Oboegal, rockinrobin and shmead - I hope you all took this as a friendly debate. Sometimes I wish there was a little more debate on this forum (you know - friendly like, where people don't take anything personal - of course, that doesn't really happen on the internet). It seems sometimes some one says something, some one disagrees and then everyone walks away. Which can be good - none of us wants to have arguements - but THIS thread has really got me thinking. I have gotten to see different points of view. I got to read a back and forth discussion. And it give me more to comtemplate as I continue my weight loss journey. (which, in case no one has noticed, has been a very emtional and mental journey for me so far) I hope it helps you guys, too, and that you don't see me as an instigator!
If I were the OP, I'd ask this expert when they are going to start treating obesity as an addiction.
I'm going out on a limb here, but I would venture to say that 95% of the OBESE population is addicted to SUGAR and sugar products. Most people are obese not because they have some deep rooted emotional problem, not because they were abused, or beat, or any awful thing, they are obese because the are chemically dependant on sugar. They CRAVE it. Like a skinny person who chain smokes CRAVES nicotine. If we expect some specialist to be able to help us we might as well keep dreaming for the miracle pill. You can't beat an addiction until you are ready to help yourself. It's the nature of the beast. I personally think too many people are still trying to blame science/the medical community/doctors...when they should be blaming C & H.
And as far as society looking down on us. WELLLL, in my area, the smokers the drinkers the junkies and the sluts get just as much ridicule.
I don't think any of us CHOSE to be fat. But I think our society looks upon weight as something we can and should control.
Scaver, I absolutely, positively do not look at you as in instigator. You are most definitely entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, as is every one else here.
Though nothing that's been said here can change my mind and nothing will ever change my mind. I still firmly believe that we choose to be fat and that we do have control over it. In my mind, there is no debate. I'll go a step further and disagree with you so strongly that we can't control our weight - I'll say it's a fact that we can. That is of course just my opinion .
Like I said, this was a key for ME - the exact opposite of what you said - Realizing that I was choosing to be fat and therefore I could choose to NOT be fat - so in actuality I did have control over it. That was indeed my very first step to taking charge and managing my addiction.
I hope that someone that has read this can see that and find the same empowerment that I got when I discovered this.
Heck, I'll go a step further. Maybe, deep, deep, deep down I always knew it, but used it as an excuse to not change my behaviors. I'm not certain.
Discussion is good. The more we delve, the more we discover, the more we grow.
I think I agree with Lori Bell. About what to ask the expert, and in general. That's why going off or lowering sugar drastically will often work for people. I'd add that sometimes it can be a fat/salt or fat/sugar combination.
If it's me vs. brownie, I will ALWAYS lose. Always. So I keep out of their way unless it's under strictly controlled circumstances. There were brownies at work the other day. I had one. It was fine. I didn't want to be seen getting another one. So I didn't. If they'd been on a plate at home, whole 'nother story.
I know about nutrition; it's not lack of knowledge. I can tell you fat grams and calories on just about everything that comes into my purview. I eat healthy most of the time. It's the sweets (and occasionally fat/salt/carbs) that get me. But sweets much much more often. You have to put yourself in situations where you have control or arrange to have it. For me, it just can't be in front of me at home
SCraver, I think this has been an excellent thread and I think the discussion has been respectful and thought-provoking.
I think it would be great if there were a medical subspecialty in which doctors *really* knew about the ins and outs of weight loss (and maintenance) in the way that some of us do. But I'm cynical enough to worry about the possibility of doctors getting certified as "experts" based on the conventional low-fat wisdom, which I consider to be pretty barbaric.
I think rockinrobin is definitely right that successful weight management is a very individual thing. I feel extremely blessed that I found a formula that works for me, but I also take credit for the initiative and perseverance it's taken to make it work. But I also had to have enough orneriness to decide that some of the traditional weight-loss advice simply doesn't apply to me.
I think rockinrobin is definitely right that successful weight management is a very individual thing. I feel extremely blessed that I found a formula that works for me.
Okay, and I'm reading this and I'm shaking my head back and forth - no, no, no - you didn't merely stumble upon a formula that works for you...
And then I read the next lines... and I stopped shaking my head no and started smiling and nodding my head up and down in agreement..
Quote:
, but I also take credit for the initiative and perseverance it's taken to make it work. But I also had to have enough orneriness to decide that some of the traditional weight-loss advice simply doesn't apply to me
Cause' that's exactly it... At some point you will have to MAKE something work... and from what I've seen from any one who's lost a substantial amount of weight and kept it off, it's a compilation of many programs and ideas... and LOTS of thinking outside of the box.
Brutal honesty... Extreme desire... Effort... Creativity... Dedication... Determination... Perseverance.. Persistence... Willingness... Willingness and more Willingness....
I think it would be great if there were a medical subspecialty in which doctors *really* knew about the ins and outs of weight loss (and maintenance) in the way that some of us do. But I'm cynical enough to worry about the possibility of doctors getting certified as "experts" based on the conventional low-fat wisdom, which I consider to be pretty barbaric.
Ooo! Can I tell my Dr story? So, years ago, I go to the gyno. I had a bacterial infection - which might sound like TMI, but I wanted to point out that I was there because I had a problem and didn't feel well. So the over weight gyno who I had never seen before starts to tell me I need to lose weight. She then goes on to lecture me about how I should eat half a sandwich for lunch and half for snack later on. Looking back, this makes me laugh. I never eat sandwiches anymore! Bread is too many carbs and calories with limited fiber. She didn't ask me what I ate or if I was trying to lose weight or anything. It was just... unhelpful. Half a sammich for lunch? I would be so hungry.
Now I have a new gyno who I love. She says to me at my last visit: "let's talk about what would be a healthy weight for your height" (or something along those lines) That is when I told her about my running, strength training, eating veggies and seeing a therapist. She got really excited and asked for my therapists info because she thought that was excellent. And we talked about a 5k that was coming up... She runs and eats healthy and is clearly at a healthy weight.
BUT I am the one who woke up one day and realized I needed a therapist to help me through the tough time I was having at the beginning of this year (I have since stopped going). I am the one who figures out where to work in my exercise. I am the one who plans meals and dinner for my family. So I guess rockinrobin is right. It is all in my control. I did this, I can undo it. I guess I just don't want people to judge me for being fat. I HONESTLY did NOT know I would get AS FAT as I did. Or in as BAD of shape as I was. And when I realized I needed to DO SOMETHING - I didn't know what to do. I thought I would have to work out like a crazy woman and be hungry all the time. My first big diet change was switching from white to wheat bread (didn't even know there was WHOLE wheat bread out there - I was just eating "wheat" bread)
Oh god... I am rambling.
Can't. Stop. Myself.
Now, I have realized that there is no magical solution out there. No magical pill. Not even a magical food plan. I can't pick some cleansing diet out of Woman's Day and think it is the answer for me. (hahaha!) I have had to work hard at educating myself about foods and exercise. Quinoa? Barley? What are those? You mean there are other ways to cook veggies other than just in the microwave with butter and salt? You mean I don't have to exercise for 3 hours a day... or even 1?? MSG does WHAT to the body?!? I should poop HOW MANY TIMES a day!? You mean if I don't like a food, I might be able to cook it differently and find I DO like it?
I'm not saying to not seek outside help. Absolutely not. Find whatever it is YOU need to get the job done. Whether it's a nutritionist, WW meetings, a psychologist, a any one or anything.
My point is that none of those options are much good. A nutritionist has a B.A. at most, and in many states, no certification at all.
Quote:
The difference is, is that your are the vehicle here. You are the transmission. And you are not a machine. You're a whole lot more complicated. You're a human being.
For right now, barring WLS, there is no medical intervention. There is no surgery to do on the brain that would take care of this. There is no pill. There is no magical solution. Yes, it would be nice if there was, but I'm not sure if there ever will be.
It would be great to call someone, but really, what could they tell you. "Get out of the kitchen, take a walk, eat a yogurt, take a hot bath, drink some tea, do some mediation, call your best friend". And I believe that is available if you desire it, to some extent at least.
Right, so if a machine needs a specialist, so much more a human being. A doctor--a skilled, knowledgeable professional---could have told me to try 1) starting at 2000 instead of 1200 calories and that I would still lose weight that way 2) lowering my carb, and especially my simple carb intake 3) exercise gradually because even intermittent, low-impact exercise can burn measurable calories. 4) Explain to me exactly how my PCOS interacts with weight.
I don't expect a weight loss doctor to give everyone a one-size fits all solution any more than an oncologist treats every case of lung cancer the same, or a lawyer writes every will the same, or a teacher teaches every child the same. I want someone--a knowledgeable professional--who could have helped me find the method that works best for me by making suggestions and guiding me through different approaches. Right now, we have to plow through all the BS on the internet to figure out what really can work and then find out what works for us. It's like the wild west out there and it takes a lot of sophistication to know what to trust.
I think it would be great if there were a medical subspecialty in which doctors *really* knew about the ins and outs of weight loss (and maintenance) in the way that some of us do. But I'm cynical enough to worry about the possibility of doctors getting certified as "experts" based on the conventional low-fat wisdom, which I consider to be pretty barbaric.
This is why it needs to be board certified, with a 2-3 year residency where you read all the available literature and end with a very difficult series of exams over what's known. Also, once something is board certified there comes to exist a community of doctors who talk to each other and learn from each other. Ten years of this would really improve our knowledge of weight loss technique.
I think this would also solve the insurance problem, because if there were a board-certified specialty, the doctors would bill as specialists. Right now they bill at GPs because that's what they are.
Obesity is such a complicated issue. You all have given me so many things to think about.
I wonder why the medical community itself hasn't pushed for a board certified specialty especially if the potential for more money (insurance) is there??
Imagine what they could do...
BTW, I saw a documentary on a woman who did have brain surgery to control the area of her brain for satiety and appetite. She had a sort of 'pacemaker' implanted.
Regarding the medical issue-- what really bothers me is that within the medical community, weight loss is treated almost like an impossible dream.
I was just looking at an in service distributed to the entire hospital community about how to treat obese patients, and one of the statements in this document, was that "it is almost impossible for a morbidly obese person to lose weight through diet and exercise." This is a document that is distributed to doctors and nurses in a hospital.
I have to say that we are the winners-- the special people who have figured out how to draw upon mental and emotional resources, and swapped into, and cobbled together stuff that works.
But it is also true that there is MUCH more genuine knowledge about weight loss kicking around 3FC than there is at the average doctor's office.
And A LOT of that has to do with the fact that there is a pervasive belief within the medical community that diet and exercise don't work, and there is also NO MONEY in treating obesity, except in the surgical treatment of obesity.
I predict that in the next ten years there will be more focus on obesity treatment and there will be some successes. I think obesity is an important health problem and deserves a coordinated treatment approach. Right now, nobody will pay for that.
OP: I have a question for you ~ "When is there going to be a concerted effort by the medical establishment to find more ways to help people get their weight under control through diet & exercise?"
UBERGIRL ~ our local doctors have the same attitude here; they believe and say exactly what your document says, so their only advice to people now is to get WLS ... but my previous doctor was different -- he was a real health nut and truly believed that if I ate the right foods, in the right amounts, that I could get my weight under control again, and he encouraged me to do so. He also told me that he thought that I was probably already "an obesity expert" myself ...
ROBIN ~ I hear ya; and also love your advice, but I was wondering this one thing -- and this is not meant as an excuse or anything like that; but, I wonder if some of us go through some rough patches in life that lead us to erroneously believe that we don't have control over our eating, so we give up. Then when something prompts us (ill health, pain, etc) to take notice of what we are doing to ourselves -- then we wake up, and start to take some action towards regaining self-control. We definitely didn't want to be obese; we didn't want to overeat; we didn't want to get and be fat. So what we need is places like 3fc's; and supportive doctors & therapists who will help us realize that it CAN BE and IS under our control to change; and that we can be healthier once again.
ie I kept losing weight and gaining it back: when some turmoil or stress would come into my life, I inevitably turned to food for comfort and numbed out. In that sense, it was like a drug: an addiction. The weight came back on so fast that I almost didn't even notice it until my clothes didn't fit anymore. I felt totally frustrated that I did all that hard work, only to regain it and felt defeated & disillusioned.
Now I know what I did wrong -- so there was a lack of knowledge there on my part. I was ignorant of this one fact ... that I MUST make PERMANENT CHANGES to my eating and lifestyle choices for long-term weight-loss success. Thank goodness I now realize this.
Also, I do find it more difficult now that I am older simply becuz my health was worse from the excess weight; so I would say to you younger ones, to GET IT UNDER CONTROL NOW -- don't wait until you are in your 40's or 50's and have piles of weight-related health issues to deal with ... DO IT NOW!!!
Last edited by Justwant2Bhealthy; 10-30-2010 at 01:55 AM.
We've had the "virtually impossible for a morbidly obese person to lose weight by diet and exercise" line in the UK too, and this is in a system where the worry about 'are they trying to wring money out of me by pushing surgery' is not normally the case ~ health trusts are constantly having to deal with 'one person's WLS means no cancer drugs for another' scenario.
I think the "virtually impossible" statement is shorthand for "to lose weight PERMANENTLY". Very many of us here are wonderful at losing weight, we should be, we've done it so often! :S A lot of us are very bad at keeping it off.
All of which means that as well as correct nutritional information from kindergarten onwards - which I think is the primary key - we also need a huge investment in looking at the reasons why people choose not to change their obesity.
Right, so if a machine needs a specialist, so much more a human being. A doctor--a skilled, knowledgeable professional---could have told me to try 1) starting at 2000 instead of 1200 calories and that I would still lose weight that way 2) lowering my carb, and especially my simple carb intake 3) exercise gradually because even intermittent, low-impact exercise can burn measurable calories. 4) Explain to me exactly how my PCOS interacts with weight.
I don't expect a weight loss doctor to give everyone a one-size fits all solution any more than an oncologist treats every case of lung cancer the same, or a lawyer writes every will the same, or a teacher teaches every child the same. I want someone--a knowledgeable professional--who could have helped me find the method that works best for me by making suggestions and guiding me through different approaches. It's like the wild west out there and it takes a lot of sophistication to know what to trust.
Quote:
My point is that none of those options are much good. A nutritionist has a B.A. at most, and in many states, no certification at all.
Shmead, of course I agree with you. I think we are basically in agreement, we're just stating it differently - semantics. The nutritionist, WW leaders, etc.. AREN'T good options. This is my point as well. This specialist doesn't exist. We are on our own. It's up to us.
If you ask me this *obesity* specialist should be someone who's been there, done that. A BA would be nice, but nothing can replace real life, first hand training. And STILL that may not be enough. The bottom line will ALWAYS be us. A professional may tell you to try this and this and this, but if that person isn't willing to try it and SEE IT THROUGH... it's useless information.
Look at all the great advice that is meted out here at 3FC. It varies greatly. With all the different methods and approaches that all the big losers here at 3FC have used to help themselves. Many of us at times give detailed posts as to what we did to help ourselves. And unfortunately people don't heed that advice.
Of course I think some people would benefit more (much more) if that advice came from a professional, where accountability would also be involved. Weighing weekly, closer monitoring, weekly pep talks, going over menus and how to improve those menus, talking about tips and strategies, meal planning, shopping tips, eating out strategies, how to deal with holidays, stress, social events, the whole bit, working on the head game - pointing out how worth it is, speaking about NSV'S, the future, the importance of it all, etc.
Quote:
Right now, we have to plow through all the BS on the internet to figure out what really can work and then find out what works for us.
And Shmead, you said you would have liked a professional to have helped you sort through the approaches and had to resort to the internet - there you have it.. You were so determined that you didn't stop till you had YOUR answers. This professional doesn't exist, yet you FOUND your answers. Yes, I'm not arguing with you, but that professional doesn't exist and it didn't stop you.
Justwant2behealthy,
Quote:
I wonder if some of us go through some rough patches in life that lead us to erroneously believe that we don't have control over our eating, so we give up.
YEs, 100%. So many of us (I was one of them) believe that we simply don't have the control. That we lack it. that we're not capable of it. That it's a flaw in ourselves. That's why I was so upset when it was stated that we don't have control over our weight. We have got to, got to, got to realize that we DO. Regardless of our circumstances and boy can those circumstances be rough sometimes, we STILL have control of what goes into our mouths and what doesn't.
Quote:
I kept losing weight and gaining it back: when some turmoil or stress would come into my life, I inevitably turned to food for comfort and numbed out. In that sense, it was like a drug: an addiction. The weight came back on so fast that I almost didn't even notice it until my clothes didn't fit anymore. I felt totally frustrated that I did all that hard work, only to regain it and felt defeated & disillusioned.
Lots of people do this. We've got to learn OTHER methods of self comfort. Ones that are truly comforting. Because we must learn that over-eating is of NO comfort other than a few minutes. A temporary (non) fix. Because when that food is gone, where's the comfort? Certainly not in ill fitting clothing. We deserve long term comfort. Mediation, long walks, reading, journaling, whatever it is. You've got to be the one to find it.
We've got to learn to separate our food from everything else. We eat what we eat. It's got nothing to do with events, situations and what not. Especially for the addict such as myself.
And the weight DOES come back on fast. Daily weighing though would have helped you realize that faster than waiting for your clothing to not fit you. It's a wonderful maintenance tool. You can't deny the numbers on the scale then.
Quote:
Now I know what I did wrong -- so there was a lack of knowledge there on my part. I was ignorant of this one fact ... that I MUST make PERMANENT CHANGES to my eating and lifestyle choices for long-term weight-loss success. Thank goodness I now realize this.
Well, yes, it IS about permanent changes. Hop on over to the maintainer's forum. Maintenance is almost identical to losing. You'll hear it over and over again.
Last edited by rockinrobin; 10-30-2010 at 07:44 AM.
My biggest beef with the medical community is the way they blame EVERYTHING on being overweight. I dropped my internist like a hot potato after I went to him wheezing and he told me "don't you wheeze all the time anyway"? I found a new doctor who diagnosed bronchitis. Many of them don't even bother trying to find out what is wrong, oh you are fat, next patient. I have found the same type of treatment where they will tell a woman "it's stress" and for a man they dig deeper to find out what is wrong. My husband and I both had terrible gut pain for months, I was told stress, he was scheduled for more tests. I ended up with a blocked bile duct due to a gallstone. His just went away on its own. Double standards.
Sorry for the rant, but I feel better now LOL. The "experts" should talk to those who are real experts, the success stories on this forum.
. 
