Weight and Resistance Training - Running and WL, can they be friends?




jamsk8r
03-09-2008, 01:04 PM
So, I'm reading this NROLW book, and am semi-devastated that he seems to be saying running (the steady state type, which I just got into and love) is like the evil arch-enemy of WL (which I really want to do). Am I reading that wrong? Do I have to choose one or the other? I'm just talking about 3ish miles of jogging, 3 days a week. I'll choose if I have to, but I was hoping they'd work together, because I really like them both. :?:


nelie
03-09-2008, 01:06 PM
Cheryl,

Did you read the part where he said 'if you want to do steady state....'

Where you do some sort of burst activity, then do your running.

Also, you could try doing intervals but intervals for 3 miles might be a bit much?

Azure
03-09-2008, 01:19 PM
I don't think he means that it's the "evil arch enemy" of weight loss; I think he means that it's great for cardiovascular health, and yes, it burns some calories, but if you want the most for your metabolic buck, lifting and HIIT should come first. Then, if you have time and want to, you can throw some steady state in. At least, that's how I took it. Is SS Cardio the most effective for fat loss? No. So, he advocates the types of exercises that are the most effective for fat loss (lifting heavy + HIIT), and puts things like SS Cardio on the back burner.

If you love to run, then run! Or, try to work intervals into your run (sprint-walk-sprint-walk, etc.) If you're going to follow NROL4W, then you can do the workouts as prescribed, and add the SS Cardio onto whatever is suggested if you have the time and energy. :)


jamsk8r
03-09-2008, 01:42 PM
Sorry, not weight "loss", weight lifting. He seems to be saying that when you go jogging or running at a steady pace, as opposed to intervals, that it has the opposite effect on your muscles that you are trying to achieve with weight lifting. I'm so confused. I figured the weight lifting would be good for building muscle (sorry if that's not the right term), increasing metabolism and longer fat burning, and the jogging (running later, I'm just not that fast yet, and all the runners say not to push the speed as a beginner) would be good cardio. I don't want the jogging to negate the lifting, though. Anybody here doing both with good results?

elisa822
03-09-2008, 01:58 PM
Well I'm no expert but I am in the same boat. I don't think you have to choose, unless you wanted to compete at either. I think you can be a recreational runner and a weight lifter with no problems. I don't think that the jogging will negate the benefits of the WL, I just think that based on NROLW, which I did read, they're assuming that you might not have time to devote to three days a week of both.

I can't see a problem alternating days with running and the lifting programs. There's been some discussion about, if you were to combine the two into one workout, which you do first. That's a different issue. Also, I think the point in the book is not that there is no benefit to steady state cardio, just that for maximum results there may be better options. Also he discusses how the human body was designed for quick bursts rather than longer distances of running. If, like me, you're really looking at only 3 miles, I'm not sure it really fits.

Bottom line is do what you like and no, I don't see one negating the other, specifically on separate days. I think you'll find a few of us here who do both.

Hope this helps and good luck.

:D

Lydia227
03-09-2008, 02:19 PM
Hi Cheryl, :wave:

I've done both, combining running with weight lifting with some success. I accomplished this during last summer before the book was released so I guess I didn't know any better. :rofl:

Honestly though I struggled with which days to run so that my legs would get a rest after a heavy leg day. What I ended up doing was running after doing leg work but only for about a mile or a mile and a half. It was kind of "tacked on" to my workout at the end of my lifting session before I would do core work, stretches, cooldown. My main cardio was still HIIT on the elliptical for half an hour prior to my lifting sessions.

I think that if you enjoy running you should run. If you enjoy lifting by all means do that too. Is there a specific magic formula? I don't know and if there is it will work differently for me than it will for you. The one thing that I know for certain is that the best exercise is the one that makes you feel GREAT while you are doing it. It's the one that gives you that endorphin rush and makes you want to go back and do it again tomorrow. I really wouldn't look at it as an this or that kind of thing. What I have chosen to do at times is make one aspect take a little more priority or focus, in this case lifting, for a while and then when I need to change my workout again, place my focus upon running for a while. (Actually, this decision has kind of been made for me since I had both of my menisci partially removed this fall, no real distance running for me. But I can still put in a couple of miles here and there.)

Good luck and happy lifting/running!

jamsk8r
03-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Thank you all for the helpful replies!

I have a possible workout plan brewing. Part of my problem is that I was already skating 3 nights a week, dance skating, which, despite the fact that I've been skating for over 36 years, and dance/jamskating for 4 years, is still a buttkicking workout (or legs and ankles, anyway).

I was hoping to be able to put the jogging and weight lifting together one day, in the morning, to leave as much rest time as possible (to recover from the lifting) before my next skating session. The skating practices are fixed, because other folks are involved, so I can't change those, otherwise I could do some type of 2 days on, 1 day off schedule.

So, here's the plan, at least for starters:
10 mins jogging for warmup.
NROL workout
possible 10-15 mins SS jogging, assuming the body is willing, lol.*
(*replace with intervals when NROL workouts get to that phase)
10+ mins walking for the cool down

approx 34-36 hrs rest before next skating workout
skate practice 2-4 hrs (2 are 2 hrs, one a week is 4 hrs)
approx 10 hrs rest before next NROL workout

like this:
Tu/Th/Sat (mornings) jog/NROL
Wed/Fri/Sun (eves) Skate
Mondays OFF/rest day

Does that sound remotely like a good schedule?

Mel
03-09-2008, 03:19 PM
As long as your talking about three mile jogs or run, I don't see a problem. HIIT will burn calories faster and increase the "afterburn", but a 3 mile jog isn't incompatible with your goals. What is incompatible is long distance/endurance running.

From personal experience, building and maintaining muscle and running long distances are incompatible. Four years ago I decided to run the Disney marathon. Over the course of training (4 months), I lost about 3 pounds but my body fat increased. I still lifted and ate clean- probably not enough carbs for the running, but certainly enough to maintain the lifting. LONG steady state cardio (my long runs each Saturday were 2-2/12 hours of mind numbing boredom...) ate muscle, leaving me fatter.

It makes scientific sense, but not intuitive. Most elite marathoners look like beef jerky, but I actually got fatter :crazy:

Mel

Sheila53
03-09-2008, 04:20 PM
I only know what works for me. I run three miles a couple of days a week (steady state), do other aerobic activities the rest of the time (HIIT) and lift weights 5-6 days a week. My body fat percentage has gone down, and my weight has sort of stabilized (when I eat clean). I like running, too, and, for me, the combo has worked to give me a shape that I like.

ennay
03-09-2008, 04:42 PM
I run...a lot... marathon length and did not lose any muscle mass in the process and lost 40+lbs of FAT. Actually without doing any structured WL I gained 3 lbs of lean mass. Not a lot in terms of weight lifting gains, but certainly not eating my muscles.

I now run and lift and I see no inherent incompatibility. I am making strides in my lifting at about the pace I would expect given the time I allocate to it.

jamsk8r
03-09-2008, 06:21 PM
I guess it all comes down to "what it's all for," and where I want to go with the lifting and the running. Right now, I just want to "move more" than I did before, and I'm trying to find things I'd enjoy, so I can stick to them. I'll give it a try, and see how I do. Thanks for all of your opinions and suggestions!

Lifeguard
03-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Another angle is that a lot of the criticism I've seen about a lot of ss running is that it tends to make people prone to overuse injuries which can sometimes sideline you altogether.

For me the news that HIIT is more effective was super 'cause ss has always been ridiculously boring & difficult for me to stick too - lol!

Depalma
03-09-2008, 10:02 PM
When you WL and do endurance running, you are confusing the body. It is not exactly sure what to adapt to. For endurance running, you don't need a lot of upper body strength, in fact, it is easier if the body doesn't have to lug around that muscle that it doesn't need. Fat is also a major source of fuel for endurance running, so once you start getting relatively lean, it may try to hold on to that precious fuel source and burn that burdensome upper body muscle instead.

When you weight lift, you are telling the body " more muscle please". The body is confused. What do you want it to do? It will look for a middle ground between these to competing goals meaning that you are not going to get optimal results in either direction.

This is more of an issue when you are relatively lean. When the body has plenty of fat stores, it won't try to conserve that fuel source as much and won't be as quick to turn to your muscle. Still far from optimal, but it all depends on your goals. If you really enjoy running, is giving it up worth it to eke out a bit more muscle gain. Probably not.

It also depends on what type of running you are doing. Running 3 miles steady state on a treadmill is one thing. Running outside is another. Street running is a lot less steady state than a lot of people think. Not only is it likely that you will ease up at times and speed up at others as you tire/recover a bit without even realizing, but you will get brief breaks when running downhill and stopping to let cars go by. You will also probably get the heart rate pumping quite high running uphills, against the wind, sprinting to avoid getting hit by cars, and sprinting to get away from that cute little pit bull down the street that just wants to play. In which case, you are working anaerobically much of the time and the adaptations will be much different.

Can they be friends. Not best friends, but certainly not enemies. Think back to the old show, "The Odd Couple." Opposites who can be friendly or could want to kill each other, but they definitely can coexist.

Bottom line is do what you enjoy.

sportmom
03-09-2008, 11:37 PM
Interesting thread, thanks all!

JoyfulVegGirl
03-10-2008, 03:20 AM
I'm doing the same thing, running and continuing my weight training at the same time. I'm just as addicted to running now as I am to WT, so I'd hate to have to give one up ;) So far, the WT has been supplementing the running, and I haven't seen any conflicts.

My way of thinking about it is that my body will never be in one constant state of being. When it comes to fitness, for me, there's no finish line. Once I meet my goals I make new ones and my body adapts to fit those new circumstances. If I ever choose to run a marathon I won't be doing it to lose body fat, I'll be doing it for the personal challenge involved and for the love of the sport. If I lose a bit of muscle mass doing so then I'm sure I will be able to gain it back with time. By the same token, if I choose to set a goal of lifting x amount of weight by x date, then I might lose some endurance with running but that's fixable too. If I choose to rock climb, kayak, swim, etc...

Anything that makes you motivated to work out is good. Do what's keeping you interested and what you love to do.

Of course, this might not be the best thing to post in LWL. Please don't shoot me :D

ennay
03-10-2008, 03:45 AM
The truth is running and WL are farther apart emotionally than they are physically. By this I mean die hards on both sides of the fence take extreme examples of why the other is bad for you, will hurt your progress to your goals, etc and extrapolate them out to cover the general population with very little evidential support in that population.

I've been a lifter, I've been a runner. The science spouted in both camps is remarkable in that they disagree so vehemently with approximately equal certainty and proof.

In many ways the philosophical debate is much like political ideology....while the pundits make it seem like liberal and conservative is an either/or proposition, the reality is the vast majority of people are a bit of a mixture.

It is a continuum, NOT an either/or. On the one end of the spectrum you have elite endurance athletes. Notice the word elite. Elite endurance athletes do a large amount of ss cardio, a decent amount of HIIT and a small amount of resistance training ...on the other end of the spectrum are world class body builders who do a large amount of resistance training, a decent amount of HIIT and a small amount of ss.

Most of us are not going to be world class on either end of the spectrum. Pick the point on the spectrum you want to be most like and work from there. As a normal human striving for balance is often wiser. Both extremes have some long term potential issues.

As to this particular question. 3 miles of ss cardio is not going to burn muscle. It just isnt. The body burns muscle only under duress...and while the pundits can argue where exactly that duress starts, even a relatively untrained person carries enough glycogen (carbohydrate) in their muscles to fuel 3 miles of running without needing to tap other sources of fuel.

as an aside...the notion that marathoners need to have a higher % body fat to fuel the run has largely been debunked (and trust me runners liked that theory more than lifters ) A marathon requires roughly 2600 calories - a trained endurance athlete stores roughly 1500-2000 calories of glycogen & carbs in their system...requiring ~ 600-1000 calories from fat to finish the race... 1/3 of a lb. Not all that significant. A female athlete is more limited by needing to maintain menstruation to protect bone...regardless of sport.

midwife
03-10-2008, 09:04 AM
This is a really interesting discussion. I've been toying with a marathon in October, but I am also not sure how much my body needs to be shocked this year. I asked my trainer about training for a marathon and if it would be too much with the new weight lifting stuff and she said no. She says she trains marathoners too.

But like ennay pointed out, I will never be in the category of athlete where one strategy will kill the other. I am no elite athlete. :-) I am enamored of HIIT, mainly for saving time. If I can get a better cardio workout in 30 minutes vs my usual 60 minutes, I am on it! How will that translate to my longer runs as I work up to a 20 miler? I dunno! I do need plenty of weight bearing exercise for my bones as well.

I like learning about the science behind different types of exercises, but I'm of the theory that I take what makes sense to me and then tweak as necessary when required.

The nutrition piece is interesting though, when you consider what my dd eats for carb loading the days before a distance race compared to my own carb intake. Of course she is 15 and a string bean....

Depalma
03-10-2008, 09:25 AM
Midwife,

Don't worry, as Ennay already pointed out, Marathon runners do not just do steady state training. They train through about every heart rate zone imaginable. You will be training outside of your normal race pace the majority of the time. You will be doing some sprint intervals, some tempo runs at a pace a bit greater than your race pace, and some fartlek training where you just mix in a variety of paces in a random manner.

Don't confuse someone who does regular steady state cardio such as running 5-10 miles daily with the training of a distance runner. They are not the same thing.

Also, as I already said, street running, even a more controlled setting like a race where cars and such are taken out of the equation, hills and wind and such make this type of running much less steady state than one would think.

midwife
03-10-2008, 01:05 PM
Thanks, Depalma!

Lifeguard
03-11-2008, 12:05 AM
A marathon requires roughly 2600 calories - a trained endurance athlete stores roughly 1500-2000 calories of glycogen & carbs in their system...requiring ~ 600-1000 calories from fat to finish the race... 1/3 of a lb. Not all that significant. A female athlete is more limited by needing to maintain menstruation to protect bone...regardless of sport.

I don't know why but seeing that a whole marathon only burns 2600 calories makes running so much less appealing to me - lol!!! I think I just look for any excuse not to have to do it!

ennay
03-11-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't know why but seeing that a whole marathon only burns 2600 calories makes running so much less appealing to me - lol!!! I think I just look for any excuse not to have to do it!

LOL...anyone who is looking to run a marathon to lose weight would be better off looking elsewhere. You have to want to run a marathon to RUN A MARATHON. Somewhere between a 10K and Half-Marathon the weight loss & health benefits of running start to taper off.

nelie
03-11-2008, 12:36 PM
training for the marathon though and the marathon itself would burn lots of calories.

I started thinking about running but i've given up that idea. My knees already have issues.

jamsk8r
03-11-2008, 06:18 PM
I think I've got it now. I was confused because the whole "running eats the kind of muscle you're trying to build in weight lifting" slant seemed to be saying that ANY amount of SS exercise (like running that isn't HIIT) was considered "endurance" training. But, what you all are saying is that running a few miles a few times a week, though it is SS, is not considered endurance training...correct?

I should have been able to pick up the difference from the other sources I was reading, but I didn't. Probably just information overload on my part. I'm relieved to know I can keep running and still do the weight training. :woohoo:
Thanks for all your help!

ennay
03-11-2008, 10:50 PM
I feel like I am hijacking the WL forum...stealth running propagandist ;)

catabolic state ummm...disagreements aside...:dizzy:

Endurance training - what the WL people call steady state, (oddly the term steady-state has a different meaning in the running world and is not an endurance workout...just to REALLY confuse things!) involves not only doing cardio at one pace but at a fairly low heart rate. Endurance training spends the bulk of the time in a lower heart rate zone than would be optimal for pure weight loss. Endurance training also implies that you are running beyond the body's stored glycogen sources. The body will burn stored glycogen before it will burn other sources of energy. It is generally felt that most people have around 90 minutes of glycogen (how much depends on what heart rate you are working at, and how well you store glycogen...which is part of the training response).

So 3 miles isnt going to be getting your muscles depleted or stressed to the point where they would need extra fuel. Which also means that you dont need any special "recovery" foods, fluids, or other expensive ways to sell you calories after a 3 mile run.

Mel
03-12-2008, 07:22 AM
ennay- You certainly aren't hijacking the thread! We all (ok, most of us) do cardio of some sort and I bet running or the elliptical is the most common. This morning I did 2 miles running and 20 minutes on a recumbent bike.

I have no fear that my 2 mile run will eat muscle, nor my 45 minute elliptical sessions. It was those grueling 18-20 miles run that are a whole different ball game.

Also, I think we a nitpicking about issues that really only apply to the fringes of our membership. In the past, my goal has been to look like a bodybui8lder/figure competitor. Yours seems to be long distance running. Both of us have pretty much met our weight loss goals and moved on to other fitness goals while maintaining our weight. For those of you whose goal is weight loss and health, and still have a way to go, I'm not sure that this is an issue at all. Running 3 miles is great! HIIT is great! Lifting is wonderful. Keep a sense of perspective :)

Mel

MariaMaria
03-12-2008, 12:54 PM
So 3 miles isnt going to be getting your muscles depleted or stressed to the point where they would need extra fuel. Which also means that you dont need any special "recovery" foods, fluids, or other expensive ways to sell you calories after a 3 mile run.

Ennay said what I (longtime runner) was going to.

Also, you don't need to refuel yourself mid-3 miles.

training for the marathon though and the marathon itself would burn lots of calories.

Training at that level also greatly increases hunger. The overwhelming majority of runners who train for a marathon do not lose weight in the process. The weight comes off during the time when they're getting fit enough to begin marathon training (i.e., running shorter distances consistently for at least a year before beginning training).

ennay
03-12-2008, 01:40 PM
Training at that level also greatly increases hunger. The overwhelming majority of runners who train for a marathon do not lose weight in the process. The weight comes off during the time when they're getting fit enough to begin marathon training (i.e., running shorter distances consistently for at least a year before beginning training).

....and often comes back post marathon when you have been accustomed to maintaining on 3000 a day and suddenly you arent running 50 miles a week anymore. :dizzy: Marathoning is crazy...but I am addicted.