Food Talk And Fabulous Finds - Olive oil turns to trans fat when you cook with it---huh????

Last weekend, I was listening to a talk radio show with a guy that's a naturopath and chiropracter, and he told a woman that when you cook with olive oil, it turns into a trans fat.
I'm assuming from the heating of the oil. I'm pretty sure there's more to making a trans fat than just applying heat.

Has anyone else heard this?? Can this be true??

I'm having a hard time believing it and I can't find any info on the web.

Thanks :)

I don't know the specifics but I know olive oil isn't supposed to be used at high heats because 'something bad' happens to it. You should only use olive oil for low heat cooking.

If you need high heat cooking, look into peanut oil.

I don't know about the transfat part either. I do know that olive oil should be put into food after it's done cooking. If you want to use oil for cooking, the best are: canola, safflower and grapeseed oils, but that's according to my own research, which could be wrong (but I doubt it...just kidding!). ;)

Unfortunately, this is true. Because of this, I barely use any oil when I saute anything. When it's finished cooking, then I drizzle the food with olive oil. This way you get the flavor and the health benefits.

I believe in order to create an actual trans fat, it needs to be hydroginated. There are things that happen to different oils at high temperatures that can effect their health benefits but becoming a trans fat is not one of them - and olive oil has a pretty low "smoke point" which can cause ear damage when it sets off your smoke alarm :D

I found a couple of web sites with this info but since one of them was created by the olive oil industry, I figured that one was one of those "grain of salt" information sites. Here's a different one that seems to have some pretty decent information:

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/howtransform.html

Great article YOYO . . . thanks for posting it.

A small amount of hydrogenation occurs when any oil is heated to VERY high temperatures repeatedly (such as frying). Hydrogenation occurs to a smaller degree in olive oils because they are highly mono-unsaturated oils. Olive oils are not meant to be brought to very high temperatures because of their low flash point - using a vegetable oil or peanut oil would be better. If you have to use olive oil for high heat, use light olive oil which has a higher flash point than extra virgin.

True hydrogenation happens when an oil has super heated hydrogen running through it (usually 250-400 degrees) in the presence of a metal catalyst. The process takes several hours. I don't know of any home cook that has that kind of machinery or time on their hands.

Of course, any heat will diminish the nutritional value in any food.

Unfortunately, this is true. Because of this, I barely use any oil when I saute anything. When it's finished cooking, then I drizzle the food with olive oil. This way you get the flavor and the health benefits.

Source?

I believe in order to create an actual trans fat, it needs to be hydroginated. Yup yup yup. You can't just "turn" an oil into a trans fat by heating it.

Foodies will tell you to not do any high heat cooking with olive oils because they have a very low smoke point and will get that smoked/burned flavor and become bitter long before your food is cooked. Low heat cooking wtih olive oil is just fine.

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Seriously? I use olive oil on the stove top to cook my veggie burgers :( Pan "fried". Hmmmmm.... I've never heard this before.

Oh, I use olive oil for just about everything except those recipes where I need really high heat frying ... like stir frys.

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Oh, I use olive oil for just about everything except those recipes where I need really high heat frying ... like stir frys.

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a friend of mine tried deep frying with olive oil.....let's just say there was a fire extinguisher involved.

I think unless you're "deep fat frying," you're not getting the oil hot enough for this to occur. I've always heard that the oil will generally "taste bad" and smoke long before you have to worry about creating significant trans fat transformation.

So what do you use for stir frying???
P-nut oil??

Rachel Ray uses so much EVOO--it's gotta be good, right-lol! :)

a friend of mine tried deep frying with olive oilOh goodness! :) All other issues aside, you have to use so MUCH oil for deep frying and I just can't see pouring 4 bottles of somewhat expensive olive oil (in comparison) into a deep fryer. Bleah!

I use peanut oil for deep fat frying. We do it rarely, but one of my favorites is fried catfish and hushpuppies. We also fry a turkey once a year or so.

When I stir fry I actually use canola oil.

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Oh goodness! :) All other issues aside, you have to use so MUCH oil for deep frying and I just can't see pouring 4 bottles of somewhat expensive olive oil (in comparison) into a deep fryer. Bleah!

When I stir fry I actually use canola oil.

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That's what I was thinking - talk about "money to burn" :lol:
I'm a canola fan too, although I have experimented much.

I use sesame oil for stir frying, ghee for high heat frying or oven roasting at high temperatures, and extra virgin olive oil for low heat applications and salad dressings.

I do use canola at times, but refining is what makes it tolerate heat and refining damages some of the good aspects of the oil, so I don't use it too often. I would love to be able to use peanut oil, but I can't find it organic and I feel all peanut products should be organic given they are grown in rotation with cotton.

By the way, trans fats occur naturally in some foods (meat and dairy.) I personally feel that the ones that occur in nature are fine, it's the industry produced kind (hydrogenated oils) that you should stay away from like the plague.

This has gotten me to wondering....
at the Chinese buffet that we go to on occassion, they have the hot grill where they will stir fry your food in front of you. They use a margarine, I'm assuming that has trans fats because it's solid at room temp, on the grill. So here's my pondering: does the high heat of the grill do something to "de-hydrogenate" the fats in the margarine? Heat could make those hydrogen bonds break up and no longer be hydrogenated--I think-hmmmm.
Any chemists on here????

By the way, trans fats occur naturally in some foods (meat and dairy.) I personally feel that the ones that occur in nature are fine, it's the industry produced kind (hydrogenated oils) that you should stay away from like the plague.

Just another case of buzz words causing mass hysteria.

But no one ever defines "low" and "high". Or if they do, they use degrees. But what does that translate to on my stove top with a dial going from "Low" to High." I wouldn't assume that low/high in regard to safe oil temps is the same as low/high to the people who designed my old apartment range.

This has gotten me to wondering....
at the Chinese buffet that we go to on occassion, they have the hot grill where they will stir fry your food in front of you. They use a margarine, I'm assuming that has trans fats because it's solid at room temp, on the grill. So here's my pondering: does the high heat of the grill do something to "de-hydrogenate" the fats in the margarine? Heat could make those hydrogen bonds break up and no longer be hydrogenated--I think-hmmmm.
Any chemists on here????

My husband is a chemist...let me talk to him.

Are you sure it is margarine they use? The place we go to uses butter.....bad bad bad (oh so good) butter.

I was thinking that also, Julie.
Like roasting veggies in a 400 degree oven. Is that high enough to change the oil?

My husband is a chemist...let me talk to him.

Are you sure it is margarine they use? The place we go to uses butter.....bad bad bad (oh so good) butter.

Could be butter, but it has that enhanced fake yellow color more like margarine, not the pale yellow like butter :dizzy:

By the way, trans fats occur naturally in some foods (meat and dairy.) I personally feel that the ones that occur in nature are fine, it's the industry produced kind (hydrogenated oils) that you should stay away from like the plague.

Is that trans fat or saturated fat? I was under the impression there was a difference. Although, I get proven wrong a lot lately :D

This has gotten me to wondering....
at the Chinese buffet that we go to on occassion, they have the hot grill where they will stir fry your food in front of you. They use a margarine, I'm assuming that has trans fats because it's solid at room temp, on the grill. So here's my pondering: does the high heat of the grill do something to "de-hydrogenate" the fats in the margarine? Heat could make those hydrogen bonds break up and no longer be hydrogenated--I think-hmmmm.
Any chemists on here????

:lol: nice try at rationalizing your way into a french fry there ddc :lol: Hydrogination is what keeps the margarine solid at room temperature. Unfortunately, it doesn't "de-hydrogniate" at high temps. That's why the fast food peeps are in hot water - for using all that hydroginated crap in their deep fryers.

Like roasting veggies in a 400 degree oven. Is that high enough to change the oil?Honestly, I don't know for a fact, but I really don't think so. I'd be interested in seeing any research on this.

A quick Google search found the following:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=452598
The large refinery-like factories which take unsaturated vegetable oil
and turn it into margarine or vegetable lard do so by bubbling
hydrogen gas through 250 to 400 degree hot vegetable oil in the
presence of a metal catalyst, usually nickel or platinum. The process
can take several hours. You cannot make a saturated product like
margarine at home by heating olive oil or any other vegetable oil in a
pan. We don't know where this weird notion has come from. For more
see our olive oil chemistry page

hydrogenation is a very exothermic reaction (which means it gives off heat) so it won't be favored by adding more heat. If you raise the temperature it won't cause the hydrogens to break away, at least not at any reasonable cooking temperatures.

That was his answer....not sure how applicable it is.

Here's another link that I found:

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/howtransform.html
A number of years ago, a dietitian/nutritionist told me about her experience trying to make trans fatty acids in an open pan on top of the stove. She wanted to make a video of the process to use for teaching purposes. She was unsuccessful with this venture, and she had contacted me to ask me why her project had failed. She had not actually known how the trans were formed to begin with and assumed from what she had been told that the raising of the temperature would cause the trans to form. The project had been undertaken in one of the laboratories in a local university, and the analysis was to be done by someone in the same laboratory who knew how to use the instrument for analyzing the oil.

I was thinking that also, Julie.
Like roasting veggies in a 400 degree oven. Is that high enough to change the oil?

You shouldn't roast veggies in a 400+ degree oven with extra virgin olive oil, not because of it changing from a cis-fat to a trans-fat but because there is a risk of fire. The smoke point of olive oil is 406 degrees...

Unless you take oil and super heat it REPEATEDLY (ie: frying a turkey, cooling the oil and using it again later) you're not going to be able to significantly change the molecular structure of an oil.

make sense?

Is that trans fat or saturated fat? I was under the impression there was a difference. Although, I get proven wrong a lot lately :D



Transfats do occur naturally - it is partially hydrogenated trans fats that people need to worry about. Naturally occuring trans fats have not been shown to share the same harmful qualities as synthetic trans fats that result from hydrogenation.

You shouldn't roast veggies in a 400 degree oven with olive oil, not because of it changing from a cis-fat to a trans-fat but because there is a risk of fire.
Hm. Not sure I agree with that. :) The smoke point of EVOO is something like 410degF. I roast veggies tossed in olive oil all the time at 400 deg and have never had a problem with smoke or fire.

Of coruse it's all in what you're personally comfortable with.

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Hm. Not sure I agree with that. :) The smoke point of EVOO is something like 410degF. I roast veggies tossed in olive oil all the time at 400 deg and have never had a problem with smoke or fire.

Of coruse it's all in what you're personally comfortable with.

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I guess I should have said 400+ degree oven. There are tons of ovens that are off by 10-15 degrees. I calibrated our brand new oven a few months ago to find out it was 17 degrees hotter....now I know why my baked goods were burning! The smoke point of evoo is 406 and it wouldn't take an oven being off by much to exceed that 406. If you're going to roast with olive oil, using Virgin or Light would be the best choice.

I roast with olive oil @ 400 degrees all the time, but I also roast veggies and whatnot at 425 and 450 all the time....I have to be careful to remember what I set the oven for vs. which oil I'm using.

Transfats do occur naturally - it is partially hydrogenated trans fats that people need to worry about. Naturally occuring trans fats have not been shown to share the same harmful qualities as synthetic trans fats that result from hydrogenation.

Thank you for clarifying Zeffryn. That makes perfect sense to me that it's more a case of the hydrogination being the culprit in health issues than a fat (any fat) in a natural form. In moderation of course.

Thank you for clarifying Zeffryn. That makes perfect sense to me that it's more a case of the hydrogination being the culprit in health issues than a fat (any fat) in a natural form. In moderation of course.

indeed, dear. :)

Zeffryn you did a great job explaining everything!

Zeffryn you did a great job explaining everything!

Thank my husband...my pregnancy jello brain needed some help. :dizzy:

This thread was an emotional roller coaster!

:?:

:fr:

:(

:book2:

:bravo:

:)

:cool:

Actually the smoke point of olive oil is a range. From less then 200 degrees F to 406 degrees F. It depends on the brand and the degree of processing. A high quality cold pressed extra virgin olive oil more then likely will have a smoke point at the lower end of that range.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=56


Also, here's a link about a study done on natural trans fats.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-eat19-2008may19,0,846200.story

EDIT: Glory, you're cracking me up! :lol:

Actually the smoke point of olive oil is a range. From less then 200 degrees F to 406 degrees F. It depends on the brand and the degree of processing. A high quality cold pressed extra virgin olive oil more then likely will have a smoke point at the lower end of that range.



Actually, you're right in that a high quality unrefined olive oil would have a very low smoke point, but the range of smoke points actually goes much higher than 406.

The average extra virgin olive oil that we all have on our pantry shelves has a smoke point of 406. The average virgin (or light) olive oil has a smoke point of 420 and the average extra light olive oil (the most processed) has a smoke point of 468.

Here is some references if you're interested:
http://missvickie.com/howto/spices/oils.html
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/CollectedInfo/OilSmokePoints.htm

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/images/smiles/book2.gif

I LOVE THIS. :)

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So, we did debunk the olive oil to trans fat idea, right??

Should I send that naturopath a link to this discussion - lol ??

Thanks all :)

Myth ... BUSTED.

heh.

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So, we did debunk the olive oil to trans fat idea, right??

Should I send that naturopath a link to this discussion - lol ??

Thanks all :)

no problem.

we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors.

oy.

Myth ... BUSTED.

heh.

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3FC brains just plain rock don't they?

no problem.

we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors.

oy.


ditto on the oy........

:hot:

The closest thing I could find to flaming veggies.... ;)

no problem.

we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors.

oy.

Now, now, not all of them are quacks! :lol:

I know quite a few who actually know their stuff and don't buy into all the scare tactics.

Now, now, not all of them are quacks! :lol:

I know quite a few who actually know their stuff and don't buy into all the scare tactics.

ok, ok, I'll give that to you on Naturopaths....but I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors. A friend of mine was visiting a chiropractor a few years ago, told him that her mom had brain cancer that had spread all over her body....he told her to bring her mother in and see if he could "crack it out of her".

:dizzy:

I'm scared of chiropractors. I had a friend who's husband went in for an adjustment and came out in a coma. He eventually came out of it, but she said his whole personality changed. They had owned two gyms and wound up losing them both because he couldn't work anymore.
I know that chiropractors do help some people, but I'm just not going there !

ok, ok, I'll give that to you on Naturopaths....but I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors. A friend of mine was visiting a chiropractor a few years ago, told him that her mom had brain cancer that had spread all over her body....he told her to bring her mother in and see if he could "crack it out of her".

:dizzy:

My sympathies to your friend, but remember:

The plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data".

Applying one case to a whole profession is a gross generalisation that insults the legitimate members of that profession, and makes a statement about you. It's like saying all gynaecologists are rapists because one of them sexually assaulted someone once.

My chiropractor has helped me a great deal, and I've been to several good ones over the years. Maybe your friend needs to find a new chiro.

My sympathies to your friend, but remember:

The plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data".

Applying one case to a whole profession is a gross generalisation that insults the legitimate members of that profession, and makes a statement about you. It's like saying all gynaecologists are rapists because one of them sexually assaulted someone once.

My chiropractor has helped me a great deal, and I've been to several good ones over the years. Maybe your friend needs to find a new chiro.

I never said it was "data" or fact, it is a personal opinion of mine. I do not intend to change people's minds about who takes care of their medical health. I'm glad that you have had good luck with them, but for me and my family - we have not.

I knew this conversation would cause panties to bunch.

I know the conversation has turned but yeah not all chiropractors are the same...

I had back problems years ago and went to a really good chiropractor. My back hasn't had problems since. A couple years ago, I tried to go to a chiropractor again but really didn't feel like it was helping and so quit. Similar to any service, sometimes you get bad service, sometimes good but the good ones are golden.

My sympathies to your friend, but remember:

The plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data".

Applying one case to a whole profession is a gross generalisation that insults the legitimate members of that profession, and makes a statement about you. It's like saying all gynaecologists are rapists because one of them sexually assaulted someone once.

My chiropractor has helped me a great deal, and I've been to several good ones over the years. Maybe your friend needs to find a new chiro.

Amen to that.

I adore my chiro. The work I do is alternating hugely physical days 1 or 2 days a week with 5 days of sitting on my butt. I go to a massage therapist and a chiro regularly and both of them have helped me immensely.

Not all chiros are quacks.
Not all dentists are sadists.
etc.

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I knew this conversation would cause panties to bunch.

My panties aren't bunched. I'm in my jammies - no panties here (at the moment anyway!)

Amen to that.

I adore my chiro. The work I do is alternating hugely physical days 1 or 2 days a week with 5 days of sitting on my butt. I go to a massage therapist and a chiro regularly and both of them have helped me immensely.

Not all chiros are quacks.
Not all dentists are sadists.
etc.

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Yep. I don't think I could survive without my massage therapist or my chiro. Thank goodness for kick-*** health insurance!

I'm scared of chiropractors. I had a friend who's husband went in for an adjustment and came out in a coma. He eventually came out of it, but she said his whole personality changed. They had owned two gyms and wound up losing them both because he couldn't work anymore.
I know that chiropractors do help some people, but I'm just not going there !

My parents have a good friend named John who went to see a chiropractor and ended up paralyzed. Something terrible happened during the procedure and the chiropractor freaked out and didn't call 911 for nearly 2 hours while John lay paralyzed. He spent months in the hospital, needed major sugery and is still doing rehabilitation work - he is now able to walk again, thank god.

This isn't one of those "friend of a friend" stories or my parents "knew a guy" this is a real story of a man my parents have known since I was a child. My parents are still good friends with John and his wife, and I see them every time I visit. I will pass on chiropractors.

Amen to that.

I adore my chiro. The work I do is alternating hugely physical days 1 or 2 days a week with 5 days of sitting on my butt. I go to a massage therapist and a chiro regularly and both of them have helped me immensely.

Not all chiros are quacks.
Not all dentists are sadists.
etc.

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I think "all the chiros are quacks" is too broad. The ones who are addressing back/skeletal issues are fine. The ones who claim chiro will cure everything from baldness to near-sightedness are weirdos.

My parents have a good friend named John who went to see a chiropractor and ended up paralyzed. Something terrible happened during the procedure and the chiropractor freaked out and didn't call 911 for nearly 2 hours while John lay paralyzed. He spent months in the hospital, needed major sugery and is still doing rehabilitation work - he is now able to walk again, thank god.

This isn't one of those "friend of a friend" stories or my parents "knew a guy" this is a real story of a man my parents have known since I was a child. My parents are still good friends with John and his wife, and I see them every time I visit. I will pass on chiropractors.
Yeabbut ...

That's like saying my friend's oncologist misdiagosed his cancer for 6 months and as a result he's now in stage V pancreatic cancer (this is true) so all oncologists are quacks.

Or my dentist advised me not to worry about a small pre-cavity on my upper right 1st molar, and 8 months later I had to have a root canal and a crown (also true) so all dentists are quacks.

Or my mom's doctor missed her heart condition and 3 weeks later she died of a heart attack (also true), so all GPs are quacks.

You cannot take one bad experience with one person and use that to damn and condemn an entire profession made up of thousands of people. It's unreasonable and illogical.

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I think "all the chiros are quacks" is too broad. The ones who are addressing back/skeletal issues are fine. The ones who claim chiro will cure everything from baldness to near-sightedness are weirdos.

Just so I don't piss anybody off, I'll change my statement.

Yes, Bettybooty, I agree with this statement.

exactly.
Um. But that's NOT 'exactly' what you said. What you said was:

we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors.

I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors.

I'm going ot state again that condemning an entire profession based on the actions of a few bad ones is unreasonable.

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Yeabbut ...

That's like saying my friend's oncologist misdiagosed his cancer for 6 months and as a result he's now in stage V pancreatic cancer (this is true) so all oncologists are quacks.

Or my dentist advised me not to worry about a small pre-cavity on my upper right 1st molar, and 8 months later I had to have a root canal and a crown (also true) so all dentists are quacks.

Or my mom's doctor missed her heart condition and 3 weeks later she died of a heart attack (also true), so all GPs are quacks.

You cannot take one bad experience with one person and use that to damn and condemn an entire profession made up of thousands of people. It's unreasonable and illogical.

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In the same right, asking her to visit a chiropractor after having that kind of traumatic experience is a bit unreasonable. I'm sure that Chiro had quite a few patients that thought he was kin to god and would recommend him to anybody. I don't think she was trying to damn the entire profession, but saying that she, personally, will pass is completely reasonable. She never once tried to sway someone else into making the same decision.

Everyone is open to their own opinions, and like it or not, they may differ. I cannot accept that it isn't ok for her to point out her opinion, but definitely ok for pro-chiros to do so.

The point of a debate is to hear both sides. Honestly, neither side has showed anything more than anecdotal evidence to support their case.

Um. But that's NOT 'exactly' what you said. What you said was:

we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors.

I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors.

I'm going ot state again that condemning an entire profession based on the actions of a few bad ones is unreasonable.

.

um....what I meant was that I agree with her. Would you prefer that I change my statement to "I agree with you"?

My saying that I'm not budging on chiropractors means just that....I'm not going to budge. I've had far too many bad experiences to try again....I'm really happy that you and so many others have had great experiences...but it seems like I'm not alone in my concern about Chiros.

I'm sure there are chiros out there that do just what they are intended to do...crack backs...but from my experience, the ones that I personally have seen, have acted as shamans thinking every ailment in the world was brought on by a subluxation in the spine. I honestly do not think that cracking ones back and pulling on legs will cure cancer or stop pre-term labor (as in my first child and experience with chiros).

Okay, I'll bite...

I've gone to Chiropractors off and on for years, for back problems. I have an extra vertebra, so Chiropractors have been helpful for me. I don't go all the time.

That being said, there is always a very small danger when adjusting the neck that something could go wrong. Of course, the danger is probably similar when playing contact sports. "Regular" doctors make mistakes all the time as well. It just goes to show that people should do their homework and not just pick a doctor (of any kind) willy-nilly.

I do think Chiropractic care can be helpful with some conditions not typically associated with bad problems. I had carpel tunnel problems that were relieved through Chiropractic care (I avoided surgery) and I know some types of headaches can be a symptom of back issues.

If someone is uncomfortable with something, then of course, they shouldn't do it. People should be able to make their own choices without risk of judgment.

That being said, there is always a very small danger when adjusting the neck that something could go wrong. Of course, the danger is probably similar when playing contact sports.
Totally. I mean, I had my wisdom teeth out and had to accept that there was a possibility that I would suffer nerve damage to my face and jaw. But that doesn't mean my dentist (or even all dentists) are quacks. :)

It's all about research. And absolutely people should be able to make their own choices ... without risking judgement or judging others.

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Photochick - FRIED TURKEY!!??? W T F! That's intense! Never heard of that lol. Is it a southern thing or something? :p Now you got me all curious, do you just stick a whole turkey in a deep fryer?

Here's a link to the guys web page: http://www.asaandrew.com/about.html

He is licensed in the State of Tennessee as a Chiropractic Physician.
I guess technically he's a doctor. I think his website is misleading in that he doesn't say that he's a chiro. Is this false advertising??????
I think most people reading what he has written there would think he's a medical doctor. What do you all think??

Photochick - FRIED TURKEY!!??? W T F! That's intense! Never heard of that lol. Is it a southern thing or something? :p Now you got me all curious, do you just stick a whole turkey in a deep fryer?
Oh my gosh. I can't believe you've never heard of them. They were all the rage a few years ago - people were getting them shipped from Louisiana and Texas for the holidays.

We've done them for years. They actually sell special fryers for them - a big round pot over a propane cooker. You prep your turkey, fill the fryer with peanut oil, and deep fry it. They actually do not come out greasy at all - the skin is crispy and dark, and the meat is incredibly juicy and tender and flavorful.

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/index.php?option=com_resource&controller=article&category_id=223&article=19903

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He is licensed in the State of Tennessee as a Chiropractic Physician.
I guess technically he's a doctor. I think his website is misleading in that he doesn't say that he's a chiro. Is this false advertising??????
If he's licensed by the state as a "physician" then it's no more false advertising than a psychologist (who has a PhD, but not an MD) calling himself "doctor".

No, I don't think it's false advertising.

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Oh my gosh. I can't believe you've never heard of them. They were all the rage a few years ago - people were getting them shipped from Louisiana and Texas for the holidays.

We've done them for years. They actually sell special fryers for them - a big round pot over a propane cooker. You prep your turkey, fill the fryer with peanut oil, and deep fry it. They actually do not come out greasy at all - the skin is crispy and dark, and the meat is incredibly juicy and tender and flavorful.

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/index.php?option=com_resource&controller=article&category_id=223&article=19903

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Wow, that sounds delicious! As far as I know, that rage hasn't hit Canada yet. And probably won't. (which is probably a good thing for my sake lol)

My family loves their chiropractors. They did their research first (and made sure the chiropractors they chose weren't claiming to cure everything under the sun, and had good referrals).

I won't consider a chiropractor, because I've had two spinal issues that in researching, I've found are in particular, too highly associated with bad chiropractic outcomes. One was a type and location of disc herniation, that chiropractic treatments had a tendency to complicate (even potentially cause paralysis). I'm guessing that a good chiropractor would know this, and if I had gone would have turned me away from treatment after seeing my xrays (although I'm also sure I could have found a chiropractor willing to do the treatments anyway).

At one time, most physicians discouraged people from seeing chiropractors, but both in IL and in WI, both my husband and I have had family members who were referred to their chiropractor by their physician (although always a "spine only" chiropractor who was not claiming to cure allergies, etc).

So, I'm not suspicious of the entire profession, but I wouldn't take the risk for myself knowing what I do about my particular situation.

I don't think it's terribly difficult to find a bad chiropractor, or even a bad doctor for that matter, nor to find one who will tell you what you want to hear. People "treatment shop" all of the time, some of them properly informed, but many of them, not.

It's all about research. And absolutely people should be able to make their own choices ... without risking judgement or judging others.

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From what I've seen of your contributions on this matter, there hasn't been a lick of non-anecdotal evidence. Just story after story and ending each one with a jab about how we shouldn't judge an entire community based on just one bad experience.

I have done a lot of research....and a lot of the research that I've done on chiropractors makes me wary of their "philosophy". They favor themselves as shamans.

With that research, I've come to my own conclusions and have been judged.

Oh well.

From what I've seen of your contributions on this matter, there hasn't been a lick of non-anecdotal evidence. Just story after story and ending each one with a jab about how we shouldn't judge an entire community based on just one bad experience.
I haven't actually shared a story about chiros other than to express the opinion that I love mine. I've simply drawn some analogies and said that you cannot condemn a whole profession based on your personal experiences.

You also have not provided "a lick of non-anecdotal evidence" ... so you know ... take it for what it's worth.

I just don't believe in condemning an entire group of people based on the actions of a small handful.

Oh wait? Was that a jab? :rolleyes:

The truth here is that you KNEW what kind of response you were going to get when you posted your snarky little comment about "don't get me started on what I think of chiros - oy". You KNEW that you were pushign buttons and ruffling feathers and creating a little drama. And now you're all pissy and moany about the fact that others are responding to you using the same tactics you are.

If you didn't want the discussion, you shouldn't have started it, should you now?


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Where's the "peace" smiley?

Shall we agree to disagree ladies? We are so off topic anyhow.

:goodvibes

well that's great that you believe that, but what does any of it have to do with what i've said? my position is that i don't like chiros. why is anecdotal evidence insufficient for me to think that? i'm not saying you shouldn't like yours. i've had chiros tell me they can cure allergies by having me live on lemon juice, fix a pain in my hip by cracking my thoracic vertebrae, and cure god knows what by touching a spot on my forehead. oh yes, and let's not forget the time i was told they could stop my pre-term labor by putting me on my belly and cracking my back. are you telling me that if this represented your experiences that you would be running to the nearest chiro bench?

but you're right...this doesn't mean all chiros are bad. i understand that. so in light of this discussion, let me give you a few "facts".

chiros are not real doctors. they are not qualified to diagnose or cure disease. any md will tell you this. going to school for two years is hardly qualification for this. ****, they might as well have a huge warning sticker slapped on them saying, "not approved by the fda". chiros boast that they are better than doctors. they claim that they treat the whole patient, not just symptoms. well that true, they don't treat symptoms. they also brag that their methods have not changed since the founding of their "science", while medicine is continually changing. the explanation for this is simple. chiropractic is not science. it is based on a mystic belief that every physical ill is caused by a "subluxation", which is a esoteric word made up for them. this means cracking the spine will restore the energy flow and thus the bodies natural health will return. this sounds good, until you see chiros who buy into this whole-heartedly and kill people who have heart attacks by cracking their backs instead of sending them into the emergency room. check the literature, these stories are everywhere. the good news is....not every chiro is so brainwashed. some actually see it for what it is....a series of techniques to adjust the spine....not be a cure-all. my husband had a chronic back problem for years. his chiro was convinced he could cure him. after three months or so and no cure, he decided to go to a sports therapist. it turns out the problem was more than just an out of plan vertebrae. who'd a thunk it? it required deep tissue massage to fix. now he is pain-free.

the point to this is....if you need a back crack....go to a chiro. if you have a medical problem....go to a doctor.

you drew analogies for you, let me draw some of my own: how much would you trust your auto mechanic if every time you brought your car in for work done he would say, "it's having problems, eh? sounds to me like you need an alignment."


oh and yes, i did know what kind of response i would get....just more of the same. although i was a bit surprised by the attitude. *reeow*

also, miss zenor has a good point. agreeing to disagree works for me. i have far too much laundry to fold to spend all day doing this.

you drew analogies for you, let me draw some of my own: how much would you trust your auto mechanic if every time you brought your car in for work done he would say, "it's having problems, eh? sounds to me like you need an alignment."I say "wow, that mechanic is bad" and then I would find a new mechanic who knew what he was talking about.

I wouldn't go on a message board and make comments about how all mechanics are fakes and "quacks" and then get annoyed when someone called me on it. ;)

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I say "wow, that mechanic is bad" and then I would find a new mechanic who knew what he was talking about.

I wouldn't go on a message board and make comments about how all mechanics are fakes and "quacks" and then get annoyed when someone called me on it. ;)

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I got annoyed at your attitude, not the comment. Am I having this same conversation with anybody else that said they liked their chiro? no.

What if you got that same answer from all the mechanics in town? What if you had tried getting it aligned and the problem was still there? Would you continue spending hundreds upon hundreds of dollars just to get the same answer....or would you eventually just go to the dealership (doctor if you're not following the analogy) and get a real answer?

Also, I would appreciate you to point out where I said that every single one of the chiropractors on this planet were quacks. If you can't, I would appreciate you not putting words in my e-mouth.

What if you got that same answer from all the mechanics in town? What if you had tried getting it aligned and the problem was still there?That's simply ridiculous. The "slippery slope" argument doesn't hold here. You cannot say that you'd get the same answers from "every mechanic" in town, any more than you can say you'd get the same treatment from "every chiropractor in town". And if you get it aligned and it still doesn't fix it, then as a smart consumer, you'd start looking for another answer.

But as a smart consumer, you also don't take your car to a tire place and ask them to fix your air-conditioning, right? So why would you go to a chiro and expect them to fix something that's not muscular/skeletal?

Also, I would appreciate you to point out where I said that every single one of the chiropractors on this planet were quacks.
Quote you: "we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors"

Quote zenor: "Now, now, not all of them are quacks!"
Your response: "ok, ok, I'll give that to you on Naturopaths....but I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors".

Busted. ;)

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That's simply ridiculous. The "slippery slope" argument doesn't hold here. You cannot say that you'd get the same answers from "every mechanic" in town, any more than you can say you'd get the same treatment from "every chiropractor in town". And if you get it aligned and it still doesn't fix it, then as a smart consumer, you'd start looking for another answer.

But as a smart consumer, you also don't take your car to a tire place and ask them to fix your air-conditioning, right? So why would you go to a chiro and expect them to fix something that's not muscular/skeletal?


Quote you: "we don't even need to start a discussion on what I think of naturopaths and chiropractors"

Quote zenor: "Now, now, not all of them are quacks!"
Your response: "ok, ok, I'll give that to you on Naturopaths....but I'm not budging a bit on chiropractors".

Busted. ;)

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When I had a serious hip/lower back problem I went to every chiropractor in town....each one tried to "crack it out of me"....I finally visited an actual doctor (which I also have a problem with because I'm slow to trust an md as well) and found out that there were problems that had nothing to do with a bad alignment of my back. Slippery slope or not, that was the way it was. I'm glad your city has chiropractors that aren't completely caught up in the chiropractic philosophy....it would serve our town well to find one.

Also, that quote is a bit dubious. I never said that I thought all chiros were quacks, I just said that I wasn't budging on my opinion of them. I can't help that you misunderstood what I was getting at. You cannot just smash two quotes together from two different people and expect them to mean something.


and there are plenty of tire places that offer air conditioning services as well. I thought possibly one of the chiropractors in town was a kin to one of those places....unfortunately, no.

You cannot just smash two quotes together from two different people and expect them to mean something.
I didn't just "smash two quotes together". This is a comment and your DIRECT RESPONSE. Quoted.

I'm done with this conversation however. You baited people into responding and got what you wanted. Now you're trying to backtrack on what you said because someone has called you on it. ;)

Enjoy the rest of your day.

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I still fail to see how my direct response that included nothing to the tune of "all chiropractors are quacks" just "I'm not budging on chiropractors" has anything to do with what you are saying. I'm sorry that I didn't elaborate on my response to Zenor better and include a footnote about my not budging on chiropractors meant that I wasn't budging in my opinion of them and the fact that I wouldn't visit them again. This isn't the first time that someone has been misunderstood or misinterpreted on the net. It's too bad someone doesn't invent a sarcasm font. The world would be a much easier place.

I digress. Think what you will, I've been in enough debates to know that when one person holds a position on something, it is very hard to turn them away from that position despite whatever evidence one might bring.

Enjoy your day as well. ;)

Let's agree to disagree and move on :) Wasn't this thread about olive oil? Please go back to topic :)