Weight and Resistance Training - Does the cardio/wl first question have to do with your goals?




sportmom
01-02-2008, 03:23 PM
From the discussion in the thread "Intimidated" I did a little googling to see if we could answer the question as to why wl is better than cardio first. And I found this article, which actually makes me rethink it. Or is this related to the title of maximum growth? Would a goal of maximum fatloss mean something else? Altho the upped metabolism from cardio first would seem to apply to fatloss as well. Hmmm.... What do our experienced people think?

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=223


elisa822
01-02-2008, 03:34 PM
Really interesting and well written article. I'm also curious for some opinions of the "more experienced"!

:D

WaterRat
01-02-2008, 04:02 PM
Hmmm, in the last paragraph it all comes down to what's been said before:

No sequence is right for everyone. The most important thing is to include aerobic (cardio) and weight training in your exercise program. People usually don't adhere to overly intense programs, so design a reasonable exercise regimen that you'll do consistently. The old saying that "95 percent of success in life is showing up" is true for building muscle and strength, and cutting fat.


JerseyGirl69
01-02-2008, 06:22 PM
I go by my trainer's example. He emphasizes WL with cardio as a component. He explained it as bulking up first and then trimming down.

He lost 180lbs and you would never know he was ever overweight...

As for why cardio after WL, if that's being asked, it has to do with what each do for the body. Laymen's terms--if you do cardio before WL, the gain from WL will be nixed and have no place to go.

mandalinn82
01-02-2008, 06:31 PM
As for why cardio after WL, if that's being asked, it has to do with what each do for the body. Laymen's terms--if you do cardio before WL, the gain from WL will be nixed and have no place to go.

Can you clarify this? I'm trying to figure out what you were trying to say.

The best program is one you will do. For me, I really like weight training - it is a reward for getting my cardio done on days when I really don't want to do cardio. So I do my cardio first, THEN my weight training. And THAT is what works best for me. If I did my weight training first, I'd probably skip the cardio...not good.

This is like the "morning or evening" exercise question. I think the answer is "whenever you will do it"...all of this advice about what order to do things, what exercises are best, what time you "should" exercise, etc...they just discourage me (ie, if I can't do exercise "right", I might as well not bother).

elisa822
01-02-2008, 06:37 PM
I completely agree that if one way works best for you, go with that. From what I'm now reading, there may be some opinions as to why one order might be better than the other depending on your goals but it would seem that the benefits don't outweigh the costs if you just end up skipping one.

I've done strength training after running or a spin class and admittedly my legwork suffers a bit but now I mostly do a 1.5 run followed by upper body and that feels like a good combo for now.

:D

Shy Moment
01-02-2008, 06:58 PM
I was curious about this. Is there a certain order I should do things? Right now I do a 1 mile walking/aerobic video in the morning and then a 2 mile walking/aerobic video in the evening. About an hour or so later do a couple sets of resistance training. Wondered if I shouldn't be doing the resistance training before the evening walking/aerobic video. Guess what you all are saying is that it doesn't really matter. JUST DO IT. I have to say that to myself, jeeze Rennie just do it lol.

Sheila53
01-02-2008, 08:24 PM
Laymen's terms--if you do cardio before WL, the gain from WL will be nixed and have no place to go.

Not sure what this means either?? I generally do cardio before weight lifting, and have seen a steady reduction in body fat and an increase in muscle definition and my ability to lift heavier, which is what I'm going for.

sportmom
01-02-2008, 09:23 PM
I really just wanted the opinions on the science behind the article. And if there's a difference b/w maximum muscle growth vs maximum fat loss. I thought that's what I got from the article and wondered if anyone else agreed with that or took something else from the article. I'm sure many people are tired of us debating the details and wanting us all to just move on and just do it, but I enjoy the discussions we all have just as much.

Mel
01-03-2008, 07:31 AM
Fran- I'll try to read it tonight. :)

Mel

JerseyGirl69
01-03-2008, 09:48 AM
I understand that you have to do what works for you, and if it means you'd skip a workout if you didn't do it the way you want, well something's better than nothing.

But beyond that, there is a point to what works best for the body. You should do cardio and weight lifting on opposite days or if you're going to do both on the same day, such as you've broken your weight lifting by body part and aren't taxing the same muscles every day...and because of that you want to include daily cardio...weight lifting should come first. If you do cardio first, it should just be a light moderate warmup and nothing more.

Why? Glycogen stores (ding ding ding). Glycogen stores are stores of energy that your body uses during weight training and cardiovascular exercise. During weight training glycogen stores are the only energy source used. Completing your cardiovascular routine before weight training will substantially deplete your energy (glycogen) stores needed to complete a proper weight training program. Also, completing your weight training before your cardiovascular program significantly decreases you glycogen stores. So, when you begin your cardiovascular training your body burns less glycogen and more of your stored fat. Doing weight training first optimizes fat burning stages.

That's my take on it.

Mel
01-03-2008, 09:25 PM
I just read it. My take on the article is that it's a summary of a lot of short-term studies, which they state at the outset don't prove anything in the longterm.

What JerseyGirl said is 100% true. To get the maximal benefit of the weight workout, you should be doing it when your glycogen levels are at their peak. Cardio should deplete glycogen completely. Lots of shoulds. In the real world, it comes down to 3 factors: what are your goals? What are you willing to do or what do you enjoy? and how much time do you have?

If you see your weight session as a reward for having slogged away for 30 minutes on the treadmill and you would NEVER do cardio otherwise, obviously cardio first is your best approach. If your goal is maximum muscle growth and you will do the cardio later, that should be your sequence. If your goal is maximum muscle growth along with fat loss and you have the time and are willing, double session are the best approach. In that situation, it really doesn't matter which you do first as long as you have a few hours and a meal or two between the sessions.

A lot of people alternate days and get great results. Remember, clean nutrition is the key. You can do the most intense workouts possible and load of cardio, but if you aren't eating right and in a caloric deficit, you aren't going to get the results you want unless your goal is powerlifting. If it is, do minimal cardio! If your goal is weight loss with some muscle building, do a fast paced lifting session which incorporates short periods of cardio. You won't get ripped, but you will lose fat.

Just for the record, I do about 45 minutes of cardio 5 mornings a week before work, then lift 4-5 days per week at lunch time. This works really well for me, and I'm actually fitter, leaner, and feel better than when I worked full time in a gym and did cardio and lifting basically all day long.

Mel

mandalinn82
01-03-2008, 09:30 PM
Ah yes. We are talking IDEALS, not necessities.

I've made plenty of strength gains while doing my cardio first, though, so doing my weight training AFTER my cardio has in no way "cancelled out" all of the weight training effects. If I were intent on getting the absolute maximum effect, though, I might consider changing up the order. For me and my goals, it'd make no sense!

sportmom
01-03-2008, 09:46 PM
If you see your weight session as a reward for having slogged away for 30 minutes on the treadmill and you would NEVER do cardio otherwise, obviously cardio first is your best approach. If your goal is maximum muscle growth and you will do the cardio later, that should be your sequence. If your goal is maximum muscle growth along with fat loss and you have the time and are willing, double session are the best approach. In that situation, it really doesn't matter which you do first as long as you have a few hours and a meal or two between the sessions.



Thanks Mel! That 3 pt summary was exactly what I was looking for as a quick checklist. I think since I w/o at home and have the option, I'm going to try for the split session in the same day. Cardio I think early morning, and then lifting in the evenings. (Not that I'm copying anyone's successful routine ;)!)

kaw
01-04-2008, 06:19 AM
Remember, clean nutrition is the key. You can do the most intense workouts possible and load of cardio, but if you aren't eating right and in a caloric deficit, you aren't going to get the results you want unless your goal is powerlifting.
Mel

So true. So sad, mind you, but also so true.

I'm still waiting for the ephedrine-laced peanut butter to hit the shelves.

(Not really.)

Kim

Mel
01-04-2008, 07:30 AM
lol, kaw! I think they took it off the shelves a few years ago!

When I saw that you had posted, I thought you were going to talk about the minimal cardio approach. I left that one out since most of our members aren't at that point, but a very few people can do intense weight lifting sessions and then just the minimal amount of cardio for heart health and be very successful.

Mel

JerseyGirl69
01-04-2008, 03:06 PM
And people t hought my schedule is nuts (up at 4, leave at 5, gym in a.m. then commute). You take the cake, Barbara.

kaw
01-04-2008, 05:50 PM
Mel: It's true that I've lost 20 pounds with minimal cardio. (Gah, I sound like a commercial!)

Then again, at one point in my life I lost 20 pounds doing cardio before weights. (I regained those pounds, but that wasn't the fault of the order of my exercise. It was dissertation-move-job-deepdishpizza-move-job-beer-pregnancy-boy.)

I can say that I've never lost 20 pounds with cardio alone. Not that it can't be done, just that I don't have the tolerance for cardio to do it.

My basic take? slight preference for weights before cardio - or, better still, weights and skip the cardio :) -- but, really, whatever gets you in the gym.

Have a great evening, everyone. Well, except Barbara, who is are already in bed. :)

Kim

sportmom
01-04-2008, 09:38 PM
I think Nelie was a successful wl / no cardio girl for awhile early in her journey too. I'm sure that she'll be pleased we were thinking about her while she was gone. ;)