So I just saw the Michael Moore movie "SICKO" and I'm very disturbed. I'm one of the people in the country who doesn't have health coverage and I'm wondering if I would even be approved if I did apply. Geeze--I've got to apply for health care because it's required in the state of MA. I applied last year for state coverage which is what helped me NOT in regards to my taxes. If I hadn't done that I would have had to pay $544 as a penalty to the state for not having coverage. It's ridiculous.
So now I'm wondering if the health care in Canada, England, France, etc. is really that much better. If it is then why on Earth won't we get it in the U.S.A.? So what do you guys all think? Especially Catherine and AmericaninUK because you two are Americans who are actually living in other countries. Thanks.
I saw Sicko a while ago and it was really sad to me.
I'm in Canada - I cant compare the 2 because Ive never lived in the US so I cant say which is better, but it's nice to not have to worry about health care coverage. Its nice to be able to see a doctor and get tests without being approved first.
I have relatives and friends in the US who dont have health insurance and I know they suffer because of it.
All this said, there are A LOT of private centres and clinics here that you can go to for treatment if you want to pay for it and Ive done that just to get a 2nd or 3rd opinion. I dont mind paying for that, but I would mind paying for major surgery or having to wait to get approved for life saving treatments.
Well I am a Canadian living (for the past 10 years) in the United States and I very much prefer the Canadian healthcare system, even with insurance. No one I know in Canada has said they would prefer an American model of healthcare. Socialized medicine is not perfect, it has its problems, but I would take it over the US system any day.
This is a topic that is very near and dear to me. The American health system is broken and in need of repair.
I see this from two sides. I am a medical social worker, so I see it from the provider side. I am the mother of a child that had some serious health issues, so I see it from the patient side as well.
As a provider, you aren't even able to treat the actual needs of the client without "asking" insurance if it's ok. Since when did some insurance company know more about a patient's true needs than the doctor? The insurance company can dictate what tests must be run in what order? Why even have a doctor? If a patient doesn't fall in with "the norm" it can take months to get procedures or tests approved, if ever approved.
As a patient, I have a good job with good insurance. I have a child that has run up some very substantial medical bills. He has never met the level of care to allow me to get any assistance with his care. How can a child have over $100,000 in medical bills every year since birth and not qualify? If I would have quit working and accepted Medicaid (which I was advised to do at one point) only then would we have been able to get some financial assistance with his care. At 20% and with 5 years of surgeries, tests, and hospital stays, you can see that a single mom of 3 can't even begin to pay for this. I have been advised by an attorney that worked FOR THE HOSPITAL to file medical bankruptcy. My son's illness has ruined me financially. I attempt to pay what I can when I can and I have attempted to work out payment arrangements to pay off some of the bills. I called to set up payment arrangements with one provider and was promptly sued for the entire balance. I can't buy a house or even a car without someone to co-sign. People will tell you that "they" don't look at or consider medical bills...I can tell you that "they" do.
As a social worker I know how to get help, read bills, and find solutions. I feel for people that are trying to get through this with no medical background at all. I have caught numerous billing errors and have battled insurance companies for hours on end. It has hit a point at times when I just gave up and let the bills pile because I felt helpless. No one should have to go through this simply because someone gets sick. I honestly believe that 80% of Americans are a significant illness away from financial ruin, and, until it happens to you, you don't realize how screwy the system is.
our system here is a mess and it will be what brings America down. I know several families where dad has lost his jon and they could not afford to buy insurance AND pay their mortgage, car/gas, food, etc so they are gambling dad will be employed again before anything major happens.
When I was on vacation in Italy I got very ill and needed treatment asap. They sent 2 Dr's to my hotel to treat me- not medics but actual Dr's who came w/ IV's & everything- they basically brought the ER to me. There was some follow up care and my total bill was $8 (including the medication they presribed).
I understand that they pay a higher tax rate but I feel like they also have a higher qaulity of life in Europe (big generlization I know) and if we actually add up all we do pay here my guess is we are pretty close. I am a high income earner who can buy good insurance but I would give that up to see everyone else get insured, too.
My husband and I, until about 4 years ago, took our healthcare for granted, because we always had good paying jobs, with good benefits. Then I started having a lot of health problems, and both my husband's job and my job were suddenly both in jeapardy, because of my health problems.
I hadn't exhausted my sick leave (but my company made it very clear that my job was in jeopardy because of attendance and "performance" issues - I admit I wasn't able to do my job very well because of some of my symptoms, I was doing the best I could, but it wasn't good enough). My husband's company (while they would never admit it) fired him because he was taking off work under FLMA to take me to doctor's appointments. They assigned him a bunch of work to do over a scheduled shutdown - work he could only do with his computer in his office, but during the shutdown they told him he would not be allowed in the building because of maintenance issues (they'd always let him come in during shutdowns before). So basically they assigned him an impossible task, and then fired him for being unable to do it (I saw all his performance reviews, and every single one was outstanding, even when they fired him for not doing the task assigned, it was never documented - we probably had a legal case, but we were facing a bankruptcy and with everyting going on, it just didn't seem worth it). He got a job in a factory in Wisconsin (a much cheaper area to live) and I applied for disability.
Only a few months after I got disability, my husband fell on the ice and tore his rotator cuff very badly, and the fall and recuperation aggravated the degenerative bone condition he inherited from his mother (doctor's predicted he'd be on disability by 30, he made it to 35).
As horrible as the circumstances were, the timing, I have to admit was very lucky, in that we didn't have to ever be completely without insurance. Now, we're both on Medicare. I may eventually be able to get my conditions in a partial or full remission, and be able to get back to work. My husband's condition is degenerative, and he could end up in a wheel chair. We're grateful for Medicare, but there are large gaps, holes, and "traps," to medicare. The whole process is so confusing. Even our doctor said "good luck," because when he tried to help his own mother with her Medicare, he gave up and handed it over to his billing department, because he couldn't make heads or tails of it. I have a master's degree, and my husband worked in human resources, and we've decided it's written to deliberately confuse.
I don't know what undereducated and senile elderly do. There are resources for help - but you need to know they exist in order to find them. Any of the numbers in the medicare booklets result in you sitting on the phone for hours just to have you leave a message that they will call you back (and when they do, you probably won't be home, and they'll just leave a number - the same one that's always busy, for you to call back).
Prescriptions are a nightmare. And the commercials on tv make me heartsick. One is from Walgreen's that tells medicare patients that medicare pays the same amount regardless of where you get your meds, so you should choose Walgreen's. What Walgreen's isn't saying is that they charge more for your meds (sometimes twice as much, or more), so your money doesn't go as far. We learned that the hard way, as I ran out of prescription drug coverage after only 50 days on Medicare ($2500 for the whole year, this year it's $2700). Luckily that was in September and the new year starts in January, but for three months I went without about half of my medications. If it weren't for the doctor giving me samples if he had them, and helping me find alternative drugs that were cheaper (some didn't work as well, and some had more severe risk of dangerous side effects, such as being harder on the liver and/or kidneys). We found that by switching to Sam's or Walmart pharmacy, we would save more than 400 dollars a month. We also learned that Walgreens has a "cash price" for medications, which is often half what they charge insurances (they call it a cash discount, but it sure sounds like insurance fraud to me), but Walmart and Sam's were still cheaper.
It's been a nightmare. I never had to do without required medications before. The stress and fear was a complete nightmare. Some good came out of it (we went two weeks without my being able to afford my NSAID pain reliever relafen, and we didn't have even enough spare change to buy ibuprofen, aspirin, or naproxen, so I did without. I hurt like ****, but my all of my asthma and most of my allergy symptoms disappeared. I learned that I don't have asthma at all, I was just allergic to NSAIDs (and probably aspirin). There are worse things than pain, and not being able to breathe is one of them. I was able to discontinue 4 more medications as a result, which saved us/Medicare an additional 400 dollars per month.
Medicare doesn't cover dental work, and finding a dentist who will allowo a payment plan is virtually impossible (the few who do have waiting lists of 2 years or more). I need some dental work done fairly badly, but we don't have the money for it, so I've been putting it off. My husband has a high school friend who is a member of our church and a dentist, but I'm even afraid to go to her, because I'm ashamed to admit our situation. It's bad enough telling a stranger you're not really sure how you're going to be able to pay them.
My brother-in-law (who is african american) has had a heart defect all of his life, and had been "treated" in hospitals since he was small, but his family was poor and couldn't afford the surgery the doctors said he needed. It wasn't until he had a great job with great medical benefits that he could see the doctor of his choice and finally found out the truth about his condition. One hospital even told him they had "fixed" his heart with surgery (there was an incision, I visited him in the hospital), after he got the good insurance he discovered that he had never had repair surgery - rather it was a diagnostic procedure.
No doubt there's no record of anyone telling him he'd been "fixed," so there's no point in suing, they'd just say he must have misunderstood.
There definitely is a different standard of care for the well-insured, and the not. My husband and I discovered it with one of his specialists, who decided to drop him after he went on medicare. They didn't list that as the reason (because they can't accept some medicare patients and refuse others, they must refuse all medicare patients). They argued it was over an unpayed bill (we were paying consistently, and the balance was smaller than it had ever been before, in fact, only about $200, and they said we'd have to pay that in full and pay all future appointments in advance, before they would accept him back as a patient - for a doctor who charged $400 for each visit - we chose to discontinue working with the specialist).
Even though this post sounds whiney - I'm really not complaining about how "unfair" the current system is to us. We are the lucky ones. We have the mental and social resources to be the best served by medicare. We find the information, because we know where to look, or keep asking until we find it. The people I'm most concerned for, are those who are undereducated, mentally challenged, mentally ill, or experiencing dementia (particularly premature dementia, as there are few if any resources for dementia cases for those under 55). If the system was so difficult for us to navigate, what about the people without our skills and resources?
I've had a lot of people argue the "evil's" of socialized medicine and the money it will take out of everyone's pockets, and usually they argue that there is "charity" health care out there for those who need it. The facts are that most of those programs already have spent their money three months into any year (and everyone else is out of luck), and most people don't know the programs exist, so they don't apply for them (and hospitals cherry pick who they will help, and it sometimes seems that they are quite racist and classist in who they decide to tell about the programs). I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't see or suspect such things when I was just another well-paid, well-insured, upwardly-mobile, white woman.
I have medical insurance.... BUT I also have 2 special needs kids. Trust me, I still have HUGE medical bills that I cannot pay. My kids get denied for treatments and therapy's that they need, because the insurance company denies them or sets limits. Not to mention I pay $300 a month in premiums. I can't really afford it, but I definately can't afford not to have it either! My credits ruined all because of something that is outta my control. Canada please!
I too recently watched that movie...WOW...it made me want to pack up the kids and move!
When they said they get doctors who come to your house...TO YOUR HOUSE!!! ...and they have no hospital bills...no one is being sued by a hospital or told they cant get treatment....they said satistically they live longer....I can believe that just because of the lack of stress!!
MY opinion:
Rich people, like congressman, dont want to socialize healthcare because they will take a loss in higher taxes, and if they have investments in insurance companies...also some doctors may not being able to charge as much. I think socializing it would be a wonderful idea. Not everyone is broke enough to get medicaid or rich enough to pay for coverage at their job, which the cost of is rising. I am willing to pay a few extra dollars to help out my fellow citizens of the united states....after all shouldnt we all be in this together???
I didn't have health care coverage until recently and I say it is worth it even if you get just a basic plan! I thought it would be hard for me to get insurance. I'm in NJ and I applied for the EPO Plus from Horizon Blue Cross and Blue Shield. Cost is $296.87 a month and it is worth every penny so far as I have many doctor visits down the road. I applied and voila, they accepted my application and it was so easy. However, I think that isn't the case for many people unfortunately.
I still do not have dental coverage and my plan is only basic, but you know for me it is a step in the right direction. It is expensive and I can see how a load of people out there cannot afford even the basics of health care coverage! I was one of them and even now I'm struggling to pay it! I have restrictions on my plan, but at least it is something. However, with other people who have more serious issues it makes me sick that they cannot get the help they need. It shouldn't cost so much money for a friggin' kid to get help! I mean at some point it has to be about the people don't you think?
I haven't seen this movie, I shall look for it.
Last edited by Jacquie668; 03-16-2009 at 12:53 PM.
Wow! I can't even begin to fathom what some of you are going through. I just think it's ridiculous that we are all put under more stress than we need to be because someone gets sick.
People shouldn't have to worry about losing their homes or putting food on the table because they get sick!
There is just something so wrong with that. Like I said, I live in MA and I am supposed to have health insurance. They passed a law that said all residents have to have health insurance or we will lose our state exemption on our taxes. Well I can't afford the 25% of my pay that it will cost to get health insurance and when I applied through the state I was turned down. Luckily I had applied last January so because of that instead of having to pay the state $544 I was able to get an awesome refund of $84. Anyway, keep the stories coming. I'm sure that this is something that all of us have an interest in.
I live in Canada and am Canadian. I know my taxes are higher than they would be in the states because of public health care and that's fine with me. I would rather know that no one will go to a hospital in critical need and be turned away because they don't have coverage. Our tax and medical system is far from perfect and in many areas we wait a long time for diagnostic tests. But it's reassuring to know that I will have the attention I need even if I don't have a job.
Yeah, all of my psych and soc classes say that medical bills and being uninsured is the #1 reason for homelessness in the USA.
I'm an American that spent six years over seas in Bosnia and England. Socialized medicine is not perfect. The hospitals my dad had to visit in the UK were sub-par when compared to the US ones in terms of equipment, upkeep, and in some cases cleanliness (the UK had carpeting in their hospital rooms which really caught us off guard and gave us a hint of the heebie jeebies) and when I was in England (for four years, two years ago) there was a big spark in deaths related to hospital bug from bad hygiene, air circulation and cleanliness.
Sometimes the wait to finally get in to the doctor can be weeks in some areas, very hard to get same day or even same week appointments. You may not get all of the attention that your ailments require. The competition for standards and quality of care are nil. But still, I'd go back to it in a heart beat.
Right now, for myself, I have insurance because I'm under 23 and a military brat. The insurance is crap, they're very good about giving a very bad run-around, and every time I see an off-base doctor I have to go through three months of fighting with Tri-Care about how yes, I do have a referral from my primary care physician, and yes, I am unwilling to pay out of pocket for their refusal to look at the correct paperwork I've faxed to them twelve times. (At least it HAS always worked out in the end...). But I'm still thankful to have it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do after my 23 years old cut off date - but I have told my boyfriend we're waiting to get married until after it - just so we can both have medical insurance (he's native and gets it for free anyway)
This seems like a really rambly post but it's five am here and I'm at work, so sorry for the rambly bits!
I'm also Canadian, and didn't really realize how bad it was in the states until I went a spell without independant coverage and had to travel to the states and buy temporary coverage just in case. Here if something happens we just go to the doctor, or hospital, or walk-in clinic... no real thought as to who pays or how it's paid for. My grandfather had a mild heart attack in San Diego many years back and the bills that they sent him were just shocking (he was covered by travel insurance, but it was still shocking to see the actual figures). There are good things about both systems though which adds to the frustration on both sides, living in a border town I could cross the border and get an MRI months sooner than here, but it'll cost me. Our doctors are extremely short on time and often miss things because of their time restrictions. I think it's good that the American health care system is now in the spotlight and hope that those working to better it get some results soon.
I live in the UK and am a higher rate tax payer, so I pay a good amount to support our Health Service currently far more than I take out. However, I strongly believe in socialised medicine and having a safety net for the elderly, poor, chronically ill etc. I've seen Michael Moores film and feel it is a sad indictment that the USA is the ONLY industrialised nation that does not have a system of universal health coverage. Whilst in the US those who can afford good insurance may get a better standard of healthcare than is available here on the NHS, I am sure that for those on low or even average income our system provides a better level of healthcare.
I pay no money at the point of access for any of mine or my family's medical needs (dental and optical are a different matter). Prescriptions are free for my children and only around $10 per item per month for me and my husband (regardless of the cost of the drug).
The stories about hard-working, decent people being made homeless or bankrupt to pay for healthcare needs of themselves or their children are truly horrifying to me.
Sicko--
I'm one of the people in the country who doesn't have health coverage and I'm wondering if I would even be approved if I did apply. Geeze--I've got to apply for health care because it's required in the state of MA. I applied last year for state coverage which is what helped me NOT in regards to my taxes. If I hadn't done that I would have had to pay $544 as a penalty to the state for not having coverage. It's ridiculous. 
Anyway, keep the stories coming. I'm sure that this is something that all of us have an interest in.
