Discussion Six: Key Five: High-Respnse Cost, High Yield Nutrition

[Angel26519]

Ok Everybody I am opening up this discussion for everyone!

I will post later!

How is everyone doing? Is the book making a difference in your lives? WHat are you getting out of it?

[Summerlover]

I found this to be another great chapter. I love the idea of not measuring. I am totally obsessed with food, and I feel that WW's insistance that we weigh and measure everything that goes in our mouths made me more obsessed. I know deep down that I should have been eating like Dr. Phil says all along. It won't be easy to eat whole grains. I hate brown rice and whole wheat pasta. But, I will have to get used to it I guess. In the meantime, before even reading this chapter, I had lost 5 pounds by following the previous chapters...NO DIETING! I'm thrilled! Summer

[gonzostar]

this key is an important one for me, one i am still learing about. i have made the switch to all wheat breads. i eat fruits and veggies. but i still have questions about nutrition a lot, when it's not obvious (i.e. pizza vs salad but rather broccoli vs green bans or something).

i also am interested in his guidelines for meal replacement bars. i've been studying them in stores and a LOT of the ones out there have way too much sugar, according to dr. phil. interesting.

[Summerlover]

It is humorous that this chapter was read around Halloween. Is anyone else having trouble eating healthy right now? Summer

[mauvaisroux]

I went out to a club on Halloween so I managed to avoid buying candy for trick or treaters, and of course eating anything that was leftover or even eating it before the big day and having to run out and buy more candy :o

Please tell me I'm not the only one who has ever done that :lol:

Summer- I didn't care much for the whole wheat pasta but after eating it a few times I actually liked it better than regular pasta. I find that it isn't as starchy, cooks faster and I don't feel weighed down after I have eaten it. I throw some sugar free pasta sauce on it with cooked veggies and maybe a little chicken.

I also try not to eat too many "low fat" products since they are heavily processed and can contain hidden sugars.

This chapter was great - I tend to eat pretty healthy but one of the things I learned at WW was that I don't know how to control my portions. The methods he talks about for portion sizes are exactly what WW tells i.e. meat should only be the size of you palm or a deck of cards etc.

It is amazing when you realize how small a serving of pasta is and the fact that you get 4 times that in a restaurant :yikes: and yet we all clean our plates so we don't waste food or money.

The worst is all-you-can-eat buffets ....I find that I always ate more that I intended or needed to eat at those things and then felt sick and bloated afterwards. I never go to those things anymore.

It is hard to get started cooking all your meals from scratch but once you get in the habit of cooking with fresh healthy ingredients fast food and pre fab food just tastes nasty and is not worth eating anymore.

[nanj]

Well, I've been kind of hung up on this key, because of so many stupid diets that I have been on over the past years. I don't like to eat breakfast and I know that it is necessary, but I'm just not hungry in the mornings. I read articles that say "If you eat low-carb you will lose weight faster compared to people who are on low-fat diets." I love meat, and can over-indulge in it very easily.
It sure in easy for me to get rid of leftover vegetables, but I really, really, hate to throw out meat! I have decide right in the middle of the Dr. Phil thing that I would eat low-carb, well, I over indulged, of course, and my weight loss stalled for two weeks. And I have this thing about wanting things that have been forbidden to me. So, back to square one in this key. I really think what is behind this hang-up on this key is that I am still looking for a "quick-fix". With my weight it seems like it will take me forever to get to "normal". What Dr. Phil says in the book about "weight being managed, not cured" is oh, so right!

Well, time to stop b*tching and moaning about it and just follow the BOOK! I have to rethink my goals 24-25# by Dec. 15th. I started the life-change on September 15th and have lost, as of Saturday, 20.5#. But, I keep thinking that is not fast enough. For crying out loud, I'm ahead of my original goal, but years of quick losses on fad diets, are still banging in my brain. ALso I've been down this path before by losing a great deal of weight and gaining it all back plus more and that is in my thoughts also. So, back to "negative thoughts" key again. Gosh, I hope my BOOK can hold up under the constant flipping!

I'm also mad at myself for letting me get this fat. I have put off a hystorectomy for years, because as a nurse, I know the consequence for the doctors and me when you do surgery on someone who is "morbidly obese". I'm going in Nov. 17th for a hystorectomy, hernia repair and A&P repair. Even now, I had tried to get the doctors to let me wait because I "really would lose weight" this time. But, because of the test results, it would be very unwise medically.

I know that Dr. Phil's plan works, I've just got to let it. I'm not going to read anymore weight-related articles for a while. Just till I get it cemented in my head that even though I'm losing slower than I would like, I'm still losing and will keep it off if I would just keep my mind on quality vs. quanity.

I'm currently in my non-sleeping phase and everytime my husband comes down to check on me, I'm reading the BOOK. He wanted to know if he was going to have to worry about me and this Dr. Phil guy! LOL! You younger people better sleep now, because when your older you can't!

I have to go back over the keys that I have conquered to keep re-enforcing them. My family would like to borrow my copy, but it is like to "holy grail" right now, plus I have a lot of personal notes in them. So my Christmas shopping will be very easy. They are all getting a copy of the BOOK! LOL

Have any of you tried the Dr. Phil supplements and protein drinks?
I saw them at Walmart and they were pretty pricey. I did have one of his bars when they first came out and was really not impressed.

Also have any of you had problems with getting all your food groups in for a well-rounded diet? If I do then, I feel like I'm constantly eating and am too full!

Nancy

311/290.5/170
sw cw gw

[mauvaisroux]

Hi nanj! First of all I want to give you a big hug :grouphug: of support for all the frustration you are experiencing. We all go through it at some point or another.

Good for you for realising what you are doing and going back to chapter 1 :cp:

On the low carb thing- I am currently on a "lower carb" plan, which means I still eat carbs but have switched to whole wheat bread, wholewheat pasta, whole wheat couscous, brown rice and high fibre cereals. I only eat boiled or baked potatoes once per week maximum. You can eat healthy but still get your grains in :)

If you feel you are too full maybe you should make your portions smaller and have little snacks. If I don't feel hungry then I just skip my snack or cut my meal portion down a bit.
Also I use smaller plates and bowls to help visually trick myself into portion control ;)

A typical day for me might be:

Breakfast:
1 cup kashi Good Friends cereal
1/2 cup 2% milk
1 cup of coffee with 1 tsp sugar and 2 tbsp 1/2 & 1/2 cream

Snack:
1 cup of fruit flavored, sugar free low fat yogurt
1 cup of herbal tea without sugar
or decaf orange pekoe tea with 1 packet of splenda and a splash of milk

Lunch:
Salad made up of romaine lettuce, chopped raw broccoli, cucumber, tomato, 1 ounce cheddar cheese-chopped, 2 ounces of lean turkey meat from the deli- cut into strips and 2 tbsp sugar free salad dressing.
3 slices of whole wheat melba toast
1 cup of sugar free jello

Snack:
1 piece of fruit or some carrot sticks with hummous

Dinner:
1 piece of meat (4 oz) -about the size of a deck of cards-baked, broiled or grilled- in a low or non fat marinade
1 cup fresh broccoli and 1 cup fresh cauliflower-steamed- with 1 tsp butter and pepper

Snack:
2 cups airpopped popcorn with 1 tbsp melted butter and nacho cheese flavored popcorn seasoning

[nanj]

Thanks mauvaisroux,

It is nice to see a sensible eating plan. I haven't yet redeveloped my "true hunger" and I am still trying to eat by the clock. I hoping someday I will not start my day off with thinking about food. So many years of bad habits to break! Thank you for the encouragement. I know that I am not the only one out there battling this, and it sure helps to know that.

[mauvaisroux]

Your are welcome nanj!

That is one thing about the book and the show it really shows a cross section and lets everyone see that there are others in similar situations :)

My personal philosophy is to not eat prepackaged and preprocessed food which I have been doing for some time and it totally fits in with Dr. Phil's High-response cost-high yield nutrition idea.

I am trying to cut back on my sugar intake including "hidden" sugars and I certain got a shock when I read the labels of so called low-fat products - they usually replace the fat with sugar :yikes: It is amazing what you find out when you start reading the ingredients and nutrional information on labels!

The only low-fat items I buy now are dairy products and Splenda or stevia :)

[Rowan Bailey]

I got behind on the book and am playing catch up. Overall the book has been wonderful, as I find it more difficult when I am putting bad things in my mouth....I used to get mad and would eat more, now I am exercising more restraint that if I am going off plan that it done in moderation. I had a very bad week last week, usually a week like that will spiral into a dark period, this time it didn't. While my weight loss is behind what my goals are, I feel like I am making those internal changes that will allow me to reach my true goal, which is to take the weight off and keep it off.

I also have resigned myself to the fact that I cannot eat sugar, that will be the way that I will need to be the rest of my life....and now I am not so upset about it, I can have the sugar, just once in a while and in extreme moderation....

I love the book it is just a wonderful way to reframe all of the things that us folks with weight issues (not someone who just put on a few pounds on vacation) need to address.....

kudos to all of us!!!

rb

[BethC]

I love this book, I hate to sound dramatic, but it's really changed my whole way of eating.

I have been reading it all along, going back and re-reading chapters as needed. This chapter was good for me, consistent with WW and gave me more options food-wise.

I did find the guidelines about the meal-replacement bars interesting. I'm always looking for good quick foods that I can carry with me or use when here it is 2:30pm and I haven't had lunch yet. If I went down to the deli, I don't even know what I would come back with. I like the Atkins bar, not becuase I'm not eating carbs, but becuase they're tasty and very filling. I also bought some different flavored Balance bars to try. It's all about what you like.

The other thing that he talked about was soup. It sounds so simple, but bringing one of those soup to go with me to work has been one the best idea in a long time. It is so filling and as he says - it takes a while to get through too.

Now I'm moving on to the next Key - Intentional Exercise - this one's gonna be tough.

[Summerlover]

Time for Chapter 8, Key 5.

Section 1, Meal & snacks: I scored 18, which is a surprisingly good score.

Section 2, Nutrient Balance: I scored 13, which isn't horrible, but not good. I know where I am lacking...vegetables. Since I was a kid, I have had to force veggies down my throat. I HATE THEM. People tell me to use dips and salad dressing. Well, I don't like vinegar or mayonaise, so their suggestion doesn't help. I just have to make myself eat more of them.

Section 3, Fiber: I scored 8, which is pretty bad...no shock there. In addition to disliking veggies, I HATE WHOLE GRAINS. I was raised on white Pepperidge Farm bread and white English muffins. We eat whole wheat bread in my house now with 3 grams of dietary fiber upon my DH's insistence. 3 grams is not much, but bread with anything more tastes like tree bark to me. I have a lot of work to do with fiber. One of my problems is that I have irritable bowel syndrome, and when I add more fiber, my diarrhea increases dramatically...I won't go into further detail.

Section 4, Sugar & processed carbs: (I LIVE FOR SUGAR AND PROCESSED CARBS) Gee I wonder why I'm fat?! :lol: I scored 8, which is not good. I use sweet 'n' low when I can, but my friends keep telling me I will get cancer using artificial sweeteners, so I'm trying to eliminate them...hence more use of sugar.

Section 5, Fat intake: I scored 11, which surprises me because I'm always working on eating low fat. Who knew?! :?:

Section 6, Salt: Oh hell. I scored 4, which again is not good. What can I say? I like my food salted. We are using a lower sodium kind of salt if that makes any difference.

Section 7, Fluids: I scored 5, which is quite fabulous! Finally I'm doing something right!!! :D

Allllllrighty then. Let's recap my weaknesses.

I hate veggies and high fiber foods. I eat too much sugar, processed carbs, fat, and salt. Well there you go.

Summer

[Summerlover]

I'm a little confused. Maybe someone can straighten me out.

In Chapter 6, Key 3, Dr. Phil listed foods to throw away. We were to "rid our environment of cookies, candy, salty foods, donuts, white bread products, crackers, cold cuts, ice cream, etc..." It was very clear, no confusion there.

Now, in Chapter 8, Key 5, Dr. Phil talks about "high-yield foods, hunger suppressors" & "low-yield foods, hunger drivers." We are told to "manage our portions" & "plan our meals." In "manage our portions" he talks about Gary who became obsessed with food because of constantly weighing and measuring it. Okay that makes sense.

But, then he talks about Colleen who was labelled a "recovering overeater." She believed that foods like "pie, pizza, ice cream were as dangerous as drugs or alcohol...the fear she had attached to certain foods was overpowering, & the guilt she felt if she ate them was emotionally crippling...a bite of these off limit foods would lead to a binge." Dr. Phil desensitized her to these foods by eating them twice a week. She figured out she needed to eat healthy and eventually would only eat these as an occasional treat. "People by nature want what they can't have...I am going to go against the grain of conventional diet wisdom & tell you to not cross any food off your list, unless it is a problem for you. I'm not going to tell you that you cannot eat this or that...Obsessing over what to eat and what not to eat will only sabotage your weight control efforts."

Alright, which is it?! In Key 3 he is very clear about what we should not eat at all. Then in Key 5, he contradicts himself. I just don't get what he wants us to do. Eliminate these foods entirely in Key 3. Eat these foods occasionally in Key 5. Did he bother to read his book?!

I feel more comfortable with Key 5, because I crave what I am "not allowed to eat."

I could use some feedback.

Summer

[diphthong]

Here's the link to the previous discussion on Chapter7: Key 4 - Mastery over Impulse Eating

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37777

Hey Summer!

You bring up an interesting point - why clean out your environment, Key 3 when as Dr. Phil says in Key 5: "I'm not going to tell you that you cannot eat this or that...Obsessing over what to eat and what not to eat will only sabotage your weight control efforts."

The answer is smack dab in the middle - Key 4: Impulse Eating. In Key 2 we learned how to reach and recognize the emotional triggers that nudge us to eat unhealthy. In Key 3, we cleaned out our environment of those unhealthy foods, began eating healthy while detoxing our bodies as well as our environment, relearned how to grocery shop and make overall healthy choices. While we're practicing Keys 2 and 3, we studied Key 4 about our general eating habits, and how to change them. For example, allowing ourselves to get too hungry or too tired, and then eating anything "that doesn't move," and in general, "mindless over-eating."

My experience this past year has been that total deprivation leads to a binge or losing control. I haven't reread this chapter yet, but in answer to your question, I'd say the objective of this key is relearning basic nutrition, combining, and scheduling. I think the good Dr. is saying that once you've mastered all the keys up to this one, you can learn to have that cookie without eating the whole bag, or a piece of birthday cake without the ice cream or a 2nd or 3rd piece. I use what's called the 3-bite rule. If it's something I absolutely have to have, I take 3 bites and get rid of it, in the garbage, or down the disposal. Generally, 3 bites is not enough to do any damage, but this is not a daily practice. I allow myself to have a free meal, usually on Friday evening. But after awhile, I've found that some weeks go by that I don't even desire that free meal. And the free meal is not a binge, it is a healthy meal but with something I wouldn't eat, like maybe pasta or white bread. Also, because we travel and are away from home alot, I can control, or at least be very aware of the right choices to make when eating out, or out of my controlled environment like a social situation.

The last paragraph on Page 198 sums it up. Like "Colleen," I obsesssed in the beginning too, that I thought I was developing an eating disorder. Actually, it wasn't. What I thought was an obsession was just part of the relearning process because I never had given so much thought and awareness to this new lifestyle and way of eating. But once the new habits became automatic through practice and persistence, I realized this is how normal people eat. This journey is full of so many emotions and thought-provoking changes that I think as you go through it, you will find there is something new almost each week to deal with.

I'll get this chapter reread in the next day or 2!

dip

[Summerlover]

Thanks Dip. I appreciate your feedback. ;)

Summer

[Jo_Pointer]

Okay, friends, I'm ready to continue forward on our journey at long last.

After my birthday-son's birthday-Easter-anniversary whirl I've landed back down on terra firma and am focused back on my weight loss efforts. I needed to take a short refresher course on the Keys to get myself realigned and caught back up. OK then...

This was an interesting chapter for me. I've had to read and re-read it about a dozen times to get all I needed to get out of it. Each time I read it something else struck me or forced me to "get real" about my eating behaviors.

First off, a couple of paragraphs in this section really bugged me:


Be aware that certain foods lead to a considerable amount of mindless, uncontrollable overating. If you eliminate or cut back on these foods, you will control your weight automatically, and live in peace with food.

This is the very first paragraph of this chapter and it put me off. While I certainly agree that there are foods that can lead to uncontrollable eating, I don't agree that simply eliminating or cutting back on those foods will "automatically" control my weight or let me live in peace with food. I have trouble "controlling" myself with chips, pretzels, ice cream, leftover pizza, and *some* kinds of cookies, so I rarely eat these or have them in my house...and yet I'm certainly not in control of my weight (automatically!!!) or at peace with food. My problem isn't so much what I eat, but rather how much I eat. Hmmph. Not a good way to start off this key. :mad:


First if you are overweight, then by definition, I know that you are malnourished. It's true: obesity--just like starvation--is a disease of malnutrition. As you read this, your initial reaction might be to wonder if I have gone nuts. But hear me out: you've been eating more calories than your body needs, and those calories have been in the form of high-fat foods, sugar-laden foods, refined foods--all stuff that is nutritionally bankrupt. You have not been eating enough foods rich in vitamins, minerals, fiber, and other healthful components, and you've shortchanged yourself nutritionally. So you see: obesity is a form of malnutrtion brought on by excessive intake of the wrong kind of calories.

I think this is really simplistic, and in my case, not true. I didn't pack on this weight eating crap...I put it on eating much too much of mostly nutritious food. Argh! :headache:

And like you, Summer, I found his stance on foods completely contradictory to the earlier key. Dip, I think you have a good explanation for why that might be, but I think he should have made it more clear. Even on his TV show he is busting people all the time for things that are in their environment, which seems contradictory to the message in this chapter. Tsk, tsk, Phil! :foot:

But I pressed on...

Here are the results of my Nutritional Assesment:

Section 1: 18 - This is a high score, but I know I could do better about varying the foods I eat during the week and eating more fruit.

Section 2: 19 - I feel pretty good about my nutrient balance, although I could work harder to include a broader variety of veggies and more fruit.

Section 3: 16 - I'm the exact opposite of you, Summer! I actually like eating gravel, sawdust, sticks & bark! :lol3:

Section 4: 8 - I'm really good at staying away from sugar. But we do eat sugar-free ice cream, low-fat yogurt or Skinny Cow dessert every night, which I think we need to break away from. It is definately a habit, not eating for hunger or nutrition.

Section 5: 16 - I feel very good about this area. We only ever have low-fat dressings, cheeses, mayo, butter, and non-fat yogurt, milk, and sour cream in our house. I don't eat red meat, so that isn't a problem, although I do like ham for sandwiches quite a bit.

Section 6: 7 - I'm not a big salter. I try to avoid highly processed foods, but do like an occasional Lean Cuisine/WW entree and some canned soups which are both pretty high in sodium.

Section 7: 5 - I love water, and always stay away from caffeine.

I don't know why, but I was surprised at his endorsement of meal replacements. I like a Slim Fast shake for breakfast every once in awhile when I'm in a hurry, so no issues here. I was just surprised. Has anyone tried his shakes? I've only seen ready made ones of his, and I don't like those, so I haven't been brave yet.

I majored in Nutrition Science, so I understand completely what he has to say about high-response, high-yield nutrition. There isn't anything new here (Susan Powter, Richard Simmons, ADA, Weight Watchers, Covert Bailey, etc.), but I do think his approach is understandable and workable. But am I the only one that thinks that HRC/HY is clunky! :stars:

ACTIONS STEPS:

Step One: Design Your Plate - I think this is a really easy and clever way for all of us to remember to eat a balanced meal at every sitting.

Step Two: Portion Control - This is my biggest problem area, and I think he had a lot of wisdom in this section. I'm currently on Weight Watchers, a program that I am committed to, and believe in, but am concerned that it has me focusing too much on food. He struck a chord when he said:

If you are trying to control your intake of a substance, even if that substance is food, you have to get your focus off it, or you'll only be fueling your obsession.

Step Three: Plan Your Meals - I think this is the clincher for me. In the past I've done very well when I've planned meals ahead of time, and I think this would help me to not be thinking about food all the time. I'm going to begin doing this in earnest and will report back the results. The following hit home:

The significance of having a well-planned food strategy is that it frees you from making last-minute decisions about what to eat, and prevents you from caving in to sudden impulses to overeat. Planning your eating in advance eliminates any doubt about what you will eat and removes your fear of losing control.
AND...

You have been living in a reactive mode, responding arbitrarily on impulse to food temptations in your environment, and the more you reacted, the more unmanageable your weight became. Wtih these planning tools, you can now program your eating behavior, rather than depend upon willpower to see you through. As long as you rely on planning, strategy, and programming, not on willpower, it will be impossible for you not to lose weight.

Step Four: Not listed. I assume it was the food plan. :?:

Step Five: Stay Real and Stay Flexible - The title of this step says it all to me! Chef Burt Wolfe has a saying I've always liked, "there are no bad foods, only inappropriate amounts." Phil says:

Realize that while no food is really restricted, you must learn to refuse those foods you don't handle well, and choose better. Acknowledge which foods are a problem for you and learn how to control them.

I have acknowledged that there are foods I simply cannot have in the house, or if I do, they have to be in small and controlled quantities. If we buy chips they are in the individual serving bags. If we go out for pizza we get a medium so there are no leftovers. I continue to have problems in this area even when I think I've mastered it, so I have to be constantly on the alert. This is a key part of my learning to "forge a new relationship with food."

Flexibility--allow for the foods you love, but don't go overboard. I need to learn how to do this. Find a balance between never having something and going on a bender. As Phil says:

Never let one treat turn into an excuse for blowing your entire food plan...Sure, maybe you stumbled, but take that setback experience and use it as a catalyst to reaffirm your commitment and strengthen your resolve to do really, really better tomorrow.
AND...

You can eat any food you want, in reasonable quantities, some of the time. It's simply a question of how much and how often.

Overall, it was a very useful and helpful chapter once I got past the parts that burned my butt! :D

What did you guys think of the food plan and action steps?

I don't think I've mastered any of the keys yet, but I'm working them hard. On to chapter 9!

Jo :wave:
------
205.2/190/135

To believe is to know in your heart that life is unfolding exactly as it is meant to. To believe is to trust that everything is going to be all right. --Flavia

[Summerlover]

Wow! Great post.

In general I like Dr. Phil and agree with him, but I think that sometimes he is full of crap! I think he can be unrealistic. Basically, I take from him what works for me and leave what I disagree with.

Summer

[diphthong]

Wow, Jo - you really got into it! Very thought-provoking post. I agree with Summer in that I take from him what works for me, and since I already had an a food plan and an environment that was working when the book came out, I haven't really given this chapter my attention. I've taken this chapter and the Food Guide "under advisement." Because my body quickly adapts to what I fuel it with and the exercise I lay on it, I'm changing things every 4-5 weeks. I have no doubt that each individual has to learn to listen to their body, it's chemistry, etc. Some folks just need a place to start, and I think that's what Dr. Phil's intentions were, KWIM?

dip

[Angel26519]

Here is the board for open discussion on

Key Five: High Response Cost, High Yeild Nutrition

Review Posts:

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33762

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38570

As a reminder please check on posts from other keys to keep the discussions up as people get to them. I want to make sure that everyone feels welcomed and listened to and also that we care. You may be able to give others insights that they need and you may also get insights from others also.

Thank you!

[Jen]

Here's my biggest problem. I like carbs too much. I love bread, cookies, crackers, cake, chips, all this refined crap that has practically no nutritional value whatsoever. When I ate according to his rapid start plan I lost several lbs over 2 weeks. It is so hard not to eat the carbs though. I almost have to eat the same thing everyday. then I don't have to think about it and when I feel like I want to snack on something healthy I would say to myself that it was not on my plan. well of course I could do this without eating the same thing everyday, I just have to plan my meals better. This way of eating really, really does work though, I just have to keep that in front of my brain and concentrate on that.

[Redskirt1]

I have been having a hard time with this. I like pasta, bread, crackers, mashed potatoes....and I am sure those are all bad.

I am new here, and looking forward to talking to others who are working through Dr. Phil's book as well!

[Jen]

Sadly practically anything that is made primarily with white flour and sugar is not very healthy. They are so totally addictive though. It is so easy to eat this stuff, it just slides down your throat without having to hardly chew!

[Redskirt1]

That's what Dr. Phil says to stay away from, the stuff that slides down the throat, taking little or no effort to eat. When he said that about burritos (like Taco Bell Bean Burritos, my favorite) I have not been able to go near one since. He just made it sound so gross!