn to ignore them, so I can go to church and enjoy myself once again ... So, how do I do that, GARY? :shrug:

Cuz one of two things can happen: either you become very critical of others too (which I now abhor), or you end up living like the 'walking wounded', which isn't a fun or pleasant way to live either.

I know that I prayed about this a lot; and I felt impressed with this answer -- that GOD wanted me to realize that HE can use imperfect people too, even if they were making very noticeable mistakes; and that in our weakness, HE becomes stronger. In other words, even if a minister is flawed, and makes some gross errors, GOD can still use him to do HIS work, and he will still reach those that GOD wants him to at the time. This helped give me a different perspective, I must say.

However, I think that I need more grease in my feathers, so that the personal insults can run off me, like water off a duck's back ... :lol:

Presently, I am trying to focus on FORGIVENESS, but sometimes, it's very, very hard; especially at the time. I just keep praying, 'Lord, help me forgive them like you do, OR please forgive them for me'; and then please heal and bind my hurt so that I can move on and be an overcomer in this life.

Sorry, for rambling ... :D

Yes, I agree about that. I think the negative (bad) experiences we go through helps to create the positive (good) in us. So I am constantly examining myself to see if I am critical; and I think this has made me much more sensitive to other people's feelings in my life.

It is difficult to look at ourselves sometimes Rosebud...we all want to be the "right" one!


Conversely, sometimes people tend to idealize others: like some people think that my DH is perfect (esp other women becuz that is what they want to believe), but the truth is that he is just as flawed as any other man, but I don't go around exposing his shortcomings to everyone I meet, simply becuz it isn't any of their business anyways. ;)

We are all flawed...I find the more I look at ANGIE as the "PERFECT WIFE"...as in Perfect for me :)...the more beauty I see in her over the things she does/doesn't do that upset me...or used to!

Now, my weight is a very noticeable flaw and people make comments about it; and that makes me feel bad for him sometimes, but he says, when they put me down, they forget that they are putting him down too; and I said the same goes for me. When my father criticizes my spouse, he is indirectly doing the same to me, becuz I chose him (even though at the time, I may not have known all his faults).

Most people look at "people" that aren't like them as being...odd...some tease and are mean...others walk/run away...but SOME don't...SOME have matured...SOME have experienced the same issues...If a father criticizes to be mean...well he is mean...his problem not yours! Not saying it doesn't hurt :hug:

Now, I don't think I am responsible for my DH's imperfections and I shouldn't be, just as he shouldn't have to be for mine -- but we just hope in GOD'S grace that we are FORGIVEN for those shortcomings. Not everyone agrees in this life by what standard we judge or discern by. For example, I don't judge people by what they look like or how much money they have or where they live, but too many people do.

We are forgiven for our weakness!

Yes, we have dreams like everybody else, and we are doing the best we can, with what we have; and to rise above the limitations that we were dealt with in this life; but I think that we are doing great -- considering we aren't getting any help from anyone, except GOD (mind you, that made me laugh, becuz who else bigger could you have on your side). It's strange to me that some don't realize or appreciate the daily obstacles that my DH and I have overcome to achieve what we have so far.

Life does come easier for some than others...but that does not take away from the life God has planned for you! Human nature tells us to want-want-want what the other guy has. Been God, in His infinite wisdom knows that that is not the life for us! Our life does not end here on this earth!

My earthly father cannot seem to stop talking to us kids like we are under 10 years old. I am having trouble ignoring it, as we find it so insulting. I am 50 years old and my Dad talks to me like I'm 5 -- and my DH is 62 years old and gonna be collecting his old age pension soon, and my Dad talks to him like he's only 6 and doesn't know anything ... :?:

Some dads seem to not allow their kids to grow up...if it is disrespect then...well it is...it is sad...but again..it is his problem and sad that his problem hurts you and dh.

Now I remember telling someone recently; that I am firm believer from my experience, that to children our parents will always be parents (and not the friends that we'd hoped for, once we became adults) simply becuz some of our parents can't stop seeing us and treating us as little children!

GEE, I just realized that I got way off topic in this post, but maybe it is indirectly related. Maybe if I can get a handle on this, then I can look at those in churches that confuse me or hurt me or whatever, with less dismay, and somehow learn to ignore them, so I can go to church and enjoy myself once again ... So, how do I do that, GARY? :shrug:

Don't make the answer too difficult dear! The answer is you GO! What happened in the past is...well...the past. Don't allow the past to take the glory God has for you in your future!

Cuz one of two things can happen: either you become very critical of others too (which I now abhor), or you end up living like the 'walking wounded', which isn't a fun or pleasant way to live either.

I love my sister dearly...but she can be the most negative (besides my brother) person I know! She even said...I don't like Angie...when we started dating...now, she had only met her one time...NOW...I have a choice to make...quit dating my future wife and make my sister happy OR do the right thing and keep dating this women I adored AND "forget" what my sister said and move on like nothing happened. You know what I did. My sister has a lot of criticism in her...I have seen it is mostly for people that have MORE than her...she also has a lot of love in her too!

I know that I prayed about this a lot; and I felt impressed with this answer -- that GOD wanted me to realize that HE can use imperfect people too, even if they were making very noticeable mistakes; and that in our weakness, HE becomes stronger. In other words, even if a minister is flawed, and makes some gross errors, GOD can still use him to do HIS work, and he will still reach those that GOD wants him to at the time. This helped give me a different perspective, I must say.

Most, if not all of the Bible heroes were flawed!

However, I think that I need more grease in my feathers, so that the personal insults can run off me, like water off a duck's back ... :lol:

Sticks and stones...and words do hurt us!

Presently, I am trying to focus on FORGIVENESS, but sometimes, it's very, very hard; especially at the time. I just keep praying, 'Lord, help me forgive them like you do, OR please forgive them for me'; and then please heal and bind my hurt so that I can move on and be an overcomer in this life.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean the feelings go away or that they are not accountable for their actions dear. Don't allow people to keep hurting you without throwing a punch in a time or two ;)

Sorry, for rambling ... :D

RAMBLE ON!

....

EZMONEY, wow, you have so much love inside your heart.

EZMONEY...I think the word I was looking for...isn't really balance. ...I was trying to find a way to express...the things you all need to grasp...see..be...and ...feel... I think the word closest to those feelings...is inlightenment. ...to be inlightened by God... I want you all to have that haze, that layer of fuzziness of darkness...of emptiness...of heartack...of yearning...of failure...of anger... stripped away from your eyes.

So you all can finally ..... see.

To accually...open your eyes. And see the clearity...of truth.



I am not sure what you mean here KIDDO...I have no haze or layer of darkness....emptiness or heartache...no yearning of what the TRUTH is. I do have failure....I do have anger....but these emotions and actions do not take away the truth of Jesus Christ and what HE has done.

:hug: For that geometry class....I struggled in it in 10th grade!

THANKS GARY ~ for taking out the time to answer my ramblings. Yes, I am trying very hard to forget the past, and look foward to the future glories; and that is why we decided to go to my DH's church from now on. We are presently sending up prayers for my father as we always do ...


SnowWolf ~ All I can say is that I'm more interested in going to a church where they share GOD'S LOVE, not waste my time, pointing out my personal flaws or that of my family members ... I already know them, so get over it already! :lol:

But, I digress -- becuz we do know GOD and His lovely son, Jesus Christ, WE ARE ENLIGHTENED ALREADY! For HE IS THE LIGHT! And HE is in us; as is HIS love; and it is supposed to be in HIS churches through us ... (I have had some time to think about that one). ;)

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ... :hug:

ROSEBUD sometimes I know people think I am telling them that they have to or should go to church to know "God"...but I never say that because I don't believe it. I have been around long enough to know that church is not for everybody...so many situations go wrong. However, I really feel if we are truly seeking a church home....God will leads us there.

When I went through my divorce 20 years ago I left my church for a period of time. It was difficult for me to go there when my ex still did. But no place else felt like home to me. I came back and never left...she did! for awhile...but came back...through all of the hardships our church was our home.

I thank my Pastor for telling me, the first day in our class to become a new member, that there are many Christian churches in our area, many Christian religions in our area....our Missouri Synod Lutheran Church doesn't hold the "key" to Heaven! That come from Jesus Christ.

I also remember him telling me that if you are not hearing God's Word preached from his mouth to get out and get out fast. He encouraged us to hear the sermon and research it in the Bible...if we didn't understand something he has always been there to clarify or direct us to where we can do our own research by ourselves or with a Bible study group.

I watched my sister become a member, a youth group leader with me, become a pre-school teacher there....then leave slowly...one Sunday at a time....always some excuse.

I saw my bil become a member the slowly leave....saying as soon as God gave him enough to provide for his family he would quit working Sundays.

He just never has figured out that God always gave him enough.

I watched my brother become a member the slowly leave....after many hours of extensive Bible studies and other programs he helped me with. He does go on occasion....my sister doesn't.

I have heard the excuses why people leave a church after a service or two and after many. I just try to encourage people to give it another try.

I don't have time tonight to share some of the uncomfortable situations I felt over the years in church. Maybe later...nothing that bad!...but if I stuck with those feelings about church I would have missed a lot in life.

Prayers for all ~ Gary

I wish your church was here in Texas , the town where I live Gary! I am still looking and will be going to the Cowboy Church this weekend , need to call my friend! I went to their website and it is awesome!

SnowWolf ~ All I can say is that I'm more interested in going to a church where they share GOD'S LOVE, not waste my time, pointing out my personal flaws or that of my family members ... I already know them, so get over it already! :lol:

But, I digress -- becuz we do know GOD and His lovely son, Jesus Christ, WE ARE ENLIGHTENED ALREADY! For HE IS THE LIGHT! And HE is in us; as is HIS love; and it is supposed to be in HIS churches through us ... (I have had some time to think about that one). ;)

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ... :hug:[/QUOTE]


:) I agree, yeah I wanted to delete that post. I thought about it later and thought what the heck was I talking about? haha! I'm sorry, to be truthfull in the moment I was mad at people like that, that's why I was all fired up. :(

:) I don't know what I was trying to say, your so right! I wasn't um saying anyone wasn't enlightened...hmmm how to explain this. Please forgive me you guys I was speeking out in general and talking about no one. Does that make sense? :D

And EZMONEY, sorry- I guess I'm not explaining myself at all well. I wasn't talking about you, I'm sorry you thought I was, I was more rambling/talking to you, just thoughts. :(
gez, I don't write well, I'm not talking about you all as in you in this thread but everyone, I use that context to much. I was just trying to express how I view inlightenment...guess I didn't explain it well at all.

Yep God is enlightenment...

but I just think differently from my experience... I think of enlightenment differently.

So anyway, I'm sorry for saying the wrong things. :(

SnowWolf :hug:

You are explaining yourself fine!

We all have trouble sharing our thoughts sometimes by posting :)

You have shared yours fine!

I was not offended...and WE all speak in general terms from time to time...mostly all the time :D

We are enjoying your thoughts...

Keep them coming!

PS....how's that geometry coming ;)

SnowWolf ~ I agree with GARY -- don't be too hard on yourself; one thing I have learned for sure, is that the written word can be taken many ways. We have enjoyed sharing our thoughts and contemplations with you here.

Heck, even I thought that I sounded like I was complaining and whining too much. We had just had a bad experience recently, so that is where I was coming from. Once we had some time to remove ourselves from the situation and reflect awhile, we could see the whole matter much more clearly. Indeed, sometimes our emotions can get in the way, esp when dealing with family issues. ;)

More importantly, we are very glad that you came by, and joined this thread; so do stick around and post whenever and however you want to. :hug:

Um thank you guys, very much. I just really dislike hurting people, I still don't think I understand what situations your talking about, and I guess it came out wrong. but thank you, I think I'm alittle emotional right now, you'll have to pardon me, and going back I realized I said things that I didn't trully believe, and was trying to help *sigh* but I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, god bless, and thank you for understanding that it was a messed up post. :hug: thanks, bothering people really bothers me, expecially on accident. I'm not usually so un-articiualt in what I'm trying to say. But what's done is done, and I've learned from it.

(I'm done with my summer school, I passed. A's and B's for all quarters. Thanks. ) :)

thanks again

peace<3

SnowWolf ~ :congrat: on passing your summer school classes; that is awesome! Have a great weekend, sweetie ... :hug:

Oh ,SnowWolf, Rosebud and Gary you three make me so proud to be in this group!

BOOTSIE we are proud to have you here.

SNOW WOLF...You have done nothing wrong. Thank you for being a part of this thread! Great work at summer school. My wife finished her last class of teaching summer school today.

i was born and raised and will die a roman catholic. i think that part of the reason people don't go to church is that they make other things a priority over going to church.

The biggest problem is that, for so many people who claim to be Christians, you really don't see much evidence of it in the way they live their lives. For example, I can't count the number of times I've been cut off in traffic by someone with a fish on their tailgate. Compare that to people who aren't religious but who are good because being good is the right thing to do, without pretense or a sense that they're better than others. I've been to plenty of churches, and there are good people who go there, but so many of them seem so wrapped up in their own thing that they don't seem to want to acknowledge that there's anything "unchristianlike" going on in the church or do anything about it. Politicians or people who are prominent in the community and say they're Christian are an example of that. They say or do mean things or cheat or lie or do something that, to me, is clearly morally objectionable, and yet they're still held up as wonderful people. I just don't get that. I know the whole drill of "Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven," but sometimes it seems like people use that as an excuse to not follow the very basic commandment of love. Or maybe people just don't get what it's all about, but they're so caught up in the trappings that they don't know it. At any rate, it's hard for me respect people who claim one set of values but embrace something completely different. It doesn't make them very enticing to be around.

If going to church helps someone be a better person, then I think that's great. But this is my honest answer about why I haven't felt the need to attend church in a long time. God is everywhere, and "church" happens on a daily basis throughout life, even seeing God through those who don't share my same beliefs.

I been there UFI, !

UFI & BOOTSIE ~ oh, I know exactly what you are talking about. I have actually had businessmen steal from me and then go to church to see them there; and one was in a high position in that church. We have to remember that some people go to church for other reasons than GOD -- some go there for social status, and some go there just for business connections and networking; kind of like a social-business club.

You could ask my DH how many times I have said to him -- some of these people think it's OK to "overtly" sin all week and that they can wipe it all clean just by going to church on Sunday. JESUS hated that kind of hypocrisy, and talked about it often.

It has taken some time, but I am trying to focus more on the benefits of going to a church of my choice; and I am trying not to let the things other people say and do interfere in my chance to enjoy going to church. I have decided to go when and if I want to, or feel up to it -- for our benefit, and not just becuz others think that we should go ...

It is sad, but true that not all of us have many choices to choose from; we live in a very small town, so we are limited. My DH decided to go back to his church and I go there with him now & then when I want to. On occasion, we may 'visit' another church of my choice for variety too.

UFI ...Thank you, I always enjoy your input.

I view things different from you sometimes :) When someone cuts me off, often here in southern California, I usually don't say "hey you Christian sticker...Rainbow sticker...democrat/republican sticker....world peace sticker...free Tibet sticker....you secular Person"...I usually say "why you idiot on your cell phone person!"...arrrghhhgghhh.

A true Christian knows that the way to heaven is not by "them being good"....yet we know that we are supposed to be good because that is what Christ asks of us. Yet when a Christian does sin...others like to point out that they did and shouldn't because they are Christians.

When I ask non-Christians if they are going to heaven, most (not all) say yes...when I ask why, they say because they are a good person.

Christians shouldn't use the "I'm forgiven and not perfect" excuse for sins...but then when we do we get tired of non-Christians pointing out our sins....for example...I have been known to cuss up a storm...very loudly!!! at work when I am PO'd....when I am done it doesn't take long for one of my guys to say..."Why are you yelling at us...I thought you were a Christian"..

since when did being a Christian not allow me to yell at my guys for being idiots! Especially since...being nice didn't work for the umpteenth time!

I have many reasons why I go to my church...here is one from today...it was a prayer in our bulletin for our service...

O Almighty and most merciful God, through Your great goodness, we pray that You keep us from all things that may hurt us, so that we may be ready in both body and soul to accomplish whatever things You want done in our lives, in our Church, and in our world; through Jesus Christ, Your Son, Our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen

If I wasn't there I would not have prayed that prayer. What I want in life is what He wants from me. I feel that when I am in church...I am closer to understanding that.

I go to church for me.

I am sorry for those that come upon you as hypocrites.

Some of my best friends are Christians...some of my best friends are not.

Some of the people I dislike the most are Christians...some are not.

I view things different from you sometimes When someone cuts me off, often here in southern California, I usually don't say "hey you Christian sticker...Rainbow sticker...democrat/republican sticker....world peace sticker...free Tibet sticker....you secular Person"...I usually say "why you idiot on your cell phone person!"...arrrghhhgghhh.

I don't say "hey you rainbow sticker," unless it is something that directly is in opposition to what they have on their car, such as "respect others," because driving like a maniac isn't respecting others. To me, when a person claims to be a Christian, there's a certain expectation that they act the part. Driving in a way that could cause someone else to crash is just not a loving thing to do. Christianity, or whatever your religion, is a 24-7 thing. Sure, people mess up. But it's a lot easier to forgive mistakes when you see someone is really trying.

Aren't Christians supposed to be the light of the world? Isn't it reasonable to have a higher expectation of them because that is the path that they have chosen? I don't think it was mean to be bam, conversion, free ticket to Heaven, now resume your normal life.

I have been known to cuss up a storm...very loudly!!! at work when I am PO'd....when I am done it doesn't take long for one of my guys to say..."Why are you yelling at us...I thought you were a Christian"..

since when did being a Christian not allow me to yell at my guys for being idiots! Especially since...being nice didn't work for the umpteenth time!

Since the Bible says not to. Ephesians 4, verse 29 to the end, on through chapter 5, verse 4 ("nor should there be obscenity ...")

I don't mean to make you feel bad. I used to be a Bible studies teacher, many years ago. My point is: If you claim it, then own it. Really be responsible for your beliefs and what they mean in your life. Then, people will look at the way you act and know that there's something about you. They'll be drawn to it, as an ambassador of God to the world. At least, that's the way I believe it's supposed to work.

Oh Gary I bet when you started this thread you had know idea what a response you were going to get! Ha! Isn't it great!

In my experience , my church would not celebrate Jesus Birthday or Easter and it really bothered me because when they left church they would go home and celebrate. Had their houses decorated etc... I don't see it would hurt one bit to at least sing, Joy to the world or anything like that for Jesus Birthday but it was denied when a man asked to sing it, I just did not understand.

I was thinking about this thread and something UFI said last night. I think what matters is 'our intent' ... as a Christian (as a follower of Christ), I try my best to emulate his example; but I am still human. We must not forget that JESUS CHRIST was half human and half GOD; his biological father was the Holy Spirit, so he did have an advantage over us. We had two earthly, human, flawed parents, so our sinful nature becomes a greater stumbling block for us.

Paul talked about this -- how in his WILL (or heart's intent), he didn't want to sin, but the sinful nature of his flesh, fought him and continued to sin sometimes. We must not ever forget this fact -- ALL CHRISTIANS SIN! Only JESUS CHRIST and GOD can claim to be perfect. As the bible says, we are being transformed (all be it slowly) each day of our lives here.

Some people have a different idea of what a Christian is; so that could be part of the problem too. Some people believe that going to church makes them a Christian; but it does not. Being a good person is not enuff to make you a Christian either; that makes you a good person. You can be a good person, believe in GOD & JESUS, and be a Christian at the same time. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of JESUS CHRIST and also commits his heart and mind and body and soul and life to Him, so that He can perfect us ... but the completion of that perfection won't happen until we die.

Since UFI is a former bible teacher, she would know this is what the bible says. And yes, you are right, we are not supposed to cuss or do anything that would harm anyone else, but I have to confess that even sweet, little ole me; if I am pushed to my brink with hurt and anger, have been known to cuss on a "few" occasions in my life, which I indelibly regret. I don't mean to, but out it comes, becuz I am human ... then I am so annoyed with myself that I immediately apologize to GOD and ask for HIS forgiveness; which I know HE grants, through the grace and work of HIS son, JESUS CHRIST.

UFI ~ you are right -- it is not bam, conversion, free ticket to heaven, then go and resume your regular life. It is REPENT (meaning change your mind and change your ways), conversion = commitment, forgiven by grace when we repent, correction, then every day do the best we can to live as good as we can, and grow and improve throughout our entire lives.

Now, I have seen the other side too -- where self-righteous, judgemental people figure it's their God-given right to point out everyone else's flaws BUT not their own. I will never be perfect on this earth; I know that, and I know my flaws already and I am working on them. I have changed over my life; I am getting better, but also I know that I will make mistakes tomorrow, so I am sure glad that I can count on the grace that is available to me and everyone else who takes advantage of that free gift from the LORD.

DEAR BROTHER GARY ~ I will be prayin' about that cussin' at your workers .... :nono: ;) and I know that you will try much harder next time. :hug:

You know, that is why we need to be reminded all the time, as the bible writers said; mankind is notorious for forgetting things and needs to be reminded of our misconduct, for reproof and correction, but it takes time too. No, we are not supposed to excuse ourselves, but we do have an Advocate in JESUS CHRIST, who died for our sins (of yesterday, today, and tomorrow) to take away the guilt and shame; and who will forgive us, and help us to improve ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit, who is our teacher ...

BOOTSIE ~ the bible says that we can select a few celebrations each year of our choice. If you want to celebrate Christmas or Easter, that is quite OK. There are a few churches that choose not to celebrate in the traditional and very commercial ways, but other churches think it is just fine, or choose their own style. I would recommend that you pick a church that is more in tune with your beliefs.

So what are we saying? What is wrong with churches or what is wrong with Christians, who are the church? hmmm ... it's a little of both, I think! I found myself saying once that I thought I was cursed, and immediately, a thought came right back at me, like a boomerang -- ALL MANKIND IS CURSED! And, what is that curse? We are flawed. Not only us, but the earth and all that is in it -- it is the human condition.

So churches are flawed, becuz we are flawed; but thank GOD for His perfect Holy Spirit and His perfect Son, JESUS CHRIST, who is the head of the church. So let us march on, dear soldiers ... to the light of day, press on, press on, press on ... :hug:

PS ~ my DH just walked in and wanted to add his 2 cents to this discussion and it was a doozy. He says that people who say they don't want to go to church becuz someone said this or did that are using that as an EXCUSE not to go to church! Oh my, that is food for thought, now isn't it???:)

I don't say "hey you rainbow sticker," unless it is something that directly is in opposition to what they have on their car, such as "respect others," because driving like a maniac isn't respecting others. To me, when a person claims to be a Christian, there's a certain expectation that they act the part. Driving in a way that could cause someone else to crash is just not a loving thing to do. Christianity, or whatever your religion, is a 24-7 thing. Sure, people mess up. But it's a lot easier to forgive mistakes when you see someone is really trying.

I gave my old truck to my ex-wife...it had a JC sticker on it...her S.O. drives it from time to time...he is not a Christian...maybe the person that cut you off was borrowing the vehicle.

Aren't Christians supposed to be the light of the world? Isn't it reasonable to have a higher expectation of them because that is the path that they have chosen? I don't think it was mean to be bam, conversion, free ticket to Heaven, now resume your normal life.

But wasn't the example of bumper stickers I gave a showing of "unity - equality and love for all"....wouldn't you assume that they too would drive responsibly? I have been cut off by these people too. Are you saying it is OK for them but not for a person with a fish sticker?

I have never ever met a Christian that thought for one second that Christianity was a bam...free path to Heaven...resume your normal life. Really... have you? Since you have studied the Bible I would think that.... MATTHEW 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.".....would come to mind for those that may have said that to you.



Since the Bible says not to. Ephesians 4, verse 29 to the end, on through chapter 5, verse 4 ("nor should there be obscenity ...")

Very true. I too have my cussing and anger outbursts! But I know they are far less as my walk progresses! I would be "****" to be around at work sometimes if I hadn't become a Christian! To be honest it would be ugly...my guys are good men...but man oh man can they do the stupidest things...things that are very dangerous to others on a construction site!

I don't mean to make you feel bad. I used to be a Bible studies teacher, many years ago. My point is: If you claim it, then own it. Really be responsible for your beliefs and what they mean in your life. Then, people will look at the way you act and know that there's something about you. They'll be drawn to it, as an ambassador of God to the world. At least, that's the way I believe it's supposed to work.

Thank you...and no you don't make me feel bad at all. I appreciate your input. I do claim to be a Christian and I do own it...each and every day....sometimes I do wonderful things....and sometimes I fail. I am a work in progress :)

But wasn't the example of bumper stickers I gave a showing of "unity - equality and love for all"....wouldn't you assume that they too would drive responsibly? I have been cut off by these people too. Are you saying it is OK for them but not for a person with a fish sticker?

I have never ever met a Christian that thought for one second that Christianity was a bam...free path to Heaven...resume your normal life. Really... have you? Since you have studied the Bible I would think that.... MATTHEW 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.".....would come to mind for those that may have said that to you.

On the bumper sticker, it is wrong for everyone to drive recklessly, even if you have rude bumper sticker. But it is also additionally wrong for those who profess a certain belief to act in a way that is counter to that. Therefore, it is extra wrong for BOTH the unity sticker and the fish sticker people to drive recklessly. If someone has one of those mean little kid peeing on something stickers, then they're not violating the principles they're professing, so the only thing they're doing is being a reckless driver. People set the standards they are judged by, so to speak. If that makes sense.

I have often thought of that verse regarding people who claim to be what they're not. While people haven't told me in words that they expect they can be a Christian and continue on with their lives unchanged, they've said it in deeds. And that, to get back to your original question, is why I think some people don't go to church. They don't see any difference between Christians and nonchristians.

It crossed my mind that it may have come across that I was bragging by pointing out that I used to be a teacher, but what I meant in saying that was that might be the reason I was familiar with that verse when you might not be, so I didn't want you to feel bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

We're all works in progress, regardless of our beliefs. Some of us are just progressing in different directions. :) The goal is to have clear eyes to see where we need work and a willing heart to constantly strive. Not everyone does that.

the bible says that we can select a few celebrations each year of our choice.

? I know this is OT, and a short answer will be plenty, but I have never heard this. Where does the bible say that?

On the bumper sticker, it is wrong for everyone to drive recklessly, even if you have rude bumper sticker. But it is also additionally wrong for those who profess a certain belief to act in a way that is counter to that. Therefore, it is extra wrong for BOTH the unity sticker and the fish sticker people to drive recklessly. If someone has one of those mean little kid peeing on something stickers, then they're not violating the principles they're professing, so the only thing they're doing is being a reckless driver. People set the standards they are judged by, so to speak. If that makes sense.

Maybe I am reading you wrong but I am getting the feeling that if...me for example...tries to show others that I am a christian by professing it...going to church...wearing a cross...Jesus T-shirt or a window sticker...AND....then do anything at all against God's moral law then you consider me a hypocrit?

I have often thought of that verse regarding people who claim to be what they're not. While people haven't told me in words that they expect they can be a Christian and continue on with their lives unchanged, they've said it in deeds. And that, to get back to your original question, is why I think some people don't go to church. They don't see any difference between Christians and nonchristians.

Humm...some people don't go to church because they don't see any difference between Christians and non-christians. What is ONE THING you would like to see different between a Christian and a non-christian?...just one thing that would set them apart.

It crossed my mind that it may have come across that I was bragging by pointing out that I used to be a teacher, but what I meant in saying that was that might be the reason I was familiar with that verse when you might not be, so I didn't want you to feel bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I never felt like you were bragging and I never felt bad.

We're all works in progress, regardless of our beliefs. Some of us are just progressing in different directions. :) The goal is to have clear eyes to see where we need work and a willing heart to constantly strive. Not everyone does that.

I disagree....for some, because of their beliefs, there is no progress. My eyes are clear solely because of the person and work of my Savior. My heart is willing but my actions are human :)

JULIE ~ bible.com :D

I searched for "celebration" and found nothing.

I searched for "celebration" and found nothing.

I didn't think that the Bible gave you choices on which things to believe or celebrate? I was raised in the church, taught Bible studies myself as a younger person, lived with pastors and deacons my whole life. I don't remember anything saying you can pick whether you choose to celebrate Christmas or Easter? Actual citation please. :)

Sorry Julie, quoted the wrong person, meant that for JustWant2BeHealthy. :)

JULIE and others ~ I was speaking of "holidays" in general (citing Christmas & Easter as examples only, to Bootsie about her question); and in the bible, holidays & celebrations of the day were often referred to as "Festivals" et al ... this verse says all that is needed really -- no one has the right to judge us on what festivals we want to celebrate ...

Colossians 2:16 (Whole Chapter in context) ... and specifically ~

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a *FESTIVAL* or a new moon or a Sabbath."


Thanks for the questions, ladies ... GOD BLESS YOU BOTH!

PS -- when I find the one I was referring to, I'll pass it on too; I'll keep my eyes open for it for you.

Justwant2Bhealthy,

Thank you. TBH, from what you said I would have never thought of this verse or really paraphrased it that way. But thanks. I was just confused by what you said. I never thought of the Bible as telling me or giving me permission to choose holidays. I think that's rather different than not being judged by what holidays you observe. But YMMM. Just threw me for a loop.

Maybe I am reading you wrong but I am getting the feeling that if...me for example...tries to show others that I am a christian by professing it...going to church...wearing a cross...Jesus T-shirt or a window sticker...AND....then do anything at all against God's moral law then you consider me a hypocrit?

The Bible, such as in Matthew 6 and 23, defines hypocrites as those who portray themselves as righteous but who are not on the inside. It is not for me to say regarding you specifically. That is between you and God. How would you define it?

As far as one thing that would help someone spot a Christian, it would be someone who is clearly a follower of Christ. That sounds simplistic, but in reality it is very difficult and challenging. It isn't just one behavior, such as striving to act with wisdom or providing for those who need help or speaking with love instead of trying to stir someone else to feel bad. It's a whole and constant package of behaviors constantly compared against the measuring stick of love.

The Bible, such as in Matthew 6 and 23, defines hypocrites as those who portray themselves as righteous but who are not on the inside. It is not for me to say regarding you specifically. That is between you and God. How would you define it?

:cool: Cool...I am OK then...I do not portray myself as being righteous...I portray myself as a sinner...one in need of my Savior's forgiveness.

As far as one thing that would help someone spot a Christian, it would be someone who is clearly a follower of Christ. That sounds simplistic, but in reality it is very difficult and challenging. It isn't just one behavior, such as striving to act with wisdom or providing for those who need help or speaking with love instead of trying to stir someone else to feel bad. It's a whole and constant package of behaviors constantly compared against the measuring stick of love.

I respectfully disagree...I think the EASIEST thing in the world to do/be is a Christian! Nothing difficult at all about it....not challenging....just a matter of wanting a relationship with Christ. If the rest of your paragraph is refering to me then let me say...first ....I am wisdom challenged!....second....I may at times try to "stir" up conversation but I never want anyone to feel bad about what I say...I just try to share my message...just as many others do here in their threads. The only measuring stick I count on is Christ...and I ain't never gonna reach that one here on earth!

I think its easy to being a Christian too, just follow your heart in loving Jesus, Jesus is Amazing! We all make mistakes ,right, sometimes some real doozies right? Hey somewhere in the Bible some men asked Jesus how many times must I forgive , can anyone tell me where that passage is and what did Jesus say? I know it says that somewhere.....

BOOTSIE ~ You can find it in Matthew 18:21-22...

Here is an explanation from our synod's website ~ sorry for the length :)

Pentecost +17

"Sinning is easy, Forgiving is hard"

Genesis 50:15-21
Romans 14:5-9
Matthew 18:21-35
After hearing Jesus' method of restoring to friendship and fellowship someone who had sinned against him, Peter probably realized the implications of that restoration. As I said last week, Jesus cares about our relationships, and He wants us to be actively forgiving and loving each other. Peter knew that Jesus would have expectations of us beyond the strict interpretations of Old Testament law. If the law required forgiving three times, Peter guessed that Jesus might expect double that. He asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus probably floored him when He answered, "No, not seven times, but seventy times seven."

It is important to remember that Peter was just "plain old folks" like us. He was fully aware of how hard it is to forgive someone, even once! It has been observed that there is scarcely anything in life more difficult than this matter of asking, bestowing, and receiving forgiveness. The difficulty is not limited to the "bestowing." One of the things that keeps many people away from the Christian faith is the insistence of humans to stand on self-righteousness and reject Christ's forgiveness. Those who won't ask or receive it from Him certainly don't want it from each other.

Some translations and texts give Jesus' number as just 77 instead of 77 times seven. Either way, it is obvious that Jesus did not intend for us to keep a record of our forgiving and call a halt to it at offense number 78 or 491. It is also obvious that He linked our forgiveness from Him to the way we forgive each other. A pastor friend said, "We can stop forgiving when He does."

Jesus told a parable about a servant who owed millions of dollars to a king. He begged the king not to sell him, his wife and children into slavery, and he promised to pay back everything if the king would only be patient. The king had compassion, not just patience, and forgave him the entire debt. Shortly after that, the same man met a fellow servant who owed him a few dollars. The fellow servant begged him for patience but, unlike the king, he had neither patience nor compassion. He had the man jailed until his family would pay back the paltry debt. When the king heard about the incident, he immediately called the unforgiving rascal back in. The king was furious. He said, "You should have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you." Then the king had the man jailed until the entire debt was paid.

Here is an interesting question: where was a servant to get the kind of money the first one owed to the king? The parable implies an impossible debt -- just as our debt to God is beyond our every means. The hard words of Jesus at the close of the parable ought to make us sit up and take notice: "That is how my Father in heaven will treat every one of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." If you think forgiving is hard, try not being forgiven!

Forgiveness is never easy. People tend to overlook or ignore minor offenses -- not forgive them. Forgiveness is something else entirely. I once saw a large man at the back of an elevator smile genially when a smaller man in front of him apologized for stepping on his foot. At the next floor, more people got into the elevator, jostling the smaller fellow back and onto his neighbor's foot once more. This time the man at the back shoved the smaller one rather violently into the cluster of passengers. A woman let out a slight shriek. The smaller man and several other people got off the elevator immediately without saying a word. Those of us who remained also went to our desired floors in silence.

How many times have we heard, or said, "You have to draw the line someplace." It sounds so rational, natural, and even pious, but who says so? Who says that we are to measure offenses by either frequency or size? I can assure you that it wasn't Jesus. The parable seems to imply that the only thing that might be held against us is holding something against someone else! Two of the biggest pitfalls in human relations are that we often don't know when our words or deeds have hurt someone, and we just as often assume someone has said or done something to hurt us when they haven't at all. Either way, all we need is a little lack of communication to transform a mouse-sized misunderstanding into an elephant-sized problem.

It would be wonderful if we human beings could just learn to erase certain things from our memories. We need a "delete file" button of some kind. Lacking that, we could use some adult education about forgiveness. As little children, we confuse "getting off" or getting out of some punishment with forgiveness. We don't know the difference. We may think we "got off" because we put on our very best sad face, pleaded and begged. Consequently, we point to our behavior, not Mommy's mercy, as the reason we were not punished. That is why some adults don't know if they are "repentant enough" to receive God's forgiveness. Never think that God's forgiveness comes as a result of anything but His grace and mercy. If we think that He forgives us because we have put on the proper show of repentance, we are unbelievers -- trying to manipulate a god of our own making, by our behavior -- not trusting the steadfast love of the One True God.

Let there be no doubt that repentance has its place. In the most glaring example in all time of God's forgiveness, however, repentance came after the forgiveness. From the cross, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them; they don't know what they are doing." Was that prayer answered without any repentance from the perpetrators of the evil? Well, the hillside wasn't splattered with the blood of Roman officials and soldiers, Jewish priests, Pharisees and scribes, was it? No, only the blood of two thieves and the Son of God was shed on Golgotha!

All of mankind, not God, should have died that day. This was not a matter of someone stepping on the Father's toe in an elevator either. If we have to draw the line someplace, then humanity went over the line. But the Victim, not the murderers, got the death sentence. Take additional note that after the resurrection, Jesus still did not exact any retribution. He did not even visit Pilate, Herod, or Caiaphas to sing the children's song, "Nah, na-nah, na-nah, nah." God carries no grudges.

People carry grudges. In Robert Harling's play and movie, "Steel Magnolias," one of the characters says, "I'm not crazy -- I've just been in a bad mood for 40 years." I think I've met her. At least I've met men and women like her. They have a monkey on their backs far worse than drugs or alcohol. Unlike addiction, it is a monkey that will simply die and fall off if they just stop breathing life into it. To use another illustration, resentment is carried in a sack that would be invisible if it wasn't attached to the corners of the mouth. The more junk we throw into it, the more we frown and pout.

Did anything about Jesus' parable bother you? In addition to feeling very uncomfortable about having my forgiveness apparently depend on my forgiving, something bothered me. Didn't the king forgive the servant's debt of the millions? How could he just reinstate it when the man refused to forgive the fellow servant? I thought forgiveness meant forgotten-forever! It does.

One of the most difficult aspects of sharing the Gospel, whether across a backyard fence or across cultures, is that people prefer recognition to forgiveness. We trust our own accomplishments more than we trust God's grace. We want to pay our debts, not have them forgiven. We want to do enough good stuff that it outweighs the bad stuff. We want to deserve God's blessings and, arrogant as it might be, we think we can.

The issue in the parable is the same as in life -- just because God forgives does not mean we want the forgiveness. I believe that the first servant could not have experienced such profound forgiveness and remained unforgiving. He left the king, thinking that the king had done just as he had asked -- that the king would wait for him to pay the debt because he was "good for it." He was such a "good person" that the king could count on him to repay. The unbelievable arrogance of that is that the debt was too huge for him to ever repay.

The first servant apparently decided that his fellow servant was not a "good person." The fellow servant had to be jailed. The first one refused to be forgiven. Naturally, he refused to forgive. Maybe frowns and pouts come from two sacks, one on each corner of the mouth -- one filled with self-righteousness, the other with resentments. Both can be left at the foot of the cross. Jesus doesn't say it this time, but I will: "Those who have ears should listen."

Thank You so much Gary, I feel Jesus is smiling down at you today! I read every word and I took it too heart, thank you.
I do have to share this with you. last week I asked a question on here and I received the next day on God's Promises an answer to it! I find this strange but... Last night or early in this morning hours I asked this question and I receive Jesus sayings each morning and guess what i read from Jesus saying's this morning, I got so excited to share with you I forgot to read God's promise's this morning; This is what I received:

Luke 17:1-10
1) And he said to his disciples, " Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! 2) It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. 3) Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4) and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, `I repent,' you must forgive him. "
5) The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" 6) And the Lord said, "font color="#CC0000"> If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamore tree, `Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. 7) " Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come at once and sit down at table'? 8) Will he not rather say to him, `Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? 9) Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10) So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty

I go to church and even teach Sunday School (my children range in age from 3 to 14) and I love it. Although the Bible says that where two or more are gathered in my name I shall be among them, it's important to be in a church setting because it allows you to grow and be among others who share the love of the Lord. I do think that alot of churches today are suffering. So many are closing their doors due to low attendance and/or financial problems. I think that alot of the problem is because so many "christians" are caught up in the world and are turning their backs on what the Bible teaches. Another thing is that there are alot of preachers who won't preach on things that in today's world they should - like the Second Coming of Christ - which I LOVE prophecy teachings. Preachers seem to be more concerned with stepping on a few toes than preaching the gospel. I love my church and everyone it. I believe in the Rapture and I believe that we are on the threshold of his return. Amen and Amen!

I would also like to add that I have been in churches where there has been things go on that wasn't very christian like. For me, the bottom line is that I don't get involved in things that have nothing to do with. Why would I allow a tiff between a few people that suddenly the church is abuzz about bother me - it has nothing to do with me. I go to church for me and to be closer with God - I'm not there for anyone else. You don't have to go to church to have a relationship with God. Remember: it's not a religion, it's a relationship!

I used to go to church all the time as I was raised Evangelical.. These days I am very cynical, but can't entirely put my finger on why. Perhaps partially because my father was extremely "religious" about making us go to church. He'd say things about people like, "If a person doesn't go to church, there's the question if they're really saved." He'd also get irate at people on the golf course on the way to church and say they were stupid for 'worshiping' golf on Sunday mornings. :lol: He made it very miserable for all of us kids (my mother rarely went) and we had to go 2x a week even when we were sick. That's most of what I remember.. just going to early service every week just to earn some imaginary badge.. Then going home yelling at people for being such stupid idiots. I guess that explains where a lot of my cynicism comes from..!

These days I have other reasons why I wouldn't go. First, I'm not Christian so there wouldn't be a point.. :lol3: But there's also this thing I was taught so much as a child about how our faith needs bolstering by others of the same faith. That just seems irrational and based on fear to me now. If you need others to keep you believing, is it really something you want to believe? I don't know.. Another thing that seriously hinders me is all the patriarchal language I hear in Christian churches. :halfempty I understand it's a theological difference, but I'm really shocked these days every time I hear a male pronoun used referring to god. I'm just not used to it at all. (Again, I've heard all the apologetics, so I don't want to get an earful!) I think I would like to visit a Unitarian congregation someday though, to see what it's like.. I still don't want to fall into needing others to keep me believing things that I may naturally grow out of on my own. I guess that's just my fear.

Hi FRIGG

A couple of things I can tell you for a fact...

#1 My kids and nephew where in Minnesota 2 weeks ago for a family reunion with my ex-wife (New Ulm to Minneapolis)

#2 My (NAVY) nephew is there at this very moment...as he called me 15 minutes ago to say he made it safe to his girlfriend's house...

#3 You have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It isn't about ANYONE else....just you and Him.

#4 Sometimes I go for walks on Sunday with my wife and mutts...we usually have gone to church Saturday night when that happens....I go to church because I have been blessed with the wonderful opportunity to do so....it isn't always on Sunday morning though.

Thanks for stopping by!

I wouldn't say that I think anything is "wrong" with churches, but with some of the people who end up there. Since it's a little difficult to explain, I will just share my experience.
I've grown up in church... My family and I went to one from when I was about 5 or 6 until I was a sophomore in high school. Just before I got to high school, my parents began having marital problems. They weren't taking the easy way out (divorce) and instead went to counseling to work things out. They chose to get Christian counseling from one of the church pastors who had known our family a long time. Long story short, although he promised secrecy of these issues, somehow other pastors knew what was going on. It just so happens I went to school with one of their children. Next thing I knew, words were being said at my school, by this boy of very personal information about my family and parents. Shortly thereafter, we stopped going. Unfortunately it ended up we stopped altogether. During my senior year of high school, my parents split. I chose to repair my idea of church and what confidence means and went to a Christian college. The church on campus was AMAZING and helped me find my way back to faith. Now my husband and I are blessed to have found a wonderful church where we live that we really love. I am glad we've gone down the right path, but I hate to think of those others who saw the corruption in the church that I spent most of my growing up in. It's sad, really and I wish I knew who those people were so I could reach out and let them know that not every church is like that. However, I know there will be some people we won't reach. I just wish the pastors realized what they were really doing back then...

frigg -just saw your post. You mentioned unitarian... Have you by chance gone to a non-denominational church? I go to one and I love it. I went to Harvest (evangelical - the one who puts on the Harvest Crusades) and it just didn't fit for me. My college church was an Assemblies of God church, if you've been to one of those. Oh and if it were closer (it's an hour and half away with Sunday morning service at 7am) my husband's and my favorite church is a Congregational church. Just thought I'd mention...

Thank you for your post STARGZR...

if you were more "south" towards North San Diego County you could visit my church!

We just started a new church that seems to have a wonderful mixture of people. We've usually turned away from churches because either they weren't diverse or it was more abot what you wore and what you had.

I hope your new church is a blessing for you BLISS!

My cousin, who just celebrated his 50th wedding anniversary a few days ago (yours truly :) me :) was his ring bearer 50 years ago! at the age of 5) has some interesting views on church., and he has passed these down to his children...who are in their 40's and not little kids.

Anyway, one thing he says is ...."All churches want is your money"....


One thing in my experience to always be true is that when I tithe, God gives it back. I never want for anything. Now, I am most certainly not saying I live in any kind of luxury, but I'm very very much content with what I have. (which is more than can be said for lots of people I know who have multiple vacation houses, $60,000 cars and wear $400 shoes...)Yanoo, sometimes 10% of our income can be a huge amount of money when you're thinking of giving it away--especially when you're living paycheck to paycheck. I firmly believe that when one gives back to God with a good heart, it's given back. Just my experience.

WOW, excellent thread, Gary!! :D

I was raised Catholic. My mother was (and is) a woman who I perceived to be very religious. I went to Catholic elementary school, Sunday school, and when I was 14, I got confirmed. I got the highest score on the confirmation exam, too, thanks to my upbringing; I didn't have to study because my mother never missed a chance to teach me all about the catechism of the Catholic church!

I did not take my faith seriously, at all. I would try to fall asleep during the homily and end up staring at the nearest attractive person's rear end. I thought religion was a joke and tried to back out of going to church as much as I could. I knew that as soon as I moved out of my parents' house, I would never go to church again. Heck, I had a band once (well, more than once, but yeeeeah...) and wrote a song called "We're Not Going to Church" which was about sex in church! I'd post the lyrics, but they were FAR too explicit for ANY part of this site :lol:

Why did I feel this way? Well, for one, the church was always on such a moral crusade yet the pastor at the time took a mysterious leave of absense. Later, it was discovered that he was doing couples' counseling, had an affair with the wife, and ran away to Georgia with her after knocking her up. Several other priests in the diocese got exposed for having homosexual sex, while others molested children, others had huge porn collections, others were stealing from the church's collection, and others were making sexual advances towards unexpecting women. I thought it was so hypocritical that these so-called leaders in Christ's image were preaching against all these things yet doing them behind our backs.

The congregation of the church I grew up in was full of snobby, judgmental people. I was afraid to be myself or talk about my life because I was scared they would shun me, tell me I was a big sinner just for letting one little word slip out, or inform me they believed I was doomed to roast in the fires of Gehenna. This holier-than-thou pretention made me want to vomit... and likewise caused me to believe religion must not be for me.

I felt faith contradicted science, too. It is much easier to use "logic-based" arguments than it is to use faith-based ones, unless you have VERY deep knowledge of your faith. At the time, I did not; I was a "realistic" person, so of course, I didn't believe in "that crap." I thought "something" was out there; I just didn't know what. However, science had its loop holes. NO philosopher, scientist, or profound athiest was ever able to explain HOW the world got created. Big Bang Theory? PLEASE. If there WAS a big bang, where did it come from? I believe science and Genesis mesh together quite nicely if you read it carefully; the time span of seven days is a matter of perspective -- DAYS could be millions of years by our current standards.

If I were to go into the details of my spiritual journey, I would be capable of typing a novella. The best way I can sum it up is that I had a change of heart. If I was going through a really tough time -- usually a struggle or scare with my health or a moment of being VERY broke -- I would ask God to help me. If someone I loved was going through something tragic, I would pray for that person. If life was going extraordinarily WELL, I would thank God, too, BUT during my every day, normal life, I never thought of Him and I still believed "God" was just... "something out there."

...fast forward to November 2008: I knew I was going to end my 3.5 year relationship. I was miserable. I didn't ask God to help me end it, though once I DID break it off, I asked God to help me cope. I started praying all the time. I remember going on this really long bike ride in nature where my cell phone lost reception and the only things around were trees, skies, and wide open spaces. I gave God all my cerebral diarrhea and God gave me a feeling of peace. I felt that whatever I was going through would pass. A couple days later, I went to church for the first time in almost five years. I went to a church called St. Augustine, which I passed so many times on my way to other things. Before attending, I didn't know if church would be "for me" or if I was going to make a habit of going; I just decided to give it a try.

And it was beautiful. For the first time, I GOT IT. I paid attention, participated, and thanked God for giving me the change of heart to DO IT. I continued going, registered, started reading, studying, and understanding the Bible, spoke with several religious leaders about the questions I had regarding my faith, became familiar in a way which I could become an apologist and teach others, then answered an ad in the bulletin to be a volunteer with the youth ministry. After all I'd been through, I had quite a story which I was eager to share! I still volunteer with the youth ministry and have done so much -- I'm actually one of the people largely in charge of the whole thing now! :)

On top of that, I went to several retreats and became unashamed to give God ALL of me. I felt like it made me a lunatic at first to allow God to speak to me (NOT in the "hearing voices" sense -- it's an instinct one picks up on when he or she is receptive to the Lord), but I slowly let it happen. Now, I let the Lord give me guidance on life, which has helped me tremendously. I allow God to help me cope. I fully embrace Him and all He has done for me. Going to church is one way I can celebrate my faith -- one of the most important -- and church activities are another.

Getting involved with this particular church is one of the best things I've ever done for myself.I go to church because Christ's divine presence is there in such a special way... AND I go for the fellowship... I am a very social person, so it is essential for me to be around those who also value their faith! I am thankful every day that I found a DIVERSE church with interesting, open-minded people -- if I didn't, I'm sure I would still be faithless.

Thank you for sharing your post SHANE on how you decided to get past the sins of humans and get to the Word of Christ, with God's help.

I have seen too many times how people have used those same reasons to not go to church.....thus never being able to see what God's Word says to them.

I pray you have many more blessings in your quest to lead those youth!

Oh Shane, thank you so much for sharing your story. There is a new church that has started up in our community, maybe it's for me. Wouldn't hurt to check it out!

This is a truly fantastic thread, I personally have had a long journey with the church.
I am from Northern Ireland, which is divided by church's, if you are a protestant or catholic( in NI all religions are broken down into 2 groups catholic and protestant, if you choose to say you are neither on equal opportunity forms, then the school you went to or the area you live is used to decide what religion you are!), despite the peace the divisions are very real and there is still voilence

I have grown up hearing stories of how church's hid murderers and seeing minsters refuse to condemn the deaths off innocents because they were soldiers/police etc. How Church's were used to plan terrorist attacks that killed and destroyed our country. I have been spat at by "men off the cloth" because off my religion.

There is a real lack off true Christan's, oh EVERYONE goes too church because thats what has always been done, but they go for reasons that are far removed from Christ.
Despite this my parents brought me up to understand that my relationship with God was one that was separate to the physical church. The church could be my family but as with all families sometimes we would lose our way, and thats when we should look to Christ to help us. Never to put my faith in the church ONLY in God.

..... parents brought me up to understand that my relationship with God was one that was separate to the physical church. The church could be my family but as with all families sometimes we would lose our way, and thats when we should look to Christ to help us. Never to put my faith in the church ONLY in God.

Very wise parents! Great words of wisdom KboP :)

I find it very interesting, and perhaps fortuitous, that I found this thread.

I have recently been contemplating trying church again. The contemplation has been long, tedious, and emotional for me. In order for you to understand this, you must have some of my background, so please bear with me.

I grew up with a mother who tried very hard to raise us to believe in God and Jesus. We went to church peiodically. As time went on we went less and less. These decisions to attend or not were led mostly by my mother. In my adult years I came to find out that she had suffered a crisis of faith and felt very much like she was pretending and therefore lived with a lot of guilt.

Eventually we were going on holidays only. My Sunday School experience was limited and spotty. In my teen years I felt a NEED to be involved in a church. I tried many many churches. None seemed to fit. I settled in at a church that one of my friends went to, but I was uncomfortable with what I like to refer to as public displays of religion.

I've always prayed. But it was my relationship with God and Jesus not to be encroached upon by the eyes and ears of others. I found seeing other people publicly let go emotionally while providing testimony to be uncomfortable for me. I certainly couldn't do it myself. It was too personal.

I also found it distasteful to ask people to create legislation on a city, state, or national level that made Christian based morality legal while making what I saw as personal choices illegal.

I couldn't do it anymore. Combine that with the hipocricy that others have mentioned, and the judgmental nature of many that I encountered, and I found myself judging my fellow Christians and I didn't like the angst that it created in me.

Flash forward 15 years (oh my word--has it been that long???). I am in a place of contentment with my life. My husband and I are just around the corner from trying for a child. And this makes me come back to that NEED that I felt as a teenager. This time it's not so much a need to belong to a church, but to have a greater spiritual life. I doubt I'll ever be one to be completely comfortable with those PDRs, but I don't want my child to grow up in a spiritual vaccuum. I want my child to understand belief and faith. And I want to raise him/her in a community of people who find faith and belief to be a positive thing.

The thing is that I'm like a woman who has had bad relationships--I'm gun shy. I don't know how to find a church that I will feel comfortable in, and I don't know how to make the transition myself.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Eumie, like people Churches have their faults and their good points, I have come to the conclusion; that I should find a church and if I find it not all cut out to be what I feel it should be, love it anyway, because that is the way Jesus loves us,un-conditional. The real reason we are there anyway is him not the people. We make mistakes after mistakes and he forgives us and loves us anyway, what an awesome love he has for us all.

I learned a lesson today, have faith in Jesus, help those in need, and stop pointing my finger and do my part in changing things to the good . That is what I am aiming on doing , there is a new church here and I am thinking about trying it out, also there is one down the road, they stay to them self but I think they have a web site going to check them out , would be nice to be able to walk to church!

Emuie I don't know if I helped you out but you have helped me out, thank you, and may Jesus show favor upon you, will be praying for you and your husband and little baby to be. My daughter just had her 5th child , baby girl, children are the most precious gift from Jesus.

Eumie, when I think of finding a church again, I find myself much more attracted to and comfortable with a more liturgical style (I was thinking Episcopal) for all the reasons you said.

I actually believe in the Unitarian Universalist way more than any other. The churches in my areas however aren't very "family" oriented it seems--more couples and singles. The idealogy of them can be quite confusing to a child which is why we don't go. My kids do go to church camp though and a Methodist church on Easter and Christmas. That's gotta count for something.

I am not directing my thoughts here to anyone personal, I just feel like saying a few things that may or may not help some of you :)

Having a relationship with God is not something we have to do. It is not something we need to have. It is not something you can give to anyone else. It is not something you can take away from anyone else.

It isn't something you can earn. It isn't something you can "get" for your kids. It isn't something you can "give" to loved ones that have passed.

People each and every day are born and die on this earth without having known their Creator. It happens every single day of our lives.

If you want a relationship with God, He is there for you. He tells us in His Word that if you seek Him you will find Him. It isn't difficult.

If you are still looking for a "sign"... He already sent the sign! His Son!

There are many Christian religions out there. There are many wonderful churches out there in many different religions. With many wonderful people.

Yes, there are jerks out there.....there are rotten people in rotten churches.

HE gives us the "truth" and the freedom to seek Him. Our countries are free countries :carrot: We have the freedom to attend the church of our choice, if the church we are going to is not about the "truth" we can leave and find another.

If you are looking for a church that is going to fill all your needs as you give nothing back then I am sorry to say you may not ever find it.

However....

If you are looking to find "truth"...if you are looking and seeking a relationship with your Savior you will find it.

If you look and seek, you will find a church that preaches and teaches the "TRUTH" of Christ from the pulpit. If you seek a church that preaches from the Bible and no other book, you will find it.

If you are looking for a church that does the above and allows you to join/start a youth group ~ a toddler group ~ a Bible study ~ a weight loss program ~ a cooking club ~ a singles group ~ a senior group ~ a walking club ~ a Monday Night Football group ~ a holiday bazaar group ~ a senior/youth ministry.....then you will find it....if you really want to.

I look at going to church as a wonderful opportunity, a blessing. I look up at the stained glass windows and Jesus on the cross every week and pray that He brings me back the next week. The more I give, the more work I do, the more I attend, the more I participate....the greater the gift I receive here on earth.

I am blessed...but the blessing I have is for anyone that wants it :)

I guess my only problem with your post EZ is "Christ." One way for some--but many paths to the same IMO. IMO and experience, I do not need to go through Christ or Mary or any other to access GOD. He is in me. I know it.

I have a relationship with God and Jesus all on my own. It doesn't require a church for that to happen.

Perhaps I sounded as if I was looking for something that fits my needs without giving anything back, but that is far from the truth. And if that was any reflection on my discomfort with public emotional displays of religion--I give that all to Him and feel no guilt in not giving that raw emotion over to others to evaluate.

I do feel, however, that a path towards spirituality, and a path towards God and Jesus ARE things you can "give" your child.

I was actually looking for some helpful advice on how to start my process of seeking out a place of worship where I belong.

Thank you, Bootsie, Julie, and TBG. I appreciate your help.

Bootsie, I agree with you that we must love as Christ loves us. I find it hard to do so when I am in a church or amidst Christians who do not do so in all cases, even (and especially) the difficult ones. But most of all, there is a general sense of me not being good fit for that particular church, rather than the other way around.

EZ--I think you are very blessed to find these answers to be so easy and self-evident. I wish that I felt as home in any of the churches I have worshiped in as you do in yours. It does not come so easily for some of us, and as we know from many different endeavors in life (including weight loss), wanting it badly enough doesn't always equate in finding or achieving it.

Thank-you THIGHS BE GONE :)

You are so right, there are many paths. My journey goes through Christ, and no one else, to God. However, that is my personal journey, as you have noted and I totally respect you and your choice for the journey you take.

Although I got side tracked, as usual ;) the main point I was trying to make in my previous post was....

the church is the people in it.

We are fortunate in our church to be able to try new things...new interests.

I thought, in this economy, there might be a need for a magazine exchange....bring one or two and trade with someone....well I was wrong :D I ended up bringing tons of magazines home....I was able to give some to a nursing home.

Angie wanted to start a yoga ministry. She took the classes last year, spent many-many hours training and got her "degree"...she prepared to teach it with a Christian perspective with devotions, etc. And went and "sold" it to Pastor and the Board...it was an easy sell ;)

A good friend of ours started a mommy and me group.

I have had great success and fun with pizza/bowling nights....chili cook-offs...whale watching trips...etc that myself and Angie have organized with our Christian Life Board.

I understand not everyone can do everything but I encourage you all to take a second look at "whatever it is" that is in or not in the church that you think you want to attend....and see what you can do to about it.

I have tried many things over the years at my church...some have been big flops (like taking the youth group to the snow for the week-end....and having NO SNOW :D)...others have been a big success.

I hope all of you find what you are looking for....but please don't wait for it to come to you....

If I had done that, I would be at home Sunday mornings sleeping in and watching CBS Sunday Morning....I would have missed out on a lot of "stuff" :)

Besides....I can DVR Sunday Morning!!!

EUMIE ~ HI!

I have to go for a bit but I will respond to your post later this morning...

have a great day.

I'm Anglican (Episcopal if you're an American).

The church I go to now is very welcoming and inclusive of all ages, families or singles, gays, all races, etc.) and I feel like part of a family there. I must say that was not the case in some other churches I've been to, so if you aren't happy where you are I do encourage trying another one.

When we do Confirmation classes, the candidates are encouraged to visit other denominations (Catholic, Evangelical, Baptist, etc.) and even mosques and synagogues, so that they are sure that Christianity and the Anglican church in particular are the right path for them.

I'm not sure 14 years of age is the right time for that kind of experimentation because the parents don't always support it, but I do think it's a good thing for college age people or older to do.

Hi Tiggy Cat! :welcome:So glad you made it to the faith group, your church sounds like a great one. Come join us in the Christian Encouragers-September in the Faith Group , want to show you my new granddaughter Johnie!

EUMIE I wanted to get back to you. I didn't want you to think that my post was directed at you specifically because it wasn't. It was mostly in general, but on conversations I had during the week with some people.

I suggest looking around your area for a church you think you may want to attend, you seem to have, at least, a basic background in your faith.

I would go online to all their websites and look for their beliefs and practices. You can also see what activities they have on going...if they have a current website.

I won't take time to go into it tonight but, although my issue wasn't weight, I had a difficult time going to church as an adult....but that's another story :)

Take care, Gary

I have a problem, though. For one thing, I stayed out of Church for a long time because of personal issues with Churches in general.
I want to go, I want a good experience, but somehow, I feel disappointed. I am a Born Again Christian, and I live in the Bible Belt, lots of "good" Churches, reputable...you know... but good for me and my family? I finally found one that I really liked and wanted to become a part of, when I joined the prayer team, I was appalled at the things these people were agreeing in prayer over. It was terrible...and wrong. Well, eventually, due to the pastor's indiscretions, the Church was turned over to someone else and I didn't go back to Church for a very long time.
In the last month or so, I have been attending a very reputable Church, the Pastor is faithful...and they are really doing great things for a lot of people. They are very focused on their youth, the problem I have is this:
I don't like for my children to be hit in the face by other children...and have him crying (my son is 4) and they not let me know. He told me when we got home. I don't want my child to have to fight at Church. I want him safe and secure in Church. It is supposed to be a safe place. Then my daughter, who is 16, was out in the rain with her group, having a "slop fight".... basically this was a major food fight with buckets of slop. She was wet and standing in the rain barefoot and dirty when we picked her up. I was appalled. I don't think this is appropriate behavior or activity for Church. When we went to Church, she had showered, done her hair and make up, had on a nice skirt and sandals... When I picked her up, I almost cried at the way she looked and smelled, never mind our shopping trip after Church...we didn't make it, and I almost vomitted from the smell from the back seat, to which she stated may be the "pickles".
We don't have our own washer and dryer, we need to go to the laundry mat, so her Church clothes went into a plastic bag, so I can go do her laundry again, and have to spend extra money that we don't really have to wash HER clothes.
I'm disappointed and sad. I want to know my kids are safe at Church and doing nice fun things. I don't want to sit through Church worrying about them the whole time.
I go to Church, maybe not because I really want to, but I know the importance of fellowshipping with the flock. I want to do what God wants me to do. I want to be obedient, but this is kind of the reason I don't like Church.

RYANNE I am sorry for your children's experiences.

I wasn't going to respond as I, not being close to the situation, might say something to offend you and I don't want that.

Seriously, I have thought about this post for days and thought I would share some experiences I had

When my children were in 2nd and 4th grade, at our church school, I had knee surgery. I was off work for a year. Being able to get along after a few months, but not released back to construction, I was able to help out at school. One day I got a call at home, seems the school had a field trip...all grades...and some of the children had to stay back for various reasons....well the person that was supposed to watch these kids was not available for some reason...don't recall...many years ago...anyway I was called and asked to "babysit"....now I had kids of all ages...K-8th...it seemed like every time I turned my back to look one way some kid was smacking the other...

this was not the last time I helped out in the school, day care or nursery...it happened more than once...and I am sure you know kids will wallop on each other...especially the little ones...

but to be honest, since that happens, in less there was injury or it kept happening....I didn't mention it to the parents....I just figured it was "life"

I have also had the experience of youth group directors not making maybe the smartest decisions...most are young themselves. I don't know but maybe what your daughter went through a poor decision from a young director or maybe a game gone bad?

My son had a kid sitting behind him in class that kept smacking him... the other child had issues...still does today, 19 years later...we always had problems with this child in youth group situations...his parents were aware and came to most activities to help out and keep watch. Anyway, my son had known this boy for several years, was the one that (as the boy said) tried to be a friend...anyway for some reason the kid wouldn't stop hitting my son in the back no matter what my son said. He told his teacher who scolded the boy but nothing changed. I told my son the next time he does it get up and move to another seat....if your teacher asks why then tell her...if there is an issue I will come to school. The boy hit my son...my son moved his seat...teacher asked why...son told her...he stayed there rest of the year. Sometimes things work out....sometimes they don't.

I taught 4th Sunday School for several years. The son of one of my best buddies from church was in one of the classes. He just pushed and pushed...nothing I could do would get him to stop causing trouble, I talked to his parents about it...after more weeks of disrupting my class I finally had enough and took him...and the entire class...up to the adult Bible study...dropped him off with his parents. From then on he was the most well behaved kid in class...he was so embarrassed...and I am sure his mom and dad were too! I had had enough...the kid and his parents are still good friends today...15 years later.

I hope you take the opportunity to get back to a church and find one you enjoy.

There is so much bad stuff out there....

I was fortunate enough to have a great place for my kids to go to school and youth group. My kids came from a divorced home from the time they were 6 and 8 yrs. old. It was not always easy going back and forth even though they saw me almost every single day. I was a very involved parent...very. I also was not afraid to allow them to go to public high school ...both of their wishes. They did very well in school and sports...there and college. I know a lot of their success has been from THEM...and a little from me, their mom and Angie...but I know...

and I know it deep in my heart...their experiences in church and church school were the most important factors in their lives...

not a perfect school...not a perfect church...not perfect parents...

but if you put yourself in a place for good things to happen ...they will...

Prayers you find that place ~ Gary

I know you are right. My husband and I talked it over and we will stay there until God moves us somewhere else, which we are praying about. I know kids will be kids, it just hurts when you know your child was crying for you and the workers don't let you know. We do have a system for that, in which they just flash your child's # on the screen....but looking back, they are probably used to it for that age group.
I have thought the same thing, the Pastor's son is the leader of the very large youth group, and ya, maybe it wasn't the best decision because he is young, and maybe they did have fun... however, sometimes they don't think things through at that age.
I was very upset, but after praying about it, I am only thankful no one got hurt or sick. My son will have to face these issues in school, so in the meantime, I told him I was proud that he didn't hit the child back, although he did say he pushed the other child after being hit in the face.
He did tell the worker, who did set the other child in time out. So, I apologize for over reacting, it took me a few days to see this.
I appreciate your response to my dilemma. Like I said, we will continue to worship there, and if and when God moves us, we will move. The kids do like the Church and they do have fun, usually.
Like you said, no perfect Church, no perfect parents...etc... ya, you're right.
Hugs! :hug:

RYANNE ~ Thanks for seeing I was trying to be helpful.

My daughter, as a teen-ager 13-16, used to babysit in the nursery at the Sunday School hour and second service. I usually go to first service. Anyway I would check in to see if her helper had shown up...sometimes not, if she needed another set of eyes I would stay and help. It didn't happen all the time but sometimes the little ones wanted mommy of course. Because we know the parents dropped the kids off so they could attend church and Sunday School w/o them we really tried hard to turn the kid around. We do have a cry room in our sanctuary where parents can see everything but they are in room where the people in the sanctuary can't see them (unless they turn around) or hear them...kids are also always welcomed in church itself but some place them in the nursery and others prefer the cry room.

My wife is a school teacher, for a couple of years they asked her and my teen-age daughter if they would run the Summer Day School...mostly fun field trips...for $$$ of course. This was at a time when my daughter was saving $$$ for college expenses so they jumped at it. Well, one day the trip was to the beach. A note was sent home for parents to sunscreen the kids...my wife would re-coat the kids....anyway they asked every kid and every kid said yes, they were sunscreened....well one kid wasn't...he got a bad sunburn! I was livid when I found out...more so than the mom (also a family friend)...anyway...another example of something going wrong unintentionally. The kid went on to be a star... for a day... the Jay Leno Show...so all is well.

Be hopeful ~ Gary

My parents took me to a baptist church while I was growing up. When I got older, I would hear the pastor say things like: "Those who don't attend this church will burn." I would look around and see none of my school friends, no one else from my family except my parents....I would think quietly to myself: "So everyone else I know is going to ****? Just because they don't go to this church?" I eventually got pretty sick in my stomach and just stopped going all together. I haven't been to church since. I married my hubby who isn't a believer and I just kinda went along with him.

I stopped believing for a while...Just got caught up in life and avoided any thought that leaned that way. My biggest confusion was: What about the people who were generally good. Never murdered, never cheated on their significant other, never raped or stolen anything...would they go to **** just because they didn't believe in God? My DH is a good man and I just can't see him burning because of his belief that the big bang created us all and there really is no god.

One day I just panicked. The thought of dying and there being NOTHING afterwards scared me too much. I remembered how comforted I was in believing that there was a heaven, and all the people I've lost over the years were there watching over me. Just being able to talk to God throughout my day....I missed it.

To this day I still don't really know what I believe. I did start talking to him again, I've found comfort in that even though I feel like a hypocrite for talking to him when I'm not even sure he exists. I guess what is holding me back is the fact that I'm a pretty laid back person...live and let live. If you are gay, that's your choice. If you go to this church instead of that church, that is fine. The only things that I really do feel are wrong are Murder or adultery I mean like really BAD things.

Sorry if these ramblings aren't making any sense. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm just confused about what I believe right now, and I'm trying to find clarity. I hope I haven't stirred anything up. I feel like such an outsider posting here...:o

Eve-I am soooooo with you!!!!!

I did start talking to him again, I've found comfort in that even though I feel like a hypocrite for talking to him when I'm not even sure he exists.

Comfort, one of the Names of the Holy Spirit is the Comforter. If God didn't exist, then if you talked to Him, there would be nothing, instead you have found "Comfort". :hug:
Do what you feel in your heart is right. You'll be okay. There is no perfect Church, just like there is no perfect person. The Bible says that Jesus is the Door. I used to go to a Catholic Church and some of the things I heard weren't right, either. I'm sorry that you went through that.
And what you said about live and let live, well, you are right, we love the sinner, we hate the sin. People are very very important! :hug::)

I've been a member of a mainstream church (elder religion) and of a cult. In each, I found a package deal mindset- take all or nothing and do what you're told- that I found to just not work.

I do not believe there's any religion that gets it all right or all wrong. So I do my own thing.

Thank you, Ryanne. Very wise words. :hug:

:hug:

Interesting thread. Every time I move and need to look for a church it's a struggle... why? There have been some churches I don't feel comfortable in, and I can't entirely pinpoint the reason.

One thing, a church can have the most wonderful pastor, but if they can't give a great sermon, it's hard for me to sit through the service. Also I really like smaller congregations - though they do have some drawbacks. The church I found where I am living now is great - but there aren't many people my age (none who come to early service like I do!) and we don't have a choir. But I don't think there's anything wrong with larger churches, just a personal preference. =)

..... "Those who don't attend this church will burn." ..................................


Sorry if these ramblings aren't making any sense. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm just confused about what I believe right now, and I'm trying to find clarity. I hope I haven't stirred anything up. I feel like such an outsider posting here...:o

EveLHaelf ~ Welcome :hug: There is no such thing as an outsider here! The purpose of this thread is to share our beliefs and thoughts and in doing so help each other that may have had some bad experiences in church.

I am one of the fortunate that hasn't had any "major" problems with my church, one I have attended for over 25 years.

And I do understand that sometimes it is difficult for some to go or even go back...I just hope some can find strength from sharing here to take that chance.

I am sorry you heard that those that don't go to that church will burn in ****....what a horrible thing for a minister to say....and absolutely not in the Bible!

I pass by several Christ centered churches, that are not my denomination, on my way to church....I believe all the believers attending there will be in Heaven.....and all believers in Christ's work, wether they are in church or not.

In our church we focus on the person and work of Christ and His love for us. There are never any threats of going to ****. By learning of His love and what He did for us there is no reason to worry about going to ****....we become believers and the Holy Spirit enters us...

the worries of **** and Satan are no longer a concern for us...there is no power there over us....

I hope you continue in your prayers and ask and seek guidance to your questions. I also encourage you to pick up a Bible and look over God's Word for yourself....listening to what He says to us.

Prayers for you and your husband ~ Gary

IRIS ~ I have been blessed with a Pastor that for over 25 years has never had a bad sermon as far as I am concerned. However, we have had some vicars that were tough to sit through....and some Pastors that have filled in over the years for various reasons. Our congregation also has over 10 retired Pastors, some have spoke and were enjoyable and others a bit more difficult.

When Angie and I travel we always try to find a Missouri Synod Lutheran church that we can visit...but if not we will go to any church that we feel is Christ centered for a visit.

I have seen many things I wish we had and have seen many churches that would love our place.

My church has always felt like the perfect fit for me...Angie too when she came with me to a concert on one of our first dates....she never went back to hers.

I know I am lucky. I also left it for a while when my ex left me...I felt so bad inside...and although I never once blamed it on the church or God...in fact my friends and Pastor at church more than comforted me...but it didn't feel right...it was very difficult for me to go to church and have my ex sit on the other side with my kids on "her day"....

It felt like crap...but it wasn't the church...it was me! everything I needed for healing was there...I just didn't feel it. As I searched other churches to go to nothing felt right there either....I finally decided that my church is where I wanted to go and that was it! I would deal with it...I had no good reason to leave...I went back and found "home" again quickly....

I guess what I was trying to say in this long drawn out post was...

keep looking kiddo...you will find that "HOME"...I know you will...praying for that!

Thanks, Gary!

I do have a bible but I haven't picked it up in a while. I'm going to start reading through it and come to my own conclusions instead of letting a mis-led pastor give me a bunch of scare tactics.

And if something confuses me, I'll be bugging you wonderful people again to explain it to me. ;)

My biggest confusion was: What about the people who were generally good. Never murdered, never cheated on their significant other, never raped or stolen anything...would they go to **** just because they didn't believe in God?

I guess what is holding me back is the fact that I'm a pretty laid back person...live and let live. If you are gay, that's your choice. If you go to this church instead of that church, that is fine. The only things that I really do feel are wrong are Murder or adultery I mean like really BAD things.

I tend to think along the same lines. Belief can be difficult mentally, and it seems like there should be some reprieve for those who may not believe but still live by the Bible - in terms of the ten commandments and following the examples of Jesus.

I hope you continue to post here - no need to feel like an outsider! =)

I can tell you gals that according to God's Word there are people that have murdered that are in Heaven and plenty that didn't are not.

If we try to set our own standards of who is good enough and who isn't...what is sin and what isn't... we fall into serious trouble.

We are all sinners....

any sin separates us from God...any sin...from that little lie to mass murder...

If we try to reason it out we end up with situations like this...

suppose...just for a second I had committed zero sins in my life....then I find out for a fact that someone is going to murder someone or several people....lets say 20...what if I go and murder him...saving 20 people...what happens to me?....I murdered someone....but I saved 20...murder...is murder...

We all suffer the consequences of our sins on earth...each in a different way...

some say abortion is OK...others don't...some have major issues with it later in life...some don't...

it is not for us to determine the sin...

it is for us to choose whether or not we believe God's Word to be true and fact or not....

If we seek Him His truth becomes clearer to us each and every day...

You gals are the best! :)

it is not for us to determine the sin...

it is for us to choose whether or not we believe God's Word to be true and fact or not....

If we seek Him His truth becomes clearer to us each and every day...

True, Gary. And I know it's whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life... not whoever lives a sinless life. This is still something I struggle with because there are people who I believe lead lives really emulating Christ who may not actually be Christian... ok, actually this is very personal for me - a close friend of mine was shot and killed when we were back in middle school and she was not Christian, but was one of the most wonderful examples of a human being and I can't deal with the idea that she would be unwelcome in Heaven. I did not go to church for several years because of this (my parents didn't go to church when I was in school, just me - so that was never an issue).

At any rate I am very glad that I am no longer letting this keep ME from seeking the truth and I really appreciate being able to have this conversation. This is such a great community!

IRIS ~ Those things are very hard for us to understand...in fact we can't.

We just have to remember that our God is a fair and just AND LOVING God!

One thing that I use to comfort me on the How and Whys of situations like your friend's is....

I know God knows what would have happened with that person if they were able to live their life out as God intended...he knows whether or not that child would have come to Him....

That is all my own thinking and not anything I have ever read or been told.....

it comforts me.

IRIS ~ Those things are very hard for us to understand...in fact we can't.

We just have to remember that our God is a fair and just AND LOVING God!

One thing that I use to comfort me on the How and Whys of situations like your friend's is....

I know God knows what would have happened with that person if they were able to live their life out as God intended...he knows whether or not that child would have come to Him....

That is all my own thinking and not anything I have ever read or been told.....

it comforts me.

... is we don't know what conversation God had with that person just before they died or in their dying breath. Most people will cry out to God in their dying breath. I think the best thing to do is "hope". ;):hug:

You make a very good point, Gary! It makes sense. I'm glad it's not up to me to decide what sin is and what it isn't. Waaaay to confusing! :dizzy: It is comforting to know that God is fair and that he can see into a person's heart.

Iris, I had a similar thing happen to me as well and that is what got me wondering. And thanks for helping me feel welcome!

Ryanne, that is a very interesting point as well! Comforting!
:hug:'s to all