General chatter - The need to reexperience pleasant experiences again and again. - rant essay




Greens
08-07-2007, 10:59 PM
This is something most weight loss plans ignore. When I have a pleasant food experience, I'm not satisfied. I want to experience it again either right away or in a little while, usually much too soon. My body doesn't have time to burn the calories off. When I diet, I just resist that urge. I keep careful track of what I eat. I exercise more. Eventually I get sick of it and revert to the much more comfortable original mode.

When I read about people who say they're trying to smother their pain or deal with old parental abuse, I think it's a load of bs. You can sit in a dark room without eating, you can drink or do drugs. We choose to eat. We might think about old slights and beatings, but that's just normal. Everybody does that when they're brooding and I'll bet thin people brood too.

It's all an excuse to indulge in food, drugs or whatever. Parental abuse, bully abuse has nothing to do with being fat. Being fat is all about wanting to reexperience good sensations and that's why exercise, common sense and deprivation eventually fail. People get sick of exercise. They get injured or their just isn't enough time to run that many miles. Deprivation works at first because the dieter enjoys the reward of seeing the pounds come off. They want to feel that thrill again and believe that it will work forever. Eventually they hit an appropriate weight and they realize they have to eat light for the rest of their lives just to stay thin. It seems like a gyp. There's no more dramatic weight drop for a reward. It's just maintenance. It might be healthy to be slim but the drama is gone.

The reason why there's a worldwide surge in obesity is modern life. Easy availablility of food. All kinds of devices to save us from physical labor. Modern marketing that preys on weaknesses and chain restaurants that have evolved like reef lifeforms into moneymaking predators.

The only solution is to... go back to that really horrible existence when there was more starvation and restaurants served less tasty food and made you wait half an hour for your order, when you had to go inside and sit down and then go back and work in a forge or the fields. Back then they kept us alive with the promise of progress and a better, easier life. They didn't tell us we'd get fat. Even if they did, we thought that would be great. It is kind of great to be living now with computers, tv, dvd's to suck us in. It's just that it's so hard to deprive yourself of what you really want - more tacos.


JayEll
08-07-2007, 11:38 PM
Hey Greens! :wel3fc: Having a bad day, are we? ;)

I have to say, I do agree with much of what you've said. There are many "reasons" why people eat, but I think it comes down to the thing you pointed out--to have that pleasure again and again. Perhaps the pleasure offsets pain--I don't think people's reasons in that regard are totally bs--or perhaps it's just pleasure for its own sake. But whatever, we want more.

Of course, there is never enough if you're caught up in that trap.

My experience is that when I really stayed with my program, my food cravings and my desire to just keep eating went down a lot. I began to be satisfied with "normal" servings of food. Of course, there are some foods that evidently I need to limit a lot, as in, not have them around--but not so many as I used to.

I don't feel deprived eating the way I do now. I think that's important to say. I feel like I eat what I want--because what I want has changed! :yes: And, although some foods still can't be in my house, I pretty much can eat anything, as long as I plan around it. I can even have... a taco!

Yes, our fast-food culture does not help matters at all. Ads showing thin kids gobbling double cheeseburgers and fries... it's a lie! No one can do that for very long.

So, I hope that we don't have to go back to the "bad old days" of hard labor and bad food! Gee, that's so grim!

Really. Things can change for the better!

Jay

Robin41
08-07-2007, 11:41 PM
Sounds like somebody needs a hug.


Greens
08-08-2007, 12:48 AM
I think once you're fat, it's very easy to fall off that "satisfied with smaller portions" wagon. You might be a rare success. The general trend in society is towards more obesity even though we have sweeteners and fat with no calories and lots of knowledge and awareness. Obesity is kicking the western world's a**.

How can you tell if you're successful? You're no longer bothered by cravings and you're dead. You've reached the end of your life. Your obituary says, "He/she died thin and happy after a long life." Anything less is a prolonged diet, a potential success story. I'm thinking of Marlon Brando here. Pretty slim for a lot of years, but in the end he was fat. He'd fought it off for decades, probably for the sake of his career. His inner fat guy was finally released.

Earlier I said that the western world was losing. The east, until they started adopting our ways were successful without trying. 30 years ago, I don't think people in the east ever thought they might become fat, but today they are.

Physical work is not something normal people crave. Nobody dreams about tiny portions. The natural state of man is not adventure, it's sitting in a darkened room with familiar comforts, slightly intoxicated, munching on tasty things that never run out in a safe place where biting flies and other pests won't bother him. We need machines to do our exercise for us. We need a safe way to expel food without absorbing it's calories. Until then we are doomed.

aphil
08-08-2007, 09:22 AM
Ummmm....okay. :lol:

First of all, I don't believe that anyone is "doomed". It is all about personal choices, and it is all about your personal priorities.

When someone finally sees the light, and successfully loses weight and keeps it off-it is because they have finally had the epiphany that they have to undergo a lifestyle change, and that their priorities in life have to change. Losing weight is no different than going from a poor child to growing up to be a brain surgeon or CEO. You simply come to a point in your life where you decide that you are not happy with how things are, and you vow to do whatever it takes to get you where you want to be. Your priorities change. Your goals change. The things that were once more important to you change.

There are MANY successful people who have lost a lot of weight here and have kept it off successfully, and they are not doomed to be fat later like Brando. ;)

As with anything, it all comes down to your priorities. For these people, the donuts or tacos or whatever-while they still taste good and people still want them-don't mean as much as their improved life.

aphil
08-08-2007, 09:24 AM
I would also like to add that many people here DO enjoy exercise-because they have found the exercise "for them". I became a professional dancer, and dance instructor, for instance. A few of the moderators here actually became personal trainers, and others run or walk 5Ks and marathons.

A large part of it is branching out, and finding the exercise that works with them, and what they enjoy doing.

lumifan4ever
08-08-2007, 09:28 AM
okay....I am soooo depressed now...I think i'll run to kystals for some chilli cheese fries. No, No...I'm kidding!!! I do think I understand what you are saying about what do we do after all the good compliments stops coming our way...when there are no more pounds left to come off of our now thin frames? I dont' know. The last time I was overweight and lost all of the weight, it wasn't like i was really trying. I was in high school and i was the kid who was embarressed to eat in front of people. So, i skipped lunch. It was too early in the morning for me to eat so i just skipped breakfast. I would go out walking the neighborhood with my friends after my after school meal at my grandparents house, so it would be too late and i would just go to bed. I wasn't really trying to lose weight. I just did. I didn't step on a scale everyday to check my progress. It was like one day i woke up and realized i went from a size 12 to a size 3. No one ever told me how good i was looking as the 40 pounds came off of my 5'6" frame. It just was. this is the first time that i am purposely losing weight and getting compliments all the time. I don't know what i'm going to do once those stop. But i know it's not going to be start eating out everyday and putting the weight back on. I just can not see me doing that again. I know being thin isn't going to make me instantly happier in my life. It's not going to make great, wonderful things happen, but at least i will like the reflection in the mirror alot better. That will make me happy. And being more active with my kids will make me and then alot happier.

I hope you find a way to find happiness in your thin body without the constant "pleasure experience".

Did my post have anything to do with the original post?? Sometimes i get off on my own little thought train!! lol.

Greens
08-08-2007, 10:34 AM
Okay. Everybody is all happy with not eating much and exercising lots. *suddenly realizes he is surrounded by wide eyed, smiling people with faint X marked scars in the middle of their foreheads.*

TxBrittany
08-08-2007, 10:40 AM
No, you're just surrounded by people who have reaped the benefits of the support this site offers and realized that living a healthy lifestyle feels so much better than ANY food could taste!

rockinrobin
08-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Okay. Everybody is all happy with not eating much and exercising lots. *suddenly realizes he is surrounded by wide eyed, smiling people with faint X marked scars in the middle of their foreheads.*

Oh come on now. You tell me, what's the alternative? Should I go back to my miserable and unhealthy life? Uh-uh. No thank you. I am MUCH, MUCH happier now then when I was eating "tacos" all day long, every day. I am MUCH, MUCH happier now that I exercise as opposed to being horribly inactive. I am happier now that I have clothing that I love, fitting into spaces easily, that I have taken steps to improve my health, that I am living a much fuller, richer, more productive and all around happier life.

Any "so-called" sacrifices are nothing, NOTHING in comparison to what I've gotten back. The rewards outweigh the "so-called" sacrifices by about a trillion to one.

Lainey2
08-08-2007, 10:58 AM
I find the original post extremely insensitive. Many people develop eating disorders when they are very young as a coping mechanism. Eating is tied up with our emotions, so this makes sense. Those patterns tend to stay with you your entire life, so yes, many people do turn to the act of eating as a way to smother old pain, or to comfort themselves. It doesn't mean one is doomed to doing that forever. Once we realize what we're doing, then yes, we have a choice to make. I think we can see from all the above posts all of us are trying to make the right choices and are enjoying the rewards! Way to go chicks!

gailr42
08-08-2007, 11:00 AM
I think Aphil put it in a nutshell. There has to be some sort of epiphany, awakening - what ever you want to call it. Once this happens, pleasure seeking or capitalism or dislike of exersize can no longer affect you. You suddenly find that you know you can do it and you do.

My experience with epiphanies is with smoking and drinking. I know beyond doubt that this epiphany/awakening is why I no longer smoke or drink. You can say all you want about quitting smoking/drinking being easier than weight maintenance because "you still have to eat"...it really is the same thing.

This epiphany cannot be bottled and sold. It right there inside of you, if only you can access it. Wouldn't it be great if we could buy it off TV?

Greens, I think you might enjoy reading Thin for Life, by Ann Fletcher. She tells the stories of people who lost weight and kept it off. I feel inspired when I read from her books.

Also, I hear what you are saying and maybe you are right that 98% of the time this is what happens. But don't you want to be part of that 2%?

OOPS! I forgot to mention that what I say is JUST MY OPINION!

gailr42
08-08-2007, 11:07 AM
Greens, I don't get the reference to the "x" scars? Are you the "he"? I just assumed that you were female - only because most of us are. I wonder if perhaps you are playing "devil's advocate?" Your comments are certainly thought provoking.

LisaMarie71
08-08-2007, 11:09 AM
I should probably take more time to think about this before I respond, but I just want to say this: I've felt the same as you many times, and I've looked around at people who ALWAYS eat healthy food and exercise constantly and I've thought they must be wackos. I was in a different place in my life then, of course. I do have pleasant experiences with food, though. I don't just eat salad greens and cut out all high fructose corn syrup and salt and all that. I couldn't do it. I think it's great for the people who can, but I love all kinds of food and I'm not cutting them out of my life for good. I can enjoy them in moderation and still lose weight. I didn't know if that was true, but in this past year I've proven to myself that it is. So...yay, right? For example, today I'm going out with my husband and having a nice meal out. I'm going to eat pretty much whatever I want and enjoy it, and my body will probably burn off a considerable amount of it since I ran 13 miles this morning. I trade things off like that, and it makes me happy.

Your idea of pleasure changes, the healthier you get. I get so much more pleasure from a good long run than I ever got from a piece of cheesecake. The good news, however, is that I can have both. I just can't eat the cheesecake every day, and I can't eat it without doing the running. Honestly, though, I wouldn't trade the feeling of being healthy and fitting into a size 8 skirt for the first time since my teen years for any pleasurable eating experience in the world.

aphil
08-08-2007, 11:56 AM
Okay. Everybody is all happy with not eating much and exercising lots. *suddenly realizes he is surrounded by wide eyed, smiling people with faint X marked scars in the middle of their foreheads.*

No, that isn't what I was saying. I love to eat. If it were possible to eat whatever we wanted, all day long, not exercise, and stay thin and healthy-I am sure that we would all do it-but, we can't.

So, you have to choose what your priority is. Would I rather have the pleasure NOW of eating this sundae and sitting on my kiester, or would I rather stay/get slim, and get my weight off/keep my weight off?

Would I rather grow old and shrink down to 4'11" tall and end up with osteoprosis, or should I exercise?

Would I rather continue to eat badly, and end up with heart attacks, bypass surgeries, high blood pressure and meds for it, cancer, and so on and so forth-or would I rather eat better, exercise, and live a full life into my later years? (My mother works as a nurse, so seeing some of her patients REALLY motivates me!)

There are many of us who also have health issues that come into play as well-it isn't just about looking like a bikini model. I am borderline diabetic. My aunt was diabetic, and passed away at age 40 because she didn't stick with her diet and exercise plan, and keep her blood sugar levels under control.

Obesity raises health concerns for many, and those are often motivations for us.

Are we talking about an extra 20 pounds, or an extra 50, 80, 100+? What stage that you are in your weight struggles sometimes make your motivations different. Someone who needs to lose 10 pounds might just want to look and feel better. Someone trying to lose 50+ might have health issues, and a reduced quality of life that is also coming into play.

Yes, we all love food. No one is saying that we all love dieting and exercise-but it is the things that it produces, and the way that we feel healthwise-our energy levels, stamina, sleep quality, etc. that also make it much more worth it.


All I am saying is, if you choose to see the glass half empty, that is what it will be. If you continue to pick out everything negative, and say "I can't" then that is what it will be.

Everyone here has a rough day now and then, or a day that we succumb to a temptation. The key is to dust yourself off, and get back on track. We all have a glass of wine, or a bit of chocolate now and then-that is life. You just do it occasionally, with moderation, and you are okay. You have to learn the difference between moderation, and overindulgence.

Also, it is widely known that WOMEN are much more susceptible to emotional eating than men are-so, it isn't really fair to come here and say that emotional eating is a bunch of crap. ;) It can be an addiction, just like cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, and so forth-or even an addiction to gambling, or what have you.

I am not trying to get on your case...I am just saying that this is a wonderful SUPPORT site, and everyone is here to help everyone else during their good days, and their bad days-but it isn't really good to proclaim that we are all doomed to be fat. :lol: Especially since there are so many maintainers here who can prove otherwise. ;)

CousinRockingChair
08-08-2007, 12:20 PM
I disagree on ONE point only.

It isn't BS that people binge to smother pain. At all. Countless stories and case studies tell you - just visit something-fishy.org and read some really brave posts - that eating disorders ARE linked to pain. Because if they weren't , we;d all just be able to see food as fuel, and no-one'd have a problem.

I agree that some people arnt fat through emotional eating, some may be fat through modern availability of fast food etc. But you simply cannot ignore the fact that food problems are tied to eating. As another point to back this up, EDs are mainly (some men suffer, but mostly..) a female problem. Possibly then, unless all women are fat through laziness and simply *lovin ma food!"* its related to being a woman in western society....back to feelings again...

emily
xxx

JayEll
08-08-2007, 12:26 PM
My, what an interesting discussion!

Greens, tell us a bit about yourself. Are you overweight now? Do you have a weight loss goal? Often people include their information in their Signatures so others can see where they are coming from. :)

Going back to an earlier post--yes, we are all going to die. No matter what your religious or non-religious beliefs may be, we are all going to die. Me, I don't care what my corpse looks like. Who knows what shape I'll be in? But right now, in this moment, I want to feel relatively healthy and happy. I didn't feel like that at just under 200 pounds and 5'3".

Also, none of us here is brainwashed, as far as I know. Please don't insult our intelligence! ;) We are folks who are trying, and many of us have seen our programs work. Yeah, we're happy about that, right now!
:woohoo:

I might be a rare success--but you know what, you can be, too! I did exactly what you're talking about here--and many other members here have as well--lost, gained back, lost again, round and round... I try to think of it as a learning experience rather than my own darn cussed stupidity! :lol:

But you have raised some very interesting issues. Much to think about!

Jay

nelie
08-08-2007, 01:15 PM
When I was at my highest weight, eating what I wanted, I was miserable. I had stomach problems all the time, I had back problems and I had knee problems. I felt bloated all the time. I rarely have stomach problems these days, my back problems have disappeared and my knee problems are a rare occurrence (but they are damaged from the many years of being over 300 lbs)

I love food, I enjoy food but the food I enjoy has changed a bit because my taste buds have changed. I had ice cream the other day and my thought was "hmm this isn't that great" even though it was good for ice cream. Other foods that I used to eat often have the same reaction, the food just isn't as good as you remember it being.

I get a lot of pleasure from eating the healthier foods that I eat now rather than the foods I ate 3 years ago. I will even give myself permission to eat whatever I want, if I truly want it. Most often, I eat out of boredom though or eat because I think something will taste good or I just eat to eat.

I also love being active. I love being able to be active. I enjoy hiking and I'm astounded with my increased progress over when I was over 300 lbs. I recently got a dog and I am so excited to be able to walk her every morning and I can't wait to take her hiking with me. I love being able to lift weights and see how much strength can increase over time. I lived in a 4th floor apartment for 2 years without issue and now I live in a 3 floor town home and the stairs are a non issue.

I may not be thin but I feel so much better now than I did even 20 lbs heavier. The sense of accomplishment at losing weight is also a big boost to my over all self esteem. I used to really hate myself but it wasn't until I learned that I needed to support myself instead of down myself that I was able to make progress in losing weight. Overall, I enjoy life more now days more than ever.

Greens
08-08-2007, 01:46 PM
I disagree on ONE point only.

It isn't BS that people binge to smother pain. At all. Countless stories and case studies tell you - just visit something-fishy.org and read some really brave posts - that eating disorders ARE linked to pain. Because if they weren't , we;d all just be able to see food as fuel, and no-one'd have a problem.

I agree that some people arnt fat through emotional eating, some may be fat through modern availability of fast food etc. But you simply cannot ignore the fact that food problems are tied to eating. As another point to back this up, EDs are mainly (some men suffer, but mostly..) a female problem. Possibly then, unless all women are fat through laziness and simply *lovin ma food!"* its related to being a woman in western society....back to feelings again...

emily
xxx


I'm sensing that the idea of loving food and the type of people that love food are repellent to you. It's not enough that they love their treats, they have to have suffered abuse to turn themselves into big, flabby eyesores. I think this is related to the conspiracy types that just can't believe Oswald was a nut who acted alone. People who blame it on pain are really blaming other people for their problem. It's too painful for them to admit that they just can't resist ice cream and goulash but that's what it really is.

Animals get treated like crap all the time. They're injured. No one takes care of their wounds. They get beat up in fights looking for mates. They don't eat themselves to death because of some lingering psychic pain from when they were young. But put in a raccoon McDonalds and give em a lifetime pass to eat whatever they want, as much as they want and watch them balloon. Teach them to read and write and they'll go to the library, read some of that crap about self medicating with food and pretty soon you'll have books written by fat raccoons telling all about their anguished lives and abusive upbringing.

aphil
08-08-2007, 02:03 PM
Okay...no one is saying that people don't eat out of pure pleasure. What some of us are saying is that eating disorders-from the spectrum of anorexia all the way across the board to uncontrollable binge eating-DOES exist.

It was the original post where you said that it was "b.s." that was causing people to speak up. You were generalizing that eating disorders were bogus, as well as other addictions like alcoholism, etc.

You are also using the term abuse a lot coupled with eating disorders. Not all eating disorders are a result of abuse. Again, that is a generalization. There are many anorexics, bulimics, binge eaters, gamblers, and cigarette smokers who were never abused. Emotional eating, not eating, or other forms of addiction are not all because of the emotion "pain". Sometimes the trigger is stress, boredom, habit, etc. There are many, many things in play. Not all people eat, drink, gamble, shop, smoke, or what have you for the same reason. Addictions are complusions that have various causes, unqie to the person.

You can't generalize everyone. That is the point. Everyone's frustrations, triggers, and addictions are different. Some people simply eat a bit too much at each meal, causing an extra 20 pounds over the course of a few years. That isn't an eating disorder-that is simply needing to cut back a bit. Other people have issues where they strictly watch their food intake for weeks or months, and then succumb to a binge that can equal 3,000-4,000 calories in one sitting, and they can't control it. It isn't about just liking the taste of food-it is an episode where the person feels out of control.




Also, you have to compare apples with apples, not apples and oranges. If you have any religious beliefs at all-and I am not talking just about Christianity, but nearly every major religion-it recognizes us, as humans, that our ability to raltionalize, think ahead towards the future rather than just the "right now", the ability to know right from wrong and have moral beliefs and values, think of others before ourselves, and other things like this-are what separate us from the animals. All animals are unique in the way that they are to be genetically-some female spiders eat their mates after mating with them...male seahorses are the only species that do the "mother" role. Birds regurgitate food into their babies mouths. They are not people.
I value animals greatly, but you can't compare us to them.


I have some questions. Are you here for weight loss support? Do you truly want to lose weight? What are your frustrations with your weight loss personally? How much are you wanting to lose? How are you trying to do it? Are you here for yourself truly, or just to get everyone's skirts in a bunch?

CousinRockingChair
08-08-2007, 02:19 PM
I firmly believe and stand by all I've written from my experiences and others. Of course, my opinions may change someday. Not today though!

The animal bit seems a little absurd..I'll just say "I agree to disagree".

I love food, and it doesn't repel me that others would at all. There's a reason I sometimes stuff my face and other times I don't though. I always enjoy eating ice cream (unless I'm ill) - the simple difference is, sometimes I enjoy eating it from hunger, sometimes from emotional problems.

But I'm not fat and flabby. I'm not sure therefore its a black and white issue at all. I can binge, I can starve, I enjoy food in general, but my emotions do play a part..sorry!

emily
xxx

TxBrittany
08-08-2007, 02:23 PM
I'm going to agree that the animal argument you used is bogus. That's not even logical. And I'm also going to ask, why exactly are you here?

2Fat4myJeans
08-08-2007, 02:49 PM
Hmmm.

For one, I guess I somewhat I agree. When I was struggling with an eating disorder, it made me irritated that my therapist tried to pin it on my sexual abuse as a child, or from the fat comments my parents used to make. But I always knew - and still maintain - that starving myself or purging food was a conscious choice I made EVERY single time I did it. I didn't feel sorry for myself. I knew exactly what I was doing each time I did it, and I knew exactly the consequences I would get from it. I still chose to do it, regardless.

Essentially, I chose to overeat and to stop taking care of myself, and I went the other way on the scale. Now, I have to pay for my actions, just as I did when I had an eating disorder.

I understand where you are coming from. I really cannot stand entitlement attitudes.

Everybody has choices. And I don't think we're this way because of capitalism - we still have a choice to buy healthy food or grow our own food, exercise, and take care of ourselves. We don't HAVE to go to McDonald's, but we do. We don't HAVE to drive cars to work, but we do. I will be the first to admit that I love convenience, and I know that's what contributed to my weight gain. I would rather have pizza delivered than even DRIVE to the place myself, or better yet, make a healthy version at home. My husband will gripe at me for wanting to take my car to Jiffy Lube to get an oil change when he is perfectly capable of doing it himself at home - "and save money!", as he says. But for me, it's convenience.

The point is, whatever the reason you eat too much food is because you've chosen to. Nobody is force-feeding you. Nobody is saying "EAT THIS HAMBURGER OR I'LL CUT YOUR THROAT!" I'm fat because I chose to get to this place, not because of some outside force or cause. I'm fat because I chose to forgo caring about myself. I totally take responsibility for gaining weight. I know how I got myself here, and I know how I plan to get myself out of it.

I didn't choose the risk factors running against me - family history of diabetes and heart disease - but I can choose to lower my risk as much as possible.

Does chocolate taste good? Absolutely. But every time I choose chocolate over a piece of fruit or a handful of veggies, I'm choosing not to care about myself in the long run.

And for the record, I really hate exercise. I don't like it at all, and unlike others, I don't really feel good after I do it. I do it because I make the choice to be good to my heart and the rest of my body/mind every time I go to the gym.

JayEll
08-08-2007, 02:57 PM
Hey Greens, your tone has gotten a little disrespectful. Let's all try to behave in a civilized manner. No one likes to be referred to as "big flabby eyesores," etc.

What is your point, Greens? I'm not understanding what you want from this exchange.

Jay

Greens
08-08-2007, 03:04 PM
Am I on a diet and looking for support?

I looked for an appropriate place to put this topic and there wasn't a perfect spot. This seemed to be the best fit. I've been using Z trim. That's a dietary product. I'm interested in the real cause of obesity and I have some opinions on it. If this is the kind of place that doesn't like "strange" ideas (most places on the internet don't even though they say they're open minded) then people's skirts will get in a bunch.

The statements about animals are somewhat absurd but not entirely. Humans are animals. We have physical bodies that have to deal with the same problems that animals have to deal with. We need to get around, find food, stay hydrated and nourished and warm if we're warm blooded. We need to reproduce. We have a lot in common.

The animal would not gorge itself because it's easy... animals instinctually eat whatever food is available when it is available because there are times in natures when food is not available and it does it to protect itself and store fat.


Dogs are animals. Pet dogs of fat people are having an obesity epidemic. Where's that instinct to eat only what is needed? I think that's what you meant to say.

Pet dogs act just like humans. They want to reexperience pleasurable sensations. My dog wants more and more greenies and biscuits. I think he wants more than he needs just like I want more than I need. He can pass on breakfast, lunch and sometimes even dinner just like I used to, even if he's just sitting around. I can't do that anymore. I have taught myself to shop and cook and go to drive thrus. I have learned the pleasures of Doritos. He hasn't. That's why I have a weight problem and he doesn't.

Animals don't have psychological disorders because they are animals.

Dogs get phobias. Mine has a fear of linoleum and it's common. You can look it up. They have separation anxiety. They get all kinds of psychological problems. How different are they from chipmunks and woodchucks? My guess is they're not much different.

On to a different subject: I like being active too. The trouble is I have accumulated a lot of injuries from being heavy and too active. These are injuries that in a way you can say they are caused by weight loss schemes and the love of tennis, roller bladding, bicycling, hiking, weight lifting. When I try to lose weight and I formulate a plan, I tend to persist with it and ignore pain because it screws my plans. BIG PROBLEM - I HATE "MODERATION". I used to hear that all the time. "Moderation". Maybe it's something you learn when you're a kid. I don't like it. TV taught me that peole who don't moderate are cooler. Excess was idolized in the sixties. I even had a teacher who was crazy about Peter the Great. He was a skinny guy who raved about the wonderful accomplishments and feasts of Peter the Great. I also remember people raving about Jim Morrison and how he could do fifty tabs of acid and couple of quarts of whiskey and still perform, go out for more drinks later. People idolize that sort of thing. Moderate people are bores. Whew!

rockinrobin
08-08-2007, 03:12 PM
Sure we have lots in common with animals. But there are way more things that we DON'T have in common with them. An animal wouldn't sit there and type out these messages that you are writing for one. You just can not compare it in the manner that you are.

I think that you are very angry for some reason and for whateverhardships you went through, I am truly sorry. I also think you are looking to blame others for your weight situation. You still have yet to tell us just how much you are looking to lose and what stage of the journey you are in.

I think you probably would like to be thin and fit and healthy and are just not willing to work at it. At some point in ones life, no matter how much junk we went through as kids, myself included, we have to take ownership and take responsibility for our lives.

As for Jim Morrison, well we don't need to look any further then him. Perfect example, I'm glad you brought him up. He certainly didn't believe in moderation according to youand look where it left him. Drugs, alcohol - food - name your posion. It's all the same. Good old unboring, unmoderation Jimmy boy is dead. At age 27.

It's one thing to love food, which I do, always did , always will, it's a totally different story when one abuses it. After years of abusing myself with food, I finally decided to own up to it, acknowledge it and CHANGE it. I may not like moderation, but given the alternative, I choose it. And I most certainly had to learn it at age 42. It's hard - but doable. Moderation or death? Hmmm.. Yeah, I choose moderation.

Heather
08-08-2007, 03:23 PM
If this is the kind of place that doesn't like "strange" ideas (most places on the internet don't even though they say they're open minded) then people's skirts will get in a bunch.

I think it's not so much strange ideas people don't like, so much as feeling insulted. This is first and foremost a support forum, and while we all don't agree all of the time (that's for sure!), we attempt to treat each other civilly. And I think most of us have had to learn that just because we experience something a particular way, doesn't mean that's what everyone else experiences. So when you make broad and unqualified statements like "Parental abuse, bully abuse has nothing to do with being fat" of course you are going to piss some people off.

Who knows, maybe you are right. But you don't really provide any strong evidence to back you up and have no markers to identifty your tone (those gorgeous smilies! :) ). You just seem like you want to argue about it.

Don't get me wrong, we have lots of GREAT discussions around here. And probably many of us do have "strange ideas". But skirts get in a bunch not from strange ideas but from people who seem to blindly pass judgment on others.

You may not mean to be disrespectful, but that's how you're coming off, in the opinion of this "big flabby eyesore". :)

All that being said, I think you make some good points -- for instance I agree that dogs get phobias (and so would most behaviorists).

And as for "moderation" -- I think many of us find it an ongoing struggle. It's a great topic to discuss, and perhaps where you were headed when you started this thread?

GirlyGirlSebas
08-08-2007, 03:24 PM
I'm interested in the real cause of obesity and I have some opinions on it.


The real cause? For me, I'm learning my real causes (plural) as I go along on this weight loss journey. So far, I've found that I have a ton of causes. If I wait until I know all of my causes before I begin this journey, I really don't think I'd ever figure them out. Sometimes, we just have to decide to 'Just Do It!"

3FC is full of people who have succeeded in fighting this journey....several of them have posted right here on this thread. Wouldn't we be incredibly foolish in discounting their viewpoints on eating healthy and exercising if we hope to attain the same success? As for me, I have no intention of being foolish.:D

aphil
08-08-2007, 03:32 PM
I agree with the fact that dogs have emotional issues, phobias, etc. as well-a friend has a dog who they have to give tranquiizers every 4th of July because the sound of fireworks makes him spastic. But-the reason is because like an infant, he doesn't understand what is making the noise, why, that it is harmless, and so on and so forth. I used to have a cocker spaniel who howled whenever she heard the whistling theme song to the Andy Griffith Show. Animals have feelings and emotions, but the point is, is that their personalities, learning abilities, emotions, etc. don't really expand and progress as far as ours do.

It isn't about you having extreme ideas, or ideas off the beaten path-that isn't why you aren't getting good responses. It is all about the delivery, first and foremost, and also that you are generalizing people, etc.

Every person is different, therefore the cause of their obesity is different. For one person, it may simply be a lifestyle change such as going from an active job to a desk job-and they simply aren't burning as many calories in a day. For someone else it may be simple overeating, even though they eat healthy foods. For another person it may be a very sedentary lifestyle, doubled with a habit of stopping at Starbucks for a 400 calorie mocha each morning. Everyone has different habits that made them gain weight. This is also why one person might be 10 pounds overweight, and another person might be 100 pounds overweight. It all comes down to burning more calories than you take in, but everyone has different issues and struggles that they face that are personal. For one person it may be the co-worker who leaves a jar of Reeses Pieces on their desk that sabotoges their efforts, and for others it might be their Aunt Betty who keeps bringing brownies to your house, because she knows that you are trying to lose weight. :lol: Another person might find that they have a hard time adjusting to healthy foods...another might enjoy fish and fruit but simply has more trouble eating too much of it.

We gain weight because we take in more calories than we consume, period. That is the cause of obesity that you are looking for. But, in that black and white statement, there are lots of shades of gray that need to be dealt with on a personal level-everyone's habits and likes and lifestyles are different, so the same methods of weight loss don't work for everyone.

One thing isn't going to cure obesity for everyone in our society-not a pill, not a single diet plan, nor one single exercise method. No one thing is for everyone. The cure for obesity is burning more than you take in, but that is done by different means for different people-just as teh process of gaining weight is. For one person that might be calorie counting and walking, for another it might be South Beach Diet and lifting weights. We best diet plan and exercise regime is what you find works for you-for your lifestyle, your likes/dislikes, etc.

So, I am still scratching my head at the whole exchange here...

JayEll
08-08-2007, 03:32 PM
Hey again,

We have a forum called "Does It Work?" where people post about different weight loss supplements etc. Also, there was a long discussion about Z-trim awhile back. Here's the link:

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102439

It's long, but you can read what different people thought about it and post there as well, if you like. :)

Please, would everyone review the Support Policy Sticky at the top of the main Weight Loss Support page? Also, here is a link to our forum rules:

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50973

Jay

Greens
08-08-2007, 03:33 PM
The attitudes you learn when you're young set a pattern. On the one hand the responsible people salute moderation. At the same time they worship people like Morrison, sports heros, various workaholics who don't do anything in moderation.

My theory is that I started out with a dislike of most food just like most kids dislike food. I was taught to like a lot of foods and smoking and our whole immoderate way of living. Some of those things became patterns and behaviors and some of them like growing new fat cells are just irreversible. The thing about being fat is that you only have to get fat once and you've got all those new fat cells waiting to expand for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how good you are at dieting.

JayEll
08-08-2007, 03:39 PM
Well, not exactly true, about the fat cells. But anyway...

I didn't like food either when I was a child (preschooler). I was little and sickly and it was hard to get me to eat anything. I remember it--food was just too vivid, I had a hard time dealing with it.

Yep, that changed!

But I'm no longer a slave to food. I figured out this last time that eating "normal" (i.e., society's way) didn't work for me.

Yes, I imagine that I'll have to watch what I eat for the rest of my life. I can live with that, and live quite well. :D

Jay

junebug41
08-08-2007, 03:41 PM
The attitudes you learn when you're young set a pattern. On the one hand the responsible people salute moderation. At the same time they worship people like Morrison, sports heros, various workaholics who don't do anything in moderation.

My theory is that I started out with a dislike of most food just like most kids dislike food. I was taught to like a lot of foods and smoking and our whole immoderate way of living. Some of those things became patterns and behaviors and some of them like growing new fat cells are just irreversible. The thing about being fat is that you only have to get fat once and you've got all those new fat cells waiting to expand for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how good you are at dieting.

Oh, okay. I see. By saying people who were abused and what-have-you are only blaming others for their weight gain, you really meant you. I get it.

Carry on.

rockinrobin
08-08-2007, 03:43 PM
The attitudes you learn when you're young set a pattern. On the one hand the responsible people salute moderation. At the same time they worship people like Morrison, sports heros, various workaholics who don't do anything in moderation.

My theory is that I started out with a dislike of most food just like most kids dislike food. I was taught to like a lot of foods and smoking and our whole immoderate way of living. Some of those things became patterns and behaviors and some of them like growing new fat cells are just irreversible. The thing about being fat is that you only have to get fat once and you've got all those new fat cells waiting to expand for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how good you are at dieting.

Yes, the things learned when you are young most definitely set a pattern. But we as humans are capable of setting new patterns. I promise you it IS possible. I was the worlds worst eater and the most inactive person you can imagine. I have reversed that. Totally and completely. Do I still struggle sometimes to eat well and exercise - of course I do and I have no doubt that I always will. But it is doable. Fat cells and all. Why are you so doubting? We have many, many long term success stories around here.

Me personally, I never, ever saw sports people, rock stars and the like as heroes. That' s just totally absurd to me.

Are you really looking for help and support in your weight efforts? Or are you just looking for some heated interaction? I'm not really seeing that you ARE looking for support.

GirlyGirlSebas
08-08-2007, 03:44 PM
The thing about being fat is that you only have to get fat once and you've got all those new fat cells waiting to expand for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how good you are at dieting.

That's why most of us are not merely on a diet....we are changing our whole lifestyle. Yeah, I know....sounds like a trite phrase that we regurgitate back and forth with each other. But, the fact is...I've lost weight many times...and I've gained back that weight plus a few more pounds each time. I have finallyrealized that I have to change the way I live if I hope to ever succeed at losing this weight and keeping it off forever. And you know what? Changing your lifestyle is not for the faint of heart! This is the hardest thing I've ever done....but, what is the alternative?

aphil
08-08-2007, 03:51 PM
Oh, okay. I see. By saying people who were abused and what-have-you are only blaming others for their weight gain, you really meant you. I get it.

Carry on.


This is what I was thinking as well-by saying in one post that people who have eating disorders because of abuse/pain in their past is BS and that they are blaming it on something other than themselves...and then turning around and saying that you are heavy because of patterns you learned as a child-that is a walking contradiction.

hopingtobehopeful
08-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Greens,

What is it that you are looking for here on this site? How can we help you? Are you seeking answers for yourself? Wanting to share your experiences with us? I'm interested in what motivated you to sign up on 3FatChicks.

:?:

Greens
08-08-2007, 04:28 PM
I already did the "change your whole lifestyle" thing. It was back in '81. It worked. I thought it was permanent. I started with the Pritikin plan as a model. Went on a fast for a few days and then kept track of every calorie. Stayed at 1200 calories a day for awhile. Rode my bike more and more. Walked. I lost about fifty pounds, but it all came back even though I thought I'd changed everything and got used to everything. Pritikin died of a heart attack not long after.

People want to know all kinds of details about me, I don't know them about you. Maybe it's in your profiles. I haven't looked. A lot of you are proclaiming yourselves successes. How long have you been a success?

I get annoyed when people say they eat because of abuse. I've heard it here. I've read it in books. I'm reading "Fat girl". The author is pretty unpleasant. She writes brutally honestly about what she was, but I'm not sure she's honest about what caused her problems. She whines a lot about her mother and father. Anyhow, I'm not singling out anyone here. In general I think the whole theory is bs. I'd be a liar if I claimed otherwise. I'm opinionated. I hope that's not against the rules. Most of all I recognize that there isn't a diet that works for the long term, for the rest of your life. That's what's needed. Temporary weight loss always feels good at first. It doesn't feel so good when it comes back or when you hurt your knees from despertely trying to exercise too much.

When I said something to the effect, "fat, unattractive blob" I wasn't talking about anyone here, but us fat folks in general. If that's still too much I can try to avoid using that, but I'm used to much worse.

If there's a better forum for this topic feel free to move it. I hope it's not to some backwater. Personally, I think people shouldn't be so touchy. Opinions are opinions. I'm fat myself. I'm as always fiddling with my diet, riding my bike for up to 3 hours a day, walking and in general doing all the things dieters do except keep a diary. I'm a little afraid to lose weight because of what happened last time, you see. I've ended up after 27 years much heavier than when I started. I never want to go through that again.

Greens
08-08-2007, 04:36 PM
This is what I was thinking as well-by saying in one post that people who have eating disorders because of abuse/pain in their past is BS and that they are blaming it on something other than themselves...and then turning around and saying that you are heavy because of patterns you learned as a child-that is a walking contradiction.

No. Some people claim they were neglected or derided by their parents and that's why they eat now. I was saying that I learned to admire people who didn't do things in moderation so long as they were successful and talented. I mentioned that teacher who I liked and his love of the Peter the Great character. Then there's society in general who loves to watch someone kill themself in pursuit of a goal.

Are you sure you're not mad because I'm challenging what you think is the successful plan to follow?

rockinrobin
08-08-2007, 04:41 PM
"Diets" and lifestyles changes only work if you stick to them. You have to be willing to do that. Pounds don't come magically back on. They come on for a reason. Because you CHOOSE to eat. The choice is yours. It's a choice we make every single day, many times throughout the day in fact.

It sounds like your head is just not there. Maybe you may benefit to speak with a professional to sort this all out.

Being opinionated is not against the rules. Insulting people, even people in general is.

JayEll
08-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Hey Greens, you should be able to see all of our tickers, which are the bars at the bottom of our posts that show our progress. Mine, as you see, says that I lost 43 pounds, and I'm doing maintenance now, which I've been doing for a month.

You can get one of those tickers, too, by going to "User CP" (click it at the top of the page) and then clicking "Edit Signature." Also, some folks have S/C/G in the left margin of their posts, which is "Start weight/Current weight/Goal weight, and list their height.

You don't have to reveal anything about yourself if you don't want to. It just helps us know where someone is coming from. You'd be surprised at the people who drop in here who aren't interested in weight loss, really. Spammers, kids wanting to act out, and so on.

We don't allow fat bashing or skinny bashing here. Someone can call himself or herself a big fat cow, but no one else should ever call anyone else that, even in general. We have members who are over 400 pounds, and members who are under 120.

People do have a hard time sometimes seeing how being abused can lead to eating problems--but being abused leads to lots of problems, so it's not surprising that abused people turn to food (or drugs, or other bad compulsive behaviors). But of course, not everyone is like that. I am not a victim of abuse, as far as I know--but hey, I did manage to overeat anyway. :yes:

I can understand your fear of losing, after having gained it back. But there are better programs now, and better approaches, than what were around in the '80s. Sounds like you are physically active, and that's good!

This is a fine place to post if you want support with your weight loss efforts. We aren't doctors or professionals here (although probably some of our members are), but we know what it's like and we sometimes can help.

Jay

rockinrobin
08-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Are you sure you're not mad because I'm challenging what you think is the successful plan to follow?

I can't speak for Aphil or anyone else for that matter. But I'm pretty sure Aphil's not mad because you are challenging what she may think is the successful plan to follow, because basically I don't see you challenging any plans whatsoever. You're just spewing out anger and quite frankly not making much sense when doing so.

TxBrittany
08-08-2007, 04:46 PM
People want to know all kinds of details about me, I don't know them about you. Maybe it's in your profiles. I haven't looked. A lot of you are proclaiming yourselves successes. How long have you been a success?

I can't speak for everyone, but I think the reason you're posts are off-putting to me is that you've come in here and basically said that there is no way to successfully lose weight and keep it off. I'm truly sorry you feel that way, because that is an attitude that WILL make it hard to be successful. But it's just plain not true. This is a SUPPORT forum, and nothing you've said so far has been very supportive, not have you been seeking support. As a new member, I personally find many women on this site to be very inspirational, because they HAVE, despite what you may think, been VERY successful. It's not impossible to lose weight and maintain that loss, it just takes a total overhaul of your lifestyle, and we are here to support that lifestyle change in one another.

aphil
08-08-2007, 04:47 PM
Greens-going on a fast for a few days, and eating 1200 calories a day for a male (you are male, correct?) is very extreme, and I would liken that more to a "diet" instead of a lifestyle change.

Honestly, for a man, 1800 calories a day is a more reasonable weight loss calorie level...1200 is simply too low for most men.

In the 80's there were a lot of dietary changes and things that people did, that studies have found were too extreme, or simply ineffective. In the early 80's lifting weights for women wasn't done much...bouncy high impact aerobics in thong leotards and matching leg warmers was. :lol: Women were afraid of "bulking up" back then, when most of us simply can't, because we don't have the male body.

I honestly urge you to try again, and learn what you can about how things have changed since your last really big go at weight loss. In the 80's my mom was doing fasts, crash diets, and had 1 pound pink hand weights. It wasn't until just a few years ago that I and my stepfather convinced her to eat more moderately (not her old crash diets) and to really get fit.

I understand that there is a fear of failing, and regaining again. We have a wonderful section here called "Maintainers" that is specifically FOR those who have lost the weight, and are committed to keeping it off permanently.

As far as details about all of the rest of us go, nib around a bit. Some info is in our profiles. Some of us have info there about our interests, photos, etc. If you go to the General Chatter section, that is where we talk about other things besides our diet/exercise regimes. You'll find out more about our personal interests there. Once you are around a while, you sort of get to know other people, and what they are all about.

As for me personally, if there is anything you want to know-I am pretty much an open book. :)

I am also very opinionated myself, so I can respect that, but where the problem lies sometimes is that over the computer we don't have the ability to see someone's body language, facial expression, and hear their tone, to see how to take some comments. We also have to realize that every now and then there is a 16 year old kid trolling websites trying to get people riled up because they have nothing else to do. :lol:

One of the things about letting us know where you are in your journey is so that we can help. I wouldn't suggest jogging to someone who is 200 pounds overweight, for instance-and I wouldn't suggest Atkins to a vegetarian. Letting us know more about you, and your personal struggles with your weight can only help us, because then we have more information to go by.

aphil
08-08-2007, 04:57 PM
No. Some people claim they were neglected or derided by their parents and that's why they eat now. I was saying that I learned to admire people who didn't do things in moderation so long as they were successful and talented. I mentioned that teacher who I liked and his love of the Peter the Great character. Then there's society in general who loves to watch someone kill themself in pursuit of a goal.

Are you sure you're not mad because I'm challenging what you think is the successful plan to follow?

I can't speak for Aphil or anyone else for that matter. But I'm pretty sure Aphil's not mad because you are challenging what she may think is the successful plan to follow, because basically I don't see you challenging any plans whatsoever. You're just spewing out anger and quite frankly not making much sense when doing so.

Thank you robin, very well put.

No, I am not angry because you are challenging what I think is a successful plan to follow. I haven't stated one particular plan...and you haven't challenged one particular plan. You have challenged them all, and stated that basically, we are all doomed to fail, eventually.

I am also angry that you have been generalizing people, which you simply cannot do-because we are all individuals and unique. I am miffed that you would state that one person's past and it having influenced their eating is b.s., and then a few posts later, saying that your childhood shaped your life and dealings with food. It was a contradiction.

You generalize and say in multiple posts, including this last one, that society in general loves to watch someone kill themselves in pursuit of a goal.

What???? :?:

I don't worship sports stars, or stars like Morrison...people who have it all and throw it away because of drugs/booze/chicks/whatever. That is generalizing again.

The fact of the matter is, you are upset because you have failed in the past, and rather than dust yourself off and try again-you have come here and basically told everyone, including people who have maintained their losses for years-that they are doomed to fail. This is the support section, and your comments are pretty much the complete opposite of that.
That is what upsets me. If you want to try again, and quite possibly succeed-then we are here for you. If you are here only to tell us that we will eventually fail, then that is something that I just don't feel is right for a forum based on support.

I am closing the thread-I don't really think that anything is being accomplished here.

Suzanne 3FC
08-08-2007, 05:08 PM
This is a very interesting thread, and also very difficult to participate in. There are so many different things being suggested.

Greens, I agree that we are eating more and moving less. I personally saw that happen to the 3 of us in the 80s, as we gradually expanded our waistlines as well as our collection of remote controls :lol:

Everyone overeats for their own personal reasons. Sometimes it's to help reduce stress - eating can be a calming and pleasurable action. Sometimes it's out of boredom. Sometimes it's because we like good food. I also think we are surrounded by a culture of fattening food that is easily attainable, and we desperately need to do something about that, for the sake of future generations as well as our own.

I don't think it's fair to say that those who claim they overeat as a reaction to having been abused or traumatized in some way are lying, because who are we to say it's not true? All we can do is look at our own personal situation and discover what makes us tick as individuals. Therefore, the solution may be different for everyone, but there CAN be a solution.

If someone overeats because they love good food, or because they are a food addict, that doesn't mean their situation is hopeless. Sometimes traditional dieting works, sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunately, it's so complicated and diverse that it's impossible to narrow it down to one cause, and one solution. It takes a lot of thought, a lot of soul searching, and a lot of effort. But giving up isn't an option. What kind of lives would we live if we just gave up on everything that was detrimental to our health or futures?

Suzanne 3FC
08-08-2007, 05:09 PM
:o sorry aphil, I slipped in on you!