100 lb. Club - The End of Overeating




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Jen415
05-03-2009, 03:46 PM
A friend of mine sent me this link:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2767829/controlling_food_urges_the_end_of_overeating_by_dr _david_kessler/

Some very interesting comparisons made, including comparing the restaurant industry and the tobacco industry and how both have people in their grip.

I will probably get the book.


Justwant2Bhealthy
05-03-2009, 05:56 PM
I think this man is onto something ~ like the truth! I have had some similar thoughts myself about junk foods and fast foods; but, I would go even a bit further than Dr. Kessler and say that I think they are like 'POISON' to our bodies. And, we know what that does -- it's deadly -- just like cigarettes; and alcohol, when it's abused as well ...


Thanks for the link!

Buttercup
05-03-2009, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the link! I found it very interesting! Much "food for thought"!


Windchime
05-04-2009, 12:39 AM
I wish I could find a link to the program that I'm listening to right now! It's Dr. Kessler talking about food, how we get hooked on it, and how to change the way we think about food. It's on Public Radio on a show called Tech Nation, but there isn't a link. Darn it! It's really interesting!

Jen415
05-04-2009, 09:44 AM
I think my friend saw Dr. Kessler on Bill Maher.

Here's another article: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS254449+13-Jan-2009+PRN20090113

ChocLabLover
05-04-2009, 11:14 AM
Definately a book I would be interested in reading.

chickiegirl
05-04-2009, 11:18 AM
Thanks for posting, that looks really good. Think I might pick it up.

MissKoo
05-05-2009, 12:16 AM
I just finished Dr. Kessler's book. Funny thing is that he said in his interview "this is not a diet - diets DON'T WORK. I found the book in the with all the other diet books at Barnes & Noble.:p

One of the best books I have read on obesity. Of course, we are responsible for what we put in our mouths but we have to realize what is out there! And the dangers!

Again, great book. Buy it or go to the library.:smug:

time2lose
05-05-2009, 01:59 PM
I watched the video and read an interview with Dr. Kessler. He was talking about me! The pictures of food in the video were my old favorites, my old friends it seemed. I will read the book!

Glory87
05-05-2009, 04:07 PM
I put it on hold at the library - thanks!

Betty Boops
05-15-2009, 02:46 PM
There is actually a program that deals specifically with overeating, The Caryn Ehlrich Program(conquerfood.com). Rather then tell you want to eat and what not to eat and expect you to have the self control.

The Program works on mentally and physically conditioning you to recognize hungry, adjust portion sizes, and develop habits that will stop impulsive and excessive eating.

You might want to check it out.

JulieJ08
05-15-2009, 02:55 PM
I read a little bit from it at the bookstore. He talks about all the things they do to food at restaurant (like Chili's-type places). Makes you not want to eat out, even for things like a chicken breast. What was really interesting to me - He says they do a lot of things to make food easier and faster to chew and eat.

chickiegirl
05-15-2009, 04:38 PM
I read a little bit from it at the bookstore. He talks about all the things they do to food at restaurant (like Chili's-type places). Makes you not want to eat out, even for things like a chicken breast. What was really interesting to me - He says they do a lot of things to make food easier and faster to chew and eat.

You know, I'm a little bit less than halfway through the book and I tell ya, it makes me feel so thick sometimes.

I can believe advertisers do all sorts of things to get us to buy products, but it never dawned on me (duh, girl) that food companies had employed skilled people to find ways to entice me to eat more crap. Not just through advertising, but through the way they actually construct the food. That thought has been a huge eye-opener.

The other thing about the chewing is so funny, because I had recently commented to my mother that it seemed like I was just eating so much food now. I think that was because of all the chewing I do now. So when I read that part, another little ding went off, and I thought, yeah, that's what has happened to me.

No wonder I could eat so much crap so fast before! I didn't have to chew it nearly as much!!

Rosinante
05-15-2009, 04:58 PM
I'm only going on this video clip - very interesting, thankyou - but I think he's asking the wrong people to take responsibility. AFAIK there is no one "The Food Industry" - it makes it sound like a group of evil scientists sitting round going, 'How are we going to enslave the fools today?'

Every individual purveyor of anything tries their best to sell the most they can. So it is not unreasonable for, say, burger manufacturers to do everything they possibly can to make their product as attractive as possible to sell as much as possible.

However, I am not disagreeing about the problem! IMHO the people to take responsiblity over this is the government (each country's own government, I've got to be on a really bad day to believe in international conspiracies lol).
Whilever a food is sanctioned/permitted by governments (silence gives assent) the companies are justified in trying to sell more. Our governments need to step in and take the health of our nations Far More Seriously, make the posting of calories/nutrients compulsory at fast food and restaurant outlets, have public information campagns about how much is too much, do a serious sell on it, the same way as they did when they introduced seatbelt law over here.

I am in favour of food police! Not in people's own homes, any more than people are prevented from smoking in their own homes, but in public outlets there should be a law against selling such blatantly unhealthy food.

So en somme, I agree with the bit I've heard and would like to read the book; but until the proper culprits are made accountable, just blaming the vague 'them' of 'the food inustry' won't help; and yes, of course, we hold personal responsibility to make good choices: some people choose harmful drug use but that's not sanctioned by the government, I don't see why harmful food choices should be so blatantly dangled in front of us.
(End of soapbox workout, I guess the manipulation of the people through food really grinds my gears!)

CJZee
05-15-2009, 05:20 PM
A link to an NPR "Fresh Air" segment:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104068820&ft=1&f=1007

CountingDown
05-15-2009, 05:22 PM
I have found this to be very true for me. Once I went to a whole food, minimal processed food way of eating, my cravings and my "out of control" episodes virtually disappeared.

I love the way I eat now. I enjoy food more than I ever did before this journey. I enjoy the act of eating more.

I agree with Rosebud - those foods are actually poison to my body now. When I do eat them, I feel rotten for days.

Well, with the exception of cheesecake ;)

JulieJ08
05-15-2009, 05:38 PM
I'm only going on this video clip - very interesting, thankyou - but I think he's asking the wrong people to take responsibility. AFAIK there is no one "The Food Industry" - it makes it sound like a group of evil scientists sitting round going, 'How are we going to enslave the fools today?'

Every individual purveyor of anything tries their best to sell the most they can. So it is not unreasonable for, say, burger manufacturers to do everything they possibly can to make their product as attractive as possible to sell as much as possible.

I think I somewhat disagree, but I think it's more semantics :)

First, although there isn't "The Food Industry" there are some pretty dang big players. Many brands that seem to be different brands are actually owned by one company.

Second, I refuse to say it's OK for corporations to do whatever is best for the bottom line, ethics be damned. That doesn't mean I think the government should, or indeed can, regulate ethics. And I don't think there's any black and white way to define what's ethical for someone else. But yeah, I do think it's reasonable for companies, no matter how large, to be 100% ethical , fair, compassionate, honest, everything we expect from individuals. Because they *are* made of individuals, and individuals take home the profits. And those individuals are human beings.

Rosinante
05-15-2009, 05:59 PM
I agree that we probably agree! Mostly.

I think those involved in food industries who are tasked with trying to make their product as irresistible as possible must have to have a cold, cold outlook that I don't at all condone. I do think regulation is the way to go, though, because otherwise they can continue to self-justify.

A hundred years ago when I left university, I was up for 2 jobs, one with the government and one with a well known chocolate manufacturer. As part of the wkcm's interview process, I had to go to a dinner and talk in a hotel. That very morning, the job offer from the govt. arrived, and I took it - but went and had the dinner anyway..... well, it was booked already. I don't remember the dinner but I do remember the talk, it was about little chocolate sweeties in multi-coloured candy shells. In those days, blue was not available in the UK - but it could be sold in, I think, Saudi Arabia.... and I came away knowing I'd made the right decision, I could never get that excited about coloured chocolate.

AFAIK, the product was safe (or believed to be safe) but to be successful in the company, you had to be obsessive about its marketing. I guess burger/other fast crp purveyors have to be that obsessive, and I think only regulation will stop them.

rockinrobin
05-15-2009, 06:18 PM
I have found this to be very true for me. Once I went to a whole food, minimal processed food way of eating, my cravings and my "out of control" episodes virtually disappeared.

I love the way I eat now. I enjoy food more than I ever did before this journey. I enjoy the act of eating more.

I agree with Rosebud - those foods are actually poison to my body now. When I do eat them, I feel rotten for days.

Well, with the exception of cheesecake ;)

Sign my name to this post. Word for word - right down to the cheesecake. ;)

It's so easy following CountingDown when responding to a post. She does all the thinking for me. Writes it out so articulately and I just have to ditto it. :smug:

kiramira
05-15-2009, 11:22 PM
Manufacturers want us to buy their products. They make their products as appealing as possible. They hire advertisers and lobbyists to create the desire.

Advertisers and lobbyists present these products to us.

We have the CHOICE whether or not to purchase them. Period.

This is the essence of a free market. Whether the product in question is a car, a tv, an iPod, fabric softener, or food.

I am just SO. TIRED. of listeneing to "experts" place the "blame" for the current obesity epidemic on the manufacturers of crap, or the advertisers of crap, or the sellers of crap, or the government for NOT PREVENTING its sale.

Are we all THAT helpless in the face of our tvs and radios? Are we all puppets that can be manipulated into stuffing our collective faces with crap because the evil corporations and the governments "want" us to?? Do we go out and buy EVERYTHING that is advertised? Are we REALLY mindless robots who believe that "we deserve a break today" because a guy dressed up like a CLOWN TELLS us so??? Are there NO healthy options that you can purchase IF YOU CHOOSE TO???

My GOD, people, let's stand up and acknowledge that we have FREE WILL. NOONE puts a gun to our head and orders us through the DRIVETHROUGHS. NOONE says "eat these Cheetos or I'll kill your mother"...
HONESTLY.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this isn't the fault of the corporations or the government or some evil plot to enslave the people with the bonds of convenience food. It IS the fault of the right hand that hold the fork.

And if you choose to assume OWNERSHIP of your own darn weight problem, you'll be able to address it that much more effectively than if the issue is externalized...

-rant over- :)

Kira

CountingDown
05-15-2009, 11:28 PM
:o Thanks Robin!

I often ditto your posts as well. You are such an inspiration - I can't tell you how much your posts over the last 20+ months have guided my journey :yes:

Glory87
05-16-2009, 04:04 AM
Manufacturers want us to buy their products. They make their products as appealing as possible. They hire advertisers and lobbyists to create the desire.

Advertisers and lobbyists present these products to us.

We have the CHOICE whether or not to purchase them. Period.

This is the essence of a free market. Whether the product in question is a car, a tv, an iPod, fabric softener, or food.

I am just SO. TIRED. of listeneing to "experts" place the "blame" for the current obesity epidemic on the manufacturers of crap, or the advertisers of crap, or the sellers of crap, or the government for NOT PREVENTING its sale.


Have you read Food Politics or In Defense of Food yet?

It is absolutely maddening what special interest groups did to the "Food Pyramid." Infuriating. The food industry did crazy stuff like not allow the government to include words like "eat less!" It's NUTTY stuff, it should make your blood boil. Forget the government not "preventing its sale" the government is in BED with these special interest groups - the government isn't looking out for YOU or ME or anybody. Preventing the sale, heck, they are ENCOURAGING, they are having parades! The government and the "food industry" are having a PARTAY at the expense of our health and waistlines.

***
Nestle -- who is now the chair of New York University's Department of Nutrition and Food Studies -- managed the production of the first (and only) Surgeon General's Report on Nutrition and Health in 1988. She chronicled the food industry's influence on government dietary guidelines in her book Food Politics, writing, "My first day on the job, I was given the rules: No matter what the research indicated, the report could not recommend 'eat less meat' as a way to reduce intake of saturated fat....The producers of food that might be affected by such advice would complain to their beneficiaries in Congress, and the report would never be published."
***

You say people should be smart enough to make healthy decisions, but when the American government publishes a FOOD PYRAMID for healthy eating (heck, I remember drawing it as a kid in school!!) - why shouldn't they trust it? How much research is the typical American supposed to do to find what constitutes eating healthy? Why shouldn't they eat the recommended ELEVEN servings of grains every day (which included rice, pasta and cereal with no mention of whole grains?).

I had to do a damn lot of research - and I'm still learning stuff all the time. Does the typical person want to? Should they have to?

rockinrobin
05-16-2009, 08:46 AM
:o Thanks Robin!

I often ditto your posts as well. You are such an inspiration - I can't tell you how much your posts over the last 20+ months have guided my journey :yes:

Not to hijack the thread, but I can't begin to tell you how much I admire you and what you have accomplished. Whenever I see that you have posted, I can't wait to read it, that's just how much I enjoy your posts.

And now, from Glory:

I had to do a damn lot of research - and I'm still learning stuff all the time. Does the typical person want to? Should they have to?

Me too. To a "T". Ha, another poster I love to follow! Anyway, this was the case with me. I had to do my own research. And I still am learning. Not only are most people not willing to do this, they don't even realize that they HAVE to.

CountingDown
05-16-2009, 10:46 AM
Glory - you are so right! Research and continually tweaking our plans is critical to our success. Like you, I am angry and frustrated with what special interest groups and lobbyists have done to government recommendations.

The pyramid is much better than the 4 food groups with which I grew up, even with its flaws.

The book More with Less (http://www.amazon.com/More-Less-Cookbook-Janzen-Longacre/dp/083619103X) was an eyeopener when I first read it back in the 80s. It is mostly a cook book (Mennonite), but the narrative portion of the book hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, they had to site research from other countries since so little research was published here in the United States.
Until I read that book, the idea of eating lower on the food chain and avoiding processed and frankenfoods, was an idea that never crossed my mind.

WarMaiden
05-16-2009, 12:24 PM
Having read In Defense of Food and other research on the topic, I'm with Glory and Robin et al on this issue. What our government has done and continues to do to create the conditions for American obesity, in the name of profit for private corporations, is utterly shameful.

Ranting about how obesity is only the fault of the person holding the fork is a vast oversimplification. And it's obviously possible to take personal responsibility, lose a substantial amount of weight, and still recognize that the institutions which shape our world should share blame for the problem.

kaplods
05-16-2009, 03:22 PM
I've always been very bright. I learned to read before kindergarten, and was counting calories, and reading in the adult section of the library (usually weight loss books), by eight. In essence, I've been researching and attempting weight loss with limited success for the last 35 years. I've put a lot more energy into researching weight loss than I did either of my psychology degrees (bachelors and masters). In graduate school, I wanted to do my thesis on morbid obesity and weight loss, but I was too embarassed to write on such an obviously personal topic, especially when I hadn't had the success I was hoping to have had by graduation. If I had lost 150 lbs before finishing the thesis, that would have been ok. I ended up choosing the exam option so I wouldn't have to write a thesis at all, because I was so afraid to have to defend it (especially since the psychology professors I'd be defending it to were not overweight, and most were men).

There are a lot of factors that contribute to obesity, and I don't think research is even scraping the surface. Only some of those factors are under the conscious control of the obese person. Acknowledging that is NOT absolving the person of responsibility, rather it gives the obese person and their support system knowledge, and knowledge is power. Learning that obesity might not be entirely my fault, or entirely under my control, did not make me say "great, I don't even have to try to lose weight, because it's not my fault."
On the contrary, it inspired me to say, "No wonder I've had such a hard time with this. It isn't that I'm lazy, crazy, or stupid, this stuff is really hard, and if I have to work a lot harder and learn a lot more - that's just the luck of the genetic, socio-cultural draw."

I think one of the main reasons that I didn't learn much sooner, is that I did believe "it's just the person with the fork." When a diet didn't work, I told myself the cliche' "any diet works if you work it," and when I failed I told myself "the diet didn't fail me, I failed the diet." In essence, I was ramming my head against a brick wall, and returning repeatedly to just go at the wall with more speed, and wondering why I ended up with a headache and the wall was still there.

When I first started reading the research that many people so often claim encourages people to avoid taking personal responsibility, I felt guilty for even reading the research (was I subconsciously trying to absolve myself of the blame?), but that wasn't my experience. The more I read, the more tools I had to fight, and the more committed I became to doing so. I still didn't have a lot of success, largely because there's a lot more misinformation out there than good information on weight loss. Most researchers (it's starting to change, but just) were trying to find THE cause of obesity or THE best treatment, and in my opinion weren't asking the right questions. A person who, like me, was underweight until almost 5 and obese by kindergarten may be a very different person than a person who started gaining weight after menopause. And, if the causes of obesity can be very different, maybe the treatments have to be too (yes, they almost all incorporate eating less and moving more, but factors that make it easier or harder to do may be different, and knowing those factors can be half the battle).

I'm so tired of people telling me that I "finally decided to do it," believing that motivation is the primary and ONLY factor in weight loss. Oh how I wish that was true. I certainly had a lot more motivation and energy to implement that motivation when I was younger. I didn't have to work harder, I had to work smarter. I had to understand why I felt like I was starving 24/7, and felt a drive to eat even after having eaten a large meal, and why right before and during TOM it got so bad that I felt like a starving, caged, animal (when hubby called me werewolf, it wasn't too far from accurate. Sometimes he was very lucky that I only figuritively bit his head off).

I firmly believe that if I had not changed my bc to skip periods, and had not found low carb eating, I would weigh more than 400 lbs, by now. They were both, essentially factors outside myself, and I didn't start losing weight permanently until I addressed them. And it wasn't easy, because although I had been asking doctors since my mid 20's about using bc to skip periods, I was always discouraged from doing so. Assuming they knew best, I didn't push it.

And as for low carb, my only experience with it was that I knew it was unhealthy (everyone knows that, right?) and that when I was desperate enough to try low carb diets the first phase always made me extremely ill (now, I recognize those symptoms, which the books always attributed to "carb-withdrawal, as symptoms of low blood sugar - It's possible that I was insulin resistant for decades). It took not only my doctor recommending low carb for me to try it, but a second opinion from another doctor before I even considered giving it a try. Even my doctor's suggestions not to "go to low carb" (even though admitting he didn't know what "too low" was) helped me to understand that there may be an optimal carb-level for me, and I might have to experiment to find it.

I'm starting to rant and ramble, but it just drives me absolutely insane when people tell me "it's only a matter of willpower." Willpower is the least effective of all my weight loss strategies. Sometimes willpower is almost as inefective on eating as it is for holding one's breath. Oh sure, you're not going to pass out and start eating while unconscious, but the instinct to eat can be almost as overpowering as the instinct to breathe. Outsmarting the primitive brain can be quite a challenge, and assuming that fat people are lazy, crazy, bad, or stupid if they haven't mastered their body weight is just plain wrong, morally and factually.

Is the "food industry" to blame entirely for all obesity? Of course not, but they do take a share. Maybe it's only 3% of the problem, maybe the percentage differs for each person. There are so many factors, that if they all are just 1% of the problem, they can add up pretty quickly. There's still plenty of "blame" for the individual to accept, and that too may vary from person to person.

The thing is we can't SEE those factors, so we don't know whom and to what degree, they are affecting any individual, so it's easiest to lay all of the blame at the feet of "the person with the fork." If only it were that simple.

Me23
05-17-2009, 10:33 AM
The thing is, there's a difference between fault and responsibility.

kiramira
05-17-2009, 01:22 PM
It IS that simple. It IS simply a matter of lifestyle and food choice. If it WEREN'T as simple as calories in/calories out, then obesity surgery would not be a treatment option as it would NOT have a reliable outcome. And it DOES have a predictable and measurable outcome. Regardless of the genetics of the individual, and regardless of the Hamburgler, and regardless of the evil government who wants us enslaved to corporate interests and regardless of the medications that a person is on. Obesity surgery helps a person restrict their calories: result --weight loss. The PRIMARY factor for NOT proceeding with obesity surgery once it is determined that a person will most likely survive the surgery is the evaluation of an individual's readiness to change their diet and lifestyle habits. This is why the surgery is a TOOL, not a CURE. It is STILL up to the individual to maintain the small size of their pouch and therefore restrict their food intake. And the maintainers have showed us that this is indeed possible -- rockinrobin OFTEN makes the point about making the CHOICE to change...

And at the end of the day, who CARES who shoulders the blame? At the end of the day, weight issues are an indiviudal issue and one either chooses to deal with it or not. Blame-laying doesn't help. It really is up the an individual and individual responsibility to control what one chooses to put into ones body. Period. And how much MORE money do we as a nation want to pour into books and give to wealthy authors to explain the WHYS -- how about taking that money and funding a decent breakfast/lunch program to give kids a fighting chance at healthy living early on in life? How about taking money from the research that pharamaceutical companies pour into finding an obesity "cure" and fund recess and sports activities instead?

JMHO..

Kira

kaplods
05-17-2009, 02:53 PM
Saying it is "simply" a matter of eating less and moving more (calores in/out), is a bit like saying that the solution to poverty is a matter of poor people "choosing" to earn more and spend less. While it may be "true," saying that to anyone in a financial crisis, provides absolutely no useful information or tools to assist a person in poverty in implementing that "truth."

The same is true of obesity. It isn't that "eating less and moving more," isn't the solution, rather that finding ways to make it doable, for many people, is neither simple nor easy.

A "calorie is a calorie," is misleading. Firstly, there are calories (those from fiber, and perhaps partially sugar alcohols) that human bodies cannot digest (some nutrition labels include these calories, some do not). Also, lower carb eathing for some folks (especially those with blood sugar issues) can be much more successful than higher carb eating. When I first started following lower carb eating, I thought the much more rapid loss was due to the caloric restriction (mostly because of the reduction in hunger) and water weight (I still find that I retain less water, eating low carb). However, I learned by months of food journals, that I lose more weight on 1800 calories of low carb than on 1800 calories of high carb. I'm also less hungry so calorie restriction is easier, and have more energy so exercise and daily activity is easier.

And that's why, while it is "just lifestyle," it's necessary to find ways to make the lifestyle more acheivable.

I can't fully describe what it was like before I found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection (and I would have never found that connection if I hadn't been able to think outside of the "it's just a lifestyle choice, eat less and exercise more" box). Telling me "just eat less," was like telling a starving person to "use willpower," and not eat anything while setting a banquet buffet before them.

I wasn't physically starving, of course, but my body chemistry was telling me that I was. Believing it was "just my choice," didn't help me any, it slowed me down, because it blinded me to finding tools to make that choice possible in the long term. I was only able to use "willpower" to lose weight, if I sacrificed virtually everything else in my life, and I mean that literally. In order to keep from eating, I had to use an insane amount of effort - and there was little time for anything else - even my job performance would suffer while I was dieting, because I couldn't concentrate (I was too busy thinking about food and/or not eating it). I was also exhausted all of the time, and felt terrible.

We do need the information on why weight loss is so hard, in order to make it easier. Because while "exercise more and eat less," is the answer, making it more acheiveable is going to be the key to more people achieving it.

You can't underestimate the role of societal convention. As my husband is so fond of saying "people are sheep." We are taught by society how to "diet," and mostly we're taught to diet ineffectively and temporarily. To lose weight, a person has to unlearn much of what they didn't even know they were taught, and needs to be able to think and act outside of the box, and that's often very difficult, because more often than not, they aren't even aware of the box.

Liliann
05-17-2009, 04:03 PM
Thank you for sharing..Very interesting!

rockinrobin
05-17-2009, 04:30 PM
However, I learned by months of food journals, that I lose more weight on 1800 calories of low carb than on 1800 calories of high carb. I'm also less hungry so calorie restriction is easier, and have more energy so exercise and daily activity is easier.

Aha! So you see, you had to discover this on your own. You took matters into your own hands. Thankfully. :)

And that's why, while it is "just lifestyle," it's necessary to find ways to make the lifestyle more acheivable.

Exactly. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US has to find the ways to make this lifestyle more achievable for ourselves. We couldn't possibly leave this up to any one else. It's too individual.

I can't fully describe what it was like before I found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection

But you did find it. (yay!) It was your doing. You kept on delving and searching. Not leaving anything as vital up to any one but you.


We do need the information on why weight loss is so hard, in order to make it easier. Because while "exercise more and eat less," is the answer, making it more acheiveable is going to be the key to more people achieving it.

But it's up to us to decide what will make it more achievable to each of us, as individuals, as there is not one "correct" method.

To lose weight, a person has to unlearn much of what they didn't even know they were taught, and needs to be able to think and act outside of the box, and that's often very difficult, because more often than not, they aren't even aware of the box.

Difficult, perhaps. Doable, definitely. I firmly believe that just because something is hard, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to master it, it just means we should try HARDER. A favorite quote comes to mind, "If we would only recognize that life is hard, things would be much easier."


And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

CountingDown
05-17-2009, 06:04 PM
And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Robin, you are so right! The journey itself is important. Losing weight is so complex that I'm not sure that my current plan would have worked for me when I started. As my body changed and as my lifestyle changed, so did my plan.

I also believe that body, mind, and spirit affect our weight loss. The same plan works differently for me depending upon where my mind and spirit are at. If I am stressed, for example, I will lose weight differently than if I am more "balanced".

Colleen is right - it isn't a simple thing. I am still tweaking things as I go, weight loss/maintenance is a dynamic rather than static process.

kaplods
05-17-2009, 06:07 PM
kaplods: I can't fully describe what it was like before I found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection

rockinrobin

But you did find it. (yay!) It was your doing. You kept on delving and searching. Not leaving anything as vital up to any one but you.
________________________________________

I wish I could say this was true. The fact is that about a decade ago, I stopped trying, because I was wearing myself out, and dieting was only making me fatter, because I couldn't sustain the "willpower" alone. I vowed never to diet again, and my weight stabilized. It was very high, but I learned that when I didn't starve myself, the binging completely disappeared without any effort on my part. Gone was the temptation to eat until I was uncomfortable.

I didn't delve or search to find my current plan - I tripped over it, or more accurately, it fell on me. I had always asked doctors about the period skipping bc, but was always discouraged. It never dawned on my to go against my doctor's recommendations. It wasn't until I got very ill and was bounced from specialist to specialist trying to sort it all out, that I realized that if I wanted to improve my health, I had to become my own doctor first. I saw that it would almost be easier to self-teach myself than to find doctors able to figure it out - especially in the 10 minute or less allotted to the average medical appointment in the modern medical system.

When I was diagnosed with sleep apnea, the pulmonologist told me that I might lose some weight without trying (Sure it will, I thought sarcastically).

Well, in essence that's what happened. I lost at least 20 lbs without trying. They just fell off, and I'm not even sure when because at the time I didn't have a scale and was only weighed at doctor's appointments every 4 months.

When my doctor recommended the low carb eating, I thought he was nuts (after all it's still "common knowledge" that low carb eating is horrendously unhealthy and evil). Even after a second opinion from a doctor who had lost nearly 100 lbs herself on a modified Atkins, I was still skeptical.
_____________________

I had been asking doctors about this particular bc change since my mid- twenties, and I had never gotten a positive response. I was always discouraged, and sometimes even told that it would make my PMS (which was so severe, it really was PMDD) worse! I didn't know that this was under my control, I didn't know that I could demand that I be allowed to try, and quite frankly, I respected their professional medical opinion (or I wouldn't have kept them as my primary care physicians).

Right now, trial and error is all we've got. But, maybe with better research, eventually there will be diagnostic tools that will help a person shortcut some of the trial and error, and predict which efforts are most likely to succeed.

Of course a person has to be willing to make changes, but the person also has to have access to good and correct information. If this has been so difficult for me, with all of my natural self-confidence and all of the effort and mind power that I devoted to it - I can't expect someone who is poor, uneducted, and lacking in self-confidence and social skills to have a chance. If it took me 37 years to figure this out, and 37 years to get the cooperation from medical professionals, what chance does someone without all of my advantages have?

CountingDown
05-17-2009, 06:18 PM
Right now, trial and error is all we've got. But, maybe with better research, eventually there will be diagnostic tools that will help a person shortcut some of the trial and error, and predict which efforts are most likely to succeed.

If it took me 37 years to figure this out, and 37 years to get the cooperation from medical professionals, what chance does someone without all of my advantages have?

LOL - it took me almost 50 years! I think that is why 3FC is such a wonderful resource for many of us. It gives us information regarding what is working for others. I think 3FC IS that shortcut I needed to help me find a way of eating that would work for me.

Reading of your experience, undoubtedly has helped many others with similar health issues. You have illuminated those shortcuts that others may wish to take.

Our maintainers did that for me. Reading the posts of our maintainers put me on the right path to begin this journey. While the road I am traveling isn't the same as theirs, I am heading in the same general direction. They were able to point out pitfalls, roadblocks and even jewels along the way.

Glory87
05-17-2009, 06:23 PM
And truth be known, if someone would have sat me down and told me, "Robin, you need to do this and this and this and you will lose weight, permanently", and that this and this and this is EXACTLY what I am doing right now - it most likely wouldn't have "worked". Because the best plan out there for each of us, whatever that may be, won't "work" unless we CHOOSE to make it work. And quite honestly, I'm not sure I was willing to make the choices that were necessary to "make it work", until I actually did it. Kind of like which came first - the chicken or the egg?

I agree. If future me had been able to sit down with 20 year old me, who was developing a weight problem and said "hey, this is what you need to do and it's pretty easy, actually" 20 year old me would have said NO WAY. I don't think I would have been ready. Give up fast food? Cook all the time? Pack lunches? Cut back on drinking? Bor-ing and way too much work.

rockinrobin
05-17-2009, 06:30 PM
I agree. If future me had been able to sit down with 20 year old me, who was developing a weight problem and said "hey, this is what you need to do and it's pretty easy, actually" 20 year old me would have said NO WAY. I don't think I would have been ready. Give up fast food? Cook all the time? Pack lunches? Cut back on drinking? Bor-ing and way too much work.

And for me, I had "heard" all about the folks who successfully lost weight eliminating the "white stuff" - the bread, pasta, sugar, rice, etc.... I heard about it, but thought - "NO WAY, I'm doomed, I can't live without it, I'm just not willing to do that." Until of course many more years of misery took place and I had had enough and then I WAS willing to do so. That and all the other things Glory mentions. Willingness. Ummm, have I ever mentioned I believe that is key? ;)

kaplods
05-17-2009, 06:36 PM
LOL - it took me almost 50 years! I think that is why 3FC is such a wonderful resource for many of us. It gives us information regarding what is working for others. I think 3FC IS that shortcut I needed to help me find a way of eating that would work for me.

YES! I so agree. If I had access to a network of support and information like 3FC at any point before I turned 30 - I firmly believe that currently I would weigh at least 100 lbs lighter than I do now, and probably wouldn't have developed at least half of the health issues I have now.



Reading of your experience, undoubtedly has helped many others with similar health issues. You have illuminated those shortcuts that others may wish to take.

I hope so, because I'd love to be able to give a little back of what being here has given me. I don't think I would have had the courage to try low-carb dieting (because it's so "bad") without reading all of the positive experiences some people here have had with it.

kiramira
05-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.

Kira

junebug41
05-17-2009, 07:34 PM
Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.

Kira

You're right, it's not. However, as an overweight child of the 90's I can't begin to explain what kind of shock to my system it was when I "woke up" and realized what my parents must have been fighting as far as external sources were concerned. It very much is an uphill battle (I mean, we have a Diary Council. Why on earth to we need a Dairy Council or any other food lobby??). My parents did their very best to instill healthy habits in me and eventually they did prevail. Thank God it was before a heart attack, diabetes, etc... others aren't so lucky.

And this isn't something that has become easier- perhaps only more manageable with knowledge and experience. There have been plenty of instances (and I'm sure there are maintainer posts that support this) where I'm fighting with all I have against what I *know* is good for *me* and what society wants me to consume. Sometimes I think our identities are strongly represented by food. Our society certainly is.

I also echo every bit of Glory87's post earlier re: In Defense of Food. I also recommend the China Study if you've never checked it out.

... it really isn't about blaming anyone (and I'm sure any maintainer would agree), but asking for a little responsibility and accountability- as I myself have tried to embrace- isn't a preposterous idea, IMHO.

Edit: and on the topic of CHOICE and DEDICATION, I think it's a great catch phrase and sumises the actions of many maintainers here on 3FC, but I think that is oversimplifying what our society is really up against. I have peers that were raised on the quintessential SAD and their struggle for health (and weightloss) presents issues very different than mine.

My choices were fairly easy because I had access to them. I was raised not only with limited bad choices, but a wide variety of good ones. I look around at my society and I don't see choices for a lot of people. It's hard to realize your own choices when you are simply unaware you have them. Some folks can teach themselves. Some folks (like me) were taught by their parents. Many folks have to learn for themselves and it's a very confusing process when your food pyramid is dominated by special interests and food lobbies. I think it kind of simplifies the struggle to say that most people are simply making the wrong choice when I think a lot of people just haven't reached that point of information and education about what exactly they are eating.

rockinrobin
05-17-2009, 08:05 PM
Thanks, rockinrobin. Like I said, your journey and those of the maintainers have shown that a person needs to assume responsibility for their eating and lifestyle behaviors if one is to tackle a weight issue. It isn't up to an external source, be it medical nor governmental, to dictate what choices an individual makes. Likewise, one can't place the "blame" at external sources for one's weight issues. One needs to find a program that suits one's lifestyle and make it work. And the key is CHOICE and DEDICATION.


Yes,I do agree - bottom - bottom line - it's up to US, each and every one of us to take responsibility for our own health. Be our own advocate. Find, seek, hunt, probe - whatever it takes.

And this isn't something that has become easier- perhaps only more manageable with knowledge and experience. There have been plenty of instances (and I'm sure there are maintainer posts that support this) where I'm fighting with all I have against what I *know* is good for *me* and what society wants me to consume.

On one hand it is easier, as these habits are so automatic to me. Though of course I struggle (plenty at times) with doing the "right" thing, even though I knew FULL WELL what the right thing is. Which really supports the claim that it all comes down to choice. I can't let what "society" wants interfere with what I want. Of course, this was 20+ years in the making for me.

kiramira
05-17-2009, 08:23 PM
I absolutely understand what you are saying, Ms Junebug and Ms kaplods, but respectfully, to use a perhaps overworked phrase: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". You know, when someone gets a speeding ticket and says, well, I'm NEW to town, I didn't KNOW there was a speed limit, noone told me there was a speed limit here, my passenger doesn't have a license so I had no guidance, I was going as fast as everyone else, there should be bigger signs, I forgot my glasses, it was night time, my parents never obeyed the speed limit so I have no example to follow, and so on.

And how I relate this phrase to weight loss is that many people come from areas and places where choices are limited either by circumstance or habit or lack of education. And a person will either recognize that they need to get more education in certain areas in order to succeed or they won't. But agonizing about the "whys" and "who is responsible" is energy wasted, IMHO.

And isn't it just possible that the debate about who and why and how come is really just obscuring the essential truth of the matter? We can pay homage to those influences that we have had and our particular makeup and do our best to understand, but perhaps effort towards figuring out how to solve the problem for ourselves may be time well spent? If, of course, one truly wishes to address the situation. Some may not want to, and of course, that choice is respected by yours truly UNTIL the externalization of the issue occurs.

I'm not going to post more on this (and a great cheer goes up amongst the crowd!!! hahahaha!!!). I just really get frustrated when I read threads like this. I too have a bad family history. I have medical conditions and take meds that enhance weight gain. I had no food choices growing up. I never even got an allowance, but I'll tell you that any change I found in the sofa was funnelled directly into our school's vending machine! I was teased in gym class. I get this. BUT I have chosen to change my life and have picked a plan that is working for me and my lifestyle. I choose not to blame my parents -- they did the best they could given the circumstances of the economy and education. I choose not to waste my precious time worrying about dairy lobby groups and what their effects have been on me when I was six. I choose not to line the pockets of diet book authors or investigative authors about the diet and food industries any more.

Instead, I choose to volunteer and financially support sports teams for underprivileged children in my community. I choose to volunteer for our local breakfast program so that children get a fighting chance at nutritious choices once a day. I choose to provide gardening experience and advice to local community vegetable gardens. I choose to travel to schools to discuss vegetable growing from seeds and to help them start home gardens. Sometimes the children will educate the parents!!! And if we ALL did a little bit of this, we can help our communities become healthier and stronger. If we all do just a little bit, wouldn't this be more effective for our society as a whole with respect to obesity than lining the pockets of yet another diet expert?

I choose to exercise my free will and make choices for me and for my body despite what manufacturers and marketers and the government and lobbyists may want me to make. I choose to focus on those habits that are IMHO healthful for me. Trust me, if I can do this, so can ANYONE.

And I get so frustrated when people overindulge and see the consequences of their choices and then act like somebody cut the brakelines on their car!


And there are those who will continue the struggle to understand WHY they have a weight issue and to assess responsibility, and I respect that. And I truly want success for everyone here. But I just can't agree that anyone other than ones'self is responsible for one's weight issue. And I absolutely believe that change is within everyone's grasp and that we ALL can do it, with dedication, self-forgiveness, and perserverance.

'Nuf said!

Thanks for listening and allowing me to vent!
:hug:
Kira

Ija
05-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Edit: and on the topic of CHOICE and DEDICATION, I think it's a great catch phrase and sumises the actions of many maintainers here on 3FC, but I think that is oversimplifying what our society is really up against.

I agree with this 100%. It's easy to dismiss the role that one's context plays in behavior, when in reality, behavior is pretty darn lawful. I think this attitude is especially prevalent in Western societies where individualism and personal (rather than collective) responsibility is emphasized. But there are mountains of data that make pretty darn clear that human behavior is not solely determined by the force of will, but is also shaped by a multitude of external factors. Stimulus control is real, and when it comes to food consumption (and many would argue, drug abuse) it's particularly relevant.

junebug41
05-17-2009, 09:00 PM
On one hand it is easier, as these habits are so automatic to me. Though of course I struggle (plenty at times) with doing the "right" thing, even though I knew FULL WELL what the right thing is. Which really supports the claim that it all comes down to choice. I can't let what "society" wants interfere with what I want. Of course, this was 20+ years in the making for me.

Yeah, I think you're right, but it wasn't all that long ago when society very much interfered with what I ate and it's been such a learning process discovering the "why's" and the reasoning behind it. I truly feel...awake.

rockinrobin
05-17-2009, 09:15 PM
Yeah, I think you're right, but it wasn't all that long ago when society very much interfered with what I ate and it's been such a learning process discovering the "why's" and the reasoning behind it. I truly feel...awake.

Society was not responsible for me buying 1/2 gallons of ice cream and treating them as single servings. Society never forced me to shovel M & M's (peanut, of course ;)), down my throat. Nor was it society that made me stop doing those things either. The "good" choices were always available to me. I just chose to ignore them.

It HAS been a learning process for me as well. Because I took the bull by the horns and CHOSE to educate myself. When I searched hard enough - it was all there for the taking. I just chose to look the other way all those years.

kaplods
05-17-2009, 09:27 PM
As a former probation officer, I can tell you that ignorance of the law is no excuse, however it is considered a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing.

Even in probation, we were taught that there is a social responsibility to the criminal offender - external factors do play a role in the offending, and the more opportunities that society provides, and the more you can get an offender to participate appropriately in the social network, the more successful they are. We encouraged probationees to go to church (any church), because the statistics are that if they find a supportive church, and other positive social groups they are less likely to offend. And, if their church or positive social group rejects them, they are more likely to reoffend.

It isn't that the criminal offender or the overweight person is not responsible for their behavior, but the individual's physical and social environments play a role in the responsibility as well. And yes, knowledge of available choices is a HUGE component in individuals in either group succeeding.

By the time I hit puberty, I literally was a freak. Very few people were my size, and fewer people were overweight. So in the last 35 years, what has changed? Are people dumber, lazier, and less motivated than people in the past? Why is this trend only seen in eating/exercise/weight (people are more educated and working more hours and spending more time in "productive" activities than people in the past, and sleeping less also)?

The social, economic, and cultural changes are partially responsible for the fact that 1 in 3 Americans are overweight 1 in 3. Not entirely, but partially. Society can help people help themselves. We who need the help can't wait for that to happen, but we (as people who belong to the society) have an obligation to be part of the solution - not just for ourselves, at the level of the individual - but for others, also.

It can start small, like not laughing or staring at a giantly fat woman like me in a bathing suit, or calling a size 2 celebrity fat because she has a bit of cellulite. Maybe then more overweight people would feel less afraid of swimming and engaging in other physical activities in public. I have learned to not give a fig about what people think of me when I swim, bicycle, or walk, but I see so many people much smaller than I with paralyzing fear over even being in public, as if mere existence were a crime. That it's not socially acceptable in many places for fat women to wear a bathing suit or even a sleeveless top no matter how hot it is, that IS "society's" responsiblity - which really means it's all of our responsibility.

Because society IS us, everything boils down to the individual, and we are responsible to ourselves first, but we are responsible to others as well. It takes a village, not only to raise a child, but to rehabilitate a criminal, and to our mental and physical healths as well. We are our brothers keepers.

sidhe
05-17-2009, 10:06 PM
By the time I hit puberty, I literally was a freak. Very few people were my size, and fewer people were overweight. So in the last 35 years, what has changed? Are people dumber, lazier, and less motivated than people in the past? Why is this trend only seen in eating/exercise/weight (people are more educated and working more hours and spending more time in "productive" activities than people in the past, and sleeping less also)?

The social, economic, and cultural changes are partially responsible for the fact that 1 in 3 Americans are overweight 1 in 3. Not entirely, but partially.

Thank you, thank you. Kaplods I have long read and respected your contribution, and I support you on your position in this thread as well. But THIS...finally, someone who agrees with me! :D

SOMETHING CHANGED 30-40 years ago. SOMETHING in our world changed, and our bodies are reacting to it. This period of time is nothing from an evolutionary viewpoint, so whatever it is that changed, our bodies haven't had time to change with it and they're coping the best they can. Yes, it is up to me to make "the right choices". Putting that argument aside, the fact still remains that our bodies are responding to stimulus. I refuse to believe that we have all become lazy and complacent. I am not lazy, I am not stupid, I am not unmotivated. I deeply resent the assumption that I am any of these things on the basis of my size and appearance.

Now, it falls to me to figure out what's going on, and deal accordingly. As it falls to each of us. But it's a tremendous disservice to discount that challenge just because some of us, as individuals, have figured it out.

JulieJ08
05-18-2009, 12:31 AM
Society was not responsible for me buying 1/2 gallons of ice cream and treating them as single servings. Society never forced me to shovel M & M's (peanut, of course ;)), down my throat. Nor was it society that made me stop doing those things either. The "good" choices were always available to me. I just chose to ignore them.

Oh, me too. However, many people do not have the upbringing and education to know that the scads of things advertised as healthy are not really very healthy. I think some of the worst stuff out there is the stuff labelled "diet." Yet those are the first things many will choose when trying to get healthier. Many have never been taught to be skeptical when reading a menu and choosing a "salad" because it may nonetheless have 1200 calories. I find it very easy to think these things are so obvious to everyone, but ... they aren't. And besides just plain compassion, footing the bill for their medical costs is also motivation for more truth in advertising, and support for healthier food to have a fighting chance at being chosen.

I thin everything you said is true and important and crucial. But I don't think it goes far enough.

junebug41
05-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Oh, me too. However, many people do not have the upbringing and education to know that the scads of things advertised as healthy are not really very healthy. I think some of the worst stuff out there is the stuff labelled "diet." Yet those are the first things many will choose when trying to get healthier. Many have never been taught to be skeptical when reading a menu and choosing a "salad" because it may nonetheless have 1200 calories. I find it very easy to think these things are so obvious to everyone, but ... they aren't. And besides just plain compassion, footing the bill for their medical costs is also motivation for more truth in advertising, and support for healthier food to have a fighting chance at being chosen.

I thin everything you said is true and important and crucial. But I don't think it goes far enough.

:looks for a dadgum thumbs up emoticon and is coming up empty:

rockinrobin
05-18-2009, 07:28 AM
Oh, me too. However, many people do not have the upbringing and education to know that the scads of things advertised as healthy are not really very healthy. I think some of the worst stuff out there is the stuff labelled "diet." Yet those are the first things many will choose when trying to get healthier. Many have never been taught to be skeptical when reading a menu and choosing a "salad" because it may nonetheless have 1200 calories. I find it very easy to think these things are so obvious to everyone, but ... they aren't. And besides just plain compassion, footing the bill for their medical costs is also motivation for more truth in advertising, and support for healthier food to have a fighting chance at being chosen.

I thin everything you said is true and important and crucial. But I don't think it goes far enough.

You bring up some very valid points.

But not to sound like a broken record, when deciding to lead a healthy lifestyle, one MUST delve further. One must not leave it up to any one or any thing but themselves. And yup - take responsibility for what goes into ones mouth. Leaving nothing for granted - it's just that important.

Once I made the decision to be healthy and became a calorie counter, choosing that method because I knew I needed forced portion control and set limits, a whole new world opened up to me. It's THEN, that very second, that I STARTED doing some detective work and left no stone unturned. Left nothing up to chance. It was my health afterall. It's just too vital to leave it up to anyone else. Thank goodness I don't have to rely on anyone else. As the saying goes, "if you want something done right, do it yourself".

I'm not looking to argue, please believe me. I see your point. I really do. It would be fantastic if "society" made things simpler or more clear or - whatever - but that's just not the case. It is too big and broad a task and society is just not up to it.

This kind of, but not exactly, reminds me of the folks who say, "I don't have time to eat healthy". It falls somewhat into the same category. They're kind of interested in eating/being healthy, but not totally committed. I think interest alone is not enough. Perhaps those are the ones who start out cutting back on portions, "watching" themselves, etc. Head for the "diet" foods and the salads while eating out, without investigating further. Which I personally found not adequate enough to produce long lasting results.

But once you are totally and completely committed to being healthy, once you make it a tippy top priority - that's when REAL change occurs. That's when you educate yourself. That's when you become so dedicated that you seek the answers.

Society - life - is full of many, many choices - and one must therefore choose very, very carefully.

kaplods
05-18-2009, 11:06 AM
I'm only saying that sometimes a person (or at least some people) DO need something outside themselves. Yes deciding and committing yourself to the work are integral components, but they are necessary, but not sufficient for success. A person can do everything they can think of, with every ounce of their willpower, and still not be successful because they haven't thought of something that is contributing to the weight gain. If they don't know they need help, or don't know that outside help is available, where to look for it, or think they don't have access to it; no matter how committed, they could fail.

Some of those factors such as medical factors (like my bc, insulin resistance, and borderline thyroid issues) often do require outside assistance that isn't always available.

Learned helplessness is real. If a person fails often enough, they start to believe (with what feels like certaintly) that they cannot succeed. I've been more persistant than most, because in all other areas of my life, I've been able to succeed tremendously (usually with far, far LESS effort than with weight loss). Trying harder was a trap, not a solution, because I didn't have all the information that I needed.

I've been told so often that I must have been "more committed," this time, or finally been willing to "work harder," but that's not my experience. I'm almost succeeding despite myself, almost trying to prove I think that I really can do this "hardly trying." I'm doing the bare minimum over and above my usual. Taking "progress over perfection," to mean that so long as I am making an improvement, I don't have to work any harder until my progress stalls. It's really been the "lazy way to weight loss."

Some people (even fairly intelligent people) don't know that they need to work smarter, not harder - they rush at that brick wall over, and over, and over again - not knowing that they can succeed, but are on the wrong path.

CountingDown
05-18-2009, 06:36 PM
How interesting this thread is! What wonderful gems it contains.

Obviously, the "right" path is different for each of us. One or more "keys" to successful weight loss/maintenance were outside our reach until our most recent attempts.

Finding all of the keys that are needed to unlock this very special treasure can be daunting. There is no map that will tell you where to look, or even how many keys you will need.

As I read everyone's posts, I do sense one common thread throughout. Everyone tackled their weight loss just as they would any other problem/obstacle in their life. They assessed the situation, made a plan, gathered data, evaluated the results, and continued the cycle.

I do believe that this is one of the main reasons I was able to succeed this time, when I had failed so many times before. Instead of making an emotional decision to lose the weight, I completely removed my emotions from the equation.

I made a decision to commit one year of my life to work on this problem. I amassed the resources I needed to be successful.

Community and support - 3FC, my family and friends
Knowledge - 3FC, books, other websites
Tools to carry out my plan- Healthy foods, recipes, exercise equipment, and DVDs, walking shoes, etc.
Tools to analyze data - Fitday, scales - food and body, tape measure, mirror

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that - no matter how we "name" it - what words we use, those of us that are succeeding actually have more similarities than differences in our approach to weight loss.

We tend to focus on the last key or two that we needed to find, but for most of us - now that we stand with a full ring and compare our keys - there are many commonalities.

My final keys were community and accountability (journaling). Colleen's was finding the right plan. For others, it was personal responsibility. Our journeys look very, very different - but the keys we are using ...

(If you are still reading, :hug: and :cp: I get way too philosophical when I'm home sick and trying to keep my mind occupied)

I'll get off my :soap: now. And thanks to everyone that contributes to this thread! I am enjoying it immensely!

Windchime
05-18-2009, 07:31 PM
A link to an NPR "Fresh Air" segment:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104068820&ft=1&f=1007

Hey, thanks. I heard it on a science show on NPR but I'm sure this is the same interview. Good find!

kaplods
05-18-2009, 08:16 PM
Finding all of the keys that are needed to unlock this very special treasure can be daunting. There is no map that will tell you where to look, or even how many keys you will need.


This is why I think that weight loss research is extremely valuable, even if sometimes (heck, usually, I think) the researchers are asking the wrong questions, at least they're looking. And I think the danger is minimal of some of the research or information providing new excuses (such as the "cold" virus that is associated with weight gain, or the book we're discussing talking about "conditioned hypereating," and the deliberate encouragement of this by the companies that sell us food (and "food-like" substances, which is probably a more accurate discription of some of these products than to call them "food"). Information doesn't MAKE people make excuses. A person wanting an excuse doesn't need a new one, when all or any of the old ones will suffice (or they'll invent a completely new one of their own making - but they would have found an excuse regardless). Excuses don't fall on people though. People find excuses, excuses don't find people. People who aren't going to use an excuse, are going to use the new information appropriately (at worst, saying "huh, that's kind of interesting, but it doesn't apply to me, or it doesn't change what I'm doing). That kind of person is going to read this book, and say "huh, maybe it's a really good idea for me to avoid these kinds of foods, because they're likely to trigger what the author is talking about (I haven't read the book yet, just partial clips from reviews online).
Or a person reading about the "fat virus," may have an extra reason to make sure they and their families use good prevention strategies like proper hand-washing (not a bad decision, whether you're talking about a fat virus, or the swine flu).




As I read everyone's posts, I do sense one common thread throughout. Everyone tackled their weight loss just as they would any other problem/obstacle in their life. They assessed the situation, made a plan, gathered data, evaluated the results, and continued the cycle.



That was another brick wall for me. It was very difficult for me to think and treat weight loss as a skill just like any other, instead of the emotionally-charged, backward way we're taught to think of weight loss. Mostly, we're taught (by seeing, reading, hearing about how "every one else is doing it"), that dieting is someting that you're supposed to be absolutely perfect and best and most dedicated to in the beginning, and then weight loss and other measures of success success and also strict compliance to your food plan will taper off as you progress. However, treating it as just another skill to master, I was a lot less hard on myself when I made mistakes. To do otherwise, is like tripping on a step and deciding you need to throw yourself to the bottom of the staircase. But, the more I treated weight loss just like all of the other wondeful skills I've mastered and all of the accomplishments I've made in my life, the more I succeeded. Also, I found out that I am not "naturally" an emotional or disordered eater. Simply choosing not to make dieting about emotions and morality, combined with refusing to resort to starvation diets (the second half may be actually most important), the disordered emotional eating came to a screeching halt. This actually ties in with a recent study of rats, that found that hungry (on calorie-reduced diets) rats ate in response to stressors of all kinds, but rats that were not on diets, did not. This isn't saying that I believe people don't have more control over their eating than rats, but I think it does show that when you're restricting your calories, you need to know that eating in response to stress may be a natural reaction. That doesn't mean that you use that as an excuse. Not at all, but it does give a person a good reason to be prepared. Knowing that if you're reducing calories, you may be more prone to eat during stress, gives you a "heads up" to ward against doing so. Plan ahead, have strategies planned...

Ufi
09-21-2009, 03:47 PM
Interesting discussion. The idea of a company Pavlov's dogging me is really irritating. Of course, it's the job of marketers to get people to buy their stuff, be it bread or cocaine. But the research he talks about in articles about how the brain responds differently in people who fall into that hyperstimulated category is especially interesting. Not so much a matter of willpower as it is brainpower, training.

Eating is a complex act, and I do think it has a number of biological and psychological factors. For some people, the just do it approach works, while others are helped by understanding the whys and hows.

I think it may be helpful for me to develop a list of dopamine-stimulating ideas and activities to help retrain my brain. Thnk happy (non-food-related) thoughts.

chickiegirl
09-21-2009, 04:41 PM
I was really happy to have read some of the ideas in this book. I haven't finished it, but it was he first thing that introduced me to the possibility that I wasn't just some awful, weak, fat person, but that there were things happening in my body that played a part too.

It doesn't diminish personal responsibility for making bad choices, but I think there is truth that things do happen in your body to make you want more when you eat things like fat an sugar.

Glory87
09-21-2009, 07:11 PM
Hey Chickiegirl - I definitely did better this time around when I realized my body is not the sabotoging enemy I thought it was. My body does what thinks is BEST to keep me alive and healthy - it doesn't understand diets, it thinks "bad harvests." Now, I admire the body's power in making the most outof minimal calories and I work WITH my body, not against it. We're a team :)

Hyacinth
02-12-2011, 02:58 PM
Man! This thread has provided me with some excellent Saturday-morning reading.

I'm about two-thirds through reading "The End of Overeating" and I'm astounded by how many dendrite connections are going on in my head. Fat on fat on salt, conditioned hypereating, the compass deal, all of it. Aha, aha, aha, I am getting it! Rather than seeking out a therapist to get to the bottom of what I assumed MUST be some suppressed emotional issue making me fat, I may just need to look at this with the practicality of a behavioral therapist. Logical, I love it.

Consequently, I was financially strapped the week I'd read this. I ended up having to pay bills and mortgage out of the same paycheck. I had, like, six dollars to get me through two weeks. I work from home, so had no commute expense, and rather than charge groceries (or convenience foods!) I decided to live off of what I already had in my cupboard. Note: my usual pattern is that I eat healthy foods at home, but because of working long hours I often make awful choices in the name of convenience.

I lost FOUR POUNDS without intent, just by cooking foods I had in the pantry. They weren't terribly interesting, but they weren't awful, either: chili with leftover steak, potato-pea curry, oatmeal, peanut-butter toast. I didn't ever go hungry, the foods weren't "diet" foods, and I even had a few random snacks during the week. I didn't have as many fresh vegetables as I like to use, but it was an absolute eye-opener to me that there are many ways to make healthier choices.

While I get that it's all about your own choices and not necessarily the responsibility of the government or food industry, it seems there's a little hoodwinking going on.

If I make a hamburger at home, it's made out of grass-fed beef, and topped with whatever I have on hand (not usually things like onion rings, bacon, cheese, sour cream, or all of the above). I'd be willing to bet that any homemade meal using reasonable cooking means is way healthier than these concocted restaurant meals that have added who-knows-what and prepared in ways not common to the average household kitchen. Then, it is on me, the consumer, to research before going to the restaurant what I am going to eat. That somewhat defeats the purpose of "convenience" food, to me. And this is assuming I win the battle of not being swayed by over-the-top creamy fried-cholesterol goodness on the menu.

Wow, just a great book. Go read it, hopefully it's been out long enough that the library doesn't have a long waiting list for it.

AZ Sunrises
02-12-2011, 03:53 PM
I refuse to blame restaurants and food producers for the width of my posterior. They didn't force-feed me, despite making the food delicious, scrumptious, and somewhat addictive.

I'm an adult. I know what happens when I eat food that isn't healthy for me. I sometimes (used to be frequently) choose to eat it anyway. I am responsible for what I eat--not my government, the restaurants, my parents, or anyone else--me.

The responsibility for the layer of blubber covering my body is lies with the person typing this post. No one made me this way except for me.

ETA: The responsibility for the weight I've lost also lies with me. To give away the responsibility of my starting weight tarnishes part of the accomplishment of achieving the current weight. The loss is solely my responsibility, as well.

DixC Chix
02-12-2011, 08:06 PM
I refuse to blame restaurants and food producers for the width of my posterior. They didn't force-feed me, despite making the food delicious, scrumptious, and somewhat addictive.

Restaurants are responsible for using products like that 'fat juice' and not listing that in the menu. There is no truth in advertising without that info and the government is complicit by not requiring the facts to be revealed. This hush hush truth OR "its in the fine print of a 500 page report' in the food industry should be stopped. Only the government can require the labeling of products as having added hormones, genetic alterations and additives to food products like that fat juice. And it should be in plain language not some chemically enhanced mumbo-jumbo.

I'm an adult. I know what happens when I eat food that isn't healthy for me. I sometimes (used to be frequently) choose to eat it anyway. I am responsible for what I eat--not my government, the restaurants, my parents, or anyone else--me.

I didn't always know that a restaurant hamburger was way higher in fat than the one I make in my kitchen. There are still restaurants that do not post their nutritional info and they never will unless it is required by the govt. They should at the very least be required to post their use of the food enhancers.

The responsibility for the layer of blubber covering my body is lies with the person typing this post. No one made me this way except for me.

True, so true. I will own it all. But I can't get rid of the idea that the use of the fat juice food enhancers and my unknown consumption of it is a little like a drug dealer giving out candy laced with crack. I shudder to think of all the years I have been ignorant of the fat juice. Its not because I am dumb but because I am naive.

ETA: The responsibility for the weight I've lost also lies with me. To give away the responsibility of my starting weight tarnishes part of the accomplishment of achieving the current weight. The loss is solely my responsibility, as well.

Yep, and I have been more successful this time by staying away from known sources fat juice.....It still bugs me...how long was I unknowingly exposed to it? Are there sources of it of which I am unaware?



Its hard enough to change, I shouldn't have to dig to get the information to make an informed decision on what to eat.

kaplods
02-12-2011, 09:21 PM
I refuse to blame restaurants and food producers for the width of my posterior.

Making this about "blame" entirely misses the point the author is making - knowing what's in your food, and knowing why some foods are much easier to overeat than others.

Reading this book has changed the way I look at processed and restaurant food. I haven't cut back on processed food and eating out because it's the restaurant or junk food makers "fault" that I am fat. I cut back on those foods, because reading the book has convinced me that it's much easier to overeat foods that have been designed to be difficult to resist (it's not a "new" invention, the fat/sweet/salt flavor combination has been "addictive" for thousands of years, and humans have manipulated that. It's not "evil" it's just yummy, and people like making yummy food, but when you're trying to lose weight you have to control the yum factor to some degree. You don't have to eat horrible tasting food, but you do have to be wary of foods that are so delicious they'll call to you from the fridge or cupboard).

Learning even in my home cooking to avoid the sugar/salt/fat combination has been an incredibly effective tool. I remind myself that I can have sweet, salty, and fatty foods to some degree, but combining the flavors and textures can be risky business. I've learned to be as respectful of food properties as I am of medications. Knowing the physiological and psychological effects of food, is about taking responsibility, not pushing it off on someone else.

If you actually read the book, it seems clear the author is not villanizing the food industry. In fact he talks about speaking with food industry personal who obviously were not aware of the connection. It's not a consipiracy against the consumer, it's just that making foods cheap and tasty is at odds with making foods healthier. Information, not blame.

Knowledge is power. This book changed my life, because it made me realize that my powerlessness over some foods was more physiological than psychological. Sure shoring up willpower could be effective in the short term, reducing the need for willpower has helped a lot more. I have far more success when I choose not to eat the foods that are most difficult to control.

If I buy a gun and shoot myself, it's not the gunmaker's fault, but if I don't buy a gun, I can't shoot myself. If I'm feeling severely depressed, that isn't the time to buy a gun.

I look at difficult-to-resist food the same way. The risks outweigh the benefits.

I do still sometimes eat those foods, but I almost have to look at it as if I were indulging in a recreational drug (something I never did) or alcohol (which I rarely did). I can choose to get drunk, but I should avoid putting myself in a position in which I would be tempted to drive drunk.

If I'm going to eat a food that is going to trigger hunger, I need to set it up in a way that limits the degree of damage I can do with that hunger.

I'm not going to hurt anyone (but myself) under the influence of a brownie sundae, but protecting myself means not making a batch of brownies and having a half gallon of ice cream in the freezer. Buying one individual cup of icecream at the grocery store makes more sense because it's a way to limit
the damage I can do.

As with other potentially "addictive" substances, some people will choose to abstain all together. Others will choose to use only in specific circumstances.

One of the problems though is that we know alot more about the potential dangers of drugs and alcohol than we do about foods. We don't think of food that way. We probably should, because foods do have drug-like properties. They may be more subtle, but that only means it can be harder to identify and understand them.

This book along with those of Gary Taubes' really helped me understand the power of foods, and why what I eat is as important as how much (even when eating only "healthy" foods).

Hyacinth
02-12-2011, 11:08 PM
Making this about "blame" entirely misses the point the author is making - knowing what's in your food, and knowing why some foods are much easier to overeat than others.

Kaplods, thank you again for a great post. Knowledge IS power. I agree that this book was such an eye opener into human behavior.

Trazey34
02-13-2011, 03:06 AM
meh, the boogeyman of the food industry doesn't float with me. Yes, they want to sell stuff. So do beer companies and fast cars and other stuff that if taken/eaten/driven/used to excess or recklessness can kill us. That's the price of living in a free society. The counterbalance of other, healthier information is more than fair IMO, it's all around us! There's not a magazine or newspaper that doesn't explain healthy eating options, books, TV shows, I'm bombarded with healthy options for living on a seemingly daily basis! But ultimately I"M responsible for me. There's no way I ever thought the crap I ate was healthy LOL or that I was duped into eating it. I KNEW those soft fluffy McCheeseburgers required little to no digestion on my part, they were already nicely smooshy for my ease of eating and enjoyment and I gobble'd 'em up like nobody's business LOL Yes, our brains have been hot-wired to eat fat/salt/sugar since back in the caves, but we've also evolved enough to say NO. No one made me fat but me. No moustache-twirling evil genius pointed a bacon ray-gun at me and blasted on 150 extra pounds, I can't blame anyone else.

DixC Chix
02-13-2011, 11:09 AM
My point is that the overladen food items are not specifically identified as having been 'enhanced'.

So do beer companies and fast cars and other stuff that if taken/eaten/driven/used to excess or recklessness can kill us.

The beer labels have the alcohol content. Fast cars come with a brochure that reveals the potential for high speeds. The information is readily available and easily obtained. Not so with restaurants. All I want is the same for the food industry.

I'm bombarded with healthy options for living on a seemingly daily basis
Yes, we must be on the same mailing lists. :) I would like to have the same bombardment on which restaurant foods are unhealthy and healthy. I would like to make a selection from the menu based on information not on my best guess on whether they used enhancers or not. Did the shrimp (a seemingly healthy option) I had the other night have some enhancement? That info should be readily available.
Let me decide if I want to consume that stuff rather than just using it willy-nilly and keeping it a secret.

Knowledge is power and I don't think there is enough accessible knowledge about restaurant foods. I want to know more.

I am not assigning blame except that restaurants are resistant to revealing the information.

Trazey34
02-14-2011, 12:14 AM
Well, i've lost over 150 pounds by eating out at least once per week. I asked how things were prepared, if the waiter didn't know I got something else, usually a piece of steak and some salad. I can taste something and just KNOW it's got butter or some kind of yum added to it.

I mean, even if you think it's better to eat at home -- but wait, our TOMATOES are altered on a genetic level to not rot so fast, our milk has crap in it to keep it from going off so fast, there's danger behind every door.

I simply cringe at the idea of my old 300 plus pound self saying "it's the restaurant's fault i'm fat", the stereotypical fat girl trying to blame being double the size she's supposed to on someone else, it's too humiliating and makes me feel like I'm not taking responsibility for my own life and welfare. I just naturally ASSUME that food in a restaurant is made to taste as good as possible - which means extra salt and butter and anything else they can throw at it. So I suppose what I'm saying is that this book/ideas are no revelation to me, it's kind of a "WELL DUH" what did you think was going on? That's why i always pick the food that can't be messed with much.

DixC Chix
02-14-2011, 10:37 AM
My formative years were during the 60's and early 70's - a time of family -owned stores - bakery, butcher, corner pharmacy and Mom & Pop restaurants. I remember the short order cook used to splash water out of a glass onto the grill to create steam to melt the cheese for a burger - not that yellow greasy stuff they use now. They fed a real potato thru a slicer to make the strips to put in the fryer. There was no corporate sponsored research on how to make everything taste like 'more'. It was a simpler time.

I just naturally ASSUME that food in a restaurant is made to taste as good as possible - which means extra salt and butter and anything else they can throw at it. So I suppose what I'm saying is that this book/ideas are no revelation to me, it's kind of a "WELL DUH" what did you think was going on? I just naturally ASSUMED that food in restaurants was still wholesome - until there was a published report on what was going on.

And that's the problem - we both have had to make ASSUMPTIONS. I just want to KNOW.

If restaurant A lists a shrimp dish as 400 cal and 10 g of fat, and restaurant B lists a shrimp dish that is 350 cal and 7g of fat, I can figure they both added crap because my similar shrimp dish at home doesn't have that many cals and fat. But I can also decided to patronize the restaurant that offers the lower cal/fat dish. I can make an informed decision on which restaurant gets my business and my money.

Knowledge is power but money talks!

I simply cringe at the idea of my old 300 plus pound self saying "it's the restaurant's fault i'm fat"

You do get that this is not what I am saying, right?

kaplods
02-14-2011, 03:59 PM
I don't see anyone (not even he author) saying that restaurants are to blame for obesity, so I'm a little stumped why that keeps coming up as an argument against the book.

As a nation, we do eat out more than ever before, and that isn't likely to change overnight (if at all). Learning what's in your food and why, shouldn't be seen as a fool's errand.

The author isn't saying "it's the restaurant's fault you're fat," and he isn't saying "never eat out," or "never eat yummy food," instead he's warning against unconscious eating - eating without realizing why you're eating. He warns against flavor and texture combinations that are so difficult to resist (not impossible, but difficult), that it may be worth avoiding altogether, or eating in circumstances that make overindulgence more difficult.

Reading the book, I never once thought "damned those restaurants, I should sue them for making me fat, it's all their fault."

I did think "Oh, this is why I always eat more than I intend to of certain foods." And those certain foods weren't all restaurant foods. One of my worst food adversaries is almond or butter toffee (what's under the chocolate of a Heath or Skor bar). The chocolate doesn't really add that much for me, so I often made my own at home - the ingredients - butter and brown sugar that's it.

I would never eat a stick of butter or a pound of brown sugar, but put the two together, boil for a while and cool on buttered foil to make a crunchy candy that melts in your mouth yet is also soft enough to chew without pulling out fillings, and I've got kriptonite.

I'm not fat because of butter toffee, but I am fat because of the cumulative effects of all of my kriptonite food. I didn't realize that I was making my battle with fat more difficult to win by assuming "a calorie is a calorie," taking that to mean that I could and should eat anything I want as long as I stop at 1500 calories (not realizing that in itself was the problem, with certain foods I find it nearly impossible to stop at any calorie limit. Changing the flavor profile, changes my ability to resist overeating).

It isn't about blaming anyone, it's about learning to recognize foods that are difficult to resist. It isn't even about always resisting them, it's about learning how to recognize properties in food that make resistance more difficult.

If I do have butter toffee now, I buy one piece at a candy store (the really good stuff). I don't buy half a dozen Heath Bars and toss them in the freezer (because if I do, they'll be gone in three or four days - or if it's PMS/TOM they'll be gone in one or two).

It's "common sense" only after you've learned it. I've always known that some foods are "trigger foods" for me, but I never really understood what all those trigger foods had in common. What did butter toffee and General Tso's chicken have in common? (turns out - salt/fat/sugar).

With more than 35 years of dieting under my belt, I should have made the connection, but I didn't. Seeing the research made me realize not only that the combination was kriptonite, it helped me recognize it in foods I haven't tried yet. I have a predictive tool, not only in restaurants, but also at the grocery store and at my own stove as well.

I don't get why anyone is making this about "blame the restaurant" or "blame Big Food."

It's not about blame, it's about knowledge. If you know what's in your food, and why, you can make better choices at the grocery store and the take out window.

Rarr777
02-14-2011, 04:21 PM
Thanks for the link!