20-Somethings - Not About WL, But I Need Advice!




View Full Version : Not About WL, But I Need Advice!


jerzygal
05-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Hi Friends!!!

I am an amateur dater. I have not been on one date in my 26 years and find myself stumbling around when I like someone. Either I miss opportunities (and just crazy regret it!!) or have a few memories of weird rejection.

So I just fumble with dating and have no idea what to do.

This brings me to my current situation: I have a good friend. We have been friends for awhile but the whole time I have been interested in him. I flirt as I normally do, which is not too obvious (or aggressive) I guess.

He is incredibly uncomfortable with dating and this makes me back off. The last time he dated someone was high school. I think he's really insecure...?

But recently I've been really sure that I want to make our friendship something more.

I'm not sure if he realizes it. And if he does, his dating insecurities make him really unsure.

So it's like the blind leading the blind. If he's interested (which I get the feeling he might be...?), it's just the two of us entering completely uncharted territory.

Another friend recently said to me while we were out to dinner..."Y'all are cute" about me and the boy I'm writing about. And we went to a dinner the other day and everyone thought we were dating.

So I think this means there is chemistry and it's not just me. (This makes me so nervous!)

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?? SAY SOMETHING?? WAIT FOR HIM TO DO SOMETHING??

(I don't think he ever will! And I have this little voice in the back of my head saying he never will say anything because he feels like he could do better or that if *I* say something it'll make the friendship awkward or he'll get really embarrassed.) Will it ruin the friendship? I can be friends with someone if they say they are interested and I'm not.

Is anyone else so awkward in the dating thing? Or have advice to help me?? I have NO idea what I'm doing. But I need to do something or I'll get nowhere. And I'm afraid someone else will come along and get him!!

Sorry for the long post, but I am incredibly inexperienced and a classic overthinker.

BUT ESPECIALLY I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO DO!!


bronte155
05-12-2009, 12:55 AM
I got a late start in the whole dating thing, too, so I can really sympathize with your position! (And I am also an overthinker!) I've definitely had my share of experiences with equally awkward guys where we both stumbled around and never really got anywhere because of our mutual shyness/insecurities.

Now that I have more dating experience, when I look back on those times, I realize I was silly to not just go for it and risk being the more assertive one! In almost every case I've found out later that the guy was interested, too, and would have loved it if I had said something.

You don't have to suddenly kiss him or anything, but I would maybe start a conversation with him about dating in general and try to make the conversation more specific from there. Have you guys been spending a lot of time just with each other? You could say something about how you've enjoyed doing that and that you THINK HE'S A REALLY GREAT GUY and see what he says to that. Either way you may end up with regrets, whether you make a move or whether you don't, but I've found the most painful regrets for me are not the ones I have because I took a chance, but the ones I have because I didn't. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

smallification
05-12-2009, 01:06 AM
Just play it off really casually, if you are too nervous to come right out and ask him. "Everyone seems to think we're dating, eh? Maybe you and I should hook up."

That way you can feel him out on the issue, and if he isn't receptive to joking around about it, then you know not to pursue it further. If he is, then try being a little more direct.


Iconised Ghost
05-12-2009, 01:14 AM
i was going to say pretty much the same thing smallification said, that you should bring it up but make it so it could be taken seriously or in a joking way, then you've given him an opportunity to ask you out or talk about it and if he wants to reject it then he can without making either of you feel stink. You gotta be sneaky! When i was talking my to-be-boyfriend, i complained about how i never got to go to the movies because i had no one to take me :D It gave him the opportunity to be sympathetic but not ask me out, or he could offer to take me if he was interested :D Sneaky

jayohwhy
05-12-2009, 01:48 AM
omg, that was exactly the situation between my bf and i before we got together!

here's what i did.

i dressed up and/or made sure i looked nice to get him to notice me [guys are way visual] [also, please be confidentchick and realize there are hot things about you and play them up]
and then we started hanging out a lot and then one night i did the whole "accidentally" leave my jacket in the car omg i'm cold bit and he ended up putting his arm around me, and that was our subtle way of telling eachother we were into each other.

why am i sharing this? because i didnt know jack about guys until someone told ME.

long story short

1. look good [that doesnt mean look like a model or whatever crap is on the mags these days, but rather, recognize your good qualities and bring them out. trust me, no one notices your bad points except for you!]
2. hang out more
3. find some way to subtly and yet obviously give him an opportunity to make a move. guys are like coconuts so you need to gently knock them a little to get them all shook up, but trust me, if he's worth it, he'll get the hints and want to do something. guys like to feel like the aggressors even though the women actually hold all the cards, so its like my big fat greek wedding where they trick the dad into thinking that it was his idea.

NishKitten
05-12-2009, 09:03 AM
Nope. I'm an expert at picking guys up, but I can not make a relationship work to save my life. Hence my constant search for an emotionally detached man who likes to hang out once in awhile and doesn't mind sharing. Unfortunately he does not exist.

About your guy -- First and foremost, my gaydar twinged a little. Are you sure that he... likes *likes* women? That is a little odd for a grown man not to have dated since high school, especially if he's not particularly absorbed in a runaround job or something.

I only ask this out of concern for your well-being. You need to be sure that as well as loving and being in love with you, he'll be attracted to you. The first love of my life ended up being gay, and I had ignored the telltale signs during our long friendship before we dated. He pursued me trying to force himself to be something he wasn't. It broke my heart to have to let him go (I figured it out before he was ready to end things and accept himself) and he hated me for it. It was hard to be around him for years, but once the light clicked on and he stopped denying what he was he came back to me and we're like peanut butter and jelly to this day. :) I just would hate for you to go through that sort of drama and possibly lose a great friend.

However, if you are absolutely SURE that he's hetero then you need to step up your game a little. Dress up. Always smell sweet. BE the hot girl. Flirt with varying degrees of intensity (keep it casual and friendly in public, put on the charm a little more and the come-hither eyes in private so nobody is in your business) and make sure you touch him. Fingertips on the shoulder, lightly touch his hand, his knee, his hair. You are most definitely not the predatory type, so those are ways you can drive him mad without being overt about it. It's more like friendly guidance. If he's into it, it will only be a few nights laying awake thinking about your fingers in his hair before he asks you out on a date. If he shies away, back off and play it off like it's nothing. No dignity lost. :)

stellarosa27
05-12-2009, 10:00 AM
Jerzygal, you just described my current situation almost to the T. At least you don't live with him :) I feel for you. I think everyone gave really good advice - the hard part is actually TAKING it.

NishKitten
05-12-2009, 10:15 AM
Jerzygal, you just described my current situation almost to the T. At least you don't live with him :) I feel for you. I think everyone gave really good advice - the hard part is actually TAKING it.

What the heck Stella? You LIVE WITH HIM. Let the towel slip after your shower. Done deal. :D

:lol:

stellarosa27
05-12-2009, 11:02 AM
lol I have my own bathroom in my bedroom and he's already seen me half naked.

In the pretext of not hijacking Jerzgal's thread (got to look out for my fellow NJians) I will save that whole fiasco and our long drawn out history for another time.

RubyGuggenheim
05-12-2009, 11:15 AM
This can be mad dangerous territory. The thing is, if you give him an in physically, he may take you up on it, regardless of how he feels about you. Guys, even great guy friends, are kind of notorious for seeing an opportunity and taking it regardless of whether they're actually interested in a relationship or not. Then, you kiss, you can't stop thinking about it, and it turns out he hasn't thought twice.

I think you should definitely figure out a way to figure it out verbally instead of using physical techniques to see if something happens. And be careful!

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 01:18 PM
About your guy -- First and foremost, my gaydar twinged a little. Are you sure that he... likes *likes* women? That is a little odd for a grown man not to have dated since high school, especially if he's not particularly absorbed in a runaround job or something.

OKay...I was wondering if this would pick up the gaydar. I have to say there aren't clear signs except for lack of dating. But then I also haven't dated and am confidently straight. He claims to be straight but I'm sure people wonder...not sure if ever outright. It's such an awkward conversation.

Is just wondering about that a good enough deal breaker??

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 01:22 PM
lol I have my own bathroom in my bedroom and he's already seen me half naked.

In the pretext of not hijacking Jerzgal's thread (got to look out for my fellow NJians) I will save that whole fiasco and our long drawn out history for another time.

Holla Jersey!!

PLEASE hijack the thread! I'm so intrigued! We can handle both!

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 01:25 PM
Lemme also say this is all REALLY good advice. It makes me nervous!! But all is realistic.

I'll reply more later. I've already spent too much work time on this thread!!

cara0017
05-12-2009, 05:39 PM
guys are like coconuts so you need to gently knock them a little to get them all shook up

Hahahahaha. LOVE that line! And so true. I don't have much dating experience either (I come from a small town and I was pretty much the only chubby girls in high school, so let's just say the local boys weren't exactly lining up to take me out), but recent experience has taught me that all you really have to do is:

a) Make an effort to look good - even if it's just putting on mascara and some lipgloss. The little things go a LONG way. Men are visual. Find your strengths and play up to them. For instance, if you have nice hair, don't hide it in a bun with a scrunchy :-)

b) Be available Make it a point to let him know you're free and available if he's so inclined. Give him an in. Take Iconised Ghost as an example : she mentioned she didn't have anybody to go to the movies with and gave her man an in to ask her out. You can easily do the same thing. Just mention in passing that you've always wanted to try that little bistro on the pier or see that new exhibit at the museum or go white-water rafting, whatever! (Note : keep your ears open. Maybe he's dropping hints like that too and is expecting YOU to pick up on it *wink*)


c) Get closer Take NishKitten's advice, but tone it down a bit if you're shyer than she is (which I think you might be. ****, even I am not that proactive with guys. I wish I could be as confident as she is!) Try to add subtle touches on the shoulder or the arm when you're talking to him. If you're too shy for that, at least try to get closer. If you usually stand two feet apart, reduce that to a foot and a half. If you're sitting on a three-person sofa, sit right next to him instead of at the other end (or worse, on a separate couch altogether!) It'll give you the chance to get used to being close to him physically and give you the confidence to THEN move on to the fingertips-on-his-bare-arm-or-hair move.

Please keep us posted!!! I'm sending you loads of good vibes. Oh, and my gaydar didn't go off at all, if that helps at al. I have a ton of gay friends and also know a few guys who are just really shy when it comes to dating and, by what you posted, I'm guessing your boy falls in the second category....

Oh, and STELLAROSA, I'm dying to know your story. You LIVE with him?

stellarosa27
05-12-2009, 07:14 PM
Haha, okay. Well, firstly, I know I'm chicken and that I have an issue with follow through BUT SO DOES HE.

We met my last year in college, through friends, and I've become part of the "group" - these are the guys I live with. I always had a bit of a crush on him, and we have really great chemistry (or so EVERYONE says).
We did hook up once, he was ridiculously trashed and it might have turned out differently if the cops didn't bang down the door to arrest him as we were hooking up. They were campus police - it was a festival weekend and they were being jerks. We've never talked about what happened, I know he remembers because he told one of my other roommates about it. I don't know what he said about it, Jimmy (other roommate) is very closed lipped about it.

We constantly flirt with each other, and do the whole touching thing, etc. Our problem is neither of us will act. Now, he's a really sweet guy, and I don't know if he likes me or if I'm just a great friend. Honestly, *I* think he just sees me as a friend, but everyone else thinks otherwise. Why don't I talk to him? I have no balls. On my birthday one of my lovely girl friends decided to tell him he needed to give me a birthday kiss, and he was okay with that, and then I almost got arrested (the whole traffic court thing a few weeks ago). So its like every time something almost happens, the cops get involved.

He doesn't have any experience with dating, as far as I can tell, and I have absolutely no self confidence when it comes to guys liking me, etc. Its especially weight related when it comes to him b/c one of his friends once said that maybe he wasn't dating me b/c I was a bigger girl. I don't really believe that he thinks like that, but once that seed is planted.

Anyways - I haven't really been pursuing it - we live together, we flirt, he gives me lots of hugs (or I take them) but I make sure that I'm presentable around him most of the time (when I get back from the gym doesn't count). We spend a lot of time together, he was gone this weekend and I was bored out of my mind, and he was emailing me the entire time he was gone.

If I go according to "he's just not that into you" he's just not that into me, but he's an odd duck. My friend Jessie wants to get more time alone with him (and alcohol) to trick it out of him, but eh. I dunno. He was a big support to me after my mom died, like huge, so I also question whether he's just attentive b/c he's making sure I'm okay, or if he likes me.

For a visual (if any of you watch the Big Bang Theory) think Penny and Leonard. Except I'm not a waitress or blond. My sister says that show is my life. Kinda. But my roommates are physicists - we're mostly biologists and we are so not that smart.


Blech.

Jerzygal - where are you from in NJ?

NishKitten
05-12-2009, 10:32 PM
*Bashes head against the wall*

I've said it a million times and i'll say it again -- With men, the cards are in your favor before he even knows you're after him. Don't give them the advantage by letting that oh-so-typical female sense of self-doubt start clouding up your judgement. Too many women project their own insecurities onto the men they like and end up driving them away before a burgeoning relationship can even begin because they start giving off 'i'm batsh*t crazy and desperately need love and if you don't give it to me i'll slash your tires and get you fired from your job' vibes (don't laugh. We all know someone who did that.) Not because the guy doesn't like them initially. You're much more clever than they are. It's genetic, so stop acting like they've got some sort of magical forcefield that makes them impervious to your feminine wiles **provided he is not gay**. If you want him, he is yours. All you have to do is put on your sexy smile, pretend he's interesting, and then say when.
:D <---Sexy smile.

That is seriously how it works. I don't know how it got so convoluted and complicated. Too many lonely self-help authors trying to pass off conspiracy theories as to why they couldn't get a date I suppose.

Jerzy, I wouldn't count him out because his orientation is slightly suspect. There are ways to find out for sure, but none of the ones I know that work 100% of the time are anything I think you would be up for. ;) Try the light touching and looking pretty. If he stays oblivious then there is a good chance you're barking up the wrong tree.

...If that is the case you need to slap him across the face dramatically, tell him to cut the crap, get some peen, and do some 3rd party networking so you can get hooked up with a stylist or something dangit. My BFF has friends of friends, one of whom is a queen with luxurious taste who wears the same size shoes. Homegirl wears an outfit once, then guess what? Christian Louboutin heels come straight to moi. Another is a buyer for MAC, and my eyeshadow pigment collection makes angels sing every time I open my Caboodle. :p And yes you read that correctly. I still have a Caboodle.

shrinkingchica
05-12-2009, 10:40 PM
OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T SEE THIS THREAD EARLIER!!!!!!!

Ummm this is reaaaaalllll close to my situation!!!! Only I have: told him I'm interested, know he isn't gay and we are physically close everytime we are together (nothing more than flirty touching hugging handsies etc tho lol).

I HATE this--- but it helps to know we aren't alone!!!! :hug:

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Well, the more I'm reading from you guys the more I realize that I just need to "shake him like a coconut"! We spend so much time together alone, there are tender moments and touches and there are *definitely* things he's said that could have been an opening for me make the move like he was feeling me out.

So now it's just a matter of catching those moments before I get home and realize...duh!

I saw him last night while we were helping a friend move furniture and he mentioned the Biggest Loser finale tonight.

Because he didn't invite me over to watch it (I don't have t.v. so I spend a lot of time at his place watching shows), I didn't say anything about going to see it. Totally because I was insecure.

BUT because of this thread, I had the courage to call tonight and see if he was watching. Turns out he was at a class tonight and that's why he didn't invite me. But holy crap guys! If it hadn't been for you all I wouldn't have called him and just assumed he wanted to watch alone!

As for you shrinkingchica, we are in the same situation except that my friend has made it clear that his family is not very affectionate so he is awkward with it. (Though I am pretty affectionate with him because that's *my* style and he doesn't tense up! I just stop myself sometimes because he doesn't like it...maybe not anymore though, right Nish?!)

It's also funny that you guys wrote about looking pretty. That just started happening recently because I realized I wanted to look my best around him. And it makes me way more confident to flirt.

I totally see where I can do better with the flirting and even get the courage to make a conversation go in the right direction for me!

Tomorrow we pick up our CSA share (we split a Couples' Share of our local produce co-op). I'll be looking for the right moments to be sneaky!

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 11:42 PM
Jerzygal - where are you from in NJ?

Bergen County!

jerzygal
05-12-2009, 11:48 PM
If I go according to "he's just not that into you" he's just not that into me, but he's an odd duck. My friend Jessie wants to get more time alone with him (and alcohol) to trick it out of him, but eh. I dunno. He was a big support to me after my mom died, like huge, so I also question whether he's just attentive b/c he's making sure I'm okay, or if he likes me.

I want to know what makes it seem like "he's just not that into you". Because it sounds like he gives you a lot of attention...

Do you spend time alone together?

freedomreins
05-13-2009, 04:36 AM
Congrats jerzygal!! I'm so glad you got up the courage to phone! It definitely sounds to me like he's into you.

I was EXACTLY the same about dating. I came to university without ever having had a boyfriend, and didn't meet the one I'm with now until the start of third year. I'm still very insecure and always have been and having had no experience with boys (I hadn't even kissed one!) I didn't know what to do! I was so chicken but so was he, and I think that's natural if you're friends with someone and you're worried about screwing that up. We didn't spend much time alone together before we started dating - you already seem to spend quite some time with your guy one-on-one! You've received some great advice here I think, things I could have used for sure before Christmas! Whatever you do, don't act too differently or change yourself too much for him (I'm sure you wouldn't, but there are a lot of girls that would), because it sounds like he likes you just the way you are now. :) Good luck, keep us posted!

stellarosa27
05-13-2009, 09:50 AM
I want to know what makes it seem like "he's just not that into you". Because it sounds like he gives you a lot of attention...

Do you spend time alone together?

Oh, because the book says "if he's into you, he'll find a way to be with you (in the biblical sense ;) ). That only happened once, with loads of alcohol in his system, so I'm doubtful. We do spend time alone together - usually before everyone in the house gets home from work, we're the only two there, and of course that means I think he only hangs out with me due to boredom. Sorry Nish, its the self-doubt. I'm trying to be better about it, I really am.

And woo hoo! I'm from Hudson County! We're neighbors!!

NishKitten
05-13-2009, 10:01 AM
Oh, because the book says "if he's into you, he'll find a way to be with you (in the biblical sense ;) ). That only happened once, with loads of alcohol in his system, so I'm doubtful. We do spend time alone together - usually before everyone in the house gets home from work, we're the only two there, and of course that means I think he only hangs out with me due to boredom. Sorry Nish, its the self-doubt. I'm trying to be better about it, I really am.

And woo hoo! I'm from Hudson County! We're neighbors!!


I put in bold the part of that statement that is true testament to your extra lame scaredy cat-ness. Didja ever stop and think that maybe, just *maybe*, he's thinking the same thing about you? Hmmmmmm? You had better jump on that hot piece before some skank snatches him up and you regret it forever. Even if it doesn't last, and you find out he's a jackass at least you know. Yanno? Better to have loved and found out he was dumb as a box of rocks than not at all. *Sips coffee* :p


Edited to add: Okay, I keep hearing about this insane book and every quote I see from it irritates me. I don't know if its because it's out of context or what, but WHAT is it, and was it written in the freakin' Victorian era!? Why are they urging women to wait around like a delicate fainting flower for a man to initiate a relationship, and to happily settle for whatever man is willing to take them because he's the one that is 'into' you? I thought we stopped being property (at least in the USA) a few decades ago...

stellarosa27
05-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I cannot say I know enough - and be ashamed at the same time I haven't done anything.

The book isn't so bad - it doesn't talk about us not pursuing them, but mostly goes into how to read if our pursuit is just us deluding ourselves or what.

jerzygal
05-13-2009, 01:52 PM
Stella, I think a good line would be to make a joke...like "Do you think the cops are the only reason we're not dating right now?" or something like that. Don't go by what everyone else is saying or thinking--go to the source! You've already hooked up so I wouldn't worry about awkwardness.

stellarosa27
05-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Haha, I've said that before, just not around him. Oh, the hook up was slightly awkward as in I had no idea what was going on, yet I was the sober one. I was just like wait, what, this is happening, what, why is my bra on the floor WHAT JUST HAPPENED.

Robot
05-13-2009, 03:42 PM
Better to have loved and found out he was dumb as a box of rocks than not at all.

This is my new favorite quote.

sassybangs
05-13-2009, 06:57 PM
ive been in a similar situation. readers digest version: best friends, really liked each other, timing was never right, hooked up, now we dont speak to each other. so since that was a complete failure, i dont feel in a position to give you advice. but, youll never know unless you try. but you HAVE to post an update on what you decided to do and how it worked out. im dying to know! good luck!

jerzygal
05-17-2009, 01:10 AM
Okay, tonight's update. I've been out of town for a few days. Got one text yesterday from the boy asking when I was getting back. Nice and attentive. Made me feel good.

So today...we talked on gmail chat for a bit. I have to take him to the airport tomorrow so we were talking details. Then he went to take a shower.

I totally figured we wouldn't see each other but then I got anxious and wanted to see him tonight.

So I texted him to see if I could bring over wine and hang out while he packed.

Then he said he was cooking dinner and invited me over.

It was a nice night, we had wine and dinner and watched a movie and some of SNL.

So the whole time I was just awkward (in my mind) about what to do. I really hold back with him. If it were other friends, I would snuggle on the couch and spend more time touching.

But I think because I want it to be something more, I freak out and stay far away.

And I mentioned earlier that he is awkward with touching. But there are glances and touches, etc. that seem to me to be signs...but I am SO inexperienced that I feel like I could be misreading or we're just both bumbling around. (remember, of course, my insecurity makes me decide that he is just not interested. -- I have decided that I can't assume that, however, and I will figure it out. I am just feeling around blind and need help!!)

So I did say something. This boy and another friend of mine spend a lot of time together. He said that they had gone to dinner while I was out of town. I told him that it freaks me out because I worry that he and this friend will make out. Because that's true...but then I am freaked out about it! Why did I say that?? He laughed and said, "But that would ruin everything." Which makes me so confused and I am picking that apart.

UGH. I had so many openings tonight but I was just freaked out about sending the "wrong" message -- which is the message I WANT to send -- but then I also don't want us to lose the friendship we have when we are alone together watching movies or cooking dinner.

I am just completely insecure and worry that maybe he's just a friend guy. He has male and female friends and spends time with both.

I keep leaning towards the idea that I need to just put it out there and see. But I don't want to lose my friend. EFF.

I did say something a little leading though...

carcar05
05-17-2009, 12:37 PM
OK First, let me just say, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this whole entire thread.

Now, let's get down the nitty gritty...

So I did say something. This boy and another friend of mine spend a lot of time together. He said that they had gone to dinner while I was out of town. I told him that it freaks me out because I worry that he and this friend will make out. Because that's true...but then I am freaked out about it! Why did I say that?? He laughed and said, "But that would ruin everything." Which makes me so confused and I am picking that apart.

Congrats for saying something- next time, FOLLOW THROUGH. Leaving it open ended, letting him say "But that would ruin everything" without explanation leaves both of you equally in the dark.



I had so many openings tonight but I was just freaked out about sending the "wrong" message -- which is the message I WANT to send
Don't be afraid to send the message you want to send- the right guy for you will appreciate that you were honest about your feelings. And if this guy feels that your feelings for him ruin the friendship, and you lose out on what you have now, that is okay. That's part of life- at least you know you didn't waste more time with a friendship that was not deeply rooted enough to withstand that, and that you also aren't wasting your time waiting for something that will never happen.

Instead, you can move on to bigger and better things- you'll find that man that makes dinner and you just do romantic fun things with- and you'll have a mutual love for each other.

I have dated a lot of guys, and I'm now married to the best guy I'd ever dated. I love him so much- and let me tell you, the first few relationships I had, that I thought THIS IS IT!! absolutely pale in comparison to the kind of love my hubby and I have.


I keep leaning towards the idea that I need to just put it out there and see. But I don't want to lose my friend.


Trust in yourself, girl! If you do make a move and it receives positive reciprocation, than YAY!!! But do you see why lacking confidence is really just hurting the both of you??