General chatter - Sorry if I offend!




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raw23
10-10-2008, 10:48 AM
I really hate to ask this question, but it's something that's been bothering me for a while and I know you ladies are so very, very wise. :)
It seems like marriages all around me are failing. My main confusion is with the marriages that have lasted for 15, 20, 30 or more years. Spouces are asking "out of the blue" for a divorce. This worries me. I'm worried for my future and for those around me. It's very troubling. What causes someone, after many years of love and building a life together, to just want to leave it all? I dont want to be sitting in my rocking chair at 50 and have my best friend ask me for a divorce for "no aparent reason." I would be crushed. Now, even though many divorced spouces say "out of the blue" and "no aparent reason," I know people don't leave happiness for the unknown. I know there has to be a reason. Maybe they've been fake happy and hiding it? Maybe they were waiting for the kids to grow up? Midlife crisis? I just dont know. Anyone care to enlighten me?
I'm sure some of you are going through this right now and I dont mean to stir up any ill feelings or pain. I'm sorry if I caused this. If you have been through this, do you regret the marriage? If you could go back and not marry, would you?
Thanks for the help!


nelie
10-10-2008, 10:52 AM
I know quite a few people who weren't happy in their marriages and wanted to wait until their kids were a certain age before they got a divorce.

etherence
10-10-2008, 10:55 AM
I have to agree with Rebecca. My boyfriend and I are to be engaged soon and I worry about the same thing she posted. Any advice for a 28 year old?


PhotoChick
10-10-2008, 10:56 AM
Rebecca,

I'll do my best to answer honestly w/out giving away too many personal details. My husband and I have been married for 10 years. (In fact we celebrated ? our 10th anniversary this past week. *wry grin*)

I can promise you that there is no "out of the blue" or "no apparent reason" for us. For those outside our marriage - even our close friends - it was a shock, yes. And they all wanted to know "what happened - you guys were the perfect couple".

And even for us, we still love each other. We still live together (although as roommates, not as husband and wife). We are having a hard time moving forward with the divorce part because we're good friends and we care. But we are not going to be "married" in the true sense ever again. It's just a matter of one or the other of us making the choice to move on first. And right now neither of us wants to deal with that pain.

But things build up. Things happen. Communication erodes. One person changes and moves a different direction and the other person can't/won't go the same way.

Anyone who says "out of the blue" about their marriage falling apart is (IMO) in denial. Even my husband admits this; he has told me before that he fooled himself into thinking everything would be ok if we just went on the way we were, but deep inside he knew it was just a matter of time before I said "enough".

It's different for everyone. But no one - NO ONE - can know what goes on inside a relationship except the two people involved.

.

junebug41
10-10-2008, 11:03 AM
Maybe they were waiting for the kids to grow up? Midlife crisis?

I'm 26 and since I graduated high school, several of my friend's parents have divorced. I'm sure none of them were "just out of the blue", and I know with a few of them they had known fow many years that once the kids were gone, so were they.

ddc
10-10-2008, 11:09 AM
There's no reason to live in fear of something that might or might not happen.
My recent philosophy on this is: if someone else wants him or he wants someone else, so be it.
Alot of people "think" it's better with someone else and then they find out that it really isn't.
I really don't care either way. I don't plan on divorcing my husband, but I sometimes wish I'd never married him.
Oh BTW, we dated for 8 yrs before we got married and have been married for 15 yrs.
One thing I've learned, no matter how much you think you know someone, you really don't (at least that's my experience).

raw23
10-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Photo - thanks for your open and honest response. I'm sorry your going through this. I do agree that anyone who says it's out of the blue is in denial (or the other person must be really good at hiding pain and resentment). Your post did clarify some things. Like, communication; it's so important to keep the communication lines flowing and to be honest with your partner.
And, in my relationship it's just me and him and I'll probably see the end coming, if it does. And, we will both change throughout our lives but it's important to accept (or at least tolerate) those changes and love the person despite it. Well, I know you didn't actually say all that... guess I read between the lines. :)

It's not like I'm "living in fear." :lol: I'm just approaching a crossroads and in the back of my mind I'm thinking "is this going to be forever or will it be like such and such who seemed so happy but divorced after all those years?" And just trying to make sence of it all.

I mean... Gosh, you know, it was almost a rule: if you made it past the 7 year itch you were gold. But now... oy.

Slashnl
10-10-2008, 12:05 PM
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I've been married for 21 years.

When you are new in your relationship or marriage, it is really hard to imagine that you will feel anything other than the deep love and happiness that you feel at that moment. The passion is strong and the connection is strong.

But, time takes its toll on those feelings and passions. You start a family and kids take a lot of your time. While it is all good, there isn't as much time to be just a couple. Your energy is spent on taking care of kids, working outside of the home, working inside the home, and just trying to get everything done. It is just a natural thing, but some people look at it as no longer being in love or that something is horribly wrong. But, it doesn't have to be that way. You have to plan to be that couple, go on dates, get a babysitter, or just spend a little time together. Honestly, my husband and I struggled a lot about 5-6 years ago. Now, we are more settled. I think when we finally sat down and talked, we realized that the other person was trying to do the best that they could, but there is just so little time.

It doesn't always work out for everyone because people change and feelings change. But, to stay together does take a lot of work.

All of that said... I wouldn't worry about it because you'll miss the really good time you're having right now. You have to meet whatever challenges come... when they come.

EZMONEY
10-10-2008, 12:15 PM
I could go on and on and on...on this subject....I won't bore you.

I will tell you though that as long as one person in the marraige allows divorce to be an option....you will probably end up there at some point.

raw23
10-10-2008, 12:21 PM
I could go on and on and on...on this subject....I won't bore you.

I'd like to hear what you have to say :) From your posts you seem to be very successful at this marriage thing. ;)

junebug41
10-10-2008, 12:23 PM
I could go on and on and on...on this subject....I won't bore you.

I will tell you though that as long as one person in the marraige allows divorce to be an option....you will probably end up there at some point.

The more I dig back into my parent's marriage and the more I learn about myself and marriage in general, the more I agree with this, for better or worse.

nelie
10-10-2008, 12:36 PM
I have never been married so maybe I have no right to answer this but I will anyway(hmm maybe being opinionated is why I have never had a real relationship)! I do not believe in marriage. Being married is to me like only allowing yourself one friend.

I actually don't see a problem with that... If I only had one friend, it wouldn't bother me.

Now of course it wasn't a marriage but I had a friend of 20 years. We broke apart. The reasoning I see it is I changed and grew my life in a different direction and she had difficulties with that.

The person I am today is not the same person I was when I started dating my husband. He has also changed. I think you are able to grow together as you grow older and you do have to accept the changes your partner may go through and know that they will accept the changes you go through. I know we've only been married for 2 years but my husband and I talk every day, we hug every day and we talk about various things that each of us would like to accomplish in the future. I don't expect my husband to be the same man in 5 years that he is today and I don't think he would expect the same of me.

I also told my husband that when we got married that there was no way out of this, he is stuck. :) I do believe that if we have issues in the future, that we will work them out.

KLK
10-10-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm getting married in 75 hours (exactly lol), and while there's always a possibility of divorce, I'm not going to worry about it. I plan to be the best wife I can be, in any given situation, to be loyal and honest and make any decisions with my husband's best interests at heart (as well as my own...). That's all anyone CAN DO, imo, in a marriage. But even doing that, there's never a 100% guarantee that a marriage will last forever...but at least I would know I did my best and gave it everything I had.

zenor77
10-10-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm watching several friends go through this right now and it is heart breaking. Many of them are really trying to work things out with counseling too. I don't think any divorce is "out of the blue". I just think people are private about things of this nature and don't go telling everyone about the problems they are having.

I think a lot of people don't view marriage and love the way people used to. Divorce is much more socially acceptable then it used to be. IMO some people fail to realize that love isn't just about butterflies and feelings it's about a mutual commitment to each other.

DH and I talked a lot before we got married about the possibility of couples counseling if we hit a rough spot. We are both committed to working through things and not giving up. I'm very careful about communicating things on a daily basis. I think communication is key. I also think that once we have kids, I'd like to instate a "date night" without children. I think couple time is very important. I think it'd make us better parents too.

Also remember, that for every marriage that fails, there is one that lasts. There's always a positive side to everything. Try to look to those couples to see what they are doing differently.

My parents were still married until they passed and my in-laws are still married. Have times always been wonderful for them? No, but they worked through things. Marriage is hard work, but it's rewarding.

EDIT: I also wanted to say that growing in separate areas doesn't always mean growing apart. Dh and I have interests that the other doesn't share and I encourage this. We both need time away from the other. Yes, we take an interest in hearing about these interests, but we don't necessarily want to join in. I think a healthy marriage is one that gives both parties the freedom to be themselves.

lizziep
10-10-2008, 01:56 PM
speaking just from my personal experience- here's what I know.

I am very unhappy. My husband doesn't let me talk/won't listen to any problems. He refuses marriage counseling. If and or when I leave him- he will think it is out of the blue- even though I've tried to get through to him many times.

Sometimes a person is unhappy for a very long time and doesn't say anything out of fear or whatever their reasoning may be and finally they come to a breaking point and they just can't do it anymore.

nelie
10-10-2008, 03:29 PM
Lizzie - I know you say your husband won't talk or listen but...

Have you said anything to him like "I'm very unhappy, if things don't change, I can see our marriage coming to an end"? or "I don't want it to happen but I'd like to fix the direction our marriage is going before it gets to the point of divorce"

I know some people think that they and others can live forever in an unhappy situation and nothing will change. Maybe if he understood that things NEED to change, then maybe that would help?

Hat Trick
10-10-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm with Slashnl and EZ on this. Life takes it tolls and can change people but if both are commited to it for the long haul, things don't need to end in divorce. Just my take on it.

Then again maybe, for some, being shorter of breath and one day closer to death makes that grass on the other side seem awfully green . . .

Hattie22
10-10-2008, 05:37 PM
I have been married to my husband and best friend for 27 years. We had some hard times early in our marriage. We worked through it. Most of it was from crap that we brought with us from our families' dysfunction. We have grown together but not the same. Communication is key! I can't remember the last fight we had. It was so long ago. We may not agree on every little thing but we respect each other enough to not let that get in our way. I try to encourage him and he encourages me. He has never been negative about my weight. Only I have been. He is one of those people that will always be slim. I think that we are true partners. We treat each other as that. We talk a lot and we are now at that point that we say the same things and think more alike. I do feel that he is my soul mate and can't imagine going through life without him. I think we try hard to meet each others needs even if we might not agree with them. BTW... he is not a deep thinker and I am. I have learned to know that about him and he has learned to listen. I have to say, over the years he has become more of a deep thinker. Marriage is hard work and the most rewarding relationship I have ever had. We have two grown children..24 and 22. We love them more than words can say. We always kept in mind that the family started with us. We are important as a couple as well as a mom and dad.

I just had to express how I feel about marriage.

PhotoChick
10-10-2008, 06:09 PM
One can be committed and realize that it simply isn't going to work out. That doesn't mean that we wanted what happened or that we're happy about it.

.

joyra
10-10-2008, 06:15 PM
My parents just got a divorce after 25 years of marriage. It seemed "out of the blue" especially since their roughest times were years earlier but I think my dad had met someone else. He was remarried two years after he left my mom. The reason he gave for leaving was "I'm getting older and there's things I want to do before I die." My mom was very upset because she's like, well, I would've been supportive!

Truthfully, I'm sure he brought up things he wanted to do and my mom blew them off. He was passive and my mom was dominant and aggressive--very critical too. He is very happy with his new wife and they have so much in common and my dad is a changed (for the better) person. My mom is still suffering--she was religious and figured a so-so marriage was her lot in life... she is struggling to see anything positive out of the divorce.

My aunt and uncle are near divorce too. They had what seemed to be a great match... just great partners. But my uncle had a lot of bad things happen to him, physically, emotionally, financially and he started drinking a lot. Had to go to rehab. They had to sell their house for him to go. And he came back with promises and broke them within days.

That's just two examples of long term marriages that ended. Many friends are also having their parents divorce or near divorce.

I really think kids, for better or worse, bind people. When the kids are gone, it seems people think "Ok, I have half my life left or less... am I happy?" Even my aunt, who when faced with a situation that's definitely "for worse," realizing it may never get better, probably thought "I don't want to live the rest of my life like this."

I'm not married but I am in a serious relationship that has no foreseeable plans of marriage. Sometimes I wish I was married so I could have the stability of a commitment like that. Other times I never want to marry because I see too many people "stuck" in situations that probably won't improve.

Anyways, I think I've stopped viewing successful relationships as being a good husband/wife/gf/bf, but rather as having PARTNERS. The most ideal relationships I've seen, both people work together almost like a business situation. Isn't business people working together to achieve a goal/profit/something positive? I've seen marriages with a good wife, or a good husband, but that's just not enough. When the kids grow up and leave, 'what do I want to do with the rest of my life' is only half the equation... how can we achieve it is what's important. If we can't, or there is no we, then I think that's where people are heading for the door.

CountingDown
10-10-2008, 06:27 PM
I agree with a lot that has been said. For the record, we will celebrate our 30th anniversary in Dec.

It doesn't happen out of the blue. Little things along the way add up. You can choose to ignore them, or you can deal with them. But, like pebbles in a jar, they do add up to a significant mass.

It takes dedication, hard work, and ATTENTION to make a marriage work. You must give it the time and energy it deserves. ANYTHING you neglect will wither away.

Many of my friend's marriages that have resulted in divorce are because the two parties have grown apart - not together. When life happens, particularly children - there are many, many demands on our time. It takes a conscious effort to make the marriage a priority. But, it must be done.

When the children leave home, you then realize you are living with either - your best friend - someone you are delighted to finally spend more time with or - a stranger - someone that you have grown apart from, gradually over the years. It is those in the latter category that usually divorce.

EZ is right on the "money: ;) with this one - if divorce is an option in the back of your mind - when life throws challenges at you, particularly if your spouse is the reason for those challenges - you will likely separate. If you truly believe that marriage is a life-long committment - that the two DO become one - then - you will most likely work through whatever the problems are.

For me, we have grown together over the years. We do most things together and enjoy each other's company above anyone else's. It is a joy to be with my DH - and we have fun together. We envision a future together, we make plans and talk about what we want to do in retirement.

Bottom line - a million choices made over the course of the marriage determine how it will end. Much like gaining weight - each choice we make has a consequence - and over the course of many years, those consequences make us who we are - hopefully - a healthier, stronger, kinder, wiser person.

Off :soap:
;)

PhotoChick
10-10-2008, 06:37 PM
EZ is right on the "money: with this one - if divorce is an option in the back of your mind - when life throws challenges at you, particularly if your spouse is the reason for those challenges - you will likely separate. If you truly believe that marriage is a life-long committment - that the two DO become one - then - you will most likely work through whatever the problems are.
Not only do I disagree with ths, it's a HUGE slap in the face to those of us who were totally committed to our marriage and never entertained the thought of divorce (in fact we agreed early on that even joking about divorce was not something we wanted to have in our home) and wound up divorcing anyway.

The judgement and blame assayed in this attitude is hurtful and uncalled for, IMO.

Until you've walked in someone else's shoes - or someone else's marriage, then you have no understanding at all.

.

EZMONEY
10-10-2008, 11:07 PM
Not only do I disagree with ths, it's a HUGE slap in the face to those of us who were totally committed to our marriage and never entertained the thought of divorce (in fact we agreed early on that even joking about divorce was not something we wanted to have in our home) and wound up divorcing anyway.

The judgement and blame assayed in this attitude is hurtful and uncalled for, IMO.

Until you've walked in someone else's shoes - or someone else's marriage, then you have no understanding at all.

.

You have every right to disagree with this PHOTOCHICK but to refresh what I said..."As long as divorce is an optionfor one or both people in the marraige, you will probably end up there."

There is NO WAY COUNTINGDOWN was placing judgement on anyone. She simply agreed with what I said. In any situation where a couple divorced at least one allowed it to be an OPTION.

It was an option for my first wife...not for me...it is NOT AN OPTION for Angie and I. I or Counting had no intention of pointing fingers at anyone.

JulieJ08
10-10-2008, 11:20 PM
You both said probably. Neither of you implied that all marriages could or should be saved.

bargoo
10-11-2008, 12:20 AM
I don't think people ask for a divorce, you do not need your spouse's permission to get a divorce. I married someone that I trusted with my life. I expected to be married to him for the rest of my life or his. Of all the people I met in my entire life he is the last person I would expect to lie to me.But he did lie and cheat, I couldn't live with someone who betrayed me. It was a long painful time before a divorce happened. I have had opportunities to remarry but I will not go through another divorce. If I couldn't trust the man I married I for darn sure can't trust anyone else. Before a divorce happened in my life I thought people got divorced because they wanted to.It just doesn't work that way,

lizziep
10-11-2008, 12:47 AM
Lizzie - I know you say your husband won't talk or listen but...

Have you said anything to him like "I'm very unhappy, if things don't change, I can see our marriage coming to an end"? or "I don't want it to happen but I'd like to fix the direction our marriage is going before it gets to the point of divorce"

I know some people think that they and others can live forever in an unhappy situation and nothing will change. Maybe if he understood that things NEED to change, then maybe that would help?

i actually have tried these things. it just isn't getting through to him and i'm pretty sure it won't. but - he may surprise me... we'll see.

jimaterry
10-11-2008, 12:51 AM
i have a 22 year old daughter and a 24 year old son.. i love them both unconditionally.. there is NOTHING they could do to change that... they have both done things to me in their teens that if it were anyone else i would have walked out of their lives.. but they are my kids.. NOTHING would make me walk or stop loving them...

my husband and i love each other unconditionally as well...divorce is NOT an option for us.. i may not love EVERYthing he does.. but i love HIM...marriage has become a disposable commodity and its sad.. in fact 'familys' have become disposable as well ....... its become imho a me me me generation.. IM not happy, IM not fulfilled, IM not getting what i need..

i dont think divorce comes out of the blue too often... if my husband is sad, i know it.. if he is sick, i can tell.. if he is angry i know it.. he doesnt have to tell me, i just know HIM.. so that being said, if he was pulling away..getting distant, im sure i would see the signs.. and i would try to nip whatever was going on in the bud..i would fight for him and our marriage just like i would fight for my children.. there is always the chance i might not succeed, but i would give it my best..

GatorgalstuckinGA
10-11-2008, 07:50 AM
i am still newly married (2.5 yrs) so i don't have a lot to offer but this. I think people do change as they get older...but if you don't work thr that, then the marriage will fail. my parents just celebrated their 40 yr anniversary this summer. And they are happier then they were when they first got married. But for them, divorce WAS Not an option due to their beliefs and up bringing. But what i will tell you is they did go thr a rough part (it wasn't always a perfect marriage). They did argue a lot. And then they found counseling (everyone find something that works). They went thr a program called marriage encounter. And they learned how to love each other again...and talk, work things out. But it definately take two to do this. So if one person isn't willing, it won't work. they both were willing to do whatever to save their marriage. And now they have. And like i stated, they are very very happy. Its not just a long term misery marriage. So hopefully that helps you. I say don't freak out about, but make sure you and DH are always talking and trying to grow as a couple. Good luck!

CountingDown
10-11-2008, 09:53 AM
The judgement and blame assayed in this attitude is hurtful and uncalled for, IMO.

Until you've walked in someone else's shoes - or someone else's marriage, then you have no understanding at all.

.

PhotoChick - there is no judgment or blame in my comment, really - only an observation. Not all marriages can be saved, and there are some times where divorce is the best and even only - option. But I do believe that it comes into play way too often, when a marriage could be saved. I feel strongly about this because of my own family history.

I grew up in an abusive family, where my parents divorced when my youngest brother was only a few weeks old. It was the right decision for my parents. It was the right decision for our family. But, the effect divorce has on a family, particularly when there are children involved, is significant.

Because of my family history, I became a counselor. I have worked with many abuse and neglect and addiction situations over the years. Thus, I would never judge or blame anyone for their decision or their circumstances. The decision to end a marriage is one that should be made by the family alone, hopefully with as much help and support as they can find along the way.

JayEll
10-11-2008, 11:54 AM
I agree with CountingDown that in some cases, divorce is the best option. It's just too simple to say, Oh, if it's not an option, then people will stay married.

For example, if a woman discovers that her husband has been sexually abusing the children, why would she not consider divorce, even if she had been fully committed to the marriage?

To raw23: There is simply no guarantee about anything. You may or may not stay married until one of you dies. People do decide to go their separate ways, and when they do, it's not necessarily because of a failing on anyone's part.

Jay

EZMONEY
10-11-2008, 01:21 PM
I see I might have created a problem here....what's new :lol:...with what I said. If I knew it was going to come up I would have explained further.

As most of you know I was divorced and so was Angie when we met. Divorce was not my choice, it was her choice in her first marriage. Details are not important for this thread topic.

I will try and explain better my view ~

As much as I did not want a divorce from my first wife, I thank God daily for Angie.

Angie and I are Christians and, through maturity in our Lord, we understand better that God will do as He promises and restore all things broken. We know that by looking to Him daily for guidance and :listen: listening to what He is telling us through His WORD we will survive all "issues" in our marriage. I will say we have had a few....though ones....with my step-daughter.

We believe that the Bible does give us grounds for divorce...but we also know that if we both look to our Lord first, on a daily basis, we will not fall into those situations.

The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ;)...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige. Again I stress, it only takes ONE person to want one....if the other person does there is usually nothing you can do about it.

I will admit that 19 years ago....OMGoodness! has it been that long?...wow!!...anyway....as much as I didn't want a divorce I will tell you I wanted my marriage saved for ME...little 'ol ME!!!...although I was a church attending Christian I know that I didn't "rest" in God's WORD and allow Him to work it out for my good. I held on tight, saying it was what God wanted...which it was...but it was not what my-ex wanted....I learned my lesson...still learning everyday in His WORD....I often say if I knew how good my life was going to be after my ex left I would have helped her pack her bags :)

All joking aside, it was a tough time in my life...well past that now and most know that my ex and I are great friends...actually will see each other most of the week-end for different family activities...as usual.

As usual I have rambled on and on and probably :?: confused everyone even more...some things never change :lol:

PhotoChick
10-11-2008, 01:27 PM
The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige.Which is ... IMO... ONLY in my opinon ... hurtful and dismissive of those of us who have done everything to save their marriage - ON BOTH SIDES - and simply cannot.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to say I find your opinion to be hurtful and cruel.

.

EZMONEY
10-11-2008, 01:37 PM
Which is ... IMO... ONLY in my opinon ... hurtful and dismissive of those of us who have done everything to save their marriage - ON BOTH SIDES - and simply cannot.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to say I find your opinion to be hurtful and cruel.

.

PHOTOCHICK ~ I am so confused as to how you see what I am posting is hurtful or accusing. I apologize...sincerely! And I will suggest we move past this :hug:

JayEll
10-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Since EZMONEY has opened the topic of describing religious views of marriage, let me offer a different perspective.

In Buddhism, there is no "creator god," and there is also no "original sin" that is associated with sexual knowledge or behavior. That being the case, you can see that it's a rather different starting point. Nevertheless, Buddhism has a precept against sexual misconduct, which means exploitive sex, forced sex, and/or nonconsensual sex.

"Buddhism generally takes the attitude that sex between two people who love each other is moral, whether they are married or not. On the other hand, sex within marriages can be abusive, and marriage doesn't make that abuse moral." --Barbara O'Brien, About.com.

In Buddhism a set "marriage ceremony" doesn't really exist, although some sects do have the equivalent of a "union blessing ceremony." Again, one is not being married "in the eyes of God." From this point of view, marriage is an agreement and legal contract, depending on the culture one lives in. And with any agreement, sometimes things change.

For what it's worth!
Jay

EZMONEY
10-11-2008, 02:51 PM
My dear friend JAY ~ I was not in any way trying to make a religious or a moral statement. I wanted to share HOW Angie and I stay away from divorce....by stating that WE know that our Savior is the thread that holds us together and as long as we...the both of us/B] look to His [B]WORD then we know that our marriage will always be saved.

And I know it is a religious statement...but it is who I am...not trying to preach to anyone...just sharing a little bit about me :hug:

JayEll
10-11-2008, 05:03 PM
No problem, Gary. However, the discussion seemed to wander a bit. I think it's true that if someone enters a marriage with the idea that "Oh well, if it doesn't work out, I can always get a divorce," maybe they shouldn't be getting married in the first place. :chin: But I'd guess most people go into a marriage thinking that it's for the long term.

Gary, you have shared that what keeps you and Angie from thinking of divorce is that you have Jesus in your marriage. I posted what I did simply to point out that one does not have to have Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, or any other deity involved in order to have a long-term, solid, committed marriage.

I do think that a couple needs to have a mutual understanding of shared spiritual, or if that word doesn't work, ethical values, such as honesty, fairness, and respect for the rights and feelings of each other. But even then, feelings do change. That doesn't mean divorce is the answer, of course--but sometimes, for some people, it is.

Jay

luvin2lose
10-11-2008, 06:32 PM
Well, ya'll hit a nerve with me today.

I am in a troubled marriage. I could bore you with all the gorey details, but I do not think there is enough room on this server for all that garbage. :lol:

I too am a Christian and believe that marriage is for life.....well, at first I wanted my marriage to work out because my mom was so against it and hers didn't work out, but I digress. I do have "biblical" reasons to get a divorce, but I am going to try one more thing to save my marriage. And trust me, I am tired of being the one to initiate all the change in this marriage.

I recently saw a movie called "Fireproof" with Kirk Cameron. This is a Christian based movie and may not appeal to those who are non-believers, but the concept of this book is basic. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails 1 Corinthians 13:4-13

With that said I have taken the "LOVE DARE". Will this save my marriage? I have no idea. Basically, I am going into this with not alot of hope, but with an open mind.

So, bottom line....Marriage is work, whether or not you want it to be or not. Communication is definately key, but difficult if the other person does not want or know how to open up.

CountingDown
10-11-2008, 08:51 PM
luvin2lose - you and your husband are in my prayers! I pray that WHATEVER happens, you will find peace.

brandnewme
10-11-2008, 10:18 PM
There are times when divorce is the only healthy option. I know I didn't get married with the expectation that I would be divorced within 5 years. I worked very hard to make our marriage work, but as you all know, it takes two people - it wasn't very important to him.

I was cheated on, lied to, financially messed up, etc and I found myself hating life, but even then I still tried counseling and everything else I could think of to make it work. He eventually ended up leaving, and for that, I am thankful. I don't know that I would have had the strength to say enough is enough, and the path I was on was speeding towards destruction.

There's no real formula for a successful marriage because there are just so many variables. I think the most important things are communication, honesty, willingness to keep trying, and acting in the best interests of both people. If you have the basic foundation set, you're a step ahead of most.

Edited to also say that sometimes love is not enough. It doesn't matter what you or your spouse does, there are some things you just can't "fix". And, as said by many, divorce is never out of the blue - one or both people knew it was coming long before it got to that point.

Mom2QJandT
10-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Such a topic...

I'm divorced, was married for about 8 years before we separated. I didn't get married thinking that I would get divorced. I spent a lot of time thinking that I was trapped in my marriage and in my situation and that divorce was not an option because "I won't do that to my kids".

I did get married thinking that he would grow with me and that didn't happen. All of the resentment he harbored built up and turned into ugly verbal assaults. My divorce was the best thing for me and also for my children. If I had stayed in that situation it would have taught my boys that it is ok to treat their wives/girlfriends/significant others that way and, more importantly to me, it would have taught my daughter that being treated badly is ok. What is odd is that he was the one that was so adament that he married so poorly with me, but he didn't want our divorce when it came down to it.

My ex is remarried and seems very happy. He treats her wonderfully (as far as I can tell) and I think that he learned a lot about what he needed and how to treat someone from our divorce. We are friendly, sit together at the kids' events, talk on the phone about their stuff, etc... I am not remarried, but have been dating a wonderful man for a couple of years and have learned to trust again and I do hope that one day I'll be married again. My kids are happy, well behaved, well mannered, and well loved kids. They are all good students and are well-adjusted. I think that had I stayed in my marriage and let them grow up in a tense, angry enviroment, this would not be the case.

My divorce was not out of the blue to me, but, in a lot of ways, it was to him. He thought I would stay there no matter what and he pushed that until I couldn't do it anymore. Very few people knew that we had such huge issues behind closed doors, so I assume it was out of the blue to many of our family and friends as well. You don't go around announcing to people that your husband tells you daily that you are the biggest mistake that he ever made.

I'm not sure what my point is, but I guess that I just wanted people to not look at the black/white of divorce is good/bad. Sometimes it is the only option for everyone involved to maintain positive mental health.

lizziep
10-12-2008, 01:41 PM
I really think that pre-marriage counseling should be required. I think at least for a lot of people who get married very young like i did- they don't have a clue what it's going to be like. I didn't know what it'd be like living on my own, much less being married. And then you start to grow up- your opinions, beliefs, life experience - everything changes you and makes you into the person you're going to be. Late teens and twenties are probably not the best times to tie yourself to any commitment that is longer then- a semester at college. lol.

I had no idea when I was 19 that I'd change my mind and decide I want children - and he wouldn't. I had no idea that I'd never go to college because he thinks it's a waste of time/money. I didn't know that I'd live in a house where I come home, cook and clean for someone who doesn't appreciate it then go hide in my room and read until it's time to go to bed. I didn't know that I'd be made to feel like i'm the dumbest person on earth every single day, or have fights with the person i'm supposed to love above all others every single day. If I'd known these things- I'd probably made a different decision when I was 19.
People make mistakes. I didn't get married thinking - well if it doesn't work out I'll just divorce the jerk. I got married thinking that I was getting a life partner. Sometimes you get something other then what you were expecting. At least for me since I'm still married and struggling a lot- the question I've been asking myself and have been unable to answer and I have to assume that a lot of other women and men in marriages have asked themselves this question too... How much of myself am I willing to sacrifice to this?

kaplods
10-12-2008, 05:01 PM
There are thousands of reasons marriages fail, and I don't believe there are any simple explanations to why it happens, when it happens, and whether or not it was preventable. There are no general answers only specific ones to specific marriages.

I do think there are marriages that do stay intact only because neither partner would consider a divorce, whether their reasons are religion, children, control, fear, or stubbornness. So refusing to consider divorce is an option (not necessarily a good option in many cases, but it is an option).

In a very real way, a divorce can only happen when someone in the marriage does see it as an option. Whether they went into the marriage with that option in mind is an entirely different issue. But seeing divorce as an option isn't necessarily a terrible thing. We see women die (and less often, men though it too happens) at the hands of a spouse because they didn't consider leaving an option even in a toxic, abusive relationship.

There are people who wait too long to leave, and people who leave too soon. Although the judgement as to which is which is not necessarily appropriate for anyone on the outside to judge.

It does seem in this modern world, that many people don't take marriage very seriously. They make vows, they it seems they didn't pay much attention to. To vow for "better or worse," and then leave a spouse because they've aged or gained a few pounds, or other superficial reasons, well it seems to happen more often than you'd expect if they really understood the better or worse part.

My husband and I have friends who are on their third or fourth marriage, because the marriage broke up when it stopped being "fun" to be married. There weren't any major incompatibilities or serious problems in the marriages, the marriage had just lost it's "spark."

I don't think that most people going into marriage are that shallow. Most people do understand that there will be better and worse, richer and poorer, sickness and health. Although I do think most of us don't really fully realize what those vows mean until we face some of the worse, poorer, and sickness parts.

My husband's parents divorce when he was a teen (and he said his sister and he prayed for their divorce for many years before it happened). It was a very ugly divorce (but a perfect marriage, and a perfect family to all observers). My parents have been together in a far from perfect, but intact Catholic marriage. In Catholicism a person can divorce, but can not remarry unless the first marriage is found to be invalid for some reason. An annulment isn't a catholic divorce, the "rules" are very specific, and don't always make sense in the modern world (abuse is not necessarily a valid reason for dissolving a marriage).

My husband went into our marriage very afraid of divorce. We've been married for nearly 6 years, and my husband is still afraid that I will leave him. He can be a bit of a stubborn jerk at times, but I knew that when I married him, and I'm not going to leave the minute I decide I don't like him very much (I'd be leaving every other week, if I decided that).

I told my husband when I married him that I expected to fall in and out of love with him many times, and that I felt that love was as much a choice as a feeling, and if we both felt that way, and worked on our marriage, we had a good chance of it working. So far, that has worked for us.

Six years of marriage is still pretty much newlyweds, though we say we've had a crash course in marriage, because we've face a lot of the worse, poorer, and sickness side of our vows. We've faced my husband's job loss, mystery health problems leading to a diagnosis for me of fibromyalgia, autoimmune disease, sleep apnea, a sinus malformation, a bankruptcy due to my medical bills, my decline in health causing me to leave a very lucrative job (that was 60% of our income). Our having to live on 25% of our income while I applied for disability - my husband then having a serious injury that triggered a health crisis, job loss, and disability himself. Mounting medical bills that are putting us back into financial crisis.

Stress eats at a marriage. In some ways, I do consider us having had a crash course in marriage, and our marriage isn't scar-free as a result. Many people in our situations have divorced because they and their marriage couldn't stand the pressure. I don't feel my husband and I are superior to any of the couples whose marriaged didn't survive those stresses. For us, God has kept our marriage together (not always thanks to either of us).

I was raised in a fairly devout Catholic home, but I've had a much more complicated faith work than my husband, and spent many years as a lapsed Catholic and deliberate agnostic. I am the doubting Thomas - one minute feeling very close to God and the next trying to understand how God can exist. My husband's faith is more stable and simple. He does have the faith of a child, and doesn't have to think about it much. I both envy that, and find it extremely irritating.

A successful marriage is a lot of work, more work than I ever imagined putting in when I married (and I was about as well-prepared for marriage as anyone could be). I did tell my husband when we married, that I was very used to living alone and I liked it (I was prepared to be the middle-aged cat lady when I met my husband at 35). I expected marriage to be a lot harder than being single, and it has been. Being single wasn't better than being married, but it was definitely easier.

I think it's unrealistic to expect or assume that all marriages will, could or even should work out. Sometimes divorce is the best for all concerned, and other times it maybe happens when it didn't need to, but it did anyway. I think you can be reasonable well prepared for the struggles and challenges your marriage and you in that marriage will face, but there is no magic or no guarantees.

Kim_Star060404
10-13-2008, 12:48 PM
I agree with EZ's first post 100%. DH and I discussed divorce a lot before getting married and agreed that we would not ever consider it an option. I think that the mentality we have regarding divorce affects how we handle almost every situation where heated emotions rear their ugly heads. If we felt like divorce was an option to explore, it would be easier to throw in the towel than to work through and understand each other. If one of us wasn't able to trust that the other really didn't consider divorce an option, we wouldn't have gotten married. We feel that convicted about it.

Some people may think that ours is a naive position to take, and it may be, but every time we argue, we know that we have to come to a conclusion then and there because there are no other options besides working out our differences. I think that, because of this, we argue much less than other couples our age who have been married the same amount of time. That is truly a blessing. We're on the same page and KNOW that we're on the same page.

With that out of the way, I do think that the phenomena of more couples getting divorced after many more years of marriage than we're used to has a lot to do with children. One of our friend's parents divorced after 25+ years of marriage recently. The turning point? Their youngest child left for college. Our friend was shocked, but finally came to realize that they had been unhappy for a long time. I know a lot of people say that you shouldn't stay married because of children, but I know that, in this family, the children are happy that they stayed married until she graduated.

Marathon Mom
10-13-2008, 02:03 PM
I have known my husband for 19 years - We've been married for 12. Both of us agree we are happier now than we've ever been.

I am driven and strongwilled. My husband is very grounded and realistic. We agree and appreciate these things about eachother. Although it stinks sometimes when I am strongwilled about something that is not realistic! :)

I find it is sexy and magnetic when you believe in yourself and are confident in who you are. My mom told me - You have to be 'good company' and bring something interesting to the table...

He says to me - "If you ever leave me... take me with you".

We're a team - To the end.

kaplods
10-13-2008, 02:57 PM
I think if both partners are committed, it is possible to say realistically "divorce is not an option for us, because we will always put the marriage before our individual desires and needs." But if either person decides that their individual needs are more important than the marriage (and I'm not judging the morality of that decision, particularly without knowing what needs we're talking about), then divorce (at least an emotional disconnection from the marriage) becomes possible.

My husband and I decided when we discussed marrying, that we would try to put the other's needs ahead of our own, and the marriage's need before either of us. Without God's help, and that commitment; I don't think our marriage would still be strong. The stresses of all we've faced would have just been to much for the marriage to bear. Part of it was following the advice of my husband's grandparents who have been married more than 50 years "love each other, even when you hate each other."

It may seem impossible to love a person you hate (or at least don't like very much), but you can learn that love is an action not just a feeling. I think a marriage based on the action of love, is stronger than a marriage based on the feeling of love alone, because that feeling does ebb and flow. There are days I can't imagine ever again having the "hormonal" rush feeling of love for my husband. It feels like that magic is gone forever, when in reality the tide is just out, and it will eventually flow in again, especially if I stir the waters by choices I make. The action of love can bring about feelings of love, but I think without the actions, the feelings fade relatively quickly. A marriage can be like cultivating an exotic plant, it takes a lot of work and even with a lot of work, it doesn't always work out the way you expect. That doesn't mean a couple can't decide to keep and nurture the plant at all costs even when the plant looks dead to everyone else, or they may discard the plant because it doesn't meet their expectiations, even if it appears healthy to everyone else.

I'm not going to judge anyone's criteria for keeping a marriage, or their methods of tending it, but I am confident in my husband's and my ability, with the help of God and the guidance of our faith, to tend the marriage and keep it alive and growing. It may not always be in the same stage of "bloom" as it was on our wedding day, but I think we can keep it healthy any way.

I have to say that I expected beautiful flowers (a happy, easy marriage), but with our "crash course" in marriage through all the stresses, it's really more of a bonzai tree, shaped and strengthened by diversity, a little odd and even weathered and mishapen, but with a beauty of it's own.

nelie
10-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Lizzie - I'm so sorry to hear about the situation you are in. I do think it can be difficult when you are young and don't really know who you are or who you want to be.

I also think it can be difficult when you marry when you are older though because who you are may be well established and you may be very independent. I liked being alone, I liked being single but at the age of 31, I decided that I would share my life with someone and it was a bit of a learning process. We did discuss quite a bit of things before getting married, like kids where neither of us wanted kids but would consider them if the other decided they would like to have kids. We discussed future hopes, dreams, goals, etc. Even though things have changed and my hopes, dreams, goals of today are a bit different than a few years ago.

I also believe that in a marriage you should be able to be your own person. If someone wants kids, then the other person should be willing to discuss it. If someone wants to go to school, why would someone discourage that? If your hopes, dreams, goals are so widely divergent then maybe it isn't a place you should be.

PhotoChick
10-13-2008, 03:10 PM
But if either person decides that their individual needs are more important than the marriage (and I'm not judging the morality of that decision, particularly without knowing what needs we're talking about), then divorce (at least an emotional disconnection from the marriage) becomes possible.
Hm. Ok, I'm trying to figure out a way to say what I want to say about this and be clear and concise and I'm having a hard time.

The thing here is that when it's phrased this way, it becomes judgmental (even if it's not meant to be) towards those who cannot reconcile their individual needs with each other.

What do you do when each person in the marriage has changed to the point that their individual needs are not compatible? At that point, neither person is happy and neither of them CAN change back to the way they were because it would mean suppressing or denying a very real, very tangible need.

[edited for privacy reasons]

And the idea that we went into our marriage with the idea that divorce was an option and therefore we "let" this happen is or that we chose our personal needs above the needs of our marriage is ... again, hurtful and offensive to me.

FWIW.

.

nelie
10-13-2008, 03:24 PM
photo - I think marriages need to have compromise and it seems in your situation, there is no compromise. So you and your husband are polar opposites with one spouse 'winning' their side and the other person being unhappy.

Before I married my husband, we discovered that we weren't totally compatible in the same aspect. I'm not talking years though, more like days and I'm not sure how I would've felt if I went without for weeks let alone years. We made compromises though that kept us both happy and didn't leave me feeling unloved/unhappy and didn't leave him feeling that he was being pressured/harassed.

kaplods
10-13-2008, 04:54 PM
I think I was careful in being nonjudgemental - because I wasn't placing judgement on either an intact marriage or a divorce. Each can be a good thing. Each can be a horrible thing. Sometimes it's neither. Many people believe that an individual's needs and even desires are always more important that a marriage. There are also people who believe that the marriage is always more important than either individual's needs and desires (or worse, more important than one of the person's needs and desires). Neither opinion is necessarily right for everyone, or even right for the person practicing them. I can think of examples of each that would be horrible, and seem to be destroying one or both of the participants (and/or the larger family).

All of that being said, the exact value each partner places on individual needs and desires (each person's in the marriage) and the value they place on the marriage itself all do play a role in the decision of a divorce. A divorce cannot happen without at least one person's consent. That's neither a good or a bad thing in itself, it's just a fact. That doesn't mean a particular divorce shouldn't happen. Staying in a marriage that has become an ugly or dead thing is also (in my opinion) an unfortunate decision, at least without both partners deciding to work make it better.

I have no business judging or careless commenting or speculating on the dissolution of any particular marriage (whether or not it seemed salvageable by my standards), if it isn't my marriage. To me, I might believe "In the same situation, I would have tried to work that out," or "that wouldn't be a reason for divorce for me," doesn't mean I think I can judge that for any other couple or family.

I'm not perfect in that, though as there are some cases close to me that are harder not to judge (but mostly these are cases so close to my life that they are affecting my life). My husband's parents "stayed together for the kids," torturing the kids in the process. They both still pat themselves on the back for their resolve in trying to save the marriage, neither fully realizing the trauma they placed on their kids. In some ways, my parents marriage has been extremely turmultuous and I've wondered periodically if one or both of them wouldn't be happier in a divorce, but that's not my judgement to make, it's theirs, and I would support either. After seeing my husband's parents relationship (at least the indirect result of it) it made me see the difference in my parents relationship. As much conflict as there is between them, neither can invision their life without the other. A much as my mom gets on my dad's nerves, and my mom get's on my dad's, they're almost never more than 15 feet from the other.

I'm just saying that all of us have priorities and values that determine our decisions regarding marriage. I don't believe it's wrong to put some individual needs ahead of a marriage (the need for personal safety being one that instantly comes to mind), but I do believe it's wrong to put some individual needs ahead of a marriage. But, it's not my job, responsibility or right to determine the right or wrong of it for anyone else. That being said, I also don't think it's wrong to share our values, priorities and decisions on the matter, either.

I wasn't judging anyone else's choices or values, just stating my own. I am happy with my values and decisions, but I'm not saying they're right for everyone, just that they're right for me, my husband and our marriage. Because my position on this topic seems to be a bit uncommon, I tend to be more vocal in sharing it - that's just my personality to want to present my "weird" views and values more strongly than my views that are more mainstream.

lizziep
10-14-2008, 01:38 AM
photochick- i thought i was the only one in that situation. i feel like i've wound up in a very long room mate situation then in a marriage most of the time.

i haven't seen anything that was all that offensive in anything anyone posted on here. I do believe that divorce is an option, and i'll admit that i did go into my marriage thinking - well if it doesn't work out i guess there's always divorce. i know for certain that my husband does not have the same attitude and that's why if anything ever does happen - it will be "out of the blue" for him. Does that make me a bad person? I sometimes think it does -but I really hope it doesn't.

For now- I'm comfortable to hang around and see if things get better or worse. My personal wedding vows were not the traditional ones I don't feel bound by for better or for worse even though i try to know the difference between what is and what isn't a big issue in our marriage... it's a learning process.

jimaterry
10-14-2008, 01:43 AM
photochick- im sorry for what you are going thru... Ian and i kinda had the same problem the first couple years of our marriage.. i always had a huge sex drive, and once a day or more was just fine for me.. he on the other hand could go once every two weeks and be satisfied.. i told him that when i married him i gave him the 'key' to my sex life and it was unfair of him to hold back when i enabled him control of it by my beliefs of not cheating in a marriage.. thank goodness he has worked on it and during the last couple years we have gotten to the point where 2 times a week is the norm..it is still a lil less than i would like, but i know he has more than doubled his..and the funny thing, is it has actually jump started his sex drive.. now if we cant have sex during a week for some reason, He is the one that feels slighted lol....im sorry that your husband wont for whatever reason come to a compromise.. you mentioned something about --why should he have to have it when he doesnt want it , and why should you go without when you dont want to.. not an exact quote obviously, but the gist (i hope).. that is where compromise comes in... and for whatever reason (im not in your marriage, therefor i dont knwo why) he is unwilling to compromise.. i do believe in fighting for a marriage with all you have, but you cant be the ONLY one fighting for it...
i wish you luck hun....and again, im sorry for what youre going thru

PhotoChick
10-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Thanks guys. As I mentioned, I've edited my post above .. just in case.

kaplods - I didn't specifically think what you wrote was hurtful, so I apologize if it came across that I was targeting your words (since I quoted you).

I just personally believe that a marriage and a divorce can't be boiled down to anything as simple as "you gave up" or "one person saw it as an option". Sometimes it can - sure. I know of people who have gotten married with the idea of "well if it doesn't work out, we'll divorce". I'm not saying those people aren't out there. (And I personally see nothing wrong with that idea if both people agree that it's an option.)

But for some of us, we DID *both* go into the marriage thinking it would be forever and never ever considering divorce as an option. We both came from parents who stayed married for 50+ years (my parents until the death of my mom and his are still married). We didn't marry until we were 31 and 30 respectively - waiting to make sure it was right. We dated for nearly 5 years waiting for him to finish school before we married.

But the situation between us is exacerbated by medication issues that simply CANNOT be resolved for the safety and health of both of us.

We weren't young and impulsive and jumping into this.

And to imply that we're getting divorced because one of us "accepts" that as an option is hurtful. Neither of us accept it. Neither of us want it. But we both recognize that the other choice is for both of us to be unhappy forever.

And maybe my situation is somewhat unique. I'll accept that as well.

FWIW.

.

kaplods
10-14-2008, 10:36 AM
But you've got to accept it, or you'll have just as unhealthy and unhappy a divorce as a marriage.

The first step in getting a divorce is thinking about it - considering it, and eventually accepting it. There's nothing wrong in saying that (it doesn't mean you love the idea or had it in your head before the marriage, or before problems cropped up). If you don't consider and eventually accept divorce as an option - it isn't going to happen (because it is just the steps that have to happen for a divorce to occur). There's nothing accusatory in saying that. Both the good and bad truth is that for a divorce to happen, it has to be an option at least one person thinks of (at some point), and not only thinks of, but considers carefully and finally has to come to accept as the best (or only) choice.

The worst case scenario is two people in an unhappy marriage who neither consider or accept the option of divorce, nor work together to rebuild the marriage. Literally, there are people who kill their spounses because they for one reason or another wouldn't consider, accept (or see the option of) divorce.


My point was never one of "it's never ok to leave," but rather one of "it's ok to stay, and work out problems, even pretty serious problems." Not that it's mandatory to do so, but that it's ok to do so. It's ok, not to divorce, and it's even ok not to consider or accept divorce an option (at least as long as you don't consider and accept options like murder, suicide, harm to the children, or physical or emotional harm of either member of the marriage).

PhotoChick
10-14-2008, 10:44 AM
I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't really see any need to continue this conversation further to be honest.

I found EZ's words and attitude to be hurtful and cruel. I still find his attitude to be cruel. But there's no sense in discussing it further becuase I think my words here are being twisted around to mean something I'm not saying.

Thanks for the discussion.

.

Darlene 66
10-14-2008, 11:52 PM
I do believe in out of the blue. You see 5 years ago I was called home by my husband (was at a WW meeting). I sat down and he said "I love you but I'm not in love with you." We were married 20 years. I never had a clue, he was having an affair for the previous 5 years. I look back now and there were clues but I didn't see them. I don't think I was in denial but I was in love and willing to over-look bad behavior. I don't regret marrying. I have three beautiful (grown) children. I don't miss him, or marriage but I do miss being a family. My ex husband's father did the same thing to his wife.....(genetic cheater?)

Darlene

shrillharpy
10-22-2008, 07:28 PM
Did my ex-husband consider divorcing me an option? Of course not, I was his meal ticket! It didn't stop him from treating me, and more importantly, our baby girl like garbage though.
Needless to say, I considered divorce an option and exercised it. It was absoultely the best thing I ever did. I'm married to a wonderful man now, I have two little boys, and my husband has adopted my little girl. My ex-husband, as no surprise, wants nothing to do with her.
As an interesting side note, my parents and my in-laws are still married. Their marriages are hateful and verbally abusive (in my parents case, sometimes physically abusive as well). But they are all very proud of themselves because they're "still married."
Whatever....

kaplods
10-22-2008, 07:36 PM
That's what I find so crazy, that some people will consider deception, physical and verbal abuse and sometimes even murder as options before divorce.

I don't think it's offensive or finding fault to say that for divorce to happen at least one of the people has to consider divorce at some point. In some marriages, not considering the option of divorce is far more morally repugnant, especially when more heinous options are chosen instead. When I was a probation officer, I had a case where a mother was ignoring the sexual abuse of her children, because she didn't believe in divorce! Yikes!

PhotoChick
10-22-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't think it's offensive or finding fault to say that for divorce to happen at least one of the people has to consider divorce at some point.Ok, I know I said I was walking away from this thread, but I really feel like I need to defend myself here based on my very strong response to what EZ said.

Please note the original quote that got me upset: The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige.
The key phrases here:
"as a way out"
"fail to do what they need to save the marriage"

Neither my husband and I looked at divorce AS A WAY OUT. Nor did we FAIL TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE. What has occurred between us is a basic incompatibility (influenced by time, age, and medication) that CANNOT BE FIXED without one of us compromising beyond what makes either of us happy.

To imply that we took the easy way out and didn't fight for our marriage or "failed to do what we needed to" is cruel and hurtful - because NO ONE knows our exact situation, and NO ONE knows what we did and have done for years to try to figure this out. And that experience has made me realize in a very real and personal way that no one ever knows what ANYONE has or hasn't done - and to say that anyone has "failed to do what the need to do", unless you are intimately involved in the relationship yourself, is rude, cruel, and hurtful.

We did not just blithely say "well we have a problem and I don't want to deal with it, so we're just gonna divorce".

Of course FINALLY, at some point, we had to say ... with tears and pain ... have we reached a point where divorce has become an option? And we had to answer ... again with tears and pain ... yes, at this point we've struggled and fought (separately and together). We've seen doctors and therapists. We've loved each other and still love each other ... but we cannot continue like this. And yes, divorce, no matter how much we don't want to think about it ... is something we now are going to consider.

I'm not saying that AT SOME POINT the option becomes valid.

I am saying that the comment that EZ made with it's blanket judgment that we (or any other couple struggling with this pain) just blew off our marriage and FAILED TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO so we could have A WAY OUT ... is unacceptable to me.

And I stand by that.

.

McKenziesmomma
10-22-2008, 10:00 PM
First and foremost everyone is different...and I think as long as you never take your relationship for granted...if you always hold that relationship close to you and try to do things to keep it strong...it will stay strong...

I don't think anyone ever is just happy for 15 - 20 - 35 years and then they just wake up one day and buh bye.....nooooo something festers....they aren't happy in the sack...they aren't happy with one or many things in the relationship...and they may let it slide for years...but eventually it wears down on them and then something happens....they meet someone new or they just can't take it anymore, or any number of things

communication is soooo important....and how you do it!

EZMONEY
10-22-2008, 10:18 PM
HERE ARE MY POSTS ~

I could go on and on and on...on this subject....I won't bore you.

I will tell you though that as long as one person in the marraige allows divorce to be an option....you will probably end up there at some point.

I see I might have created a problem here....what's new :lol:...with what I said. If I knew it was going to come up I would have explained further.

As most of you know I was divorced and so was Angie when we met. Divorce was not my choice, it was her choice in her first marriage. Details are not important for this thread topic.

I will try and explain better my view ~

As much as I did not want a divorce from my first wife, I thank God daily for Angie.

Angie and I are Christians and, through maturity in our Lord, we understand better that God will do as He promises and restore all things broken. We know that by looking to Him daily for guidance and :listen: listening to what He is telling us through His WORD we will survive all "issues" in our marriage. I will say we have had a few....though ones....with my step-daughter.

We believe that the Bible does give us grounds for divorce...but we also know that if we both look to our Lord first, on a daily basis, we will not fall into those situations.

The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ;)...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige. Again I stress, it only takes ONE person to want one....if the other person does there is usually nothing you can do about it.

I will admit that 19 years ago....OMGoodness! has it been that long?...wow!!...anyway....as much as I didn't want a divorce I will tell you I wanted my marriage saved for ME...little 'ol ME!!!...although I was a church attending Christian I know that I didn't "rest" in God's WORD and allow Him to work it out for my good. I held on tight, saying it was what God wanted...which it was...but it was not what my-ex wanted....I learned my lesson...still learning everyday in His WORD....I often say if I knew how good my life was going to be after my ex left I would have helped her pack her bags :)

All joking aside, it was a tough time in my life...well past that now and most know that my ex and I are great friends...actually will see each other most of the week-end for different family activities...as usual.

As usual I have rambled on and on and probably :?: confused everyone even more...some things never change :lol:

And yours ~

Ok, I know I said I was walking away from this thread, but I really feel like I need to defend myself here based on my very strong response to what EZ said.

Please note the original quote that got me upset:
The key phrases here:
"as a way out"
"fail to do what they need to save the marriage"

Neither my husband and I looked at divorce AS A WAY OUT. Nor did we FAIL TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE. What has occurred between us is a basic incompatibility (influenced by time, age, and medication) that CANNOT BE FIXED without one of us compromising beyond what makes either of us happy.

To imply that we took the easy way out and didn't fight for our marriage or "failed to do what we needed to" is cruel and hurtful - because NO ONE knows our exact situation, and NO ONE knows what we did and have done for years to try to figure this out. And that experience has made me realize in a very real and personal way that no one ever knows what ANYONE has or hasn't done - and to say that anyone has "failed to do what the need to do", unless you are intimately involved in the relationship yourself, is rude, cruel, and hurtful.

We did not just blithely say "well we have a problem and I don't want to deal with it, so we're just gonna divorce".

Of course FINALLY, at some point, we had to say ... with tears and pain ... have we reached a point where divorce has become an option? And we had to answer ... again with tears and pain ... yes, at this point we've struggled and fought (separately and together). We've seen doctors and therapists. We've loved each other and still love each other ... but we cannot continue like this. And yes, divorce, no matter how much we don't want to think about it ... is something we now are going to consider.

I'm not saying that AT SOME POINT the option becomes valid.

I am saying that the comment that EZ made with it's blanket judgment that we (or any other couple struggling with this pain) just blew off our marriage and FAILED TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO so we could have A WAY OUT ... is unacceptable to me.

And I stand by that.

.

Again, PHOTOCHICK....I apologize for whatever I said to offend you :hug: I still fail to see how what I posted caused you to think I made judgement on anyone or implied anyone blew off their marraige...truce? :^:

raw23
10-22-2008, 10:31 PM
*regretting starting this thread*


:sorry:

PhotoChick
10-22-2008, 10:54 PM
Rebecca, please don't regret starting this. Seriously. I'm not angry or upset in general ... I just found one particular statement to be ... let's say not well thought out.

But I think overall the information imparted and the things discussed are valid and (hopefully) useful. :)

.

jimaterry
10-23-2008, 03:22 AM
when i was 20 i married my sons father( he was 6 months old at the time). i knew it was a mistake going into it, knew i didnt love him, but i felt like i owed my son a chance to grow up with his dad... we got married oct 5 of 84, and he hit me nov 9 of 84.. i say hit me, but he actually beat me up pretty good... i was young and never should have married him esp since i didnt love him... when i healed up, one night while he was asleep i packed my son and his things in the car, started it, ran back in the house, grabbed a baseball bat and hit my ex across the kneecaps, and left... not real proud of that now, but i thank god that even at such a young age i didnt stay around for that crap...
now im 44..i swore i wouldnt get married again cause in my heart i dont believe in divorce.. i do believe in 'happy ever after' etc.. but i had been so disalusioned at such a young age... when i met ian we had long talks about what we expected from a marriage, etc... in our marriage we dont consider divorce an option.. but.. im glad the option was there in my first marriage.. and i used it.. i was the 'one' that made it an option.. in this marriage neither of us believe divorce is an option.. its a personal, individual choice as we dont have the luxury to walk in anothers shoes even tho sometimes we may think we know best.. i personally havnt seen any posts on here that were said in a hurtful vein... we are all stating our opinions on this topic and with the wonderful diversity that is human, there will be loads of different opinions.

McKenziesmomma
10-23-2008, 09:14 AM
Ok, I know I said I was walking away from this thread, but I really feel like I need to defend myself here based on my very strong response to what EZ said.

Please note the original quote that got me upset:
The key phrases here:
"as a way out"
"fail to do what they need to save the marriage"

Neither my husband and I looked at divorce AS A WAY OUT. Nor did we FAIL TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE. What has occurred between us is a basic incompatibility (influenced by time, age, and medication) that CANNOT BE FIXED without one of us compromising beyond what makes either of us happy.

To imply that we took the easy way out and didn't fight for our marriage or "failed to do what we needed to" is cruel and hurtful - because NO ONE knows our exact situation, and NO ONE knows what we did and have done for years to try to figure this out. And that experience has made me realize in a very real and personal way that no one ever knows what ANYONE has or hasn't done - and to say that anyone has "failed to do what the need to do", unless you are intimately involved in the relationship yourself, is rude, cruel, and hurtful.

We did not just blithely say "well we have a problem and I don't want to deal with it, so we're just gonna divorce".

Of course FINALLY, at some point, we had to say ... with tears and pain ... have we reached a point where divorce has become an option? And we had to answer ... again with tears and pain ... yes, at this point we've struggled and fought (separately and together). We've seen doctors and therapists. We've loved each other and still love each other ... but we cannot continue like this. And yes, divorce, no matter how much we don't want to think about it ... is something we now are going to consider.

I'm not saying that AT SOME POINT the option becomes valid.

I am saying that the comment that EZ made with it's blanket judgment that we (or any other couple struggling with this pain) just blew off our marriage and FAILED TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO so we could have A WAY OUT ... is unacceptable to me.

And I stand by that.

.


I see your point....but I don't think EZ was saying that everyone who gets a divorce views it as a way out.....obviously I think there are several different situations where divorce is unavoidable (I could list several situations)

Photochick - I don't know your particular situation.....but if I may guess.....did you get married young? The way I took what you said about your divorce was it was due to incompatability....so I'm wondering if maybe it was something rushed or not well thought out or based on the wrong emotions like a pregnancy or something like that....please don't get mad I'm not saying that is what it was I'm just asking because the point in me saying this is.....you can never be 100 % sure of who your marrying and if they are going to change through the years....you can't control people.....

but I do believe that MOST (not ALL) marriages that are entered into at a young age or out of a feeling of obligation due to a pregnancy don't work out....again I said not all of these are the case......but everyone I have ever known to get married due to pregnancy has gotten a divorce and everyone I have ever known who got married before age 21 or so has also gotten divorced.....I think most men (MOST NOT ALL) mature a little slower than most (NOT ALL) women......I think this causes some problems.....I have known alot of people who get married and the man still thinks he can get out and go to bars and get out with the guys and run around and that never works and he wasn't ready to give it up.....

I could really go on and on about this....but really each person's situation is unique and has different factors affecting it....

to the person who started this thread....you have a valid concern and shouldn't be sorry for starting this thread.....I think the fact that you are concerned about this will help you be more aware of things when you enter into marriage and possibly have a more successful marriage...

my advice.....before marriage really look at yourself and the things you do...are you ready to sacrifice things for a marriage and someone else...things like...not going out and running around (clubs, bars, parties....if you do that sort of thing)....look at things that are important to you and how they will affect your relationship...this could be something as small as shopping habits...things you like to eat...or something as big as religion...

then I would look at the top 5-6 reasons why marriage fails....and discuss those things with your partner....find out if there are any expectations in those areas....go ahead and decide how you will handle things.....for example one of the main reasons for divorce is finances (money).....go ahead and decide how your budget will work...how you will handle problems and spending...and how will you adjust the budget and changes or emergencies arise.....and do somethinglike that for each of the top reasons for divorce


I hope I didn't offend.....I'm not saying my comments apply 100% across the board....everyone has their own unique situation....I wish that everyone could be as happy as they are on their honeymoon! :D

Photochick - I am sorry for what you had to go through.....it sounds like it was a very emotional and painful time...and I am sorry for you for that....I wouldn't wish those feelings on my worst enemy......the only thing I can say is I truely believe things happen for a reason and your true love could be out there somewhere if you haven't already found them!

Jen415
10-23-2008, 11:25 AM
I just finished reading this whole thread....

PhotoChick, my marriage was like yours.....and the decision to end it was just as painful.

It basically came down to this--we were not meeting each other's needs. He was growing in a totally different direction, and by the time we recognized that, it was too late to come back together. We tried everything to stay married and be happy at the same time. It JUST DIDN'T WORK.

In the end, I chose me, and what made me happy. That may sound selfish, but ultimately I knew it was up to me to create my own reality. I also knew that I was not what he needed, and that he could find someone better suited for himself. (And he sure did that--he was remarried five months after our divorce to someone that suited him better.)

Today, he is still happily married, and I am in my fourth year with my special guy. He (my guy) has stated he will not marry again, and I am okay with that. I know our commitment to one another isn't any less because we aren't legally married.

Marriage and Divorce are such individual things. What works (or doesn't work) for some will not for others.